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8:04 AM
....I have better things to do, but I just wrote up a list of all the tabletop RPGs I've ever tried, sorted chronologically by first date played.
Gamers are only outclassed by doing improbable, nonsensical, data-related crap by writers, and only then because writers end up on watch lists.
@BESW I'm curious. How long is the list?
> 1. D&D 3.5e 2005
2. Mage: The Ascension 2005
3. Stargate SG-1 RPG 2009
4. Dogs in the Vineyard ~2011
5. Dawn of Worlds ~2011
6. D&D 4e 2011
7. My Life with Master 2012
8. Fate Accelerated 2013
9. Fate Core 2013
10. Dresden Files 2013
11. Roll For Shoes 2013
12. Aeon Wave 2014
13. Cthulhu Dark 2014
14. The Princes' Kingdom 2014
15. Dresden Files Accelerated Beta 2014
16. A Penny for My Thoughts 2014
17. Microscope 2014
18. Atomic Robo 2014
19. Lady Blackbird 2014
20. Lasers and Feelings 2014
21. Do: Pilgrims of the Flying Temple 2014
Huh, you never tried 5e?
If you're gonna play a D&D it's often best to stick with 4e
8:10 AM
Nope. I dropped D&D in early 2013, and have no particular interest in playing 5e except for the experience of a session or two if I can find a pre-made that showcases its strengths.
Which for everything else it did or didn't do, is probably the only D&D that doesn't constantly lie to you.
If I ever want to go back to D&D mechanics for a long-form campaign, I'll probably just use 13th Age.
yeah, I am pretty cool with 13th Age too
I loved 4e but it actually did have some balance issue at later levels
I've never tried 13th Age.
@Nyoze it's surprisingly like D&D except it is missing a lot of the stuff I hated about D&D
with some interesting things added in too
8:12 AM
As for 4e... I haven't tried it, but I've heard mixed things. It doesn't seem to be popular with people who like the mechanic heavy gameplay.
like, I am not even talking it up, it is pretty great for someone sick of 3.5, for example
I'll have to check it out one day.
@Nyoze this is ridiculous
I love mechanic heavy gameplay
@Nyoze [snerk] That's exactly the group of players who liked it best in my personal experience.
4e was fantastic for that
4e was not popular with people who felt like the classes were too samey
8:13 AM
Yeah, that's...
technically, in my oppinion, people who thought a lot of the things that made 4e unpopular didn't actually bother to delve into it enough
4e got hit on a few major fronts. Some people accused it of not feeling like D&D because it attended to balance issues. Some people felt it was too mechanical because it did not attempt to (poorly) simulate a game world
now if they disliked some of the balancing, I could agree with them
Some people, myself included, didn't like the setting changes that were done as part of its fluff, but that's not exactly the fault of the system
@Lord_Gareth I liked Points of Light, but I can at least accept that
8:15 AM
And some people, also myself included, didn't like how WotC dragged 3.5 behind a shed and put two rounds in its skull to make room for 4e
Maybe I need to give 4e another go then.
@Lord_Gareth I mean, again, I kinda started to hate 3.5 a bit by the end of my run with it, but I can still respect that thought process XD
@trogdor Love it or hate it, there was no good PR reason to discontinue PDF sales
@Nyoze what was your first go with it?
Which is the reason people went to Pathfinder instead
8:16 AM
For me, 4e being not D&D 3.5 was a major reason I tried it. I came to appreciate it for itself later.
@Lord_Gareth oh I agree with you
And also consequentially the reason we live in a world where Paizo is our industry leader
in fact,.... they did pretty much an exact parallel thing to 4e when they came out with 5
@BESW I also get why you don't want to go back to it, by the way
even I might actually prefer 13th Age if given much of a choice or a reason to go back to D&D stuff
but even then, the reality is that I have been pretty spoiled by my eyes being opened to the sheer range of choice in tabletop RPGs available
Sometimes, though, you just want to portray a person who's made the questionable career choice to have more lethal combats per day than meals.
We get a lot of our mindless violence kick from one-shots of Great Ork Gods.
8:27 AM
Great Ork Gods can get that stuff done faster and more efficiently than D&D
aaaaaand I don't give a flying monkey if my character dies
in fact it's more entertaining if they do
wheras if that happened in D&D I would flip my lid
8:58 AM
@trogdor Does this list seem incomplete or inaccurate?
um what was Mage: The Ascension again?
maybe that and Dawn of Worlds you played without me
I played Mage in college, and Dawn of Worlds... I think maybe that was just Geoff and Ben and Matt. It was a not-very-successful play-by-email game.
ok, for Princes Kingdom, I could have sworn we played Pilgrims of the Flying Temple first
@BESW oh that definitely sounds like I was not in it
@trogdor Ah, yeah, I'm mostly guessing with the sequences inside the same year.
Dog Eat Dog I also was not in, but doesn't seem wrong in terms of timing
Dungeon World same thing
and the rest of that was so recent you got it right practically automatically XD
seems right
nothing that sticks out as missing
9:06 AM
...actually... I can probably pinpoint a lot of those dates just by searching this chat for mentions of each system.
off the top of my head all I could do was say " pretty sure we played this one before that one"
9:26 AM
[flails] WhatsApp is down.
9:42 AM
@BESW You have the strangest memes
@Magician I think you mean "best"
@BESW is WhatsApp what you use for business?
(it is like, the main way I talk to co-workers)
Then again, it can't be a meme if no one else uses it. Just... Image macros pretending to be memes. Weird!
@Magician I think he gets them from the History twitter thing he likes
so actually,... within at least one community it is
memes are tricksy like that
@trogdor I use it for business and social communication.
10:00 AM
@BESW Now do last session played!
Ever see a meme that's just a bit off? The image is different for no reason, or it's used inappropriately? Look out, might be a memec.
It's all your fault, somehow
user image
Don't encourage me
Okay, then... [rummages]
I'm not sure if that's better. Now I'm curious as to what else you got.
10:14 AM
@BESW fair enough, technically some of it is social for me too, but mostly still with some of my co-workers
@trogdor Pretty much a cross-section of UOG contacts and Baha'i contacts, for me.
I don't like it as much as skype or discord or this chat
but because some groups I have been part of, mostly my current job and some of the classes I used to take, I have it and use it to talk to specific people
1 hour later…
11:43 AM
@trogdor I hit you up on Skype with a suggestion for tomorrow.
12:02 PM
@BESW no new RPGs in 2006 to 8?! no Werewolf & Vampire? No Call of Cthulhu?
@Trish Nope. I probably spent a total of six sessions on non-D&D games from 2005 to 2012.
@BESW just for the try, get yourself at least CoC and take a look at their system. Not because it is good or overall perfect, it just has some points that are qite good.
Oh, I've got CoC 6th Ed on my shelf. I consider its section on play expectations to be most excellently clear and precise.
I just have no great interest in BRP as a system to play.
I've played 35 different published systems and system variants; I own over 400.
Actually I was referencing the sanity ideas - not perfect, but a good idea if you want to push players into some direction
There's a decent chunk of the RPG landscape that I've read but haven't played and don't really intend to.
The best sanity-as-number mechanic I've seen is Cthulhu Dark's.
Though with a very small tweak, Shadowcraft's magic would make for some awesome Mythos ritual mechanics along the lines of CoC's sanity-for-power concept.
But I'm overall skeptical of the Mythos's approach to mental health in any form. Lovecraftesque handles it well, but that was part of the game's sales pitch.
12:11 PM
I didn't see L5R in your lis... I guess you looked at it and found its system or background lacking?
Had some friends who liked it, I was never engaged by any of their descriptions. Moved away from D&D-likes before I had the chance to give it a chance again.
Read a D&D 3.0 book that seemed like it was supposed to be a port of Rokugan? Can't recall.
I have played only a bit of CoC and desperately wanted to include some sort of sanity tracker into Apocalypse World at first. The game at the time had a move "Open your brain" for which a little loss of sanity would've been the perfect failure consequence. Later on, they added psi-harm, which is essentially a short loss-of-sanity -like effect, and works for some situations.
@kviiri I feel like AW might benefit more from a Cthulhu Confidential style of sanity tracking.
But while I still like the idea of internal demons screwing with the players' heads, nowadays I think it's best done with the player's collaboration.
Much more customized and narrative-focused, not a numerical stat.
12:16 PM
"You go crazy and shoot the dog" is less fun than "you go crazy and the dog starts looking really, really evil to you. What do you do?"
Except I don't use the term "go crazy" except in caricature.
@kviiri Ah, yeah, then you might really like Shadowcraft's approach to magic.
@BESW Asian Adventures or what it was called?
@BESW Sounds way better than "second hit bar" approach
Shadowcraft a Fate game where PCs have magical connections to stone, or animals, or shadows. You can draw on that power to do magic of the appropriate type, and you roll to control it (difficulty based on what you're doing). No matter what you roll, the magic works the way you want it to. Always.
Another favorite of mine is making a character who fumbles in the psychic maelstrom become a prophet. Involuntarily, of course :)
12:19 PM
But if you fail the roll, you get to describe how the magic powers coursing through you make you less human and more like the source of your power. You're encouraged to make it awesome and beneficial, like getting armor-tough skin or gaining a superb sense of smell.
You remove these effects by doing things which remind you of yourself and your humanity: hanging out with friends, meditating on your purpose, doing your hobby.
If you get too many of them at once... your character loses their sense of self and becomes an NPC or disappears into the magic entirely.
@kviiri In Cthulhu Confidential, lasting narrative effects are represented as short blurbs describing the specific thing. They might include a mechanical benefit or drawback like a penalty to a certain kind of roll, but sometimes they're just narrative statements. However, they can get so bad as "If you still have this at the end of the adventure, you die."
(CC is a one-player-one-GM game so characters don't really die mid-adventure; if you're going to Go Mad From The Revelation, you can still hold it together long enough to solve the mystery--but you're slowly unraveling.)
@BESW This is actually quite similar to a homebrew playbook concept I had earlier - a metaphorical ghoul who grows not on carrion, but on embracing their own humanity.
@BESW Sounds like a good idea, particularly for 1-on-1 but why not elsewhere too :)
There are a lot of systems where I'm like, "I don't really want to PLAY this, but I'm totally going to yoink your ideas for my games."
(I actually enjoy Cthulhu Confidential, but I want to use its engine in non-horror games.)
1:07 PM
Now I have the urge to write AW playbooks and settings but I should be writing my seminar paper :(
@kviiri how goes it?
@DForck42 Putting the pro in procrastination, as usual :P
@BESW that's interesting
@kviiri nice
1:24 PM
Only a week and a day until your big day!
1:34 PM
1:59 PM
@BESW i decided on that recently: i'm never going to play west marches, but i want to yoink part of its structure: players choose what they want to do during downtime, then GM responds by constructing something to let them do it. it'll be useful for, say, adventure guild play.
as opposed to the GM spending downtime constructing something for the players to do.
@Lord_Gareth now with how they handled 4e at the advent of 5e, i can understand how those people might have felt.
@doppelspooker I do like that idea
I'm also thinking of maybe starting a thing here in central Missouri, in a couple of years
make it more structured, use my flgs connections, etc
good luck!
it'll be something
@doppelspooker There was a significant difference, I felt. As WotC were unveiling 4e, they published a series of articles explaining which design problems they tried to address with the new edition. Many of those issues I agreed with, so 4e was a welcome change. And yes, some felt they were saying how terrible 3.5 was just to sell 4e.
i've also been contemplating starting a gamign convention here in missouri
as far as I am aware, there are none in the midwest
2:04 PM
However, with 5e there were no explanations, no reasonings given. 4e was simply swept under the carpet. And it had issues to address!
@BESW Wait... have you never played LLKM? Or are you not counting it as an RPG?
2:37 PM
@Magician oh, so, they actually acknowledged the prior edition's existence in that scenario? :P
sounds like they just did worse for 5e then
"here's a great new game! let's market it exclusively from holders-on to much earlier versions, while completely ignoring the current version's very existence and refusing to acknowledge the various improvements we took from it and while going back on many others without explanation. also for good measure, let's delete basically all the web content we ever made for that version."
@doppelspooker they also did that for a lot of 3.5 content as well when the forums went
A LOT of useful content was lost
I'm unsure why they didn't at least archive the forum and made it downloadable
Yeah, that seems to be a pattern for them.
nothing earns customer loyalty like continuously alienating each prior group.
the dnd side really needs a better pr person/staff
mark rosewater does such a good job on the magic side, I wish they were as open on the dnd side
@DForck42 i have low opinions that there's as much to be open about
2:50 PM
@doppelspooker shrugs
magic the gathering has some super rigorous design put into it, founding mechanical principles, etc. D&D historically seems to be held together more by spit & a prayer, with most content generation being arbitrary and mostly judged based on comparison to previous content generation. 4e had formulae to use and still most of its development was arbitrary, "whatever felt right".
i guess they could at least be open about that though
@DForck42 Are you familiar with RoboRosewater? It's a neural network that generates MTG cards. Most are ridiculous, some are impressively balanced. It has a twitter account.
@MikeQ maro himself is forbidden from ever reading roborosewater :)
@MikeQ lol, no. I mostly dropped out of the magic culture about 6 years ago
@doppelspooker lol
@DForck42 So did I, around a decade ago. Yet the cards are still amusing.
2:53 PM
@MikeQ I'm still subscribed to a MtG subreddit, but I rarely look at them
I do find the design of magic fascinating, and maro does a good job getting a lot of the details out there without revealing too much of their secret sauce
i just can't do magic anymore. it's too expensive.
and it's player base can be pretty heinous to be around
I still have the collection somewhere. Most of them are from 7th ed to the Kamigawa block. A friend of mine gave me some more recent cards in college, but MTG has a power creep problem and I couldn't compete.
I have a friend who is leaving Magic... at times he sounds like he's giving up the best thing in life and at other times he sounds like he's very relieved as if kicking off the worst drug addiction imaginable.
@MikeQ the power creep from 7th edition to Magic 2015 was pretty serious, but i think it's since slowed down
they also changed how standard block rotation works now
it's LESS static than before, lol
@DForck42 it's totally true, as well. they're not allowed to see unsolicited designs, and roborosewater is 100% that. :)
@doppelspooker nice
2:59 PM
@doppelspooker Wait, so their minds don't get polluted by third-party property or what? oO
@kviiri it's to avoid potential IP lawsuits
I see
if i send them a design and they use it as-is, technically that's still my design, they didn't buy it from me, i didn't license it to them, they've violated my copyright and i can sue them. even appearing to have done this can be grounds for me suing them -- if i publish a custom card on my blog, and i know one of their design team frequently reads my blog, and they produce a card that looks like my custom card, i can still sue them.
i might lose the case, but they'll have to spend a lot of money on their legal team to see it through, or lose a lot of money on even a modest settlement.
wow. so, back when return to ravnica and theros were in standard, there was roughly 1250 cards in standard. there are currently just shy of 1400 cards in standard O_O
@DForck42 yeah they did away with the concept of small sets.
3:03 PM
@doppelspooker That's... dubious. Game mechanics are not really IP, from what I understand. Hence all the games using similar mechanics.
oh, nevermind, one of those sets isnt' out yet
that'll be what's in standard come january
Hehce also 3rd party supplements being plublished now to be "compatible with 5th edition of the fantasy rpg".
@Magician individual card designs were the basis of MTG suing another collectible card game maker for IP violations. game mechanics are not IP, but assembling a specific card with its own characteristics is a unique creation.
this might have been the case: polygon.com/2015/9/25/9399821/…
Okay, yeah, that was the exact case. They sued on the basis that not only did Cryptozoic use their game mechanics, they used an awful lot of them, many of them, including exactly recreating a great deal of thoroughly iconic cards with minimal difference.
"Copied the overall plot, elements, theme, mood, setting, pace, creatures and sequence". Not individual cards.
@Magician Well, I don't know what to tell you. Not seeing unsolicited designs -- ever, any of them -- is WotC's policy. It's standard to avoid seeing unsolicited submissions in the games business so as to avoid apparent conflict with IP law and avoid lawsuits, and to have a very open policy of refusing unsolicited submissions so as to sandbag against any appearance of having used any.
3:10 PM
@doppelspooker basically
i've also avoided hearthstone for many the same reasons why i won't go back to magic
I haven't really gotten into those, I'm not very interested in competitive gaming I guess.
I like e-sports being a thing, though.
the older i've gotten the more i tend to like cooperative games. that's not to say that i don't enjoy the occasional competitive game, but i find it more fun to do things together
pandemic is a good example
@DForck42 Pandemic, aka cooperative losing?
@DForck42 Pandemic is simultaneously one of my favorite games and an absolutely horrible one. I love playing it, but it requires the right people to do it.
@kviiri It requires luck. Lots and lots of good luck.
3:18 PM
@MikeQ Well, that too, on harder settings.
Have you ever played the board game Eldritch Horror? That's a pretty well-balanced cooperative game. A bit of luck, but mostly strategy.
No, but I've played Arkham Horror and Mansions of Madness quite a lot.
Losing is less bad than having a poor experience, and since the game is essentially a single-player game where the "player" is a group of 2-5 people, it can get rather bad if not everyone is as experienced or strategic as the others.
@kviiri I think they're made by the same publisher, but they're very different.
It's a race against the clock (by turns, not real time), and the dice-based randomness factor can result in difficult situations. But unlike Pandemic, the randomness is based on statistics, and I feel like the players have a greater degree of choice. I strongly recommend it.
@kviiri we got it for my birthday, and the first time my fiancée and i played we lost in 3 rounds, lol
i also am liking competitive games where your interactions are limited with other players. for example power grid. you share a board and resources, but it's a lot harder to crowd out and cut someone off than, say catan
@DForck42 We once lost during the first round, but we had misread some rules regarding how the deck should be shuffled :P
3:27 PM
@kviiri lol
One thing I both love and hate in Pandemic is how the game often ends with a very elaborate and hyper-optimized plan to cure the final two diseases or something.
one houserule that i've made, to make the game a bit more winnable, is being able to trade cards a bit more freely
but even with that it's still hard to win
One of my favorite moves is, as Generalist, to play the event that allows one to change any player's character. I changed mine to Contingency Planner, draw four event cards from the deck and spend each instantly, and finally redraw the reassignment card to change myself to something else :)
and pandemic is funny in that, the more players you have, the harder the game is to win
because you still have a clock, but now each individual player has less individual turns, and the teamwork has to be a lot tighter
@DForck42 One houserule we've been using is that everyone has two character cards. They still play only one character, but have the powers of two classes.
We don't do that all the time but it's a nice change for the usual routine.
3:34 PM
@kviiri interesting
@kviiri Does each person take two turns?
3:53 PM
@MikeQ No, they just have the special powers of two different characters.
it might get weirder if one of the two character roles is Pilot, which is the only one I know of that severely reduces the character's ability to perform normal actions (but makes up for it in other ways)
@kviiri So they've got more choices, but not more actions.
@nitsua60 Yep.
Or better choices :)
They get an extra action as usual if one of those characters is Generalist, of course!
3 hours later…
7:00 PM
so, Wish is supposed to basically be the most powerful spell in the game. so then, why is it pretty common for DM's to want to "punish" players with what they wish for?
Wish defines an explicit whitelist of "safe" wishes and notes that wishes beyond that realm of defined safety are potentially risky, which is the "why do innocent people who read this spell behave this way" answer.
The more detailed/historical answer is "Gygax enshrined some really garbage ideas about the relationship between a GM and their players and our hobby's culture is still gripped by his undead hand"
@Lord_Gareth lol
and i get that a wish can be risky, but it seems that a lot of people get delight in completely corrupting the intent of a wish
which to me seems very adversarial of a dm
Sure. A lot of people get delight in being an adversarial GM
That's what GMs were for a really long time
To the point where many OSR systems still refer to a GM as a 'referee'
Even games that traded their sales on not being D&D, like Vampire: the Masquerade, made the GM out as the bad guy to be overcome.
It's a super awful way to think and play, and it's freakin' everywhere.
In a related story welcome to RPGs, where we have cultural problems no one wants to talk about.
@Lord_Gareth lol
8:02 PM
@Lord_Gareth Testify! claps hands
@Lord_Gareth And conversely, to this day we also have adversarial players.
@kviiri true
One of my major RPG player pet peeves is the type that knows nothing about railroading except that it's bad and keeps pushing against any perceived session agenda from the GM :<
i tend to find social questions fascinating. ie "i had x problem, how do i talk to said person". i also find their answers fascinating
@kviiri lol. it's a spectrum. a little is good, a lot tends to not be great, and none can lead to a boring game
@DForck42 Yeah, overall it depends on the system and the type of game desired. A DnD 4e game is much harder to run well off the rails than a Dungeon World game, for instance.
One of our players is a particularly rail-averse guy and he has been GM'ing a short minicampaign for us with no prior experience of mastering. He has had major trouble because he wants to come up with content for every situation we could wind up in. It's not easy...
@kviiri yeah... that requires some serious imrpve skills to pull off
8:10 PM
Yeah, it gets particularly bad if one really account for the possibility of the players being as chaotic as the GM would like to be :)
"Uh oh, they might attack the town guard here... better make a stat block for them"
@kviiri i mean off the top of my head: ac 15, +4 to hit, 1d10 dmg
12 hp
^ Exactly. The GM could just estimate stats. Although for a town guard, 12 HP seems a bit low. And 1d10 dmg means a +0 strength mod.
It's not particularly easy for a novice GM
It's not as hard in 5e as it was in 4e though.
In other news, the casual drinking problems of my nation are being amusedly inquired about on Skeptics.SE skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/39825/…
8:34 PM
Certainly casual, but why a problem?
@MikeQ Well it's usually not as a happy affair as the images would have them show.
To be clear, it's not just drinking a beer or a glass of wine at home alone, it's drinking heavily at home with the intent of becoming drunk. It's not exactly healthy
Ah, I didn't realize the quantity. Is it a common/widespread issue?
Alcoholism in general is a bit of a national condition here, and drinking at home contributes to domestic abuse incidents
Which aren't thankfully too common
Some really cool words were suggested for the "Suomen Sana" (word of Finland) contest, eg. "fillarikommunismi" (bicycle communism) which refers to the modern urban left wingers who are advocating for better bicycle and public transport infrastructure :P
I didn't realize that was an issue. I assumed that most Europeans bicycled everywhere.
8:49 PM
It's pretty common, but there has been a recent backlash in terms of ideological blocks.
Bicycling is associated with environmentalism, environmentalism is associated with value liberalism, and value liberalism is associated with stuff like gay marriages, vegetarianism and feminism that some of the traditional manly men find abhorrent... so some people have taken to hating bicycles because they oppose something else entirely :P
@kviiri people think in the weird ways...
@DForck42 Yep. At least it's just a vocal minority.
9:08 PM
@nitsua60 Hmm, I guess I wasn't really counting my own designs?
9:28 PM
Q: Has how we want to use our “pan-edition” D&D tag changed?

SevenSidedDieFor questions that are scoped across any and all editions of D&D we have the tag dungeons-and-dragons for that (among its uses). Twice in two days I've noticed questions about monsters across D&D editions and tagged with dungeons-and-dragons being voted closed as “unclear” and comments asking fo...

@BESW I might check it out then, it seemed easily available.
@Shalvenay, how is your law campaign coming along?
I am reading the Laxdale saga right now, and there is a law case starting up, and I had to think of you.
@Anaphory i learned most of my ability to cook by watching good eats
I pretend to have a decent idea how to cook, and @BESW seems to have as well, so this would be more a philosophical endeavour tha a textbook learning experience :)
I wonder if there's an AW hack for Yakitate Ja-Pan style bake-offs...
9:43 PM
@Shalvenay I mean, there are cases mentioned all the time in the Sagas, and sometimes how they depend on interpretation (the other component is politics, not investigation), but the inheritance case at the drowning of Thorstein sticks out, because it's about in which order people died (they drowned with a single witness) and how that relates to inheritance, and that seemed to me to maybe transfer in structure.
@kviiri Fate has Uranium Chef.
> The characters cook the bread using sheer anger and the power of their burning passion.
@BESW I was being facetious when asking the question, but at the same time I knew in my heart you'd have something like that for me.
Urgh, I have a dilemma of "maybes".
I've invited people from my both regular RPG groups to try out Apocalypse World in a one-shot, the idea being I'll have one or two sessions depending how many people sign up. At the same time, I've asked a few extra people outside these two whether they'd like to join. And now I've got so many "maybes", I'm not sure whether I should ask more yet...
It can be disappointing to be solicited for a game and then there's no room after all :<
10:01 PM
Once or twice I've invited a LOT of people to a game and told them that there were a limited number of slots and it was first-come-first-seated but later folks were welcome to observe and return for another game later if they liked it.
Also, for certain systems and groups it's totally possible to run a single session with a much MUCH larger group than I'd ever want to run long-term.
I'm rather uncomfortable running AW for groups larger than five, but it's something I might want to try later. This is not a very opportune time though - I'm trying my best to put on an excellent show.
I think the biggest group I've ever run was about nine, with almost as many again observers.
This is the first time most of the participants experience a narrative-oriented game system.
I was the only person present who'd ever played that system, and almost half the players were brand-new to tabletop RPGs.
(The system was Roll For Shoes, which definitely helped keep things from bogging down.)
@BESW Eh, you're right. Life's too short for worrying over whether everyone will fit. I'll just be honest and ask them but also let them know we might have issues with fitting everyone.
Besides, I can probably run a third one-shot if need be.
10:08 PM
I think it's beneficial to start out the way you intend to continue: that includes setting an example that the GM isn't expected to be some super-capable being who can craft perfect experiences all by themself; they need the support and cooperation of the rest of the group and unexpected things will happen.
@BESW I honestly should not be surprised by this anymore, but that's seriously wise stuff you say there.
Aw, thanks. It's hard-won learning from painful experience, so I'm glad whenever I can help others skip the rough bits in their own journey.
I've been the GM who thinks it's his responsibility to create a perfect game experience, all on his own. And I became a lot happier when I started treating my fellow participants as active collaborators instead of a passive audience.
@Anaphory has not started yet. it does have the potential for starting in a mini-me form with a small group in the not-so-distant future
@Lord_Gareth It's a way to play and think, and I think it's awful if it goes unexamined, but I find it a completely valid playstyle if understood and desired all around.
@kviiri If I had a generic rule of thumb for this, it'd be something like "Don't hide your concerns from your fellow participants; instead ask them for help." And I'd apply it to players and GMs alike.
(And, hopefully obviously, it's about anything relating to the group, not just about specific gametime concerns. If attendance is a concern, or the kind of snacks, or the nature of jokes, or whatever, that's all part of the group's experience.)
10:25 PM
@BESW although at the same time -- it can be hard to air one's concerns when the fellow players are not grasping what's going on....
Yeah, it involves developing communication skills.
And in my experience, it's easier if you do other things with the group that are totally unrelated to RPGs, too.
@Shalvenay What system are you going to run the law game on?
@kviiri it may wind up being D&D 5e
@Shalvenay Ultimately, I've found that the crucial ingredient is a group of people who are willing to believe each other's feelings even if they don't understand them.
10:35 PM
@BESW which interacts really poorly with someone who when confronted with something larger than table-scale, wants to apply the tools of large-scale, rationalist/bureaucratic ethics instead of trying to make their limited understanding of communal tools work by partitioning the larger environment into many smaller, overlapping ones
@Shalvenay Isn't DnD a rather poor fit if the main focus is not going to be combat?
@kviiri Sometimes the system the group is comfortable with is the right system, regardless of whether there's a better system for the story.
@kviiri the law arc is one of several
with the other arcs providing stronger combat opportunities
@Shalvenay Ah, I see. I was under the impression the campaign was going to be all about legal action.
@kviiri nope. the party will be fighting the Big Bad(s) on multiple fronts
10:51 PM
@doppelspooker yep, my thoughts exactly
I hate that business model idea "lets just artificially kill an older product to make room for a new one"
doesn't sit right at all
@trogdor it's called planned obsolescence
yeah I get that, doesn't make it feel any better
hey there @eimyr
how're things going?
hey there @lthz
11:10 PM
@trogdor Yeah, although I think the generally bad reception 4e had might've had a part in that.
that is a fair thing to charge too
though it upsets me because I think a lot of 4e's bad rep came from people not bothering to look into it due to it not being similar enough to other editions :/
4e suffered a bit of a New Coke fate.
New Coke Fate: an Evil Hat setting about exploring all the worst parts of 80s nostalgia.
However, the fact that Fourth Edition was the Fourth edition of D&D indicates its summary replacement can't be laid solely at the feet of its poor reception.
Perhaps 4e's memetically poor reception is part of why 5e's publicity materials rarely mentioned 4e and instead mostly spoke about 3.x and previous editions. But it's not like 4e didn't itself supplant 3.5, to the extent that Wizards stopped selling 3.5 PDFs when 4e came out.
11:25 PM
@BESW Hm, this is a good point.
The only reason 3.5 seemed to survive through 4e is... well, Paizo.
Wizards' d20 licensing choices allowed the system to survive in third party products long after Wizards themselves abandoned it. They held 4e closer to the chest, so when Wizards stopped doing 4e nobody could take up its torch.
I was just asked to be a long-time friend's bestman
Weird things happen at 1:30 AM
Also, 4e fell victim to over-elaborate planning.
@kviiri Grats!
@BESW Thanks!
11:32 PM
@BESW I almost see 4e as Wizards needing to "build one to throw away" in the words of Fred Brooks
There was a rather good idea regarding 4e in this chat, that maybe they should've released it as "DnD Tactics", as a sort of spin-off franchise.
Although, while that would've created a better environment for the game to be accepted, it probably would've been a bad move in short-term marketing. There's plenty of people who will buy "the latest edition of DnD", just like there's people who will default to buying the new Civilization or Assassin's Creed or FIFA. That convenient default behavior might not activate if it's a spin-off, not a direct successor.
@Shalvenay I was actually meaning, they originally pitched 4e as intimately tied to a proprietary online Roll20-style platform. That platform never materialized, but 4e was designed and rolled out with artefacts of that plan in place. Among other things, this meant that when Wizards stopped supporting 4e, it was a lot harder for gamers to keep playing it with their purchased materials, because many of us were relying on subscription-based online tools which Wizards stopped supporting.
@BESW ah, yeah, that is a problem as well
Compare 3.5, where even the few digital tools they did release were downloadable programs rather than cloud-based subscription tools.
11:50 PM
@UrsulaV @KBSpangler @mightymur @ksonney dystopia is lacking, and lizard horses are definitely one of the things it lacks
@LaMistemper @Jenetikitty @UrsulaV @KBSpangler @ksonney I fully subscribe to the potato theory of anatomy The body is all the same thing All the way through Like a potato
@lauowolf @LaMistemper @Jenetikitty @UrsulaV @KBSpangler @ksonney That's our explanation of the Dungeons and Dragons hit point system. Unlike, say, Runequest which has a chart for every body part...
I have a friend who thinks the simplistic damage system is a major shortcoming of DnD. Having played Dwarf Fortress adventurer mode, I don't agree :P
I agree with both of you. [grin]
I generally find any kind of numeric representation of injury to be lacking.
I prefer descriptive injury mechanics.
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