TRPG General Chat

Shalvenay

01:34

hey there @MikeQ

Mike Q

Roll for initiative @Shalvenay

Shalvenay

:P

how're things going?

Mike Q

Not bad. Studying and/or getting distracted by campaign writing. I had some good ideas that I want to experiment with, and I'm noting them before I forget.

Shalvenay

@MikeQ ah. mind sharing, or are they top sekret?

Mike Q

Sure, but some background first. When writing stories, I really hate the cliche of cosmic world-ending threats. Especially for tabletop games, when you're dealing with a small group of player characters. There should never be the question of "Why are we alone fighting the super-powerful villain, and not with the help of united armies of all the good-aligned kingdoms?"

Shalvenay

01:46

@MikeQ yeah -- part of one of the campaigns I have been stewing on has the party recruiting allies to their side to face the Big Bad

but, continue

Mike Q

So my primary villain isn't aiming to dominate, destroy, or otherwise fundamentally alter the world in any way. He's just kind of a bully who has picked on the players a few too many times. His biggest defense is political connections, rather than magic or powerful artifacts. The idea is that the players hate him for personal reasons, rather than out of obligation to save the world.

He's also smart. He doesn't have a castle where everyone can see it, and he doesn't have to show off by appearing and delivering some contrived monologue

Shalvenay

hahahah xD

Mike Q

And how did he become a hated villain, you may ask

Did he burn down a village? Did he assassinate a beloved king? Did he send an army of orcs to attack some city? Did he summon a dark god from the ends of space?

Nope. All he did was steal the players' money. Twice. And that was it.

2

Shalvenay

:P

Mike Q

Because I realized, players are naturally driven by self-interest and a desire to have powerful characters. So simply interfering with their progress is significantly more motivating than the cliche imposed "you're the world's only hope" plot.

Shalvenay

01:58

heheheh

Mike Q

Anyway, the first time the players can really get back at him is by playing his game. He's scheduled to get something that he wants, so the players get the chance to interfere. Specifically, it's a promotion that's similar to dukedom, managed by a council of evil-ish world leaders, and the PCs will show up as surprise guests and try to humiliate him.

Shalvenay

@MikeQ hahaha

my mind comes up with strange scenes -- your mention of orcs invading a city had my brain going to a scouting party of Uruk-Hai seeking out a city in the fog, only to find the city's railyard first and get splattered all over the place because nobody saw them sneaking in

Mike Q

Oh, I was just listing tropes. The villain didn't do any of those things.

Shalvenay

I know :p

Mike Q

So that's the part I'm trying to write. Each council member is distinct, with their own values and priorities. The players will have to do some research (i.e., asking around) in advance, and then utilize that knowledge to manipulate the council members to vote against the promotion.

The tricky part is establishing this council beforehand. Otherwise it would seem like these new NPC characters come out of nowhere.

Shalvenay

02:05

ah

Mike Q

The council members are individually famous, and some of their names have already come up. But as for how to manipulate their votes, that's not necessarily obvious.

Shalvenay

sounds...intriguing

Mike Q

Example: One of the council was temporarily an indirect antagonist. He tried to kill the PCs, the PCs demolished his elite guards, and so he backed down. So I'm hoping the players figured out "This guy values strength and brute force".

For context, none of the council are good-aligned or lawful-aligned.

And of course, later on the campaign, there's a point where PCs will probably get a final showdown with the villain. So that should be satisfying.

Mike Q

02:21

For now I'm just brainstorming on possible challenges that break away from combat grinds. I'm trying to design some puzzle/challenge that incorporates knowledge of these council people. Like, maybe some NPC will offer something in exchange for scandalous information, and in the process the PCs will hear a lot of rumors.

Shalvenay

@MikeQ xD

Mike Q

And then so the challenge is... critical thinking? To figure out which rumors are false and which are likely? I don't know. Do you have any suggestions @Shalvenay?

Shalvenay

@MikeQ hrm...trying to logic-puzzle out what's correct and what's wrong maybe?

Mike Q

It should incorporate their characters' skills and features somehow

Shalvenay

02:41

so...I'm kind of wondering how someone as...systems-focused as I should approach urban intrigue as a campaign theme/conceit...

because ISTM that the whole urban-intrigue conceit is really based around power politics, and that's a domain I don't intuitively grasp (my political mindset being very issue-driven -- it matters far less to me who's in power and far more what they're doing)

any thoughts?

or is taking an issues-based approach to urban-intrigue just fine?

Mike Q

02:55

I don't know what you mean

Shalvenay

@MikeQ nvm I suppose

Mike Q

Maybe be more specific? What kind of "urban intrigue" did you have in mind?

Shalvenay

@MikeQ high-drama stuff, with the party in the thick of it -- assassination attempts, chases, etal, perhaps with some high-society stuff mixed in as well

Mike Q

Sure, those can be interesting. What do you mean by "intro-driven" where these events would not fit?

BESW

I know it's not easy for you, but a technique that helps me a lot is to identify some media or combination of media that embodies the kind of game I want to play.

That gives me something to analyze and compare various systems and settings with.

Shalvenay

03:08

@MikeQ issue-driven -- although I think I see where my problem is, actually

Mike Q

Typo, sorry. What you might want to do is tie in the intrigue's consequences into the issue-driven aspects that you are more comfortable working with.

For example, the villain wants to achieve X, but first they need to eliminate some well-protected powerful leader, who would otherwise interfere with the villain's goals

Shalvenay

@MikeQ people focusing on manipulating other people through blackmail, intimidation, etal to do what they want

or just eliminating obstacles to their agenda

vs being motivated by raw, naked power

(or lust, and whatnot)

BESW

So, actions driven by a desire to make a change in the world rather than by a desire to improve one's own circumstance?

Shalvenay

@BESW yeah, exactly

Mike Q

Well, that's easy to work with. Putting oneself in a better (political) circumstance means they have more ability to make those world changes.

Shalvenay

03:17

@MikeQ yeah, but many people aren't going to be directly maneuvering for power in this focus -- instead, they'll be trying to influence others

lobbying, intimidation, bribery (or campaign contributions ;), blackmail, etc etc

has a bit of first-hand experience with poking congress-critters

BESW

I'm thinking of Good Neighbors, though it's not a great fit.

BESW

05:09

Reminder that your fantasy world doesn't have Steve.

BESW

08:49

Hmmm. Trying to come up with a good idea for a Halloween one-shot, preferably in a system/setting we haven't used yet.

I might try InSpectres again.

(Was going to run it for Christmas but scheduling fell through.)

Mike Q

09:10

@BESW What's the age range of your players?

BESW

Mid 20s to early 30s

Moloch whose love is endless oil and stone! Moloch whose soul is electricity and banks! Moloch whose poverty is the specter of genius!

Tweeted by HowlTweeter on October 12, 2017 at 8:00 AM

Mike Q

Call of Cthulhu is simple enough for a one-shot

BESW

Eh, if we're gonna do something in Mythos it'd probably be Cthulhu Dark or Lovecraftesque.

Mike Q

09:25

Maybe a WoD module?

BESW

We usually go for stuff that doesn't take a whole session to create a character.

(Otherwise it's not really a one-shot.)

Mike Q

You could pre-make characters for them

BESW

Hmm. Maybe the new Trenchcoats & Katanas beta has a shorter character design time.

BESW

09:40

My group isn't usually very interested in 'traditional' games like WoD or CoC.

BESW

10:09

Welp, I found somebody's villain origin.

OWNER: I can relate. When the dog died, my husband started to try and develop a neural net that will power a robot to torment the cat.

Tweeted by UrsulaV on October 6, 2017 at 4:39 PM in reply to UrsulaV

BESW

10:34

(Also I invited them to chat.)

trogdor

wait what?

the same person?

BESW

VTC too broad

Whoops, first message timed out, second message went through.

trogdor

ooooh ok

wait though, ok I am consfused

is this the same person in the tweet or is it just someone who posted something?

BESW

I meant to post the VTC request, then say I invited that poster to chat.

But the VTC request lagged.

trogdor

ah

ok

I thought you grabbed someone from Twitter to come into the chat

Mike Q

11:24

Connecting the PCs? Wouldn't that be part of the game's story?

BESW

11:51

@MikeQ There are many game systems which give some way to establish the PCs' relationship to each other prior to the first scene of the game proper.

For example, as part of character creation Straw Boss has each player describe parts of their childhood together and say which other PC had an impact on each scene they describe--and then the other PC's player adds some details about that scene from their character's perspective.

Not every game starts with the PCs as strangers.

In The Princes' Kingdom all the PCs are siblings.

Aeon Wave has each player say how their PC shares a past with another PC--prior employees in the same company, perhaps.

Many Fate and Apocalypse games have a formalized section of character development like that. In Monster of the Week you get a set of questions about another PC based on your chosen playbook, and you pick one of those questions to answer.

Bubblegumshoe assumes that the sleuths have already solved a couple cases together before the game begins.

Dogs in the Vineyard doesn't explicitly say the Dogs knew each other before they began their mission, but they were all trained in the same place at the same time as part of the mandatory backstory of the setting.

Misspent Youth has Friendship Questions that you ask each other before each story.

The self-admittedly problematic How We Came To Live Here has a rather interesting if over-complex Village Web which ties PCs to each other and their communities.

Even Katanas & Trenchcoats, which is about angsty loner immortals, has a Ties That Bind section in the delta playtest.

And then there are games like My Life With Master, or Hot Guys Making Out, or Lady Blackbird, which are about exploring and changing the pre-defined relationships between PCs.

Mike Q

12:14

@BESW I don't recognize most of those names. I simply meant, the premise of how the PCs know each other, that seems like something the GM can decide at the beginning.

BESW

Sure, you can just dictate it by GM fiat. But there are a myriad other ways to do it.

And for games where the GM isn't the alpha and omega of narrative adjudication, you want something else.

BESW

12:36

In other words, there are many games where the GM doesn't have the authority to tell players what their characters' relationships are.

And even for games where the GM can, the querent is asking about mechanics for creating or expressing those relationships.

Shalvenay

13:03

hey there @nitsua60

Shalvenay

13:26

and hey as well @Magician

doppelgreener

14:19

Does any D&D 5e player without the taxonomist badge want to claim the as yet uncreated lost-mine-of-phandelver tag? (Here's a search; pick a couple and tag 'em.)

Shalvenay

@doppelgreener wilco

doppelgreener

@Shalvenay 👍

There's at least a couple of other adventures without a tag that I've also come across: rise of tiamat, curse of strahd

Shalvenay

@doppelgreener I think I'll spread the badgers around on those

doppelgreener

@Shalvenay my thinking was let different people claim different tags so there can be some new taxonomist badgers on the site, yeah. :)

(not every tag's as likely to produce one of those, so it's sorta first come first served)

Trish

15:17

got an odd "VTC" thing: someone claimed dulicate, but didn't list a link of which it is a dupe... rpg.stackexchange.com/review/close/40275

or... it didn't show yet

Shalvenay

@Trish it shows for me

Trish

It didn't a minute ago

doppelgreener

0

Q: What happens when a grappled character's grappler gets pinned?

My character was grappled by an opponent. An ally joined the grapple to help me and succesfully pinned the opponent. What happens to my character? automatically freed from grapple, i.e. no longer grappling automatically succeeds on next grapple check no effect: still have to succeed on next gra...

phew, that's some title

grapple grapple

Mike Q

Somebody get the flowcharts @doppelgreener

doppelgreener

15:36

@MikeQ [comes hurrying in with a large bundle of poster-size pages]

Shalvenay

17:19

hey there @Zyera

hey as well @Anaphory

Anaphory

Hey there!

Shalvenay

how're things going?

Anaphory

Good! Quiet Sunday.

Shalvenay

alright here. mulling over campaign ideas, still

Anaphory

How is the Law-focused idea coming along?

Shalvenay

17:33

still trying to work out how far to take the worldbuilding on that one

(mostly regarding the Elven legal system and code)

Mike Q

That's a lot of detail, are you making everything from scratch, or just going for the highlights?

Shalvenay

@MikeQ going to have to make most of it from scratch -- building a gov't from the Constitution on up

Anaphory

But do you have a basic idea on how to get the players to say interesting things about interpreting laws yet?

Shalvenay

@Anaphory yeah, not sure on that one either. it may be best to make it into a NPC-selection quest instead of having the party be heavily involved in that arc

Anaphory

Aw, I thought that was a core thing you wanted them to do, and I would have loved to hear how you do it.

Shalvenay

17:41

@Anaphory well, I'd like for it to be a core thing, but I'm not entirely sure if it's possible without making the campaign unpalatable to most players

Anaphory

How fixed are you to a traditional existing world, as opposed to having the players join in the building of the legal system (which might be more interesting than just interpreting the legal system you have pre-defined) and finding, making and abusing the loopholes in there?

Not that I know how that might be achieved

Shalvenay

@Anaphory I'm willing to let the players participate in building the statutes and decisions, but I do at least want to give them a framework (constitution) to start with

Anaphory

18:08

Makes sense!

nitsua60

@Shalvenay Sounds like it's time to start with a game of Nomic.

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 nomic? never heard of that?

nitsua60

Nomic

Nomic is a game created in 1982 by philosopher Peter Suber in which the rules of the game include mechanisms for the players to change those rules, usually beginning through a system of democratic voting. Nomic is a game in which changing the rules is a move. In that respect it differs from almost every other game. The primary activity of Nomic is proposing changes in the rules, debating the wisdom of changing them in that way, voting on the changes, deciding what can and cannot be done afterwards, and doing it. Even this core of the game, of course, can be changed. The initial ruleset was designed...

It's right up your alley, IMO.

Shalvenay

ah, I see.

got something a bit more physics/engineer-y to toss at you @nitsua60 if you don't mind?

nitsua60

gamecabinet.com/rules/Nomic.html

@Shalvenay shoot

Shalvenay

18:21

@nitsua60 I'm looking at making up my own patch cables/test leads for the power supply on my bench (I got it used, so it didn't come with any of that)

the rub is that I'm not sure if I should use soldered-on banana plugs or the setscrew-attached type, or the pushbutton-clamp type for that matter...I was wondering if you had any experience with bench/lab supplies and that sort of thing?

nitsua60

@Shalvenay Usually just used crimped or set-screwed. Can't remember ever worrying about much strain on those.

(And when there might have been the patch cable, rather than the electronics to which it's attached, is what you want to give.)

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 ah. what I heard about set-screw types is that they back off after a while. normally, you'd use threadlocker to stop that from happening, but threadlocker wicking into an electrical connection is no good.

nitsua60

At Fermi we just crimped our own.

That's for signal cables, of course. Power/high-voltage... I'm not sure.

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 yeah, I'd like to crimp, but 4mm stackable crimp banana plugs are unobtanium

Shalvenay

18:55

hey again @Zyera

The Oracle

19:12

1

Q: Make [spell] a synonym of [tag:spells]

several times i get this warning when tagging questions, you seem to be attempting to create the tag [spell] but the tag [spells] already exist. Did you meant to use [spells]? Or something to that effect. Can we get a synonym mapping?

support tags

Zachiel

20:36

@Heya Shalvenay

Shalvenay

how're things going?

Zachiel

Maybe I'll be staring a PF campaign as a player, instead of DMing a 3.x campaign

Shalvenay

@Zachiel ah, interesting, let me know how that goes

Zachiel

That would be an unusual variation of how things usually go in my li- I need help building a mythic character

Who was the expert here? Was it @Trish or was it Pixie?

BESW

21:13

Spent a weekend training a Generative Adversarial Network on 25k 19th century portraits; results seem good. These people have never existed:

Tweeted by pleonard on October 2, 2017 at 2:02 AM

Shalvenay

hey again @Anaphory

Anaphory

Hey

@nitsua60 That was my thought as well.

BESW

21:57

"...dragons are a manifestation of Earth's imagining that takes place in the human mind." - @AlisonDeming http://www.terriwindling.com/blog/2014/12/dragons.html

Tweeted by terriwindling on October 3, 2017 at 11:16 AM

trogdor

23:22

@BESW how darest thou you knave :P

nitsua60

@Anaphory Always wanted to play a long-term game... never got more than a few rounds into one, though.

trogdor

Long term games are great but if you can't finish them they become less worth it than short form stuff

I have come to appreciate being able to move on to the next game when no one else in the group has shown up to finish the current thing

nitsua60

23:56

@trogdor Nomic's typically an asynchronous game--successful games have often adopted a turn-a-week structure, or the like.

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