TRPG General Chat

Secespitus

13:00

That might appeal to some people, but it will certainly deter a lot of folks. It sounds like a game that sole purpose is to start a political discussion at the table...

But then again I am someone who would love to create my own dungeon with evil deadly traps and a lot of undead minions, so I am probably not your target audience...

nwp

Time to replay Dungeon Keeper / War for the Overworld.

eimyr

@doppelgreener And also about breaking societal stigma, achieving status you should be denied, outsmarting those who mean you harm and leading a small scale revolution to become a role model for the poor folk like formerly you. I'm not insisting the game should be all gloom and doom serious. It could be ran in a lighthearted way and I'm sure to include that in the pre-game discussions as a table choice

Secespitus

@nwp Never heard of that

nwp

@Secespitus You should definitely look it up then. The second one is a remake that actually works on modern systems. It's basically exactly about what you described, except you are not limited to undead minions.

eimyr

Well, it's a game subverting the modern ideas of how the Middle Ages were. I'm actually doing some research to model it as accurately as possible while also sanitizing topics that would be straight unpalatable to a modern person.

(sanitizing in a way that does not remove them or becomes a lie of its own, full transparency about that is assumed)

Secespitus

13:09

@nwp That sounds awesome, thanks. I'll check it out.

eimyr

Well, anyway. Anybody has a better name or for it than After Adventures? Or an idea for a logo I could perhaps use?

Secespitus

@eimyr More a motto than a title "And they lived happily ever after ... or did they?"

eimyr

@Secespitus "Adventuring was the easy part."

nwp

"The final challenge"

Secespitus

"The life after the Dungeon!"

eimyr

13:19

Good, very good.

Any replacements for the title though? I think After Adventures brings the uninitiated reasonably close, but perhaps we can get something better, more evocative but pithy too?

Secespitus

"After the Killing"

"Living a normal life - the dummy guide for retired adventurers"

eimyr

Normal Life sounds great, I'd use it if it also brought the medieval aspect into the play

kviiri

@eimyr Ye Normal Lyfe?

inb4 "ye" is ahistorical.

Secespitus

"Living a normal life - the dummy guide for the retired adventurer of the 14th century"

eimyr

After the Killing is great, but I specifically don't want the game to be about the moral weight of what you did before.

Þe Normal Lyfe

@kviiri It's not, "y" just replaced the thorn character in latin alphabet print media as an acceptable substitute, just like I replace the Ł in my name with L.

kviiri

13:24

@eimyr Yes, in print, but it's pronounced just "the".

eimyr

@kviiri oh yes, absolutely. I didn't know you were talking about pronunciation, I agree completely with that.

kviiri

@eimyr Cool letter, is it Polish?

I think I've seen it somewhere before.

eimyr

@kviiri It is. Pronounced as anglophone "w"

@kviiri Perhaps in Lech Wałęsa's name?

@kviiri or in Karol Wojtyła's (Pope John Paul II)

kviiri

Ah, neat!

doppelgreener

13:52

@eimyr The themes you've picked are pretty heavy themes, so I am not sure they go with "lighthearted".

eimyr

14:12

@doppelgreener that's my gut feeling as well, but it can range from "nobles are kinda assholes eh?" to "society is unforgivingly cruel"

doppelgreener

@eimyr so you may be looking for two versions of the game: one of them takes the heavy themes heavily, and others should look at series like Steven Universe or Adventure Time which take them seriously while being able to tell light-hearted stories.

Ben

So, would anyone with an excess of time on their hands and an invested level of interest be willing to do me a favour and make a stat block for Rollnir?

(I'm on my phone atm)

eimyr

@doppelgreener a bit, yes. I would prefer to leave it to the groups, while making conscious references to each choice's implications. So one table might evoke systematic oppression and resulting inequalities while another aim for a tongue-in-cheek subversion of the Adventurers Are Awesome trope.

kviiri

@eimyr What sort of rules and mechanics are you planning to have?

doppelgreener

@eimyr i think you're going to have serious problems with same-page-ness unless you provide some firm guidance.

eimyr

14:19

@doppelgreener I think I can manage the firm guidance, after all, it's PbtA.

doppelgreener

In our groups we decided on a Hellboy + Avatar + Warehouse 13 + X-Files thing. BESW originally thought he had to portray a serious and grim world so as to counterbalance levity the players would create, which wound up with a juxtaposition of depressing content & characters bringing levity to it.

We had a talk about it that resolved with him recognising he could bring a bit of both to the table, and players would feel more comfortable bringing less levity and inanity because they wouldn't have depressiveness to counteract.

In another session he created a dark and gritty character who sacrificed animals for blood rituals. That turned out to be way, way too grim and depressing for me, and he retired it at my request.

eimyr

@kviiri It's PbtA, mainly inspired by Night Witches, with Consequence system lifted from Fate replacing regular HP and DW-like Fronts, but not quite.

doppelgreener

If you're playing a game where you're portraying really heavy issues, make sure you don't have a person who's playing them light-heartedly and another who's playing them heavily and who are each expecting the other are playing it their own way at the same table.

eimyr

oh no, no way, that's the talk you should get during the game pitch.

I'm surprised you enjoyed DitV as much as you did then though.

@doppelgreener I remember I pushed really hard on the "everything is awful" button.

kviiri

@eimyr Ok, can you give a few examples of the moves you have to support the narrative?

eimyr

14:30

@kviiri absolutely, would you prefer player or GM moves?

kviiri

Player, mainly.

It might help me understand what sort of experience you're after.

eimyr

Very well, I'd say a signature move is Defy Authority. It is triggered when a PC decides to go directly against the wishes of a powerful person or group but does not break the law (that is handled by Act Like a Criminal) and rolls +Bravado (out of 4 stats of Bravado, Composure, Wit and Insight).

Another, similar is Stand Tall, which is triggered whenever PC acts above their station but not doesn't trigger Defy Authority. They are quite similar, but Stand Tall rolls Composure and the penalties for failing are less severe. Defy Authority guarantees a drawback even on success, while Stand Tall can get you some bonuses (like improved reputation).

I'd say active players can make use of Enjoy Affluence, which deals with situations where you spend your money in a way that's beyond socially acceptable use for a peasant (or whatever your class currently is) and can lead to the loss of capital, GM making a move against your wealth or reputation or, on a miss, having some immediately threatening problems arise.

kviiri

@eimyr What's the positive outcome of Enjoying Affluence?

eimyr

@kviiri well, you get to Enjoy your Affluence, so to speak, or make a good investment, purchase something out of your socially acceptable reach, elicit a positive response by giving someone money etc.

kviiri

Could you summarize the difference between Defy Authority and Stand Tall?

eimyr

14:42

there's also Act Like a Hero, a risky move which triggers when you decide to act as if you were still an adventurer on an adventure.

MadMAxJr

Gencon just around the corner.

eimyr

Sure - it's severity. If a local baron invites you to the court and then insults you, imposes a tax on you and bans you from the hunting event you can react in a number of ways. If you don't go, insult him back, pay no taxes and show up at the hunt anyway, you're Defying Authority. If you see him and turn his insult around, negotiate a tax rebate and say the hunt is a sacred religious duty you need to observe anyway, you're Standing Tall.

In the same situation, if you waltz into the baron's court wearing your adventuring outfit and carrying trophies from the monster you've slain, you're Acting Like a Hero. If you choose to rob the baron's tax collector or beat up the guards to get into the hunting event you're Acting Like a Criminal.

@kviiri I hope that's clear enough?

kviiri

I dunno, I personally like my moves to be very clear-cut but that might be just a matter of preference.

doppelgreener

@eimyr To me going into that court with my trophies could be Defiance or Standing Tall

eimyr

Yeah, I like that as well, but I think it's important. I'll definitely strive to make it as clear as possible.

@doppelgreener If the Baron said "no trophies" that's Defiance. If your current social status says "you may wear a trophy as and when you please" it's Standing. Otherwise it's a Hero thing.

doppelgreener

14:53

In particular you're saying "insulting him back" is defying authority and "turning his insult around" is standing tall, which isn't clear to me why. I think you may need a move more specific than "defy", such as "offend authority" or "break deals, defy direct orders" -- something active about what you are doing such that you are in defiance of authority in some way.

eimyr

It's like the difference between "No", "Yes, but" and "F* you I'm a hero, god**n it!"

kviiri

Toss me a quick idea what a semi-civil cult of Tiamat would have in their secret temple in addition to acolytes, mercenary guards, the head priest, and a wyrmling dragon who's the object of their worship (in addition to the vast piles of treasure they've collected). I don't want my players to get bored of slaying "same old" humanoids all the time.

eimyr

@doppelgreener yeah, it's a matter of properly verbalising it, there will be time for that when preparing the playtests. but I do appreciate the suggestions and I definitely want to look into it.

@kviiri Food and dragon nappies.

doppelgreener

then there seems to be a line drawn between cowing to their will and letting it break you, versus accepting what's acceptable and resisting what's unreasonable, and "stand tall" covers the second two (accepting and resisting) where you may rather have moves of "accept" and "resist or negotiate"

nitsua60

@kviiri Researchers.

Both historical and husbandry.

kviiri

14:55

@eimyr I was just about to edit that "oops, I forgot to add monsters in there" :P

nitsua60

Schools for the care and training of monsters.

doppelgreener

I've edited that first post to reference "move" instead of "trigger" because "offend authority" and "break deals, defy direct orders" are move replacements I'm suggesting for "defy authority", not triggers for "defy authority" which I'm suggesting ought to go away as it's too vague.

kviiri

@nitsua60 The husbandry part sounds neat, they may have captured some valuable rare creature and keep it caged up inside for training.

nitsua60

(I'm thinking it's like Hamburger University. Local cults are "franchises," and their leaders have to come in periodically for advanced work.)

kviiri

Researchers, I've already got.

nitsua60

14:57

Or like Scientologists, frankly.

kviiri

That's a part of what the acolytes do.

nitsua60

What's their "cover"?

I.e. are they also the local cheese-makers, or leather artisans?

eimyr

@doppelgreener Thing is cowing in is not a move, because you can do it for free, with success, at any time and the result is that you go back to farming turnip and oh boy they need some fertilizer!

nitsua60

I'm thinking how abbeys and monasteries generally had some specialized large-scale industry they participated in to support things.

kviiri

@nitsua60 Neat, I do the same! I always try to give in-game religious and magical NPCs some degree of academic or scientific understanding like their historical counterparts (clergy and alchemists) did.

nitsua60

14:59

Does everyone at the location even know it's Tiamat-central?

doppelgreener

@kviiri a thriving civilisation of undergnomes or goblins living around/beneath the temple who serve the dragons and survive the symbiosis by making sure the dragons have tastier things to eat than themselves.

kviiri

@nitsua60 The head priest is a wealthy and polite, if immoral, pharmacist, who has a mansion outside a small, secluded village. The temple is under the mansion.

doppelgreener

@eimyr ok, yes, wasn't suggesting having a move for cowing though.

kviiri

Most of the rest of the cult are small-time burghers, mercenaries or envoys from other franchises of their faith.

doppelgreener

but "stand tall" needs something more actionable about how you stand tall such that we can tell that's what you're doing and the results you're using, and "defy authority" needs more specific actionable things about what you're doing that results in defiance of authority, since both categories are a bit too vague.

eimyr

15:00

@doppelgreener I think the Defy move is about saying "no" directly to a request that is made by a person of authority. Stand Tall I imagine should be about resisting while acknowledging the legality of the request to try to negotiate it into something reasonable.

doppelgreener

@eimyr ok, but I say "no, you don't get to be a jerk to me" or "no, i can't pay those taxes, let's renegotiate"

kviiri

@nitsua60 The funny thing is, before I planned this plot the location was a village next to a lake called "Tiamat's tear". I assured my players it's just a name as far as anyone knows, because I didn't think I'd include anything actually Tiamaty there either. But then this plotline sort of marched onto me :P

(there's also Bahamut's tear nearby)

eimyr

@doppelgreener Point taken. It depends on how ridiculous the original request is. I'll think about it.

doppelgreener

@kviiri actual bureaucrats or people they know who seem to be genuinely nice people (i.e. not in the slaying category).

@eimyr cool beans

@kviiri a beast acting as a watchdog which is probably beyond their ability to slay.

kviiri

@doppelgreener Good idea, /me marks down.

nitsua60

15:04

@kviiri You wouldn't have had any trouble with me, because I don't believe in Tiamat and/or Bahamut. (Takhisis and Paladine, OTOH....)

kviiri

@nitsua60 Hehe :P

I know almost zilch of any official DnD setting. But my players said they like Forgotten Realms - no one has played DnD before though, they've just read the books.

I asked them if they're fine if I screw up minor lore bits, they said it's ok.

@doppelgreener Hm, now that you mention it I have just the place for one on my map... I just need to figure out an appropriately challenging monster for a level 4 party, one that could be sensibly tamed to that point, and one that doesn't detract from the cool factor of the dragon wyrmling in the end.

doppelgreener

(who said tamed?)

kviiri

:D

"That's why it's semi-civil."

doppelgreener

they just put it out there, find a way to keep it nearby out there, and make sure it can't eat them

T.J.L.

@kviiri If they're talking books as in novels, the vast majority of them are pre-Spellplague. If you're playing 5th Ed, and using the default timeline, those events took place a century or more ago.

kviiri

15:10

@nitsua60 When I first read of Tiamat in the 4e PHB or something, I got the impression she's primarily the god of wealth, greed and hoarding and the whole evil dragon thing mostly comes from the dragon's association to these qualities. Turns out the dragons are fairly important to her in themselves.

But I still retain bits of my original Tiamat, so in my games she's worshipped by immoral businesspeople as well as crazy dragon people. One god, two religions.

But with significant overlap, of course ;)

@T.J.L. Ah, thanks for the info.

That's good to know in case they ask me about it.

nitsua60

@kviiri That's pretty cool--I do love how our "shared" worlds so quickly become uniquely flavored.

Adam

@kviiri You could juice up a manticore a little bit. Manticores have been known to hang around with other races if doing so provides them with a steady source of food. You could also scale down a chimera a little bit, or change the dragon head around to some other animal if you want to avoid giving it a breath weapon. Maybe change it to a basilisk head or a wolf head that can knock you prone

T.J.L.

@kviiri FYI, the Spellplague is the in-character event that explains the drastic system changes from 3.5E to 4E. An event called the Second Sundering is how/why everything shifted back to the 5E mechanics.

kviiri

@T.J.L. I know the basics of spellplague, I recall someone discussing it here earlier. I hadn't even paid much attention to the changing state of the metaplot before that.

I honestly don't appreciate the metaplot much, but since it doesn't get in my way it's harmless for me, and I guess someone gets kicks out of that stuff.

@Adam I think I'll try manticore, it sounds cool.

T.J.L.

@kviiri My point was that most novels are history, if you're using the current timeline. More importantly, I suppose, is the fact that they can be considered stories told by individuals, and the information could very well be apocryphal.

kviiri

15:18

@T.J.L. Aye.

Adam

I'm speaking nonsense, don't listen to me!

kviiri

@nitsua60 I originally had a bit of trouble reconciling the mercantile Tiamat cult's interest with Tiamat's own interests, because they are both greedy - Tiamat wants to possess everything, the cultitsts want to possess everything.

Then I came up with the cosmic pyramid scheme: Tiamat cultists do this ritual where they sacrifice wealth to Tiamat, and in return, Tiamat blesses them so they earn it back fivefold. Eventually all wealth in the universe trickles to Tiamat this way!

nitsua60

9d6

Dice Service

•

T.J.L.

@kviiri Of course, if they don't get it back fivefold, they have clearly done something to offend Tiamat and must try harder.

kviiri

15:22

@T.J.L. Yes. And money earned, of course, comes from anyone else but Tiamat herself.

nitsua60

@Ben 10d10

@Ben 5d10

(working on your "Rollnir" writeup)

5d10

Dice Service

2

10

1

5

7

nitsua60

also

5d10

Dice Service

3

10

9

2

6

nitsua60

15:41

@Ben Rollnir: homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/SkbutsLPwW

2

kviiri

@nitsua60 If I was weaing a hat, it'd be off to you.

doppelgreener

Just came across this comment from Miniman. Posting it here because it's great & it might also need to get removed, so preservation ho!

No-one knows how many hit points a lyre has; whenever you ask them they give you a different answer. — Miniman 13 hours ago

2

Ben

@nitsua60 haha brilliant :D thanking you muchly

doppelgreener

15:56

@nitsua60 wowsers. murder by aging.

Is "immunity to aging" a thing in D&D 5e?

if there's effects that age you forward or backward, would immortal beings be affected at all..?

Secespitus

@doppelgreener Yes. I think Monks get it. At least their bodies don't show signs of aging after a certain level

Ben

@doppelgreener perhaps the aging is purely superficial

Secespitus

But I think it's more for roleplaying aspects. There are no mechanics behind the age

Just a few effects from Wild Magic Surge and a potion or something along those lines

Adam

@Secespitus Monks suffer none of the frailty of old age, and can't be aged magically, but do still die of old age. Druids at some point will begin aging a 1/10th the normal rate (1 year for every 10 years passed)

Ben

Or you can play this guy...

Adam

16:03

@doppelgreener Well, the Boon of Immortality says that you stop aging, can't be aged magically, and can't die from old age. So I would say no. An immortal being is unaffected by such aging effects.

kviiri

IIRC, before immortality became an actual game mechanic in Crusader Kings 2, there was some rather hilariously cheesy way of becoming incapable of dying to old age or most disease.

It involved some health-boosting religious event (pilgrimage maybe?) that could only be taken once in a lifetime, but could be repeated if the character switched religions in between.

BanjoFox

o.o

doppelgreener

@Ben nice.

@Adam Right. Part of what I'm thinking of is like, "what if you hit a rock golem with an aging effect", or "what if you hit a god with it".

Adam

@doppelgreener Well stone golems are constructs. And I would argue that a construct doesn't age, so the effect would do nothing. Similarly I would argue that a god's immortality is at least as strong as the Boon of Immortality. And since the effect wouldn't affect someone with the Boon, then it certainly wouldn't affect a god unless it was specifically designed to do so.

CM_Dayton

16:31

@Ben No. No I cannot play that guy. I am a Windows / SQL Server admin. NOT a unix/linux guru.

nitsua60

@Ben Much of that I just threw in as filler, so that you'd have the skeleton and be able to flesh it out with whatever you wanted. I believe from that link you can see the source, which you could copy-pasta into your own Homebrewery? The Rollnir Effects were just four entries from my WM surge table (not the PHB one); as rolled the fifth would have been a fireball, but I thought that a 3/4 chance to cast a fireball was too hefty, so I made it the continuation of Temperamentality.

kviiri

@CM_Dayton Looks to me he's fixing bugs in Apple software.

I don't know why, maybe it's just the iPatch.

CM_Dayton

@kviiri That's an eye patch, not hipster shades... But nice pun with the iPatch. Points to you. :)

kviiri

Today I rolled a natural 1 with using our customer's deploy environment. Turns out the way it auto-completes some mandatory fields is wrong and causes our software to not deploy.

nitsua60

This digital music thing will probably reach its endgame sometime in the next decade or so. These are very exciting times.

kviiri

16:34

Days like these are what makes me both feel like I deserve a raise AND totally not deserve a thing, ever.

CM_Dayton

auto-not-deploying software is great. Microsoft has a trademark on that, unfortunately.

kviiri

I'm working on a feature that needs to be deployed to be tested in action. Each deployment takes an hour of work at least. Better be careful not to miss those semicolons ;)

GreySage

@kviiri The worst thing is when you miss a camel-case and your variables can't be found

kviiri