TRPG General Chat

KorvinStarmast

00:01

@BESW That quote by Rob Heinsoo is an insult to those of us who, by buying and playing the game in the 1970's, made it possible to continue on.

BESW

I do not think it means what you think it means, as has been belabored repeatedly already and is made clear by the linked context.

KorvinStarmast

@BESW You need to understand what was happening when D&D came out. It was a game like no other game any of us had played before. It's end was not to "win" that day but to survive so that we could play again the next time. It completely broke the paradigm of what a game is. Hinsoo is clueless.

@BESW I have two copies of Rob Kuntz recent short treatment, teaser, to his soon to be released book. While it is somewhat tedious in terms of writing style, and I'd not recommend you drop the $15 US for it (wait for the complete work) he's the last man standing in a lot of ways from proto D&D days.

I can mail you a copy of you like.

The demand that any DM be somehow "perfect" (which in Hinsoo speak means pliable) and without human imperfection is the talk of a CPRG aficcianado. Or a software geek. DM's are indeed human in the same glorious tradition that the Greek Gods were all too human. That's the model.

the human element is key to playing D&D. It is critical. Without it the game cannot be.

BESW

I'd be delighted to read a relatively short account of the early days of the RPG medium, as the multi-volume treatises I've seen are out of proportion to my available time and interest. But I honestly have no idea what you're responding to with this whole "perfect GM" thing ("perfect" isn't anywhere in the interview), and I suspect you're reading more judgement into his statement than I am.

KorvinStarmast

Arneson's "little black notebook" and Gygax never ending rhetoric on what is and isn't the Dm's role all agree on that. The DM is human, and without that human element you aren't playing the game as written.

Predatory DM is a term that I associate with people who don't get D&D. If you have a bad DM, quite simply vote with your feet. don't play with a DM like that. Period. Man up and run that table the way you'd like to see it run.

2

Crying about it misses the point.

@BESW I'll stop now. Rant over. (Other than I wish RK would publish the full length work, and soon).

BESW

00:17

mmm. If I may, I'd like to say that I want to hear your perspective on these things, but it's really hard to do so when it's regularly framed as my being too young and ignorant to have any useful insights--especially when the other people I've spoken to about the same issues in the same eras have dramatically different perspectives from yours.

KorvinStarmast

@BESW If that is the message you are getting, sorry, my frustration is misdirected and you got caught in the frag pattern.

BESW

If I'm not able to participate meaningfully in these conversations based on study and discussion with others, there's not much point in sticking around.

KorvinStarmast

Small group dynamics is a thing. People who are jerks are a thing. None of that has to do with the game itself, but the table in question.

You can take the same game and have three utterly different experiences. That is a feature, not a bug. game 1: jerk DM, players not having fun. Game 2: the awesome game any or all of us wish was every game. Game 3 (the norm) fun, but some snags along the way.

BESW

@KorvinStarmast Blaming age gaps for perspective differences is basically saying that I don't have a place in the conversation and never can.

KorvinStarmast

Games 1 and 2 are the narrow end of the bell curve, beyond three sigma in either direction.

Game 3 is what most games are.

Right, you stopped listening, got it. Sorry this worked out that way.

We'll try another topic another time, the cul de sac isn't the highway we were looking for.

doppelgreener

00:22

I could say that if we're current players of recent-ish editions who don't know what 1970s gaming was like, and our current editions have some noticeable issues, the context of 1970s gaming doesn't make those issues go away. That "this comes from stuff in the 1970s" might just be the point: perhaps it did come from stuff in the 1970s, and now it's like this, and that presents itself as an issue.

Kinda like "ok, see, there's this human sacrifice stuff, but you gotta understand, back a century ago, we..." doesn't suddenly make the thing OK, even if you understand the context or where it originated.

(that's not to say old styles of play are like human sacrifice, I just mean to show an example of a thing that is the case because of stuff that came before now, but might also be a problem now regardless of what came before now)

KorvinStarmast

@doppelgreener Damage control effort appreciated, please don't waste your time. If you are complaining about a predatory DM, you are most of your own problem. The game was originally made for adults. Your analogy is so far off base it is insulting.

godskook

@doppelgreener except the point @KorvinStarmast seems to be driving at is "see, you gotta understand, back a century ago, we didn't have this human sacrifice stuff you guys seem to think we did".

BESW

And I'm sitting here going "Wait, I don't see where the original quote said that at all."

KorvinStarmast

Good night, all, I am once again in the wrong generation for this conversation. This is not going to go well, and I am not interested in getting all into Doppel's grill again. Not tonight. (And hopefully, not again ...)

@BESW It's OK not to understand. We don't have to know everything.

BESW

It's saying there isn't an inherent divide and then talking about how artefacts of the genre's origin blew up in certain individual groups over time.

godskook

00:26

@BESW, I very much do, but have come to accept that your liking of the quote stems from your seeing that quote VERY differently.

KorvinStarmast

@BESW my final offering. Situations 1, 2, and 3 are present no matter what year you are playing. All that is different is what people do about it. We whined about it less than some ...

BESW

@godskook Yeeeah, did I ever say I liked the quote?

People seem to keep looking for sides to take.

If there's anything in the quote I liked, it's that it's saying there aren't sides.

But maybe I chose the wrong part to copy-paste, or expected more people to click through to the interview than was realistic.

godskook

@BESW I got the impression that yes, you did.

BESW

I linked an interesting thing, and people immediately started saying things about it which I couldn't see how they related to the thing.

godskook

@BESW I have by this point clicked through the article, sufficiently to say that I doubt my views of the quote from the article are likely to change.

BESW

00:30

It's got ideas I like, but also things I don't have context to judge the accuracy of.

So perhaps I came across as more defensive of the statement than I intended, because all I've had to respond to are things which feel like they're attacking me for sharing it, or which I can't see how they relate to the statement.

godskook

@BESW I do want to make clear, I've logged this entire conversation, as hardy philisophical conversation between you and I. There'll be no "baggage" from it, as far as I'm concerned.

BESW

@godskook Mmm. In this case our conversation didn't feel antagonistic to me either. It fell more on the "two ships passing in the dark" end of the spectrum.

daze413

@BESW I'm not familiar with Trail of Cthulhu, but the OMH story sounded like there was GM buy-in. Can you even pull stuff like that off, in any game without GM buy in?

BESW

@godskook I originally tracked down that interview because you were asking about 13th Age and how it related to D&D.

KorvinStarmast

@BESW Man, you are aces high in my book. Please appreciate that. When I first came to this site and kept getting the " come to chat" I vigorously refused. I think you can now appreciate why I did that. I should do that again for a while. Some days, my filters don't work as well as others.

BESW

00:41

@KorvinStarmast Thank you, that means a lot. Please take it in kind that I want to have conversations about these topics with you, but it's very hard to do so without feeling belittled, or like you're actively looking for reasons to be offended.

I want to improve that experience.

@daze413 That's part of what's so interesting about OMH! Both GM and player started out acting on their own unspoken and probably unconscious awareness of "how a game should be." When the GM's choices broke what the player thought was in the social contract, the player broke the entire social contract in response.

...but the GM wouldn't or couldn't. He stuck with the (probably unconscious) idea that there are certain unspoken Ways RPGs Work, including that if the player can justify trying a thing which invokes the dice, the GM has to let the dice decide the outcome and can't just rule it by fiat.

The player understood, on some level, that the GM had certain golden idols he wouldn't bring himself to mash. OMH was designed to lean on those golden idols: the things the GM held sacred about RPGs and wouldn't compromise on.

Hence, for example, the ridiculously massive backstory, because the GM respected detailed character development.

OMH is a petty, vindictive masterpiece of social engineering.

Hey, @Miniman, did you ever play Kisima Inŋitchuŋa (Never Alone)?

doppelgreener

01:01

I am off to sleep!! @BESW I hope things are going OK on your end. I probably won't be there later for geek night if it's on.

BESW

@doppelgreener Thanks! Things are okay. Next week we can try to get Geek Night started again.

doppelgreener

hooray!!

Trish

01:16

ARG.... just need to vent a moment...
It's 3 AM, waiting for my little sis to call me as her taxi home, only a tiny bit worried cause she said she'd call to be picked up "like 2AM or such" and because she knows her buddies on the party (hell, half of them are into sewing and she is industrial engineer) and I did get a relief notice that everything is all right and that one of those would bring her by some time later (and a wish for a good sleep)... but I am on coke and suggar, so won't sleep for at least an hour... And what is worse: I am out of YouTube subsriptions. from the last week!

godskook

Where do you live that its 3am?

Also, what kind of people do you subscribe to, I might have 1-2 reccomendations.

Trish

@godskook There is a mythical place that on maps from the Americas is labled as 'hvc snt draconis' next to the letters E P O R U E from the right to the left.

@godskook And this place is said to have inside it a zone, that happens to be 6 to 9 hours before America. They live in the past it is said.

In other words: I am a Europe-person, or more specifically, a German.

godskook

@Trish I mean, that's what all my British friends say, but I hear you guys and them are on bad terms.

Trish

@godskook Uhm, at the moment: mainly let's plays... Blitz, ToxicTimewaster, Lathland, quill18, Scott Manley, Modi Operandus [sic!], Brothgar...

I could dig up vids I havn't watched... or... Japanology plus/Begin Japanology...

godskook

So....goofy people playing games while talking?

Have you tried Game Grumps?

I've also got Matt Collville: DM Training videos and D&D session-podcasts

I've never listened to his podcasts, saved or otherwise, but I generally like his "training videos".

Trish

01:25

oh, jsut got in two updates! yay.... saved me!

godskook

Darn.....er, wait, I....I mean YAY!

Trish

(and... I still have like... a ton of comics to read... XD)

godskook

Oh, comics were on the table for this?

I've got a few webcomics nobody seems to have heard of anymore that are worth the read.

Trish

@godskook I read... some...

nitsua60

01:47

@BESW I'm on record disagreeing with the notion in that quote's first sentence that it's wargaming that created the adversarial dynamic. And there I think I'll leave it =)

godskook

@Trish Erfworld, Schlock Mercenary, OotS, Goblins, and Girl Genius are probably my top 5 serials atm, in no particular order. 8-Bit and Bob&George are two old-school sprit comics I really enjoyed, but there's no new ones; both are also quite...boomy, so more of an acquired taste.

Trish

@godskook TwoKinds, GrrlPower, How to Be a Werewolf, Empowered (yes, the author puts his sold out books onto the internets) and - if it updates twice a year - Original Life.

nitsua60

@godskook Something in my brain's cross-wired: a few times recently I've seen you mention "Erfworld" and each time images from my childhood with Elfquest pop into my vision.

godskook

@nitsua60 Do you know what Erfworld is?

nitsua60

nope =)

godskook

01:53

@nitsua60 well...you're one of today's lucky 10,000

erfworld.com

Actually

erfworld.com/erf_stream/books

That's probably a better link for people to introduce themselves to Erfworld through.

nitsua60

@Ryan how large is your AL site? Is there only one table? Because "jump 3 levels" isn't an AL thing at all. (But if there's just one table it sounds like someone's trying to do the best they can?)

@godskook Oh, actually, I have seen that before. It didn't capture me (then nor now).

BESW

2d Goggles, Dents, Tea Dragon Society, Atomic Robo, Digger, leveL, Drive, Narbonic, Skin Horse...

nitsua60

@BESW that ^^ is making this vv seem more and more likely...

Jan 1 '16 at 13:58, by BESW

I've been accused of being a gestalt entity.

BESW

@nitsua60 How so?

nitsua60

Nine unrelated terms-out-of-the-blue, with neither forthcoming explanation nor obvious context? Clearly you-all are fighting over the keyboard =)

BESW

02:08

[snerk]

Webcomics I enjoy.

nitsua60

Hmm... guess we both just outed ourselves, then, eh? =D

Whether you love or hate comment-policies, go ahead and read and weigh in:

65

Q: Fixing comments in 5 minutes. Intrigued? Let's discuss

I made a quick change to Area 51 recently, and it had a profound effect on how people used that site, so let's discuss. Background: The basic building blocks of every SE site are the QUESTION and the ANSWER. They are clearly portrayed as such, so if anyone puts "something else" in that space, ...

(Context, in case it's not known: post-author is an SE employee with primary responsibility for Area51, the proving ground where proto-sites are developed and ushered into beta-hood.)

Trish

BUT, the day before exactly the same request was denied...

nitsua60

BUT but, today we have not speculation that it could help, but anecdote that it could help =)

(In seriousness, though, I think Shog points out some daylight between the two proposals.)

I declined that proposal because we opted not to do that specific thing in favor of changing guidance, @kendra. That doesn't preclude other changes to address the root problem though; this would be interesting to test. — Shog9 ♦ 2 days ago

Miniman

@BESW I hadn't - it sort of fell off my radar.

Trish

02:25

Sometimes I wonder if either authors telegraph relations between comic/manga characters too much so readers catch them up ages before they are mentioned, or if I am overly good at spotting those hints...

(which actually might relate to how I try to RP NPCs... show relations, not tell about them...)

BESW

Sometimes a story's draw is how the relationship is portrayed, so keeping it a surprise is counterproductive? I dunno your context, so that may be irrelephant.

Trish

02:42

It's like...
Unless the plot is convoluted and leaves out details that would allow to know what happened in the gaps between panels (like... code geass - which is one of the few plot things that actually did surprise me all of the time, but then again, each story is a gambit pileup in a gambit pileup that leads to an ultimate gambit through... is it suicide if you have someone else wearing your own persona's mask kill yourself?)... Ok, I often seem to stitch together details from various chapters that don't seem to relate to each other too much, and make out stuff like "uhm... Ok Char A, I …

It's kinda the 2nd line chars that I find more interesting most often anyway...

Ryan

03:40

@nitsua60 there's 5 venues around. 4 on this side of the city and 1 way on the other side of town. this particular table is at the smaller venue in this area and they are just starting with 5E. I think this is they're second table. It says right on the post that they're looking for more DMs as interest grows

BESW

@Ryan Invest in RPGs and watch your interest grow!

Ryan

@BESW yup!

oh @BESW have you heard of Arcknight? I just saw those and it reminded me of what you said you make yourself

BESW

Nope! [googles]

Ryan

arcknight.squarespace.com/shop

BESW

Interesting.

They don't really fit the same niche as Gnome Stew's print-and-fold miniature templates, but they do solve a few of the same problems.

Ryan

03:56

never seen the Gnome Stew's before

BESW

That's what I've always used.

Just find a picture of your character/monster/whatever, slap it into the PDF, print, cut, and fold.

Ryan

i need to decide on upping 2 of my skills or taking a feat and then I think the character is ready

BESW

Fast, cheap, customizable, easy to transport.

Ryan

04:20

hmm torn on increasing Constitution or Charisma

daze413

04:44

@Ryan still dnd-5e?

Ryan

yeah @daze413

i went with Con

daze413

what class? what're you trying to achieve? :)

more HP is always nice :)

Ryan

Dwarf Paladin. dm asked me to level to 8 before coming to be closer to where everyone else at the table is

I'm Oath of Crown so the extra HP will go a long way with Turn the Tide and Divine Allegiance

:) just beat you to it

daze413

hahaha Yeah, Con is a pretty solid pick, in that case. What adventure are you guys running?

@BESW Out of curiosity, do you also read "ŋ", as ng?

Ryan

@daze413 "The campaign is set in the long-established D&D setting of the Forgotten Realms in the land of Faerun." is what the meetup description says

BESW

04:54

@daze413 Hmm. I'm not sure how it's read.

daze413

@BESW can't think of an english word that has an "ng" but without a hard G.

@Ryan Hm. I guess the start of the adventure is a surprise! :D

@BESW SING - "siŋ"

BESW

I mean ŋ, in Iñupiaq.

I'm not familiar with Iñupiaq pronunciations.

daze413

if it's anywhere near SEA, it might be pronounced the same [citation needed]

BESW

This interview says it's "Ki-si-ma ing-i-chuna."

daze413

Velar nasal

The velar nasal is a type of consonantal sound, used in some spoken languages. It is the sound of ng in English sing. The symbol in the International Phonetic Alphabet that represents this sound is ⟨ŋ⟩, and the equivalent X-SAMPA symbol is N. The IPA symbol ⟨ŋ⟩ is similar to ⟨ɳ⟩, the symbol for the retroflex nasal, which has a rightward-pointing hook extending from the bottom of the right stem, and to ⟨ɲ⟩, the symbol for the palatal nasal, which has a leftward-pointing hook extending from the bottom of the left stem. Both the IPA symbol and the sound are commonly called 'eng' or 'engma'. As a phoneme...

@BESW Ah, yeah, it's ng. Cool

BESW

04:59

In Chamorro, the "ng" character makes a sound that I've never been able to master.

For English speakers, nginge' rhymes with dinghy, and then we get laughed at.

daze413

@BESW what does it mean?

and do you use it often around english speakers?

BESW

@daze413 Roughly "smelling the hand." It's a gesture of respect toward an elder that looks like exactly what it says on the tin.

daze413

@BESW we have that, too, but it's less hand-to-nose, and more hand-to-forehead

BESW

It's an everyday thing in Chamorro life, kinda like a handshake or air-kissing in other cultures.

Hah! I found a Native Alaskan saying the game's name.

The Oracle

07:07

0

Q: Danish roleplaying forums off topic?

Concerning this question: Where online do Danish roleplaying conversations happen? Could someone explain why it is a recommendation question? It is asking a well-defined question (Danish language online roleplaying communities which are significant in the sense that most Danes know of them if t...

discussion on-topic

kviiri

@KorvinStarmast As both a GM and a player, I hate being a victim of not having rules.

I like GM fiat only when the rules are clearly bad for fun, and even then I think GM fiat is more of a workaround and things would be better solved by having good rules in the first place.

Also, the lack of focus in 5e is not just a matter of rules, but a matter of content. For example, as a 5e bard who wants to pick no useless spells at all, I have to consider every spell pick against my GM. Leomund's tiny hut, for example, is either very useful or completely useless, depending on the GM's strictness regarding suitable rest environments and the likely settings faced ahead.

Whereas in 4e, most powers were directly meant for combat, and the occasional utility powers there were separate picks so one couldn't ruin their character's combat potency with poor utility picks.

godskook

07:47

@kviiri, On the one hand, I feel very much that rules are merely tools to work with, and each should be molded or discarded to fight the purpose to which you bend the system to at your table. On the other, rules are the framework within which ideas can find the needed structure with which to grow. Its a tight balance to walk.

kviiri

08:21

@godskook I think it's usually a better idea to play a game whose rules already support a playstyle you're after that make homebrew changes

However, if a homebrew change is to be made, I'm ok with that as long it's a transparent rule and not an opaque GM decision.

Opaqueness ruins my immersion :(

Baskakov_Dmitriy

08:48

@Trish You know Skallagrim? You would probably like that channel. And the Slingshot channel (Joerg Sprave)

@Trish Well, yes. Same in computer games that want to leave the intrigue. If you played Heroes IV, you probably remember that Life campaign that was spoiled to me from the very first texts. Lord Lisander looking for 1) his parents and lost family 2) the real heritor of Erathia's throne. Oh, where could this plot go! No idea!

@kviiri I generally agree with you.

But even if you have good rules, sometimes a good story needs GM fiat

And it is better if instruments are available. For example, in oWoD (that is basically WoD now) it is a good idea NOT to name the difficulty of a die roll (DC, basically) and the amount of successes needed. The GM just tells you what happened, not even "you succeeded" or "you failed", so what seems to be a success can actually be a dramatic failure.

The next step is not even showing dice to players, all rolls are made by the GM. Works perfectly, allowing to sometimes change the roll result to whatever is needed for the current story.

Of course, if your game includes various competitive PvP aspects, you need strict rules and all dice are rolled openly. I know a WoD group in Moscow who play that.

kviiri

09:08

@Baskakov_Dmitriy I prefer playing to find out what happens over the GM deciding everything.

Szega

@Baskakov_Dmitriy I do not get why a GM would change rolls. If you already know what the result is, why are you even rolling? If you both want something to happen and would feel a roll would be fair, go with fairness.

kviiri

@Szega This is my preferred choice for games where the intention is to have a coherent on-rails story, yep.

Szega

@kviiri If the story is already not coherent, it just feels even "more right" to let the dice fall where they may, as probably that is driving a chaotic story

kviiri

@Szega aye

And couple that with fail forward!

Szega

@kviiri No. A fail should be a fail. But it should not stop the story from advancing (probably in a direction that PC will dislike)

kviiri

09:14

@Szega A fail forward is still a fail.

Szega

@kviiri It would be best if we agreed on what that means exactly :)

kviiri

It's a fail that advances the plot or the action, not necessarily in the PC's interest.

Szega

@kviiri Well, if failing would be inconsequential, you do not even roll...

kviiri

@Szega I'm afraid No Roll Does Nothing is not a universal principle. I personally try to adhere to it the best I can, but it's harder in games like DnD where there are no clear cues for GM to act on fails.

runagame.net/2015/12/fail-forward.html "When people talk about Fail Forward in RPGs, they mean that failure should not stop the action, and failure should always have interesting consequences."

Szega

@kviiri Well, the basic litmus test before a roll is: What are the outcomes? Would it be fine for either to happen? -> if not, do not ask for a roll

kviiri

09:18

@Szega Yep!

I like the PbtA style where the player knows in advance the TN of the rolls (because it never changes) and knows what they can do on success, but the GM has more freedom on most fails.

Apocalypse World is designed for "play to find out what happens", and it's not uncommon for a good roll to completely trash a major villain or something. But that makes the game rather interestingly unpredictable.

PCs, on thr othet hand, are more resilient. In the second edition they won't die without their player's permission. But they'll wind up screwed in various other, interesting ways...

Baskakov_Dmitriy

11:13

@Szega @kviiri True: the dice don't have to be always ignored. But sometimes you see that they are just ruining the story. And then you fix it by telling your players an outcome different from what is written in the rules.

"PCs will win" is a relatively common approach.

The point is that they should feel like struggling hard for their victory.

Baskakov_Dmitriy

11:53

BTW, a related question by Trish about a situation when dice have to be rolled openly

0

Q: How can I fudge die rolls when they're made out in the open?

At some tables, dice are rolled on the table and are open to everybody to see, and this can't be negotiated. This can make it hard for the GM to fudge with the visible part of the results, if the planned story leads to an other direction than the dice want. So How can a GM still manipulate the r...

system-agnostic dice

1

Q: How can I load polyhedral dice so they roll poorly?

My current GMing situation mandates I roll dice out in the open. However, I want some special loaded dice that'll roll poorly in case I need to save a PC or the plot. There are some caveats: Close inspection can't reveal that the dice have been altered. The balance shift should be just enough t...

loaded-dice

Ben

@Baskakov_Dmitriy actually, I only just realized what you were talking about when you were asking if I was "they". Lol.

Because "they" posted another one haha

Baskakov_Dmitriy

12:23

@Ben Ah, previously in the chat?

Szega

13:27

@Baskakov_Dmitriy If you already know what will and will not "ruin the story", you do not need dice at all. Just tell your players what happens. It will mean though, that at (to the players) random points in time, the world behaves differently for no reason. I couldn't play with that sort of inconsistency.

Trish

@Baskakov_Dmitriy My approach is "PCs can win if they don't make stupid choices. Surviving counts as winning."

I NEVER guarantee my players that they can win, I never guarantee that they will achieve their goals. That would be poor GMing in my opinion

Ben

@Baskakov_Dmitriy haha yes

Baskakov_Dmitriy

14:00

@Trish Well, true, really stupid choices should damage or even kill the party. But not a random critical hit or smth like that.

Trish

@Baskakov_Dmitriy Well, a random crit not, but attacking the city guard is a stupid choice beyond recognition...

Baskakov_Dmitriy

@Szega If you just say what happens, players know that everything happens because you said so. If they see all of the dice mechanics, they can only curse themselves and the dice, but they may fail a check kill the story. Again, speaking from experience.

@Trish Not always, though

Players should always have a chance to win by making good choices and enough info to make them intelligently.

If the GM makes your encounter too hard and you die because of it, given that your builds are known, that's a bad GM too.

Trish

14:19

@Baskakov_Dmitriy name me a situation when assaulting the city guard with the clear advantage of numbers and range as well as ranged weaponry (using helbards and light crossbows with a cuiras and helmet) while being clearly informed that this is a large city of about 200k inhabitants is a smart idea...

Even if they are twice as skillful as te guards, their supply of men will in the end win... especially as they use formations

Baskakov_Dmitriy

@Trish City guards are mostly lvl 1 Warriors. PCs can be a lvl 1 party of Fighter, Paladin, Bard and Monk, but can also be a lvl 20 party of 5 T1 spellcasters.

Trish

@Baskakov_Dmitriy this happened in a non level but a skill driven system.

City guards have skills of about 3 to 6. heroes are expected to have 6 to 12 in their top skills. That makes them only more likely to hit, but not guarantee a hit ever. Beginner heroes with a 6 often hit and defend with 50% chance, those guards manage about... 35%

A party of spellcasters in DSA very quickly runs out of 'mana' or gets cut to shreds as they are still incanting their spells because you may not defend as you cast.

Shalvenay

@Baskakov_Dmitriy at the latter point, you'd think the city guard would have a wizard or two on retainer

Baskakov_Dmitriy

14:40

@Trish Well, a party of VtM shovelheads can wreck modern "city guard" and run away

They do it pretty often

A party of Garou would not even need to fight

Trish

@Baskakov_Dmitriy a party of VtM shovelheads will do that once or twice, and the Police in question will arm up to SWAT. Which can actually take a hit or two... and you know what shovelheads don't like? Shotguns and automatic fire, those do enough damage to bring the shovelhead down.

@Baskakov_Dmitriy and the general party of Garou is smart enough NOT to assault police in a modern city. My Werewolf group is currently in Berlin and we try REALLY hard to keep under the radar of the police, even if we just broke into a museum and stole something to keep the veil of Verewolfs without having a single garou in tow. 4 Bastet, 2 Kitsune, a Nuwisha claiming to be a Garou, that's our Kaganmadi. In Somalia we did brandish guns against militia, but never hurt a real policeman.

Shalvenay

14:54

besides, if you apply the Peelian principles to your VtM world...you might find out that the cop that just showed up is a Garou :o

Trish

15:05

@Shalvenay Yes, that IS a distinct possibility. It is much more likely you just shoveled a Ghoul or servant of the Prince/Sherif/other figure or broke the masquerade so they bloodhunt you.

Shalvenay

then again, the VtM char concepts that rattle around my head are about the polar opposite of shovelheads

hey there @KorvinStarmast

KorvinStarmast

@kviiri I have a hard time empathizing that that viewpoint. I began in the game when it was wide open and we had to fill in a lot of the gaps. That's Part Of The Game, and That's Part of the Fun. CRPG infiltration into the RPG hobby has been IMO toxic. (But I love me some Diablo, go figure).

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast besides, the gaps can be necessary to provide room for the table to worldbuild

KorvinStarmast

There's an early edition Dragon mag editorial by GG being very explicit about the difference in view, even in 1974. This was not long after the first three books were published, but well before AD&D. Even then, GG was very much a gamer of the old style who had been publishing game rules, and any game is bound by its rules was and is a long standing assumption. Arneson broke that mold hard. And GG like all of the others loved it.

But to publish a game, it needed rules, right? :) A bit of a vicious circle.

Shalvenay

but at the same time, a game's rules need not speak directly to the metaphysics of the game world

KorvinStarmast

15:19

@Shalvenay AMen on the gaps needing to be there to be filled in during play.

Shalvenay

(Fate is a wonderful example of what I'm talking about re: game rules being decoupled from metaphysics)

KorvinStarmast

A valid complaint against AD&D was that the efforts at standardization (See "Schick INfluence" an Cons) went too far.

but the products sold. Gamers needed and wanted more content. It came out by the bucket load.

Shalvenay

what D&D really needed more of was rationale -- the designers saying why things are a certain way, and providing more framework for people to understand the effects of changes.

2

KorvinStarmast

@Shalvenay Do you think they've done a better job of that in recent editions, or is that still lacking?

Shalvenay

it's still somewhat lacking. 5e does a slightly better job than previous editions, but it pales compared to say Fate

KorvinStarmast

15:25

@Shalvenay So room for improvement there... might be worth a letter to WoTC/Crawford or as part of the feedback on the next UA article.

I have a feeling that Crawford and Mearls do listen ...

Baskakov_Dmitriy

@Trish Well, let me test this. Shall we agree that a Shovelhead is 4/4/3 in physical stats, probably 1 or 2 in a related combat skill, and has around 3 in Wits, plus 4 Disciplines, and a trained SWAT member is 4/4/4 in Physical stats, 4 in Wits, 3 or 4 in Firearms? As SWAT will most likely deploy "Full Riot Gear", I would also propose -3 Dex penalty and 5 soak dice.

@Trish There is Delirium for police. And for everyone else.

Trish

@Baskakov_Dmitriy only against weres not *vampires

@Baskakov_Dmitriy Full SWAT gear I would put more at 7 soak dice with shield, and immune to bite attack.

Baskakov_Dmitriy

@Trish Garou can use Delirium against everyone except other supernaturals.

@Trish Page 280 of V20 Core

Full Riot Gear

Trish

@Baskakov_Dmitriy not counting the shield there.

@Baskakov_Dmitriy and if I remember correctly, Flashbangs count as seeing Fire to Vampires...

Baskakov_Dmitriy

@Trish OK, let us agree that some of them have a shield.

9

Q: Are there stats and rules for shield and anti-ballistic shield use in the modern day?

How are shields supposed to work in Vampire: the Masquerade? I've found some stats in Dark Ages (where they are very effective weapons for parrying attacks) but I don't know if there are stats for shields in modern times, especially shields that also work against firearms (which is not the case f...

world-of-darkness vampire-the-masquerade shield

@Trish Hmm. Source please. Is it from WoD: Combat (2d edition)?

Trish

15:39

@Baskakov_Dmitriy I think it was, yes... I can dig it up possibly - Vampire Bite demands an exposed piece of body as described when it comes to the maneuver bite in a grapple. SWAT gear doesn't leave that.

Baskakov_Dmitriy

@Trish Unless we are talking about penetrating a shield, it does not add soak dice. It effectively provides better cover against firearms.

And it would 1) Make it impossible to use a two-handed firearm 2) Definitely impact mobility

Trish

youprobably still have the vampire curl up in a ball of freaked out madness the moment the swat storms by throwing in a flashbang: That is nothing else but a can of exploding, burning metal dust.

Baskakov_Dmitriy

@Trish Then it is a game of winning or losing initiative. Vampires have Presence 2, SWAT has flashbangs.

We would have a lot of flees on both sides.

Trish

If only one True Faith person is on the squad, the vampire looses too.

Baskakov_Dmitriy

@Trish True Faith is rare. But one person is not enough, 1 die is not a lot.

Trish

15:46

@Baskakov_Dmitriy one die is not a lot, but IIRC True Faith negates any mind affecting effect on him.

Baskakov_Dmitriy

@Trish Not really.

@Trish IIRC, 2 ranks allow to spend a Willpower point to ignore Presence and Dominate for a limited time

4 ranks give full immunity

And 4 ranks is... a lot.

Trish

depending on book...

Baskakov_Dmitriy

OK, specify edition :3

Ah

Trish

A Demon's Faith = immunity to 90% of the WoD

Baskakov_Dmitriy

You are talking about the Hunters series?

Trish

15:47

And yes, Hunter "True Faith" also is like "immunity to mental carps"

Baskakov_Dmitriy

I am using V20 stats for vampires and W20 for Garou stats

@Trish Because it's a book about powerful hunters, probably? :)

Trish

Fera are much better suited to take down a SWAT squad than vampires because they have all the traits needed to take them down (save kitsune), while vampires need to have the right disciplins.

The point I would sign is: Vampire Shovelheads will have a tough time dealing with a SWAT Squad, and they will do well to thread lightly in any town they don't own... which is every town, because there are elders and those pretty much will own someone on the police, which in turn makes assaulting the police assaulting the elder. So... BAD times for them.

Fera on the other hand thread lightly because of the veil. They don't want to alert Pentax, but they will not hesitate to mow down the police if they have to on their way out.

Generally: In any RPG it is unwise to assault the Executive Branch of a state unless that state is notoriously weak and crumbling.

Baskakov_Dmitriy

@Trish Fera have Delirium. Typical Shovelheads are Brujah -- with Celerity and Presence.

Trish

I recall Brujah having Celerity, strength but not presence...

Baskakov_Dmitriy

@Trish Potence, Celerity, Presence

@Trish Dealing with the shotgun and assault rifle part... So, our shovelhead has a dodge pool of around 7. A Brujah shovelhead would be able to attack and dodge in the same turn. Soak pool is 3. SWAT members have 7 or 8 dice to hit, and are using assault rifles (7 damage dice) or shotguns (8 dice). I assume medium range. OK?

Trish

15:54

sounds good. I assume at least 3 SWAT able to fire through the door they would assault through...

and we assume the flashbang was a dud.

Shalvenay

acme brand flashbang :P

Baskakov_Dmitriy

@Trish anydice.com/program/c7b8

The output value is in health levels of damage applied to a shovelhead with one attack.

Trish

anyway the point in not attacking law enforcemen it is not because you might not win this fight, but because the reprimands that will come in a pretty deadly oposition shortly after unless you play something exalted, where that will only come when the Wyld Hunt appears.

Baskakov_Dmitriy

@Trish Wild Hunt is not smth that shovelheads are aware of.

Trish

Any exalted is aware of the Wyld Hunt...

Baskakov_Dmitriy

15:57

*Blood Hunt

(Move, Roach)

Trish

Oh, well, that explains the very short life expectancy of dumb Brujah.

Baskakov_Dmitriy

@Trish Oh, it really does. Along with many other things. It is such a good idea to diablerize a 4th Generation guy and get strong, yep?

@Trish Notice, BTW, how ineffective do all of the combat maneuvers except a normal attack to the head become.

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