TRPG General Chat

Adam

15:00

@kviiri in the novel Alamut by Vladimir Bartol, The leader of the fortress drugs his soldiers and then leads them to his gardens, which he has dressed up as the gardens of heaven. His soldiers, in their stupor, believe that he is actually capable of sending people into heaven for a short time. As a result, they willingly do as he pleases because they believe that he has been given a gift by the holiest of powers.

godskook

@kviiri I mean in terms of magnitude and means/end. Even Asmodeus himself, according to Pact-Primeval lore, is only evil as a means to a Lawful end.

Adam

It isn't so much mind control as it is deception.

kviiri

@Adam Yeah, it's a good novel. Coercion like that would work.

@godskook I'm not quite ready to draw hard lines, but those are good questions. I've tentatively accepted betraying another, innocent person's life to qualify as a sin, even if it is to save one's own.

Many sinners in the empire will have good intentions!

godskook

@kviiri did you see this?:

19 hours ago, by godskook

@GreySage, here's the prep-notes I had set up for the PCs for the second "mission" they were going to do this summer:

Episode names:

1.No soul is forgotten

Sarah "Manapaws" Lavoie, the half-Shifter mutt has always struggled coping with loss. Dutiful and agreeable, Manapaws followed her Father as a Druid mystic among the people. When she showed an aptitude for shaping incarnum, she gained fame throughout the Starpa as the first Druid in Starpa, since the scarring, to achieve this discipline crossover.

In my setting Sarah Lavoie was unambiguously evil. Low-grade, but to anyone who made the required knowledge checks, they knew she was evil. Equally so, she pinged on Detect Evil too.

kviiri

Yep, but's she's not the sort of evil to actively go out of her way to harm other people, right?

godskook

15:18

Depends on what you mean by "actively harm". Her half-rez antics were creating stupid(-6 Int on the template I was using) half-dead people who acted irrationally, while simultaneously ripping nature in her country apart, because she was too much of an emotional child to rationally analyze the arrogance of her own actions.

Trish

chuckles Ok, my The Dark Eye round seems to get a pair of Elves (a Wildnis runner and a warrior or shaper)... I so hope to get a knight from one of the other two players.

Then I will go to send them To Weiden (or is that meadows in english?)

kviiri

Have to go for a while

Ryan

@daze413 @Miniman since I know you both are usually in here, regarding my question that you voted to close as Primarily Opinion Based. Would that be the equivalent of telling me it makes no difference or in what way is it entirely up to me? (rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/104141/…)

kviiri

Thanks for the ideas and inspiration!

NautArch

@B.S.Morganstein I'm pretty sure that ranger question is Too Broad and borders on Read the book(s) to me? Maybe just narrow it down (if others agree) to what are the ranger types and where can I find them? The differences are enormous (just like every subclass)

B. S. Morganstein

15:31

@NautArch Happy to oblige, I wasn't sure of the best way to phrase the question, since I've never played ranger before, and only have access to a PHB when clearly more variants exist

NautArch

@B.S.Morganstein I may be wrong, but it seems like a really big ask and very difficult without just copypasta of each subclass.

godskook

@Ryan Without the context of specific gods potentially causing specific problems, I'm also really not sure how that question is answerable, at least in 3.5(which yes, I know the question is 5e, but I don't think choice of gods changed much at all between the two).

B. S. Morganstein

@NautArch Totally see your point. I'm just worried about changing it to "types" vs "versions" since, as I understand it, Ranger underwent some serious revisions after the PHB was released, and I worry that using "types" might not capture the significance of the change(s) I'm trying to understand

NautArch

@B.S.Morganstein What if it was "what and where are all of the possible Ranger classes - including UA?"

B. S. Morganstein

@NautArch That would work for me! I'll edit it now

NautArch

15:34

but @SevenSidedDie may say that the original question is fine :D

Ryan

@godskook so wouldn't that be an answer... "You need to talk to the new DM and see if there's any specific problems. If not then it shouldn't make any difference carrying your old deity over to the new game." ?

I just flagged the Ranger question (not enough rep to vote) as too broad and left a comment.

B. S. Morganstein

@NautArch Ok, I'll wait a couple minutes for some more feedback. Like ideally I'd have my original question answered the way its phrased now, but I can see your point of it being perhaps too broad. Let's give the community a bit more time, and I'll edit if others agree with your position!

Trish

@Ryan It is just... we can just give opinions on this, because all the rules that are there on it state "you can rebuild up to this point." - and the god part is... usually ignored unless it is a cleric, and even then it is often neglected.

NautArch

@B.S.Morganstein okay, i'll hold off on my answer since it won't address your current question as-is :)

@B.S.Morganstein and are you asking about Ranger as a class or Ranger as a Class AND it's subclasses

SevenSidedDie

@NautArch I think the original is fine. ;) More precision can sometimes be an improvement, but I feel like the problem there is clear enough (too many Ranger classes to keep track of!) and the scope is something we can tackle practically now (and though there may be more versions at some point, I expect it won't be an ever-expanding set).

B. S. Morganstein

15:39

@NautArch Just the class for now, though presumably the different versions would have different subclasses of their own. As @SevenSidedDie noted, it is definitely a problem of "too many to keep track of" so knowing where I can find the different versions should be sufficient for pointing me to their relevant subclasses as well

Unless there are subclasses which are not contained in those sources (if someone could confirm this being the case I'll happily ask another question on the topic, since I think adding that to the current question would definitely make it too broad)

Ryan

I don't follow that question though - wouldn't you have to factor in subclasses, multiclasses, and even different spell and gear combinations?

NautArch

@SevenSidedDie okay, I wasn't sure how to go about listing each class/subclass difference without a basic copy/paste of them. But maybe someone else has a good way of doing it.

B. S. Morganstein

@Ryan I'm just looking for the different versions of the class. Not the subclasses or specializations within each class, but (apparently) there are different versions beyond the PHB

Ryan

Might want to edit it then at least to say that, to me I read it as how many different ways can I create a Ranger

B. S. Morganstein

@Ryan Ok, I can try to make it clearer

godskook

15:42

@Ryan Honestly, I'm not personally too worried about hte administration side of things. On the practical side of things, you've gotten roughly the same answer(Mine, and the one that got on your question before it closed) twice. From a practical point of view, serving the original goal you posted the question to solve, do you really need anything else from the site? Or are you just worried about administration specifics at this point?

NautArch

@B.S.Morganstein ah - then I think markovchain answered it. I thought you were asking what were all of the subclasses for Ranger (in my mind, that's what a different ranger type is).

Ryan

@godskook huh? I have no idea what this message is supposed to mean or be asking me? Maybe you're confusing me with someone else?

B. S. Morganstein

@NautArch that question may be coming, though I do want to at least try to figure it out for myself once I know where to look. But would that not be too broad of a question anyway?

@Ryan edited my question, hopefully its clearer now

godskook

@Ryan, nope. That was for you. I tagged the wrong comment, but they're adjacent, so.....just scroll up slightly.

SevenSidedDie

@NautArch I'm picturing links/page numbers to their sources with an executive summary of how they're different. I agree that big copy-pastes would be unwieldy and hard to learn from.

NautArch

15:48

@SevenSidedDie Is asking what the differences are between a vengeance paladin and crown paladin a stack question? I may just be ornery today, but it seems like that's a 'read the book to me' thing.

Ryan

@NautArch almost any non group dynamics question would be a RTFM thing. And nearly every question on every exchange could be answered with some book somewhere. That's not really a good reason to close something honestly

BanjoFox

@NautArch RTFM :D

Put differently... it may be a "please reference XYZ Manual Page. 123

NautArch

@Ryan Yeah, I can see that (hence it may just be me being ornery today.) That's why I guess it's unclear to me where to draw the line on those. But in this case (no offense to @B.S.Morganstein) If it's just what are they and how are they different seems to not require anything but finding their location and reading them.

SevenSidedDie

@NautArch I get what you mean, and I know that feeling. Lamentably, “read the book to me” questions are technically on topic (although they still get closed for that reason sometimes, so it seems to be a point the community is still not fully settled about). But yeah, that'd be on topic. But it seems to be different, since “… there are other rangers, wuh?” is different in that they're not all obvious in one book.

NautArch

@SevenSidedDie Yup - and the clarification on that helped immensely.

Ryan

15:53

@godskook oh. yes and no then. I'm not exactly worried about the administrative side as much as wanting to make sure I understand the subtle rationality as to why it was closed so I can try to make better questions going forward

SevenSidedDie

@NautArch Excellent. :D

B. S. Morganstein

@NautArch @SevenSidedDie Precisely why I asked the question. AFAIK, until yesterday the ranger was the class found in the PHB. But apparently not..?

SevenSidedDie

(Related metas for the curious/citations, since I mentioned them):

8

Q: Can we have a RTFM equivalent in the Vote to Close options?

Often enough we get really low-quality questions that are obvious that the asker has not read the rules at all (vs. asking for clarification). What does "+6 to hit, Hit: 13 (2d8 + 4)" mean in a creature's stat block? is an example of this. Generally these questions seemed to be looked down on by ...

NautArch

@B.S.Morganstein and I didn't even realize the Revised Ranger wasn't just revised subclasses :)

BanjoFox

lol

Ryan

15:54

@B.S.Morganstein cool. I removed my comment if you want to remove yours

SevenSidedDie

15

Q: What Do We Do With "Read The Book To Me" Questions?

Somewhat of a related question to Why Are Our 5e Questions Terrible? - questions from people who haven't read the book yet, and want us to do it for them. This is a little different from the discussion in Should a question be judged on its level of "expertise"? because these questions don't even...

discussion

Ryan

I asked a RTFM question yesterday... it got me a badge and the person who answered it has received 20 upvotes thus far. Just throwing that out there.

SevenSidedDie

(There may be more, but these are the two I remember off the top of my head.)

NautArch

@Ryan people often upvote those (which is counterintuitive) because they're simple and obvious.

diego

@B.S.Morganstein For most cases the Ranger is the version found in the PHB, both of the alternatives are from Unearthed Arcana, which are not legal to use in organized play, and outside of that require DM approval

B. S. Morganstein

15:56

@Ryan removed

@diego Might be useful to add an answer if you don't think the existing answer is sufficient

Ryan

@NautArch I would suspect its because they're easy to evaluate for accuracy thanks to often including a citation

NautArch

@Ryan it's a vicious cycle!

GreySage

@NautArch A vicious cycle of people getting answers to their problems, and other people feeling good about getting upvotes. Insidious, truly

NautArch

@GreySage Well, vicious in my own petty mind of people asking questions that are RTFM level and promoting more of that because upvotes. I see what you're saying, but I think ultimately it promotes laziness.

Just because I can ask someone to do my work for me doesn't mean I should.

BanjoFox

now you guys have me questioning whether or not I should ask my In Nomine question :p

NautArch

16:09

@BanjoFox questioning is treason.

BanjoFox

@NautArch only if questioning Computer ;)

NautArch

@BanjoFox Computer is always listening.

BanjoFox

@NautArch also true :p which means that S.E is Treason :p

One does not simply question Banjo's knowledge of Paranoia ;)

Niek Bergman

/me appears from a corridor.

Howdy folks :)

NautArch

howdy @NiekBergman

Delioth

16:22

@BanjoFox Knowledge of inner workings? That sounds treasonous right there.

B. S. Morganstein

On the chance that my ranger question is closed, what recourse do I have to reopen it? I, among others, do think it's answerable in its current form, so preemptively, what can I do to prevent it from being closed as too broad?

NautArch

@B.S.Morganstein you have those of us who will vote to reopen :)

Niek Bergman

Hi Naut :-)

Hmm, looks like my favorite D&D spell reference site forgot to update their SSL certificate.

NautArch

@NiekBergman or did they get a C&D from WoTC?

B. S. Morganstein

@NautArch Ah of course, obviously (mumbles to himself about asking a silly question on chat)

Adam

16:24

@NiekBergman hello!

Niek Bergman

@NautArch Don't think so. Strange thing is, the site is sending a Strict-Transport-Security header, so Firefox obeys it and doesn't allow one to go further... Chrome on the other hand seems to allow me to ignore it, which is kind of scary.

Delioth

@NiekBergman Chrome lets you do a lot of things with warnings, because it knows that developers can fail (or to let developers test things on local network before getting all the certs)

NautArch

@NiekBergman Heh. I've got an issue with Chrome and Boston Public Library Overdrive access. I can only sign-in with Explorer to check a book out.

Niek Bergman

@Delioth That kind of seems to defeat the entire point of Strict-Transport-Security though.

Trish

UFF... One of my prospect players just said "I have a lot to do and little time at the moment. What does it [The Dark eye] offer [as PC options]?" as response to possibly meeting up tomorrow afternoon for character build session with the rest of the troupe. I know she has little experience with RPG and none with the system: You thing I can just... throw the moloch of 300 pages Core book at her? I think that would be a bit too much for her to handle.

BanjoFox

16:29

@NiekBergman Security has a natural way of impeding progress ;)

Delioth

@NiekBergman Hm... guessing the site doesn't have HSTS implemented correctly then (they send the header but will still do traffic on HTTP)

Niek Bergman

The only thing I can imagine is that the Strict-Transport-Security header wasn't cached yet, and after forcibly connecting won't get applied because the connection is already insecure.

NautArch

@Trish ugh. postpone until they do have time? THat's not fair for you or the other players.

Niek Bergman

Well, you're technically not disallowed from still doing traffic over HTTP if you've implemented HSTS. It's just an indication to the client that they should always contact the site over HTTPS.

godskook

@Ryan After thinking about it, the only questions I see on this stack where the right answer is "no seriously, ask your DM", that we actually allow, are inter-personal problem based questions. Your question has no inter-personal conflict as a basis, and in fact, has no "real" basis at all. You're attempting to pre-empt a problem with us that you might not actually have.

BanjoFox

16:31

@NiekBergman -- you are also presuming that the resources you are trying to access have a) patched their stuff and b) actually care about maintaining their SSL or c) are not trying to access a site which has been MitM'ed

Adam

@Trish considering she has "a lot to do and little time at the moment" throwing a 300 page rulebook at her and saying "check it out!" I think will come across more...unsavory than helpful.

Trish

@NautArch good point... but character building takes ages with the system, so at least getting the others started is an option... I am out of town for two weeks... :/

godskook

@Ryan basically, all other "ask your DM" questions, that I can think of, justify their place on this stack with "I didn't want to ask my DM because X, Y and Z lead me to believe that asking him first would cause a fight".

Trish

@Adam True. I can deposit the books at her friends (rest of the group) though, so if she finds time in the time I am out of town...

BanjoFox

@Trish -- There is nothing wrong with summarizing for individual players that really need it.

heck I used to do 1 to 2 page "quickstart guide to creating a [insert character here]" guides

NautArch

16:34

@Trish not a terrible idea. THat way they're not pressured, aren't feeling 'punished' , and may come to you better prepared than you originally thought.

Adam

@Trish What I mean is that, she is asking you, the more experienced person, for help. And handing her the book and telling her to study it isn't really being all that helpful

Trish

@BanjoFox Sadly... that's not really working with "the Dark Eye" - out of the 300 pages of the 'core book', all of them are dedicated to Character generation. The combat and skill rules have their own 300 page book, as does magic and devine stuff.

BanjoFox

@Trish yeah.. that sucks :( I would say do your best?

Adam

@NautArch or, what I think is more likely, they'll push it off due to the other stresses in their lives and will have not opened the book at all. Or some will have and some wont have, which isn't all that much better.

Trish

@Adam True.... I jsut can't offer to be in town for about 14 days, so I will have to rely on her friends having got most.

BanjoFox

16:36

Gaming requires comitment.

Adam

Why not just wait till you get back to get the game together? Is there a reason to hurry?

BanjoFox

Adam makes a good point as well >.>

NautArch

@Adam Then some players have gotten a leg-up, but others are the point that you were expecting them to be. no?

BanjoFox

not to put words in anyone's mouth but if there are 300 pages of just character-creation it may need a few weeks to complete ;-;

Trish

@Adam I gave ther the very broad overview what the game does offer... which is the whole broad band of a medieval society. Yes, TDE allows you to start as a farmer. Or a beggar. Or a miner. OR as a shining noble knight with title, sword and horse.

Adam

16:41

@NautArch exactly, so you still have to do the same work explaining everything to the ones who haven't gotten the leg-up. Just to a smaller number of people. If the others who are involved are experienced with the game, they might be able to help, but if everyone is relatively new, you also can't trust that the information got into their head correctly anyway.

Trish

@BanjoFox most of the book is listings of races, cultures and jobs that get tacked together. The actual Chargen chapter is 20 pages, then there are maybe 30 pages full of traits/feats that can be bought.

BanjoFox

@Trish -- Still.. that is a lot to be considered.

Delioth

@Trish So point them to the 20 page chargen chapter and 30 pages past that, and then hand them the book for the weeks you're gone. 50 pages of required reading over 2 weeks is much more manageable than 300

And if they use tables to summarize it becomes even better

Adam

@Trish Then I would just give your player a quick summary of a medieval stereotype or two that can be built using the system, and then either give them a link to an article/video that goes more in-depth, or ask if they want to read the book.

Or, if you feel a bit more like giving them some assignments to do while you are gone, ask everyone politely to look over the book in your absence. in addition to giving them the summary/link

BanjoFox

@NautArch -- I want you to take me out back and shoot me for Treason :P I am getting sucked BACK into a discussion I no longer wish to be part of LOL

Trish

16:45

@Delioth actually... you are just required to read through... uhm... the "how to build a character" part of the chargen chapter... the rest is pretty much... "pick your options"

NautArch

@BanjoFox Come with me, Citizen. But I can make no guarantees what choices your clone will make.

BanjoFox

LOL

Adam

@Trish In that case, I agree with @Delioth. Giving them a 300 page rulebook to look over in your absence is less than bueno, if you get my drift. Asking them to skim a 20 page pamphlet before bed is much more reasonable.

BanjoFox

@NautArch -- Better plan.. lets just vote to delete the answer and it will all just go away ... ;-; rocks back and forth quietly

Everything with a one line description: List of Races, List of Occupations, List of Skills...etc

NautArch

@BanjoFox out of curiosity...link?

Trish

16:50

@BanjoFox Let me just skim how many professions there are...

BanjoFox

@NautArch Um... no?

@Trish I summarized Orpheus, Wraith, Werewolf, and Mage into one-page documents. It takes time but it ends up being worth it.

The Oracle

2

Q: Does "Ask the DM / GM" equate to "Primarily opinion based?"

I've noticed that in some cases people vote to close as Primarily Opinion Based when they think the only possible answer is "Up to the DM". There's a slight twist in this community where it's not always the opinion of the Asker; its often the opinion of the Dungeon Master / Game Master. In those...

discussion close-reasons

Trish

@BanjoFox 4 races of elf, 5 races of dwarf, 8 'races' of human, 5 races of lizardmen. + Orks, half orcs and goblins... 49 cultures... and pages 94 top 300 are Classes...

some classes take 2 pages, most about a page.

Delioth

@Trish But do they have tables (proper tables or just names)?

Trish

Each class has a table listing what benefits it grants... and a text explaining what the class is about.

BanjoFox

16:55

@Trish -- honestly... it sounds like players should buy one or two copies to share.... that way they can RTM

Trish

@BanjoFox Yes, it is good to have a copy... lucky there is a PDF.

BanjoFox

Even better. hand out the PDF and ask them to read. it would be way too taxing on everyone to walk them through

Delioth

@Trish Ah, I believe I meant something more like a table listing the classes. Even if it's just name or name+summary

Trish

@Delioth that would be a... LONG work

They don't include a table of all classes anymore...

anyway. prepping the first meet with the others.

Delioth

Well yeah, but reading through a list of ~200 classes is easier to look at and say "That one's name sounds cool, lets look at details" than the 206 pages worth of only full descriptions

godskook

18:12

Its a little too quiet in here.

....a little too (Quiet, Easy, Raph!)

►

BanjoFox

pppplllts

godskook

@BanjoFox Huh?

NautArch

drama: possible, but not likely, end of campaign tonight.

BanjoFox

the sound of silence breaking

@NautArch -- which campaign?

godskook

@BanjoFox Pretty sure this is the sound of silence breaking:

DJ Record Scratch - Sound Effect

►

My extensive experience as an 80s child tells me so.

3

BanjoFox

18:17

@godskook -- my universe my rules :p

godskook

@BanjoFox O'rly?

BanjoFox

@godskook -- Ya'r'yleh

NautArch

@BanjoFox our main campaign. Last session there was mistake made while generally under the influence. We walk into a town at the very end of the session and we see a drake moving about the street. The barbarian, whose player was definitely not sober, decided he didn't like lizards and went to grapple it.

it was fairly obvious that this was a Bad Idea. Especially seeing how angry the DM was getting.

godskook

@BanjoFox Nah, we defeated him with the help of C'thulhu

NautArch

We don't do Pvp (or haven't done it) at the table, so Id idn't want to start a fight so instead just said "I try to stop him". DM gives disadvantage on the grapple, ut it succeeds.

BanjoFox

18:19

@NautArch -- oh... THAT campaign :3

NautArch

@BanjoFox hehe. that's the one :)

so yeah, tonight we continue. Plan is to summon a celestial and have it bring gifts of money and jewels (i think) to the warlock. Basically all the wealth the Barbarian has. He may or may not give away a magic item that he has to sweeten the pot.

we'll see if the player follows through, but if the DM just takes the stuff and doesn't try to work with us to resolve or tells him he has to send his player to the Front Lines, then he's leaving the table.

BanjoFox

@NautArch -- oie...

Delioth

@godskook Weird, this is the sound that plays every time someone breaks the silence in my world:

Disturbed - The Sound Of Silence [Official Music Video]

►

NautArch

@BanjoFox yup. awkwaarrdd.

godskook

@Delioth Talk to @BanjoFox, you can't both own the "world/universe"

Delioth

18:23

@godskook I reject @BanjoFox's reality and substitute my own

godskook

@Delioth, @BanjoFox as epic fights between two people who both believe they own reality, this is pretty boring.

kviiri

@godskook Thanks for the inspiration earlier. I did a bit more brainstorming with my other RPG party and the Mind Flayer idea definitely pays off.

Delioth

@godskook Maybe Banjo decided to accept my reality? (also your image is blocked on my work network >.<)

BanjoFox

LOL

@godskook Actually my sense of reality is my own. @Delioth's sense of reality is theirs.

Delioth

@BanjoFox This is going to quickly become metaphysical, I can feel it.

kviiri

18:35

@godskook So now they have a deal with Asmodeus: they do psychological experiments like Stanford prison experiment, Milgram electric shock experiment etc, for the immediate gain of turning normal people into evildoers, and the long-term benefit for discovering more and more efficient ways to bend people towards evil. As a reward, they get to harvest the minds of the subjects once done.

BanjoFox

@Delioth -- Or we could simply agree to drop the subject entirely :)

kviiri

An entire duchy turned into a massive human(oid) experimentation colony, just for studying how fast virtue breaks when tested.

Yuuki

@kviiri But will there be more rigorous controls? Because the design for those experiments, IIRC, wasn't very sound.

Delioth

@BanjoFox Oh, I was planning on it. Part of me was hoping others would get all esoteric about it, but I don't have the capacity to do that (I just struggled for a full day on authentication issues in testing and found out that all I needed was a , null to fix it).

Yuuki

I mean, Zimbardo participated in the experiment.

BanjoFox

18:38

@Delioth -- Oh man... don't get me started on troubleshooting silly issues... x.x

Yuuki

That's a big no-no if you want accurate and unbiased results.

NautArch

@Yuuki that experiment was freaking nuts

kviiri

@Yuuki Sure. They're just the inspiration :)

@Yuuki But rest assured, the experiments will be inhumane by design. And indwarfe, inelfe, inhobbite etc.

Papayaman1000

But will it be ingnome?

...ingnomee?

kviiri

Definitely.

godskook

18:53

@kviiri A fan-made thing to think about with Mind FLayers:

giantitp.com/forums/…

kviiri

"Ikea Tarrasque" :)

godskook

Mind Flayers, from my perspective, are all about the genetic engineering.

BanjoFox

hahah...

godskook

In my setting, Changelings are a "failed" experiment that Illithids keep breeding true because they're more subservient than their doppleganger forebearers, and a shapeshifter is a useful infiltrator for tracking down enemies.

BanjoFox

Now I am imagining how one goes about efficiently packaging a Tarrasque into a series of boxes...

godskook

18:59

@BanjoFox considering a Tarrasque is less than the sum of his parts, you'll need a lot of boxes.

BanjoFox

@godskook -- This IS Ikea we're talking about :P

godskook

@BanjoFox I'm just saying, technically, the Tarrasque has infinite parts if you try to dismantle him.

At least the ones from that thread do, as well as the referenced 3.5 base tarrasque.

BanjoFox

@godskook -- boxes of holding?

godskook

@BanjoFox Still finite spaces :P

BanjoFox

@godskook -- How dare you use logic and science against me!!! Rage

godskook

19:06

@BanjoFox Not the first time someone's been mad at me for that :P

BanjoFox

@godskook -- hahah... I bet :D

kind of like my co-worker from earlier "if you understand how it works then of course it makes sense"

Delioth

@BanjoFox That's a tautology right there (XKCD)

godskook

@BanjoFox Reference?

BanjoFox

@godskook -- what reference?

Yuuki

You know what they say about tautologies: when you speak in tautologies, tautologies are spoken by you.

godskook

19:10

Did you mention something about your co-worker earlier?

BanjoFox

@godskook no

godskook

Ah

BanjoFox

@godskook uses logic against me, co-worker uses logic (ala tautology) to explain a thing.

both are similar in aspect, hence "kind of like"

... syntax error

Papayaman1000

19:58

bash: logic: command not found

In other words, just your average D&D world

BanjoFox

don't you just hate when you have a password hash but have no idea where to start your decoding process?

Papayaman1000

Yep

nwp

20:19

Don't you just hate it when the compiler ignores all your comments?

Delioth

I prefer it when my compiler ignores my comments. Don't want it going slaying the dragons, the code needs those to work right.

BanjoFox

BAD MAGIC NUMBER

nitsua60

@kviiri Again--it depends if your group wants to "take a session off," but I really like it. Things like this are fun ways (IME) to try out a new class, let someone try GMing for a night, try a mini-side-quest that might just be lethal without "risking" mainline characters.... I hope they go for it =D

godskook

20:42

The level of frustration I have solving a problem is directly proportional to the amount of languages I have to read simultaneously to understand what's going on.

nitsua60

@godskook Biblical hermeneutics not your thing?

godskook

@nitsua60 I'm moreso thinking debugging a problem that may or may not be CSS related, but the relevant HTML+AngularJS is constructed via a C# method embedded into the HTML file that's using reflection to pull configuration data off the object-types.

nitsua60

@godskook Moar FORTRAN!!!

godskook

I'd prefer pure FORTRAN to this, I think.

At least then I don't have to switch grammar/syntax every other whitespace.

Delioth

@godskook This stack of operations disgusts me

Please tell me this is an example stack and not in actual use

godskook

20:49

This is actual use.

Delioth

@godskook My deepest sympathies.

godskook

And.....I think I just found two files that are almost literally the same code.......

Yuuki

@godskook Remember the rule of three. As long as this terrible terrible code you've been handed isn't repeated three times, it's not your problem and you aren't paid enough to deal with this so hand it off to some unfortunate intern.

/s just in case anyone thinks I'm being serious.

godskook

@Yuuki I'm the unfortunate intern.

Yuuki

@godskook Yeah, I am technically living that feeling...

Delioth

20:53

I'm glad I'm not actually an intern and that my boss is the one to deal with headaches caused by terrible clients

Like when he implements page security... and then 6 months later learns that, because there was one page that was raising a violation, they commented it out instead of doing the 5-minute fix

( I mean, there are dozens of XSS vectors, including permission escalation from an unauthenticated user to full admin, in addition to sql injection and other fun stuff... that's had fixes sitting in QA since last November )

jwacalex

ok. after double checking the contents an the channel name may i'm sure that's the rpg chat

Delioth

@jwacalex Well, both sets of people (rpg-er's & programmers) have to slay dragons <strike>occasionally</strike> constantly. It's a pretty unifying quality.

jwacalex

i've just to to make sure that i'm in the matching context. sometimes such contexts breaks ruin my reddi experience. :D

godskook

Yeah.....so, part of the problem is that somebody tried to branch a file back 3 months ago, without using branching, just in a new file in the same folder, with a slightly different name, but not referenced in the code anyone else was working on.

He did some tinkering on that code, while the in-use code saw quite a few revisions itself, but more bugfix-level stuff.

This does not look like it'll be fun to re-merge......

GreySage

@godskook wow

jwacalex

21:10

at least it sound you have version control. i've worked a at company that has filename_TIMESTAMP_INITIAL.ext version control on a shared network device

godskook

@jwacalex Let's not get into a competition over who's hills are steepest or snowiest :P

jwacalex

trauma therapy? :D

nwp

Looks like I'll be DMing on thursday. Nobody on the table has played before, including me. I made some prep notes that anyone is free to comment on.

I'm mostly afraid of TPKs. Ideally there should be no deaths.

godskook

@nwp have you DM'ed before?

jwacalex

you can fudge rolls everytime or fix some hp

nwp

21:18

@godskook no

jwacalex

have you talked to your players about expectations?

nwp

oh, and I'm somewhat afraid the players will breeze through the prepared stuff in like half an hour

godskook

@nwp rpg.stackexchange.com/a/104179/35386

nwp

@jwacalex No. The expectations are "Let's come together and try playing DnD".

jwacalex

if the players are through you can say "ok folks, that was it. thanks for playing. i've to prepare the next thing. let's have dinner"

godskook

21:19

@nwp chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/62622/… - this link is specifically if you care to de-linearize your plot any.

Delioth

@jwacalex Alternatively, improvise (NOTE: Requires a pretty hefty understanding of the system/balancing acts and a good bestiary)

jwacalex

but if there is a fight, it might take some time. 6 sec ingame time of fight might take about 3 minutes discussion, announcing and rolling

godskook

@nwp honestly, I take a firm "don't point a DnD session at your players unless you're willing to shoot a PC" approach, myself, but that gets into "wrong type of fun" areas, so I'm not pressing it.

jwacalex

@Delioth or that, yes. but it depends on the group
@nwp regarding tpk and deaths you should talk about a mutual agreement. eg. no deaths, or deaths may happen etc

Yuuki

@jwacalex Depending on whether you expect further contact with these people, you could alternately finish with "I hope you all get eaten by shoggoths, peace out mofos" and moonwalk out of the room while wearing sunglasses and blasting vuvuzela sounds from your phone.

jwacalex

21:21

@Yuuki no further comment ;)

Delioth

@Yuuki Wait, if that's extraordinary... how do you normally say goodbye? Have I been doing it wrong?

Yuuki

@Delioth Normal goodbyes involve fog machines. Only regulars deserve the fog machines.

nwp

@godskook I'm following most of it, but I am breaking the session 0. Mostly because meeting opportunities are rare and I don't want my players to quit without having played at all.

jwacalex

@nwp some shore agreements are fine too. you might not need a full session 0

Delioth

@nwp Note that Session 0 can occur also as a prelude to Session 1 (i.e. with as little as a "take 5" between)

godskook

21:23

@nwp I'd still try to do a 5-15 minute session-0-blurb, even when you're crunched for time.

jwacalex

if you read through all the whine at some rpg related discussions, it can be solved in 90% of all cases if the people had open their mouths and talked about the issues prior during or after the game. it's always the same issue. rants encourage your players to give feedback. to everyone. to you as dm and others as pc

Delioth

It's important to set expectations. If you just say "hey we're getting together to play D&D" and then start right in raw, you might not have a good game. Some people might come in expecting something over-the-top and a little silly, others might come in expecting a super-srs grimdark warhammer-esque campaign, others might expect to be epic anime heroes. If all three are at the same table, it's either hilarious or terrible, but some people won't be having fun. No Fun == No Session 2

But if you set the expectation that it's going to be a whimsically silly campaign at the start, you can know that everyone who shows up is ready and okay with that concept, and ready to have fun on that theme.

godskook

Its, imho, especially important to set an expectation that all PCs share "foo" "bar" and "whistlehopper" as goals, and those are PRIMARY character attributes around which almost everything else revolves.

jwacalex

i would also add meta stuff to prevent "that's what my character would do" things

nwp

The thing is their biggest experience with any table-top RPG is having seen it on Big Bang Theory. Using the guide and talking about Exp and level up is not appropriate for players who have no clue that levels exist in the game.

Delioth

21:29

@godskook (I.e. Everyone needs a reason to be on Compass Island and help the Noteastindia Trade Company deal with a kraken)

godskook

This is a problem almost completely unique to tabletops, notably D&D, as most other formats include their "foo" "bar" and "whistlehopper" goals right on the tin.

@nwp yeah, that list is over-exhaustive for your purposes.

Yuuki

@Delioth Oh don't worry about the kraken. It'll be killed offscreen sometime between the second and third movie and only be used as a pithy line about the world getting smaller or something.

godskook

@nwp But for instance....

Character Party fit - That 'loner' character? Are they allowed? If so, at what limits? Is it ok if a PC just tags along ONLY to do combat & avoid anything social? D&D is a social based game, you may wish to encourage your players to create characters that play well with others and that will fit with the party. On the other hand, you may want to be mindful about players potentially bullying other players into playing races & classes they do not want to play.

Delioth

@nwp But do they have experience with video games with some similar things (i.e. any computer RPG- Baldur's Gate, WoW, Skyrim, etc; a ton of vidya games have some concept of "level up" or growth)?

jwacalex

@nwp to add something to @godskook answer regarding party fitting: ask your player why their characters would interact together and on what level this interaction might happen

godskook

21:36

@Delioth this sounds like a single-session game, so there's probably not going to much, if any, leveling or growth regardless.

nwp

@Delioth Very little. Maple story and Diablo 2 as far as I know and they are not very RPG-ish.

@godskook I hope it won't be.

godskook

@nwp Well, good luck then!

Delioth

@nwp Eh... Diablo at least has leveling and skills and such. Not entirely a direct insert, but at least is a similar concept

Can't say about Maple Story though

Yuuki

IIRC, Maplestory also has leveling.

Although it gets to the point where it might be days or even weeks in between levels.

That game was grindy as hell.

Plus it had a sizable EXP loss on death, which meant you'd grind up on monsters like 20 or 30 levels below you.

Delioth

@Yuuki That's any MMO[...] though (or at least, I haven't found any not-grindy ones)

Yuuki

21:43

@Delioth All MMOs are grindy, yes. But then there's Maplestory.

Like holy f--k, then there's Maplestory.

Delioth

@Yuuki Though some do a pretty okay job at breaking the monotony (Blade & Soul you get to leap around and do combos a ton, D&D Online you can do a ton of different quests, I don't play many other MMO[...]'s because they got too grindy)

Yuuki

Back when I played Maplestory, you didn't do quests because A) they didn't give you much EXP and B) there weren't that many. You'd just grind up on low-level monsters because monsters at your level would often kill you in three or four hits (and they'd gang up on you). So because you were grinding low-level monsters, you wouldn't get much EXP for each one. Which resulted in long grind times.

godskook

Path of Exile is pretty good until you hit end-game, depending on if you count Diablo-clones as MMOs or not.

Yuuki

IIRC, I took me more than a month to get from 25 to 30 back when the level cap was 80.

Granted, I didn't poopsock it but still.

Delioth

@Yuuki And people played it? Damn, I'm almost tempted to make a game that just tortures you in the grind. Apparently people will play it if it looks nice... we can call the game "Masochism"

Yuuki

21:48

@Delioth It was probably the best looking and most fleshed out free-to-play MMORPG of its time during its heyday.

I mean, there was Runescape but like 80% of its content is locked behind a subscription.

Delioth

@Yuuki Ah, so we need something new and flashy? How about hats? We can use hats as part of the grind and you can unlock them? That's a new concept that people will grind for hours on, right?

godskook

@Yuuki KoL was the same era, and while "low-tech" was a pretty sweet game.

Yuuki

@godskook I love KoL and still play it now and then.

user15026

23:05

@Yuuki Poopsock? Do I dare ask?

Yuuki

@Ash Probably not.

user15026

shudders

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