TRPG General Chat

Shalvenay

00:00

ah. I was wondering if there was somewhere off-Stack that'd work for you for a 1-on-1 discussion...

Papayaman1000

Well, Hangouts works. Or Discord. Or e-mail. Or...

What do ya need?

Shalvenay

Discord is fine

Papayaman1000

ok so

I'm the same pretty much anywhere

uh

Shalvenay

ah. I'm the same on Discord as here too but you need the tag for that and mine is 4683

Papayaman1000

6000 for me.

Shalvenay

00:05

OKies

Papayaman1000

aaand done

Miniman

00:24

@nitsua60 Yeah, I was thinking about Yawning Portal (before I had to disappear) based on what you said about children of the 70s and 80s, nostalgia, and so on.

daze413

@nitsua60 don't look at me, I'm about as clueless in gating as the next guy :x

dang spammers are getting smarter...

BESW

During the heat wave look in on elderly relatives and neighbors. If they've become avatars of the sun, bow and sing the old hymns again.

Tweeted by MagicWeather on June 13, 2017 at 12:07 AM

Ben

00:59

@daze413 I finished Nil's timeline. There was a bit of a hiccup - I only met him at 2 bandit camps instead of the three, but I still finished it.

Storyline* I should say

daze413

01:19

@Ben Do you mean the moon dungeon?

Ben

No, H0D

Ben

01:41

@daze413 Was it you that I was talking about H0D with? You and @trogdor, I think.

Shalvenay

hey there @daze413 btw

daze413

@Ben ahhh, Nil, the bloodthirsty bandit killer. I only met him once, clearing out a camp. Haven't seen him since.

Ben

Yeah, he doesn't seem so bad.

Someone was suggesting that he was a bit more dodgy than he let on

Hey @Shalv

daze413

@Shalvenay heya! how's tricks?

@Ben I get a creepy vibe from him. He loves killing, but he'll only do it on bandits, but not machines. Considering how much more awesome it is to kill machines than bandits, I have no idea what he's talking about haha

Ben

@daze413 Without giving too much away, yeah, he seems pretty fixed on the target, but he not unbalanced in any way. He has a moral compass and all... he's an "old habits die hard" kinda guy

daze413

01:53

@Ben ah, that must reveal itself as his story progresses. Too bad I already wiped almost all the bandit camps, in game

Ben

@daze413 Yeah there's only 3 he appears in. I'm not sure if it's random or not, but he will cover all 3 meetings in one - you just have to talk to him a couple times

Either way, I still like him. He enjoys the hunt, and he is fixed in his ways, but he's not a bad person

BESW

> Sight beyond sight. Spend a fate point to gain metaphysical insight into a particular person, event, or object, represented by an aspect you could not have discovered otherwise.

Ben

In other news, my bag-o-bolts rusty cyborg glaive is getting a new arm. With an integrated blade.

Shalvenay

@daze413 OK here. pondering the size of dragonborn eggs.

and how well or poorly a metal quarterstaff would work

BESW

Has 5e established that dragonborn lay eggs?

nitsua60

02:04

Why haven't quarterstaves (historically) been made of metal?

Ben

@BESW Yes

Shalvenay

@BESW yes, it has

@nitsua60 value of metal, and to a lesser extent possibly being too heavy for effective use

BESW

@nitsua60 Because wood is cheap and easy?

Ben

23

Q: Do Dragonborn come from eggs?

We have been adventuring, and in our latest quest, we came upon a witch that had a couple of Draconic eggs in a cooking pot. They seemed intact, and a blue one even gave off an electrical sensation. The guess was that they were Dragon eggs. However, as there are many Draconic-type races in 5e, t...

daze413

because metal vibrates painfully if you're holding it while striking something?

BESW

02:06

Also, there's maneuvers you probably couldn't do if your staff didn't have a certain amount of tensile strength.

nitsua60

There ya go, shalv =)

daze413

I have an all-metal bolo at home... I hate using it. I much prefer the hilt to be made of wood to absorb some of the shock.

thats probably why Qstaves are metal?

Ben

Along the development of the storyline, the "shoddiness" of the Glaive's cyborg arm did develop a trait that we referred to as "Sharp Edges" which turned out to be quite useful in several situations. Now that it is being re-built, that is now been integrated into a retractable blade.

daze413

@Shalvenay make it new infant sized? maybe as big as a head?

Shalvenay

@daze413 yeah, we were thinking "large newborn or thereabouts"

daze413

02:10

of course, it depends on the lineage, if the parents are known to be big babies (literally), it'd be a tad bigger?

BESW

Eh, my headcanon will always be that dragonborn have certain mammalian secondary sex attributes (look at the artwork) because the dragon god Io had to borrow Moradin's humanoid matrix in order to achieve the right balance of elemental and astral qualities.

And thus also give live birth.

Ben

@BESW Counterpoint: Platypus

BESW

@Ben Countercounterpoint: D&D's setting is nowhere near as inventive as Australia's.

6

daze413

hahaha

nitsua60

@BESW Australian Tourism Board: We guarantee 6-8 combat encounters per long rest!

Ben

02:13

@nitsua60 Generally during said long rest

nitsua60

@BESW Your headcanon threw me into despair while driving today: remembering that elves have lifespans of many centuries, and dwarves have lifespans of many centuries, if humans are elf-dwarf hybrids, they're also horribly fragile/weak/degenerate ones =(

Ben

Also: Fun fact, the platypus' bill is not actually a mouth.

nitsua60

@Ben =)

Ben

@nitsua60 We are the "Danny Devito" of the cross-breed.

nitsua60

@Ben [crosses fingers that's a Twins reference, not that Danny DeVito has some degenerative illness...]

BESW

02:16

@nitsua60 They each have unrelated recessive lifespan traits?

Ben

@nitsua60 Yes

I realise I should probably have defined that for anyone under the age of 20

BESW

02:44

@Ben I hate to break it to you, but that film's almost 30 years old.

KorvinStarmast

@nitsua60 I note that the knee jerks are out in force tonight

Shalvenay

hey there @KorvinStarmast

KorvinStarmast

Howdy

I just noticed your two year old question about the spider niceness in your dungeon

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast the "non-Lolth spider deity" question?

that was actually from an unrelated and mostly abandoned worldbuilding effort

KorvinStarmast

Yeah, it gives me perspective on the adventure idea I downloaded ...

Shalvenay

02:49

ah

speaking of...let me get my spoil-lair thawed out (@nitsua60?) and shall we pick that discussion up?

nitsua60

[fires up the heaters]

Ben

@BESW Yeah, I'm 28 and didn't see it until I was like, 12. So still applicable

Shalvenay

chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/58363/… @nitsua60

KorvinStarmast

I am looking for a @nitsua60 answer about the technically max amount of attacks on one person

nitsua60

@Shalvenay Thanks. Got it.

Shalvenay

02:51

@nitsua60 thank you :)

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast Didn't I already do that one... involving, like, six hundred monks hit-and-running? (Edit: it's soooo many more than that....)

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast -- I take it now's not a good time for us to pick up our adventure-discussion though?

nitsua60

Why yes, yes I did:

6

A: How many creatures can attack (melee) a single creature at once (assuming all creatures are medium sized)?

Can all of those 8 PC's surround and attack the enemy creature (following a square 5x5 feet square grid) in one round? Yes, trivially answered on PHB p.191. How many members of the army can attack a single creature at once? All of them. Assuming two dimensions, swords, and no movement...

Joel Harmon

@nitsua60 because quarterstaves literally grow on trees?

Shalvenay

hey as well @JoelHarmon

Ben

02:54

Oh, that reminds me. In our game last night, we came into a conflict with a group of NPCs, accompanied by a floating Nano (the sci-fi variant of a sorcerer). He was floating 10 ft in the air, and pretty much unreachable by the party. However, through an epic feat, the barbarian managed to jump off another NPC, and grab the floating Nano.

He then proceeded to ad "Nano" to his equipment list

Joel Harmon

hey @Shalvenay, how are things?

Shalvenay

@JoelHarmon OK here, as for you? heard from Reibello at all lately?

Joel Harmon

he's been sick lately

Shalvenay

@JoelHarmon awww :/

KorvinStarmast

@Shalvenay @mxyzplk has already pointed out what he thinks is a flaw in my approach. I'll let it ride and see what the responses are. If it's a bad idea, so be it. Back in OD&D and 1e days we got all kinds of kicks out of finding silly ways to make magic and magic items do nonsensical stuff. It was a form of fun, eh?

Shalvenay

03:00

@KorvinStarmast yeah -- I noticed

The Oracle

-2

Q: Proposing a [cheese] tag that is a category of rules exploits/fun

With this question in mind, there are others, I'd like to suggest a cheese tag as a clear identifier of people looking for fun exploits. This particular question, and the comments in response, is why I am asking. We support a plurality of play styles. Munchkin/cheese merchant is a play style....

discussion cheese

BESW

Half an Hour till we go live! http://twitch.tv/GameratiTV #GirlGang #FateFilms #twitch https://t.co/vMB8uprOQa

Tweeted by NatchuralOne on June 13, 2017 at 2:30 AM

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast -- I take it now's not a good time to talk?

KorvinStarmast

@Shalvenay Hmm, how many updates have you made to the document since we last talked?

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast just the level of the headmistress -- I don't believe we got all the way through it to begin with though

KorvinStarmast

03:06

OK, let me find that doc and see what I've got for notes.

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast reinvited to the spoil-lair

The Oracle

04:05

0

Q: Could The Oracle post a ping-back comment on referenced Questions?

I think it would be useful for questions to have links to any meta-discussions about them. The Oracle seems like a fine way to handle this in an automated fashion, as it already posts new questions to Chat. Could The Oracle be updated to automatically post a comment like "This item has been refe...

feature-request

Ben

04:17

0

Q: Does the Doppelganger apply bonus damage from it's Surpise Attack feature twice?

The Doppelganger gets extra damage if it surprises an enemy and hits it. Surprise Attack. If the doppelganger surprises a creature and hits it with an attack during the first round of combat, the target takes an extra 10 (3d6) damage from the attack. Since the Doppelganger gets 2 attack per...

dnd-5e combat

cc @doppelgreener

The Oracle

0

Q: Was it really necessary to mod delete this? Why are there votes?

I am not convinced that voting would not have taken care of this answer. Beyond that, providing a link to a XKCD comic rather than an SE meta struck me as bad form. The justification for the mod hammer was that a devil's advocate position is not a valid answer. Really? Sometimes, someone ...

discussion moderation

SmokeDetector

04:45

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Few unique characters in body, no whitespace in body, repeating characters in body, repeating characters in title: Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa by Mike on rpg.SE

Ben

UUmm... what

trogdor

06:37

@Ben I believe it was both of us you were talking about that game with yes

@BESW this here yeah

@Ben I think that was me,... he just creeps me out mostly, his insistence on the killing thing makes me think that he could be worse than he might actually be

I have no in-game proof I have seen that he ever does worse than you must have already seen him do- IE kill bandits with possibly just a little too much glee

SmokeDetector

07:35

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Username similar to website in answer: How can we handle "firing" our DM? by raito tec on rpg.SE

daze413

08:20

@trogdor I watch machines kill each other with equal or, dare I say, even greater glee. Once converted 2 watchers and watched it fight a sawtooth. Fun!

They didn't stand a chance, but it was fun!

trogdor

but the thing is, you are killing machines in a video game

he is a character in a video game killing "people" and loving it

they are fake people to us, but in a silly way they are real to him right?

daze413

I enjoy shooting corruption arrows at bandits, then watch them kill themselves, albeit with less satisfaction.

@trogdor i don't know. Since DMing my first TTRPG, I've developed an NPC-empathy: "I prolly shouldn't be a jerk to this guy, someone came up with his whole backstory, personality and everything. Probably has index cards for him. Nah, I'll leave him alone."

obviously, the hunting lodge challenge where you had to override 2 sawtooths and then take down a thunderjaw was the most fun for me.

trogdor

08:49

@daze413 but someone came up with a seeming sociopath or something

that is my hangup

doppelgreener

08:59

thanks for the rapid spam response folks, as always. i had a few good flags to handle when i woke up this morning. :)

doppelgreener

09:46

@Ben [sweats] (how are people finding out these things!? this totally ruins our element of surprise!)

BESW

@doppelgreener 🎶 We see you when you're shifting / We know when you're a fake...

doppelgreener

10:06

@BESW Noooo! Not that song! [shrivels]

BESW

10:26

Cosplay: Tar-Ancalimë, the first queen of Númenor.

Ben

12:06

@doppelgreener well, there is a collection of books with such information...

doppelgreener

@Ben whaaat?? Who'd write so many books about doppelgangers? Can you give me their names and addresses, and possibly a very good quality full body photo of them, preferably a few from different angles? No specific reason, just curious.

I'll review their publications and may visit them to give them feedback, the photos are definitely just curiosity though, really, definitely.

NautArch

13:07

I'm starting (read: have already started) to dislike Crawford's tweets and how the contradict each other.

doppelgreener

Oh dear.

Adam

@NautArch Unfortunately, he's just a man. He can make mistakes and change his mind over time.

NautArch

@Adam True. It's the danger also of making 'official' rulings under twitter. It's easy to answer, but harder to actually think about the right answer and stay consistent.

like this vs that

unless it's a case of general vs specific (hiding behind something)

doppelgreener

that's pretty specifically contradictory

NautArch

ha, or it's simply this

doppelgreener

13:14

oh, hm.

phew

NautArch

at least i parsed it right :)

still trying to find a tweet from JC about spellcasting with Blindsight only

Anne Aunyme

yeah, twitter rulings are the worst

doppelgreener

interesting that blindsight cares about cover. (counterpoint: daredevil)

Adam

Another problem is that he has a deep, arguably perfect understanding of the rules. When he says things on twitter, that perspective may not transfer over directly. Especially in situations where the rules aren't exactly intuitive.

doppelgreener

@Adam well, tautologically perfect. he is defined as a rules source, so everything he says is the rules.

NautArch

13:17

@doppelgreener yeah, i was using that as reasoning that Blindsight doesn't equal seeing

Adam

What constitutes blindsight is left pretty vague. For example, I could see how echolocation wouldn't see a guy behind total cover. Or blindsight granted by enhanced smell as well

IIRC, the only things that aren't blindsight are actual sight and tremorsense

NautArch

@Adam Would you say that Echolocation and enhanced smell would fulfill the requirement "X you can see" for spellcasting?

kviiri

Days like these are ones when I wish I had that political intrigue RPG already.

Adam

If that was the in world reason for the creature's blindsight, I would probably say so. I think that's a cool application of the ability, I don't see it actively harming the game any, and the difference between the term "perceive" and "see" in common parlance is sufficiently negligible to me.

NautArch

Yeah, I have a feeling i'm being too literal (shocking!) But when I searched for Monsters who only have blindsight, NONE of them can cast spells and that seemed oddly coincidental.

kviiri

13:26

Our centrist cabinet was dissolving in the wake of the second-largest party (by seats in parliament, third-largest in vote tally) changing its leadership to a far more conservative one, but now the situation has defused itself as the old leader of the party defected with over half of the MPs...

Adam

@NautArch Adult dragons have blindsight, and there is a variant rule on them in the Monster Manual that allows them to cast spells.

NautArch

@Adam They also have regular sight. There are zero creatures with ONLY blindsight that can cast spells

Adam

Besides Oozes, what other creatures only have blindsight?

kviiri

Skeletons, at least.

Adam

Skeletons have darkvision in 5e

BESW

13:30

Grimlocks.

Anne Aunyme

isn't there a kind of intelligent ooze somewhere who can cast spells?

BESW

Last year we had a weird conversation in chat about whether grimlocks would be restricted to braille systems.

NautArch

oozes, cubes, more...i'll do my search again :)

kviiri

@NautArch Elder Brains!

NautArch

animated armor, flying sword, rug of smothering, blights

kviiri

13:33

It even has Dominate Monster as an innate spell - and Dominate Monster has that "you can see" stipulation.

NautArch

there's more, i'll stop at B

Adam

@kviiri Yes! You're right! And Elder Brains can use their Psionic Powers to cast spells

How shameful of me to forget the almighty Elder Brain

kviiri

So the only sensible interpretation is that blindsight counts as seeing.

NautArch

@kviiri Elder Brain?

kviiri

@NautArch Volo's Guide to Monsters, page 174.

It's a mind flayer thing.

NautArch

13:36

@kviiri a - didn't check volos!

kviiri

Meanwhile outside politics - my RPG party has a game today, with one planned absence and one nasty surprise absence. I invited an extra player from my other party to play an NPC party member - and he got ill today too. Hard!

So with only 3/5 players my moderately hard quest will need to be scrapped, and I was also planning on having THE REVEAL this session... that'll have to wait as well!

(well, more like "postponed" than "scrapped")

Adam

@NautArch It's the most perfect organism. A glorious giant brain with the collective knowledge of an entire illithid community. And when they grow old and begin to wither, illithids sacrifice their own brains, merging it with the elder brain.

NautArch

@Adam "they" or "we"? hmmmmmm

but based on that, I think I need to retcon a couple of answers....maybe.

probably

kviiri

Your friendly neighborhood DnD 5e trivia databank at your service! tips hat

Yuuki

I still want to play lawful good mind flayer tourist.

Why is he lawful good? Because he's on vacation. You leave work at work.

NautArch

13:52

answers cleaned up/removed. wheee.

kviiri

We've been talking of having a lawful evil campaign where the PCs are the ruthless, but loyal team of henchmen for the bad guy. That could perhaps increase the scope of troubleshooting to include actual shooting.

nwp

@Yuuki Lawful good involves more than not killing innocents at sight though. Being too lazy to kill would probably still count as chaotic evil.

Yuuki

Well as a tourist, he's a guest. Of course he's going to obey the laws.

No one wants to go through the hassle of dealing with immigration while you're on a travel visa.

nwp

But he wouldn't go out of his way to protect the law or care when breaking the law is convenient and has no consequences for him.

kviiri

Lawful good in essence is more than just behaving. At least the way I've understood it, it's not just what you're doing, it's what you're committed to doing.

Yuuki

13:56

And as one of the few illithids capable of taking vacation days, he'll tip generously at restaurants because he knows he's in a position of relative financial stability.

kviiri

(I dislike the DnD alignment matrix and wish it'd burn, though)

Yuuki

I agree, not a fan.

In my all-interest-seems-to-have-disappeared-into-the-ether campaign, I told my players to not even bother filling in the alignment box.

nwp

It is super powerful for just being a 3x3 matrix though.

kviiri

In what sense?

nwp

It expresses a lot considering the low amount of information in it.

Sure the information is mostly stored in associations, but still.

kviiri

13:59

I don't think it does. Quite the contrary, I think many of the categories allowed by it are very vague.

ShadowKras

Alignments are guidelines, not restrictions.

nwp

unless you are a cleric/paladin

NautArch

@nwp not in 5e for paladins

kviiri

Yes, but I wouldn't call it a powerful system.

ShadowKras

then you have a vow, you are still unrestricted by your alignment.

@NautArch nor in pathfinder's default setting, Golarion. Each paladin has a code that is specific to their deity.

For instance, paladins of Shelyn are against killing sentient creatures unless strictly necessary.

Or even destroying art.

While other paladins could care less about paintings.

eimyr

14:03

kickstarter.com/projects/sigilstonepublishing/…

@BESW @doppelgreener ^

kviiri

There are overcrowded alignments, True Neutral being a common offender. It has those people who make an effort to avoid all extremes of good, evil, law and chaos, and those people who don't really care for any of those and just do whatever feels best at the time. Meanwhile, other categories are very hard to define, because Lawful encompasses not only conventional law but moral codes and even personal vows.

doppelgreener

Cool RPG Stuff: Cthulhu Dark Kickstarter; Clink: an RPG of Mysterious Drifters and Risky Coin Flips

4

eimyr

thx

I'm sure David will appreciate

Dr R Dizzle

In my head, most people are lawful good. They obey the law, and they do what they can to help others.

Sociopaths are neutral. Psychopaths are evil.

doppelgreener

@david WHOEVER YOU ARE YOU'D BETTER APPRECIATE THIS (BUT IF YOU DON'T THAT'S OK AND WE'LL STILL LOVE YOU)

eimyr

14:05

omg

David Schirduan, Clink's creator?

ShadowKras

lol

He thought you were referencing the link to a friend.

kviiri

You can even have weird contradictions, like a strong personal conduct to oppose all governments - is that Lawful for being a conduct, or Chaotic for opposing centralized rule? Or similarly, a vow to protect the weak whatever the circumstances: Lawful for being obedient with the vow, or chaotic for putting the vow before earthly authorities?

Adam

I think of neutral good as people who follow the laws, but don't really care about them. They recognize that they help people, but are more inclined to do the right thing because it's the right thing to do.

doppelgreener

@Adam sounds like DO-GOODER TALK.

kviiri

@DrRDizzle In DnD terms, I consider most people to be neutral or lawful neutral. Good is reserved for those who have actually made a commitment to goodness. Like, if the angels came around and asked you to fight for Heavens, the good are the ones who'd take up arms.

ShadowKras

14:08

aligment discussions are very subjective, though. Specially when we starting using real life personalities as examples.

kviiri

@ShadowKras They're subjective because the system isn't all that good ;)

doppelgreener

Especially when the D&D alignments don't describe contradictory policies.

NautArch

I tend to think about it (not that i've ever had a real chance to, though) that personal alignment isn't really necessary. It's morea bout the morals/mores of the society you're in and how it reacts to your actions.

Adam

@doppelgreener Only if you're a hero. Neutral good average folk just go through their day, try to be nice, and think that being a good person is fulfilling.

doppelgreener

In Which Robin Hood is Every Good And Lawful Neutral

Jun 11 '14 at 6:46, 2 hours 40 minutes total – 19 messages, 3 users, 3 stars

Bookmarked Jun 26 '14 at 13:15 by doppelgreener

ShadowKras

14:10

Like the Al Capone donating money to several charities.

@kviiri only because we want it to become objective.

NautArch

i don't care if you think you're good. I care about your actions. Do something that I think the society/your god won't like, then you shouldn't be surprsied if there's a negative reaction to you next time you're in a town/dealing with your god.

ShadowKras

we want aligments to be restrictive, and (Imo) they shouldnt be.

I don't prevent LG characters from torturing an enemy.

doppelgreener

we can also interpret robin hood as chaotic evil for his actions against innocent (but wealthy) individuals in spite of the law, lawful evil for following a code, chaotic neutral for looking out for himself, etc.

kviiri

@ShadowKras Uh, it pretty much has to be objective in DnD. At least the earlier editions where it has serious mechanical effects.

ShadowKras

they know they are LG and they will probably roleplay their remorse.

if they don't, then its on them being bad roleplayers.

In pathfinder, your aligment is how the multiverse sees your character. There are only very specific rules that can change your aligment, but your actions don't (though there is an optional rule to do so)

nitsua60

14:12

Creaking my way out of my front-porch rocking chair, I'll say that if you take Alignment as wholly expressed in 0e, it makes perfectly good sense. It's when you port forward only some parts, but not the whole, that it turns into the mush of nonsense and falderal that it currently is.

Adam

@doppelgreener I don't think of Robin Hood as a very selfish, "looking out for myself" character, but perhaps I haven't been exposed to him enough.

ShadowKras

A paladin who breaks his vows might still be LG, he just broke his code.

kviiri

I liked the 4e version of the alignments more: there's Lawful Good and Good for those who have seriously decided to devote their life to serving the greater good, Unaligned for non-sentients and common folk without particularly strong moral convictions, Evil for world-domination -style baddies and Chaotic Evil for demons and other destructionists.

Anyway, I got to go so I get to play today. Toodle-doo

Adam

@kviiri Take care! Have fun!

ShadowKras

@nitsua60 i agree, we have to take aligment as the first step, not the journey.

nitsua60

14:14

@ShadowKras I'm not sure what you mean, and therefore I'm not sure you're agreeing with what I'm trying to say.

ShadowKras

If my player comes to me and ask "hey, i want to change my alignment to LN, i dont think my character is LG anymore" i will say "alright, write that down".

NautArch

@ShadowKras neat - that's exactly how I see it!

doppelgreener

@Adam Chaotic neutral characters "follow their whims, holding their personal freedom above all else. Many barbarians and rogues, and some bards, are chaotic neutral." Robin Hood follows his whims and values his personal freedom, and lives freely in the forest with his Merry Men without concern for submission to the law.

MadMAxJr

I watch Chaotic Neutral players for two key behaviors. Chaotic Stupid and Chaotic Jerk.

I've had public tables where someone just wanted to leverage it as a rules backed reason to be disruptive or a jerk to other players.

ShadowKras

and Chaotic i-am-the-joker.

nitsua60

14:17

I'm saying that if your setting has as a core premise the idea that the 'verse itself is fragile and currently in a tug of war between the forces of Law and of Chaos, and you say to players "declare which faction you're aligned with, or neither. Just know that no matter which of the three you pick, two others aren't going to trust you," then just-about everything that follows makes a lot more sense.

nwp

@doppelgreener He doesn't just live in his forest though. Living peacefully in his forest is not enough for him. He must venture out and fight the evil. That makes him good.

MadMAxJr

I use alignment as a guideline. There are some hard rules on it, but We use phrasing like, "Chaotic Good with Neutral tendencies."

doppelgreener

@nwp And yet, feeling that he must venture out and fight evil doesn't in any fashion exclude him from matching Chaotic Neutral. So we can justify him as both or either.

MadMAxJr

Alignment worked against someone who made a compelling argument to play a bipolar character.

doppelgreener

Your Robin Hood is Chaotic Good, mine is LGNGCGLNNNCNLENE.

NautArch

14:18

@doppelgreener and his decision to steal from ANY rich to give to ANY poor is also suspect.

Dr R Dizzle

@kviiri If I'm being completely honest, I tend to pretend that alignment simply doesn't exist when I'm DMing. I find it limiting

nitsua60

Chaotic (as originally conceived) isn't "I'm going to steal from the shopkeeper without caring," it's "I'm actively working to ensure that the sun doesn't come up tomorrow, that the planet spins apart as gravity fails, that the Weave unravels and magic unleashes its wrath on all that exists."

ShadowKras

@nitsua60 and i agree, i was complementing what you said. Your aligment is how the multiverse sees your character, its how spells behave against your character, how clerics of different aligment will treat him, how devils and angels will decide if they attack or negotiate his soul.

doppelgreener

@NautArch Indeed. Sounds pretty methodically evil, like a Lawful Neutral or Lawful Evil individual.

MadMAxJr

I find it a useful handrail for new players but it's something of a handcuff to veterans.

nwp

14:19

@doppelgreener His intention is to free people from evil, not to gain power and replace it. That is why I would consider him good.

NautArch

@MadMAxJr and that's why i want to see it more as You Be You - but expect that your actions will be judged by society(if they find out about them) and your god (if applicable).

MadMAxJr

And ultimately, if Alignment really, really bothers you as a GM. You're playing the wrong system.

There are way better tools if you need that moral grey area or shifting personal ethics.

doppelgreener

@nwp That's a reasonable assessment! That's a reasonable way to evaluate him as Good. There's also characteristics by which we can reasonably evaluate him as Neutral, or even Evil. The point here is the alignment system doesn't provide clear-cut mutually-exclusive options.

MadMAxJr

I've had players do blatant acts of evil and then try to turn around, "But in my mind, I'm the good guy."

NautArch

THe other thing is no one is one alignment all the time, especially if we're role playing a living creature (or are one ourselves.) We make decisions based on what's happening at that time. There are always factors that influence it, and in general we may lean in an alignment direction, but mistakes get made, too. ANd mistakes have consequences.

It doesn't really matter what you think you are, it matters what you do.

nwp

14:24

I guess even the Evil World Destroyer considers himself good because he ends all suffering permanently.

ShadowKras

@MadMAxJr the champions of corruption player companion (pathfinder) actually describes the "i am the good guy in my mind" as being evil. It discusses aligments and separates each evil alignment into 3-4 archetypes for behavior.

MadMAxJr

He did not like it when I informed him the 'gold standard' for good in my game doesn't really allow room for murdering unknowing, innocent collaborators selling legal goods to a corrupt merchant who has destabilized the region.

Since that game I have made it clear during orientation/session 1 with new parties that "Here is how I use alignment in this game. Here's three examples of what's good, neutral, evil. Here's a few words on law and chaos. I don't allow NE, CE. LE only if you can sell me on a really cool character concept."

ShadowKras

Example: the dictator is a lawful evil guy who believes he must do what he must do for the good of the people, even if they hate him.

doppelgreener

@ShadowKras sounds typical chaotic neutral to me though

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

MadMAxJr

Evil characters with tight standards can be interesting. Not always as a PC, but I just couldn't say no to somebody who wanted to be an Inquistor who is /very/ much into burning witches.

ShadowKras

14:27

@doppelgreener i reduced the half-page column to a single phrase.

doppelgreener

@ShadowKras good work

ShadowKras

But "what he must do" is actually keep the law as strictly as possible, remove bad apples, etc.

MadMAxJr

I like how d20 Modern tried to approach this topic. They just gave you three blanks to define ideals your character aligns with. You could write in law or good if you wanted. But you could also write in specific organizations or more grey concepts.

Adam

@ShadowKras He believes that the best way to help people is a strict system of law and order and he will be at the top of that system

ShadowKras

and not "i do whatever i want" typically defined as Chaotic.

MadMAxJr

14:29

Unfortunately the rest of d20 modern didn't quite work the way we wanted.

ShadowKras

@Adam exactly.

MadMAxJr

Although I like how in Fate you can write "I am a huge jerk." as an aspect and get a ton of mileage out of it.

ShadowKras

it's also the main guidelines of the hellknights (a LN organization that has several orders ranging from LG to LE).

doppelgreener

Basically D&D's nine-alignment system doesn't model the real world at all. Also, as BESW's once observed, this is a world in which you can measure the alignment of any given action or individual with universally objective certainty (mainly using magic).

MadMAxJr

My second table is dealing with the Hellknights in the Emerald Spire superdungeon.

They're not jerks, but they are charging the party 40% of all items brought out of the dungeon in taxes.

BESW

14:31

Factional alignment in a multiplanar war is about the best sense I've ever been able to make of the axial notion.

ShadowKras

@MadMAxJr im gming the emerald spire to my group, they are at the end of second level.

MadMAxJr

Part of the agreement for purchasing an adventuring contract in their lands.

ShadowKras

40%?

Dude i was overcharging them 10% in town as taxes and they nearly killed me.

doppelgreener

@BESW Good morning!(?)

BESW

Technically yes.

MadMAxJr

14:32

It's covered in the early part of the book. You have to either ally with the resistance or they buy a contract. And it says the tax is like 40%

My party has made a cache outside of town of things they don't want taxed.

Still, by paying dues, they've been rather glad to have the protection of heavily armed 'peace by force' troops when needed.

They don't have to worry about ninjas in the night or anything.

ShadowKras

Ah yea, they are forbidden from actually exploring the dungeon, as it is a bandit den on their records. But one of the characters is a hellknight trainee so they get some air to breathe.

MadMAxJr

Party had mixed feelings about seeing every bandit in the region nailed up to trees on the walk to the city.

But it's effective. Very little banditry to worry about.

ShadowKras

if i recall, there are no bandits in 10 miles of the fort.

MadMAxJr

Yup.

ShadowKras

they also had to get permits to do any professional work in town.

MadMAxJr

14:35

And while they did overthrow the town council by force, they have reorganized the local government and the citizens have exactly what they need. There is mixed opinion on the fact there is slavery, but eased somewhat by the fact the hellknights do not tolerate torture and inspect the well-being of slaves regularly.

ShadowKras

prices ranging from 10 sp to 10 gp based on each profession, the more dangerous, more expensive the permit is.

MadMAxJr

There's the halforc outside town who can make you masterwork items, but he's 150% of the price due to restrictions.

I think it's rigged so that your party can't just go back to town and buy major upgrades. I think they want you to rely on the dungeon for almost all gear.

ShadowKras

how did you handle thornkeep?

I didn't want to introduce it at all.

MadMAxJr

I haven't run that table in a few weeks. Thornkeep.. Is that the name of the big settlement before the spire?

ShadowKras

so i put it about 20 miles farther than it actually is, so the closest town is actually the fort.

yes.

MadMAxJr

14:37

I've just run it as the book shows.

ShadowKras

there is next to no information about it on the adventure, but its detailed on another book.

BESW

> Technoloogie. You're pumped so full of nanotech that once per session you can gain complete control over a piece of computerised tech by spitting on it. Your control lasts until the spit dries.

MadMAxJr

Ah, then I'm not really using it.

ShadowKras

For adventurers, thornkeep is 10 times better than the fort, so if i introduced it exactly how it should be, they would never return to the fort.

MadMAxJr

My party sort of took over the first floor of the dungeon, setup some ruimentary lights, and make use of the remaining fortifications.

They did not like the spider den.

At all.

ShadowKras

14:39

my group made a deal with the boss of first level, so they can walk in there freely as long as they leave him in peace to hunt around that area.

but they are already planning on killing him.

MadMAxJr

My group really wanted to keep the goblinized emerald automoton.

ShadowKras

Mine had to do at least 5 trips so they could finish the first level. They had a lot of trouble with lights.

The first trip was nearly a tpk, only one escaped out of four.

Second trip everybody survived, but they had to run. Third they negotiated with the boss, fourth they attempted to betray him and had to ran, and on fifth they finally made a pact of mutual non-aggression.

nitsua60

@doppelgreener Yeah, but these days it's really hard =)

ShadowKras

They were simply unprepared for a darkvision-stalker with a composite longbow that could 1-2 shot nearly everyone in the group.

NautArch

ShadowKras

14:45

Despite an npc telling them "i would lit the entire place with torches", they believed 2-3 movable light sources were enough to handle the place.

MadMAxJr

"Why does my light only go about five feet?" "Yeah, about that. Magical darkness."

"ON THE FIRST FLOOR?"

"It's a superdungeon."

"It's super bull#$%& is what it is."

ShadowKras

lol

that darkness is superbad.

my players are traumatized by that.

MadMAxJr

My players ended up setting fire to most of it due to the excess of tinder debris.

ShadowKras

but seriously, if you drop torches around corridors and near doors, its not that big of an issue.

doppelgreener

@nitsua60 I can't tell if making a bottled sprite provision industry would be a good thing or a bad thing, but I'm sure a bottled sprite would be able to tell me.

nitsua60

14:48

=D

ShadowKras

each of them had like 10 torches on their characters (class kits) and finished the first level using like...12 torches and 6 sunrods

i mean, if the objective was to lit the place, candles are 1 cp and burn for an hour.

Anne Aunyme

I started this dungeon as a player, but now we are stuck because of irl disponibilities

nitsua60

@ShadowKras you think they should have considered candles in a place where torches only illuminate 5'?

Anne Aunyme

too bad, our team concept was awesome

we managed to make the 0th level floor boss give up without fighting, and without even trying to...

I don't remember about the darkness, though, the DM may have forgotten them...

ShadowKras

15:10

@nitsua60 because candles are really cheap and would illuminate the same as sunrods (5 feet).

nitsua60

@ShadowKras my only point is that I wouldn't be surprised if a player didn't think to check how much a candle would illuminate, given that the torch only illuminated 5'. Certainly, if you said "any light source, no matter how cheap or powerful, will illuminate 5'," it's a different story.

ShadowKras

@nitsua60 well, they discussed the issue with one of their contractors and he suggested that.

MadMAxJr

"Your pen light does not light up five feet!" "But that's the smallest unit of measurement in the game!" "Fine, all ants are now five feet long. Roll initative."

ShadowKras

and they knew that torches, lanterns and sunrods illuminated only 5 feet.

Dr R Dizzle

So far, I've been running my campaign's encounters using only verbally communicative distances. For encounters that I know that are going to happen in advance, is it genuinely worthwhile drawing them out on grid paper?

MadMAxJr

15:13

For DND/PF, it largely assumes grid combat. You can do narrative, but some of the more combat build characters may feel their investments aren't paying off as well.

Dr R Dizzle

Fair enough. A follow up question: Where can I buy large amounts of gridpaper :P

MadMAxJr

Get a reusable wet-erase mat for meatspace games.

amazon.com/Chessex-Role-Playing-Play-Mat/dp/B0015IQO2O

ShadowKras

@DrRDizzle this question is relevant

last 10-ish sessions of my pathfinder group, i havent used a grid.

Adam

@DrRDizzle this video might be some help to you.

Also has a lot of sources on where you can get the materials he is talking about

Dr R Dizzle

I know for a fact that my next session is almost certainly going to open with a pretty big encounter, so I think I'll plot out some gridpaper for that and see how it goes.

ShadowKras

15:18

paizo's flip map line is pretty good aswell.

nitsua60

@DrRDizzle I have one of those $5 packs of "packing paper" so that I can slap down a huge piece of paper, sketch out something quick, doodle in places, players can jot lots of things.... I don't worry too much about the grid.

(But I do have a pair of chessex mats that are pretty nice, too. I usually use the hex-side for regional mapping in a persistent campaing, though.)

doppelgreener

15:43

@DrRDizzle this post is irrelevant but will make you smile. (hit play)

godskook

Something that could work really well is a clear mat with gridlines over drawn maps

Dr R Dizzle

16:35

@doppelgreener I don't know what I'm watching and listening to, but I know that I love it.

ShadowKras

17:07

@godskook isn't it harder to obtain scale-sized drawn maps?

godskook

@ShadowKras, maybe? Depends on the artist, I suppose. And by "drawn" I mean "hand-drawn, by DM"

ShadowKras

for hand-drawn i prefer a flip mat, like the blank ones on the link i posted earlier.

i have two of them, one from pathfinder beginner box, and the flip mat: basic, they are really useful even for non-combat situations where i need to make notes for my players (like writing down initiative order).

godskook

That's essentially what I use now.

What I'd really like is a flatscreen monitor(s), with a stylus-like tool that let me set the layer rapidly while writing on the screen.

Cause while I [mild expletive redacted] at hand-drawn maps, I'm REALLY [heavy expletive redacted] at computer-drawn maps.

In Which Robin Hood is Every Good And Lawful Neutral

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