TRPG General Chat

Lord_Gareth

00:00

@BESW I may be getting a second question (and/or a third) on transitioning groups from D&D style character creation (with its high individual burden) and/or running campaigns with only the GM and one player

BESW

31

Q: Spoilt for choice: helping traditional-system players adapt to narrative-control games

My group teethed on D&D 3.5 and loved 4e, but now we're eager to take advantage of FATE's more narrative- and character-driven philosophies. However, on our first (DFRPG) game last night, my players frequently seemed spoilt for choice: faced with "what do you want to do?" instead of "which of the...

25

Q: How do I explain stress to a d20 crowd?

In the next month or so I'm going to start running the Dresden Files RPG soon with a group that has most of its experience in D&D 3.5 and 4e. We're all new to FATE, and I tried to explain the stress track to one player today. I think he understood the mechanics of how to use the stress track, but...

gm-techniques dresden-files fate new-players stress

one-on-one

Lord_Gareth

Badass

I don't suppose you have one of those with suggestions on how to remember to keep aspects public and remind players to invoke and compel them?

BESW

5

Q: New to Fate: how to manage all aspects at play

Newbie Fate GM here, I will soon GM my first ever session. Seeing how important being aware of all aspects at play at any given scene is, how do you keep track and announce all the various aspects currently at play? Do you use post-its? Hand out sheets of paper? Enumerate loudly and have players ...

gm-techniques fate-core new-gm fate-accelerated aspects

15

Q: How can I keep track of Aspects and Powers?

I'm going to begin running a Dresden Files Roleplaying Game campaign in a group that has no Fate or Fudge experience (myself included); we've largely been running D&D 3.5 and 4e. I'm concerned about tracking the many aspects that will be flying back and forth (scene aspects, aspects placed throug...

dresden-files fate powers tools aspects

Lord_Gareth

Excellent. Danke!

BESW

17

Q: How do I know when aspects are "hidden" from my players?

Well, I'm quite new to Fate and today we had our very first session, we had a lot of fun but aspects confused us a lot. I made the areas so my players would fight a Titan on the forests, one of the areas had a river on it and my player asked me if he could use his "Magical Tactician" aspect to f...

fate fate-accelerated aspects

22

Q: Do you have to reveal your NPC's aspects?

Important NPCs may have hidden aspects that PCs are supposed to assess somehow before using them: can such a NPC invoke one of his hidden aspects without the GM revealing it to the players? Example: Let's say that Lenny is a drug-dealer working for a local crime lord that PCs are trying to take...

gm-techniques dresden-files fate aspects

Lord_Gareth

00:08

Now if only we could explain why Camelot Trigger got so much book space that it wasted on awful mech rules

Timeworks makes up for it though

Ben

Bah! It's not working. [Humph]

Lord_Gareth

[randomly remembers the Yo Momma joke written by Shakespeare]

That line is oddly reassuring to me

BESW

Hmm. I've got ideas about a mecha variant for Long Live the King of Monsters percolating, but they won't settle down.

Miniman

@BESW I keep thinking about a hero variant inspired by One Punch Man (something along the lines of "the hero randomly kills one monster per turn), but not coming up with anything useful.

BESW

@Miniman Yeah, I originally wanted to include a "1d3 Investigators" reference or variant, but it just didn't work.

Shalvenay

00:26

hey there @NautArch

and @Chemus too

NautArch

Howdy @Shalvenay

Shalvenay

what's up?

NautArch

Dungeon testing?

Just putting the kiddos to bed

Chemus

@Shalvenay [I'm not really here, I'm Chemus' bot, sent to collect the conversation here for nefarious for use later]

Shalvenay

@NautArch I am doing some dungeon testing yes

NautArch

00:28

@Chemus you arent working for a mind flayer... Are you?

The Oracle

1

Q: What's to be done with the "stochastic characteristics" question?

How do we tie the stochastic characteristics of conflict resolution into a statement about the nature of a game? Is occasioning a lot of odd behavior. It's drawn automatic comment-flags a few times. A number of those comments are users arguing (in 600 chars or fewer) why the question is good/b...

discussion specific-question

Chemus

@NautArch Oh! Ummm...er...no?

Adeptus

Bundle of Holding currently has 13th Age

I'm tempted to buy it, based on what I've heard here. But, I don't know if/when I'd get to use it, so I'm a little reluctant...

BESW

First draft of my mecha variant for Love Live the King of Monsters!; would appreciate feedback:

> MECHA VARIANT
If you're playing a mecha game, you can choose during character creation to roll on Table D (below) instead of Table C.

If you have at least one Mecha Feature, you start with three charge points and these two abilities (they are not features):
- Overclock (if you would lose a Feature, you may lose 2 charge points instead)
- Chargin' (sacrifice this round's attack action to gain 1 charge point)

D. MECHA FEATURES (except for rolls of 6, ignore duplicate results and roll again)
1. Zap! (spend 1 charge point to re-roll attack)

Skyler

Howdy folks, wanted an opinion on a mini-variant of vanilla 5e combat I wanted to use for 1-on-1 duels

doppelgreener

00:35

@BESW At first I thought it ought to be Mechas vs Monsters... then I realised that would be, like, a Gundam vs Gundam game

Shalvenay

@Skyler shoot

Lord_Gareth

I LIVE

doppelgreener

(Mechas vs Supermega Hydrazoid would be fun.)

Skyler

basically instead of rolling initiative and doing turns back and forth, do the pc and npc action simultaneously and have them contest their rolls. The higher roll goes through first

Lord_Gareth

@nitsua60 I lurk in the Not A Bar for when thou art prepared

Skyler

00:38

The setting for this is roughly like a gladiatorial bout and if its a success maybe ill use it elsewhere

doppelgreener

@Skyler there are actions that don't involve rolls, aren't there?

Miniman

@Skyler What do you mean by "contest their rolls"? How do you see this working if, for example, they both attack each other? Or if they both cast spells? Or if one attacks and the other casts a spell?

doppelgreener

i'm not a D&D 5e player, just picked up stuff

Skyler

@doppelgreener usually its a DC for those isnt it?

nitsua60

@Skyler You could use the "players make all rolls" variant, but just make sure you get the math right.

Skyler

00:41

@Miniman yea, though the rules of the match also may lend themselves to contesting in other ways

like a skill check

nitsua60

@Skyler But we've dived deep too soon, perhaps. One thing you're hoping to achieve is getting away from the A-B-A-B... progression. What else?

Skyler

basically the particular fight I have in mind involves something to the effect of capturing a protected amulet or etc from the other fighter

Miniman

@Skyler No, I mean, how do you see this working? As in, I don't understand at all how this is supposed to work.

Skyler

the easiest way for most people would to knock out the other person then take it

oh ok

so lets say they both attack, the person with the higher attack roll does the damage first

BESW

I'd ask, what is it about the existing combat system which dissatisfies you and leads you to want to make these changes for duels?

Ben

00:44

@doppelgreener Godzilla vs Mecha-Godzilla?

BESW

That's the ground floor for evaluating the usefulness/success of rules: what change in gameplay experience are you hoping your new/different rule will cause?

Miniman

@Skyler And with spells? Also, Extra Attack?

BESW

Apr 4 '16 at 22:46, by BESW

I find that The Big Three Plus One are useful focusing questions for worldbuilding and homebrew, and even for basic GM prep, just as much as they're useful for whole-cloth game design.

Skyler

@Miniman low level atm, but it goes in order of highest numbers,

@BESW for the one on one its like a person does something, then you do something, and your actions are not in step with each other

with more than two people I dont think you can solve this on a tabletop

at least easily

I want to try and test the idea of simultaneous action and immediate response, kind of almost like a fully interactive bullet time

Ben

@Skyler Ok, so I'd like to just put this down, to hopefully capture what everyone is trying to understand

Skyler

00:48

it also (I think) will give me a chance to have some pretty cool narrating

Ben

You want to create a type of system that removes the A-B-A-B system. You want to create something that forces the players to think ahead, because no one knows what anyone else is doing, until they've done it, because all of you do it at the same time.

So, for example...

Skyler

roughly that sounds about right

Ben

3 players. All players decide what they want to do, and perhaps tell the GM, to lock their answers in.

That way no one can "react"

Skyler

Yea, though I kind of just want to test this for duels for the time being

BESW

So, check out En Garde!

Skyler

00:51

server not found =(

BESW

New link, try again.

Ben

So, player 1 decides to attack, Player 2 wants to flank

Player 1 rolls a 15, player 2 rolls a 12, say.

The GM would then have to figure out what happens in that situation.

Skyler

yea

in the case im testing it its PC rolls 15 and NPC rolls 12 but yea

Ben

The problem is, using that situation, because the characters are doing two different things, there's no way to really contest those rolls. Both (depending on AC) would succeed.

There's also reaction abilities, etc., to account for, which in my mind just adds up to a lot of work.

nitsua60

@Skyler have you tried speed-factor initiative? (DMG 270-271)

Ben

00:58

@nitsua60 Isn't that just a different way of doing the A-B-A-B order?

nitsua60

@Lord_Gareth I'm back for the foreseeable future. (Warning: nitsua's foresight is about 30 min, these days.)

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 speaking of that -- I've wondered what the design intent behind speed factor init is?

nitsua60

@Ben Except that your choice of action can speed you up or slow you down.

Lord_Gareth

@nitsua60 To the NAB!

Ben

@nitsua60 Ah...

nitsua60

00:59

In @Skyler's example of a two-person fight, I'd be tempted to roll 3d6 for initiative, every turn, run SFI, and have simultaneous reveals of declared action. But that'd need playtesting.

I think not hard for a table that already uses SFI, but those're rare.

@Lord_Gareth I'm there.

NautArch

@nitsua60 simultaneously revealed actions. That's brilliant.

BESW

Again, En Garde! is overcomplicated for your needs but based on exactly these principles.

Simultaneously revealed actions which modify one's turn order depending on your choices, and which change effectiveness and outcome depending on the choices of others for the same span of time and their relative position in the initiative.

Since in that sense this is already a solved problem, I strongly suggest looking at the (free!) existing game based on your principles and seeing what parts of its wheel you don't have to re-invent for your context.

nitsua60

@BESW Solved problems are my favorite kind! (Hence asking if they'd considered SFI, but En Garde is much more tailored to these specifics.)

Ben

In which case I might suggest that this could be asked on the main site?

It's an interesting concept, and it's always exciting when unique encounters are dealt with uniquely

nitsua60

What would the question be?

"How do I run exciting 1-on-1 encounters in 5e?" Strikes me as the sort that could get lots of good answers, or could get closed fast. Depends on who sees it first =\

Ben

01:12

"How can I create a 'simultaneous' Init Order for encounters?"

nitsua60

Yeah, keeping it at initiative might work. Only one way to find out =)

BESW

@nitsua60 Yeah, I'd VTC broad in a heartbeat until it defined "exciting."

Ben

If @Skyler feels like doing the honors, since it was his question :)

doppelgreener

01:27

@BESW fyi I couldn't find a place on that site to get it free, only buy it

BESW

Reeeally? Hrm.

doppelgreener

@nitsua60 I once asked someone involved in Warhammer why the models had such a high price tag. Surely Games Workshop could just sell them at a quarter of the price, and they'd have at least four times the player base. The response was Games Workshop would prefer selling it at 4x that price for ¼ of the audience — it seems their business model deliberately skews toward hardcore fans

nitsua60

@doppelgreener did you mean to drop this in the NAB?

Ben

@doppelgreener Not only this, but they have also increased the points system to require more units, and there fore require more miniatures

doppelgreener

@nitsua60 nope, didn't want to interrupt and derail the storytelling and invite further wargaming talk

But it amuses me I'm using RPG General as an overflow for NAB

Just the once

nitsua60

01:35

@doppelgreener lolfigsl

Ben

@doppelgreener So not only do you have to pay more, you also have to buy more

doppelgreener

@Ben dang D':

Shalvenay

@Lord_Gareth -- speaking of overflow -- can you give me a very brief summary of Arneson's setting?

Lord_Gareth

@Shalvenay Blackmoor? I honestly can't. The brief summary would sorta be the whole thing in terms of the public record; not a lot of it is out there any more

But the adventure Temple of the Frog was set there if that helps

Shalvenay

@Lord_Gareth that helps at least

Ben

01:41

Who wants to do a quick mini-dungeon with me? I need (at least) 1 volunteer

That is willing to spend ~30 minutes of their time

Shalvenay

@Ben I can juggle that in I think -- whaddayagot?

(granted, I'm DMing as well right now xD)

Ben

@Shalvenay My Gray-Elf themed shrine

I can wait, lol

Shalvenay

@Ben ah. is there anything you want/need from my char, and what system?

Ben

5e Gray elf. Nothing else really. Level is irrelevant

If you want one, say level 5

doppelgreener

"'I'm a magician, not a wizard!' shouted Fed the Fantastic as he was shoved into the invading Orcs. 'Pick a card!' he screamed as he died."

Tweeted by AwfulFantasy on November 16, 2015 at 6:34 PM

@Magician ↑

Shalvenay

01:49

@Ben ah. don't have any elves handy in 5e so I'd have to roll something up

Ben

@doppelgreener Dammit Jim!

Shalvenay

...am I missing a subrace here? or will any ol' elf do?

nitsua60

@Ryan btw, Garl Glittergold can be found on SCAG p.115.

Ben

@Shalvenay Gray elf is a subrace, yes

It's a Shrine based on the Moon Goddess

Selune

Shalvenay

@Ben ah. I don't have that subrace in my books -- will any ol' elf do?

Ben

01:58

From memory, Gray elfs are no different from a High elf

other than skin tone

Shalvenay

gotcha

btw -- is there a resource you recommend for 5e charsheets online? MythWeavers is a tad bit on the clunky side for me

Ben

@Shalvenay You can often find the char sheet (form fillable) pdfs online

Adeptus

@Lord_Gareth @Shalvenay There's some info on it at blackmoor.mystara.net - Looks like Zeitgeist Games did an update of it a few years ago

Ben

but for generators, not really

Shalvenay

@Ben yeah, the fillable PDFs aren't really ideal either

Lord_Gareth

02:02

@Adeptus I love you

Ben

That escalated

nitsua60

May 1 at 15:20, by nitsua60

@Yuuki Please allow me to plug my favorite electronic character sheet, which does track encumbrance: http://www.dmsguild.com/product/186823/Character-Sheet--MPMBs-fullyautomated-Prin‌ter-Friendly-character-generator

Shalvenay

would a summary in chat suffice @Ben btw? or did you have somewhere else you wished to play besides TBR?

@nitsua60 part of the problem with PDF forms is that Evince isn't the happiest camper with them over here haha

Ben

@Shalvenay Nah, that'd be fine. I think the only real things you need are your skill stats

Shalvenay

@Ben that should be ez enough

Shalvenay

02:21

alroighty, got someone

Jau'viir -- Drow Rogue (Assassin) 6 -- 10/16/12/13/8/16

skills are Deception +9, Stealth +9, Perception +2, Sleight of Hand +9, Investigation +4, Intimidation +6 (also, expertise with thieves' tools)

got it @Ben?

Ben

@Shalvenay What's your prof bonus?

Shalvenay

@Ben +3 -- the +9s are the skills he has expertise in

Ben

Ok. Can you give me the whole list then? lol

Shalvenay

I listed all the skills he is proficient with

Ben

I spose it doesn't really matter, you can roll them when they apply. What I was looking for was religion specifically, cos that's applicable in this dungeon (doesn't matter if you're proficient or not)

Shalvenay

02:34

ah

religion is a +2 (int, no prof)

Ben

OK. So, which room we doing this in?

TBR?

Shalvenay

sure

Shalvenay

02:51

(btw @Ben -- thank gosh you can safely assume there's only one moon -- imagine trying to run such an adventure on Ardishapur Prime IX :P)

Ben

Lol

Lord_Gareth

@BESW - As a Michigander this happens to me several times a month: i.imgur.com/hGbcg7E.png

Shalvenay

hey there @PhiNotPi

PhiNotPi

hi

Shalvenay

how're things going?

hey as well @JuneShores

JuneShores

03:05

Hey.

PhiNotPi

Okay I guess. The D&D oneshot that I was planning to happen this past weekend didn't end up happening.

Shalvenay

@PhiNotPi drat, oh well :)

scheduling's a challenge on the best of days

PhiNotPi

Had time to help flesh out my sister's first character, though. Half-elf monk.

Shalvenay

@PhiNotPi ah :)

Magician

03:46

@doppelgreener I regularly get stage magician bots following me on twitter. Is odd.

Skyler

04:07

@Ben Sorry, lost power folks, rereading stuff

Ben

Ah, no worries. I ended up posting that question for you.

Skyler

ah great

@Ben link?

Lord_Gareth

3

Ben

0

Q: How can I create a 'simultaneous' Init Order for encounters?

In encounters, there is always an Initiative Order, that allows players to choose their actions one after the other. This is fine, but the only problem is that it doesn't really simulate the actual combat. Ideally, everyone should be acting simultaneously. So, to elaborate a little, the current ...

dnd-5e initiative

Ben

06:05

in The Back Room: Live Tabletop Games, May 5 at 15:40, by Dr R Dizzle

Brain attacks, somehow.

There would have to be a way to take control of body parts to achieve this... force the brain to some how spasm and cause itself to have an aneurysm

Or use mind control to raise the adrenaline and force a heart attack

BESW

07:46

...I'm going to use Escape from Two Orcs as my official default Great Ork Gods campaign map from now on.

BESW

08:44

@Szega [wave]

Szega

@BESW [wave bk] sup

I read it as a sort of aside on a wiki, so I'm not sure: is Ioun a dragon?

BESW

Probably, yes. What setting?

Szega

There are different versions of her in different settings?

BESW

Assuming you're talking about D&D, yes. There are lots of different settings, with minor or major variations depending on edition as well.

But you may be thinking of Io, also.

Szega

Yeah I know that. But I thought pantheons and gods were not tweaked, and were mostly part of the setting

it was a wiki, someone could've confused things

BESW

08:53

Nah, there's a lot of borrowing. A lot of the Forgotten Realms gods, for example, have equivalents in the default Greyhawkish setting of 3.5.

And D&D 4e's Points of Light has its own take on the multiverse and pantheons which borrows and throws out as it likes.

Szega

Well, I'm going to a oneshot this saturday, but it is in a homebrew/general/unspecified setting

BESW

So if you're reading a wiki that doesn't specify its setting or edition... [expansive shrug] I wouldn't take that wiki very seriously.

Szega

so it is up to me then, probably

BESW

And of course, your group is always free to modify the setting to your own needs.

Szega

it was here: dnd4.wikia.com/wiki/Ioun

its not terribly important, I was just curious :)

BESW

08:56

Okay, that Ioun is not a dragon. She is popularly worshipped by dragons.

(Worth noting, in 4e the dead god Io was a dragon. No relation to Ioun.)

Szega

thanks for the clarification

Erik

Whatever you choose, make sure to explain it your players :) Especially in a one-shot it's easy for people to get confused because they make the wrong assumption about what something's like in your game.

Szega

I'm a player there, cleric of Ioun. Thought I should know stuff like this :)
other thing: were there spells or ways to heal undead in earlier dnd editions? saw a question on 5e, saying there are not many

im gonna homebrew a way anyway, but I would like to base it on something if I can

prob will just handwave "necromantic energies"

Magician

In 3x, negative energy healed undead. Stuff like Cause Minor Wounds.

In 4e, as far as I remember, there was no way to heal undead because it wasn't something PCs were going to do, even if PCs were sort-of undead. How NPC necromancers maintained their creations was outside the scope of the system.

Which is to say, yes, necromantic energies does sound fitting.

Szega

will make a custom spell then. was thinking of adding this effect to Animate Dead

Erik

09:05

Did 4e even block casting healing spells on Undead? From what I can see they just say "spend a healing surge, regain HP"

BESW

Yeah, 4e handles healing very differently.

Magician

Sounds about right. Notably, monsters have 1 healing surge (per tier?).

Erik

Also, Animate Dead is quite high level for a healing spell, I think. Although that might be intentional.

Szega

Most of the PCs were turned into undead. I want them to decay (max HP drop), but also have a way to reverse it

thus the 3rd level

Erik

You want Animate to restore the drop in max HP? That sounds more like an equivalent to Restoration, which is also higher level, so makes sense.

Szega

09:13

Lesser Restoration is 2nd level, but is a cleric spell, I dont want that to work on reanimated

maybe it is even written there that it does not?

eimyr

hi

@Szega love your avatar.

Erik

I don't know if it works, I meant more that magic that restores max-hp decay is usually higher level than magic that just restores your normal hp.

Szega

@eimyr thanks :)

Erik

But they also represent very different things, of course

Szega

i just checked and only greater restore can give back max hp

lesser not

still, making it 5th level would be too steep for my now 3rd level vict.. PCs

Erik

09:16

How did your PCs end up as Undead by the way?

(And what type are they now?)

Szega

near-TPK in the forgotten lab of a necromancer

socerer found a magic writing on the wall

he tried casting it

BESW

[takes notes for Morts campaign]

Szega

@Erik special type, as they retain their personality (so that they are playable)

but not vamps or such, as that would be OP for 3rd lvl PCs

BESW

In 3.5, I'd use the Necropolitan template.

Szega

its 5e, but will check that out

Erik

09:19

Sounds like a sort of generic "like a normal person, but infused with undead energy" deal. Then I think indeed using spells and magic for healing makes sense, especially stuff linked to negative energy (like animate dead)

If they were something more specific, you could have some fun with using (only) the appropriately nasty methods of healing. Like if they got turned into Ghouls, they'd need to eat humanoid flesh to heal, or as vampires they'd need to drain blood.

That'll make them really bummed out about being undead beings :)

BESW

Yeah, as always it's important to start by defining the change in the game experience you want the mechanics to encourage/support.

Szega

the desired change was the lack of a ragequit

but I plan to make it fun

they will still depend on a wizard for the spell as none of them can cast it. I dont think they will like that

Erik

"fun" is such a nice, broad term :P

Szega

well, it is a nice plot point. I was running out anyway

Erik

It's definitely a nice plot, but I think BESW makes a good point that you should think about the game experience when building the mechanics :) They'll be very different if you want the players to come out thinking "oh man, poor undead, they have it so bad" vs "oh man, I'm totally going to become a Lich later because that would rock" for example

Szega

09:26

hmm... they expressed a desire to change back first, but they might change their minds later

will have to plan for it

especially for the warlock of the GOO..

eimyr

10:03

Quick! I need a fantasy character archetype known for its ease of making friends!

Anaphory

Actual friends? Or, like, the conman/face thingie in a Heist movie?

eimyr

well, could be

you know, folks who would specialise in Rapport, if we picked the Fate skill lsit

Anaphory

In terms of High School drama, also the prom queen. Victoriana has a variety of noble socialites.

eimyr

@Anaphory "fantasy character archetype"

Anaphory

Oh. Thus the difficulty. Ehm.

Szega

10:07

bards?

eimyr

@Szega Good one, validates a thing on my list. I need more.

Anaphory

The destined kid protagonist can be that one.

Szega

certain types of rogues could also qualify, lots of connections in the underground

eimyr

It's more of the "if you are a bard then it's a given you specialise in Rapport"

so I'm not looking for archetypes that could be that, but ones that must be that

So far I've got a Bard, a Folk Hero, and a Halfling. Need a couple more

(it was infinitely easier with most other ones)

Anaphory

I think there's two flavours of the Kid Protagonist, and one of them is the one that makes friends with the monsters.

BESW

10:13

Kender, for no discernable reason except author fiat.

eimyr

what on earth is a Kender?

BESW

A horrifying thing.

Or Kender: profanity warning edition.

eimyr

me reading: "The diminutive Kender have short attent..." OK I'm bored

BESW

More seriously, adorable waifs are always making friends.

trogdor

@eimyr they suck

so I find no reason for you not to be bored

BESW

10:18

Nymphs and dryads are notorious for scads of unwanted "friends."

eimyr

ew

BESW

Jesters usually have "makes people friendly" on their resume.

eimyr

I looked at the Kender with some attention and the profanity version is the one I'd agree with

@BESW I'd say Jester is close enough to a Bard. Other entertainers, like bartenders etc. would do, but they wouldn't be good protagonists

BESW

Kindly but overworked kitchen staff tend to be friends with literally every living thing except the designated villains.

trogdor

@eimyr I have read some Dragonlance, and even in that series where they are attempted to be depicted as the good guys,...... they suck so hard

BESW

10:22

Orphans raised to manhood by wild animals are surprisingly good friend material.

(Ranger?)

trogdor

they steal everything, they lie about it, and then they repeatedly almost get their "best freinds" killed

and the rest of their traits are mary sue bullhocky that is intended to make up for all the bad stuff they do

XD

BESW

Gruff introspective mercenaries who only want to stare at the fire broodily or get drunk and pick bar fights, often get smothered with un-asked-for friendships.

2

eimyr

@BESW I think I'm looking for much, much broader archetypes than the ones you're thinking about. More like character classes than character ideas

BESW

That's a round-peg-square-hole kind of problem, then.

eimyr

Also, the idea being that these people are good for settling differences using a sympathetic approach and friendliness, not that they are showered in marysued unintended companions

Anaphory

10:30

If the fantasy in question has priests doing actual soul-shepherding and not just the D&D cleric variant, they tend to be of that type.

BESW

I guess if I wanted to look for D&D classes that'd be good at treating Friendship as their primary hammer, I'd look at the class skill lists and write down whoever's got proficiency/bonus/whatever (depending on the edition) with the friendship skills, and use that as a baseline.

eimyr

So I have a few approaches to solving problems in a game idea - which are quite broad - and I'm trying to fashion a number of example character archetypes that are supposed to be best for a particular approach

say, in the form of "everyone knows Soldiers, Outlaws and Bounty Hunters are good at solving problems with Violence"

so I want to compose a sentence to the likeness of "Everyone knows Bards, Folk Heroes, Halflings....(couple more?)... are good at solcing problems using Rapport)

BESW

Umm. A certain subset of witches can use Rapport instead of Provoke to create advantages and make social attacks (think Aes Sedai).

Tricksters and Loveable Rogues.

eimyr

I think I need to read the Wheel of Time eventually

BESW

Eeeeh. I wouldn't recommend reading past the third unless you're riveted by the worldbuilding rather than the plot.

eimyr

10:45

and yet people reference it all the time

BESW

It's a soothing balm to people who like reading the Lord of the Rings appendices?

eimyr

"Lord of the Rings appendices" - that sounds like Silmarillion

BESW

I think of it as what would happen if Isaac Asimov novelised his LotR/Dune mashup RPG campaign.

eimyr

GM: "And finally your realise... THE BBEG IS A ROBOT!" PCs: "So?" GM: "A man-like machine! Isn't it amazing?" PCs: "Um... yeah, if you say so..."

BESW

A sweeping epic tale stretched over too many chapters of plot-light worldbuilding and thinly fictionalised exotic cultures with lovingly explained pop philosophies, featuring an untrackably huge cast of characters with personalities like butter over too much bread.

Also there are glossaries for the made-up languages.

If you like super-complicated worldbuilding it's definitely worth a read. There are interesting ideas and setpieces, I just felt the story and characters fell slowly apart as the novels progressed until I lost patience with entire novels of indistinguishable characters whining about what they'd be forced to do in the next novel.

eimyr

10:56

...oh

BESW

Hrm. The Gambler is another archetype who uses social skills to solve problems.

In D&D class terms he'd probably be a rogue or a bard depending on his style.

eimyr

I love it.

BESW

(Wheel of Time has a Gambler character who slowly devolves into a Two-Face-like obsession with tests of chance.)

...Hrm. What would be the D&D equivalent of Gurgi?

eimyr

I'm also thinking of a tourist

like a pilgrim of some sort, on a formative journey

BESW

Those can be fun!

eimyr

11:06

I'm not sure thought whether they would indeed be masters of Rapport from all the approaches (Violence, Deception, Judgment, Resources, Rapport)

BESW

I think the vast majority of people in a given world will, of those approaches, be stacking Rapport--with Deception and Judgement close behind. They might want Resources, but it's not available to most.

So your average pilgrim is probably gonna be rocking Rapport, with a slight uptick in the frequency of Resource-stacking pilgrims just because pilgrimages are hard to do if you can't afford to hire someone to milk the cow while you're gone.

eimyr

I would imagine so. But the protagonists are exceptional people, therefore they might be nobles or merchants with access to resources (manpower and money) or clerics and scholars who have good Judgment (Judgment here is more of a pursuit of an objective, intellectual stance)

Joel Harmon

11:23

@eimyr The wise old grandmother that everyone ends up effectively saying "yes, mom" to?

but that's not much of a player class

I'd say Clerics, depending on the god, tend to be social

NautArch

12:37

is dndbeyond missing a bunch of spells?

diego

@NautArch Right now it only has things that are in the SRD or the Basic Rules. Anything outside of that you have to wait until they have the paid version

Also note that several spells have their names changed to remove proper name for the SRD so Leomund's Tiny Hut is just Tiny Hut in the SRD

NautArch

@diego oh weird. okay. must be why they're cracking down on some of the other sites now.

Ryan

13:25

so last night at D&D I played the new Warlock/Cleric. Everything was going well until it wasn't. I used Charm Person and succeeded on a boss fight. Then as a Bonus Action the DM said I could make him do stuff but would have to roll with advantage whatever I want him to do. I rolled a double critical failure. Snake Eyes on 20 sided die >.<

the boss broke the charm and knocked me unconscious in the first round of combat.

NautArch

That's not really how charm works...

but very nice of the DM. Welcome to the critical failure, club, though! It's an interesting club.

Ryan

yeah I think I should've used Command instead of Charm Person. Actually I wanted to use Fey Presence before we even started combat when I was the only character up front talking to the bosses

Adam

You should go buy a lottery ticket. You got a result that only had a 1 in 400 chance of occuring

Ryan

they were trying to convince me to submit to some vampiric tree. I tried to persuade him to tell the truth and rolled a 20; the DM also rolled a 20. Then I wanted to cast Fey Presence but the DM said "If you won't submit its time to die" and everyone rolled for initiative and my area of effect options got messed up by placement of friendlies and smaller guys

so I did Charm Person because was too far to Fey Presence and had a tiny on me that would've gotten a reaction otherwise and likely killed me (I was already pretty low on health)

@Adam but a bad result!

PhiNotPi

@Adam If I recall correctly, in one campaign I'm in, my character got one-shotted three times in a row (different battles) because the enemy rolled critical hits.

Dr R Dizzle

13:35

@PhiNotPi Isn't that exactly the kind of situation where your DM should be pulling punches and nerfing rolls? That doesn't sound fun.

diego

@Adam That's nothing, in our last session my warlock cast EB with 2 beams while blessed. Both d20s crit and both d4s were the same, then to confirm the crit (since my table does that for possible extra effects) the d20s were again the same number

Adam

@PhiNotPi One of my friends was playing a halfing thief, and in one session managed to roll 5 consecutive natural 1's. As in, rolled a 1, rerolled a 1 for halfling luck, rolled a 1 on the next check, rolled a 1 for halfling luck again, and then rolled a 1 on the next check after that before finally getting, like, a 6 for halfling luck.

Ryan

@DrRDizzle if my DM altered rolls I would be upset. I'd rather struggle and potentially die. But I like challenging games. Its often way too easy so far

Dr R Dizzle

@Ryan But you didn't struggle. You got one-shotted three times in a row, you had no say in the outcome of the encounter because you may as well not been present for it.

Like, a struggle is being presented with a challenge that can only be overcome with quick thinking and smart choices. You just got instantly KO'd.

Adam

@DrRDizzle @PhiNotPi got one shotted 3 times

Ryan

13:40

@DrRDizzle I disagree. If a PC can get a lucky roll and one shot an enemy than the DM should be able to do the same to us

Dr R Dizzle

@Ryan But the DM shouldn't be trying to "win" the encounter, whereas the PC's should.

The DM's job is to craft a compelling and engaging story, no?

Adam

@DrRDizzle Some players like a more realistic setting. And in such a setting, monsters may not realize that they are monsters. Your enemies dont want to lose

NautArch

@DrRDizzle AND challenging. But it depends on your table. Mine is very combat focused. When I DM, I only pull punches if it seems I stacked the deck too hard. Otherwise, I don't.

I'm not trying to kill my PCs, but I'm trying to make it very ahrd and make sure the risk of death is real.

Dr R Dizzle

@NautArch But in the situation mentioned above, one player just wasn't playing the game for 3 encounters in a row through no fault of his own. Imagine if you were playing a videogame that instantly killed you the second the cutscene ended.

NautArch

@Ryan But that's a very liberal interpretion of Charm Person. Just be careful if that's the table rule - it can be used on you that way, too.

@DrRDizzle Bad juju happens. @Ryan were you healed and back up each time or was it the end of the encounters for you

Yuuki

13:44

@Adam At the same time, enemies aren't particularly fond of suicide. Every monster fighting to the death because they don't want to lose is unrealistic in its own way.

But that's a bit of a tangent.

NautArch

@Yuuki that's our table, too :) Monsters don't run.

Ryan

@NautArch healed back up each time? what do you mean? I was knocked unconcious. I wasn't the one that got one shotted with Eldritch Blast

NautArch

@Ryan Right, but did anyone heal you to bring you back into the fight? Do you mean uncoscious as 0 HP, or unconscious as in a condition that we given to you?

Ryan

@NautArch oh 0 hp. I'm the only Healer so I was left unconcious through the fight and ended up with one Failure roll

4 new players at the table slowing us down and not one with a heal >.<

Adam

@Yuuki True. But you have to draw a line somewhere. Some people draw it at "Monsters shouldn't win...ever" Some people draw it at "Monsters will try to win all the time, even if it's plainly obvious they can't" and some people draw it at "Monsters try to act as much like real creatures, while still being as fun as I can make them" None of them are wrong per se, it just depends on the kind of game you like

NautArch

13:48

@Ryan oh man. that's rough. but it does happen - especially at low levels.

Dr R Dizzle

I suppose it depends on why the encouter is happening. If the monsters are raiding a village, they'll probably back off before being killed. If the PC's are raiding the monsters' home, then they might choose death over surrender.

Adam

Often times, fighting to the end is just easier. If you allow your monsters to retreat, you have to plan for what that means for the world. How will they react as a result of being forced back? It's just easier and less time consuming to have them all die so you don't even need to worry about such a thing. The problem being that you are trading verisimilitude for convenience

Ryan

@NautArch seems to be a regular thing in Adventurer's League. First three weeks were the same 4 people. Then suddenly one of them dropped but 4 new came bringing us to 8. Then the week after that none of those new people showed up and one more of the original left bringing us to 3. Then this week suddenly we were at 8 again.

PhiNotPi

As for my DM, he's said that he likes to go "by the dice" as in he's not gonna intentionally try to kill people/knock them unconscious, but if that's what the roll ends up being, then that's what happens.

Adam

@PhiNotPi I try to follow this rule. The only time I pull punches is, like @NautArch said, when it becomes clear that the encounter was way more difficult than I had planned it for, and the fault is purely mine.

NautArch

13:51

@Ryan Wut? This is AL? But there are critical fumble/hit tables and charm person that lets you control them?!

Ryan

@NautArch Im pretty sure its not really AL lol the DM even said we're only kinda playing AL and have mostly ventured far far off of it

but as far as joining the table goes people think its AL so show up

Adam

For example, I once Nerfed a Chasme at the last second because I had never used one before and it ended up being more powerful than what I had intended it to be used for

NautArch

@Ryan that's...weird. Although I've never played AL so dunno.

@Adam Chasme are awesome

Adam

@NautArch They are, but I used it on a party that just wasn't ready for it, and so I had to tone it down a little bit. Otherwise, it would have been a slaughter

PhiNotPi

AL seems like a pretty neat concept, but I've never played it.

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