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ShadowKras
ShadowKras
3:05 PM
But the book says the GM can change anything in the rules!
 
NautArch
NautArch
@ShadowKras oh, you!
 
diego
diego
@nitsua60 I found a way, but since it uses rand() it re-sorts every time a cell is updated. Is that a problem?
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@BESW Hrm. I suppose what I'm thinking of in general is some advice given way back in the 2e setting guide to Ravenloft, which had shockingly good advice on running horror in an RPG considering its day and age. It talked about how horror - which trades on this kind of trope quite often - often relies on having protagonists which are denied agency because they lack power, grit, training, etc
But adventurers, like Fate protagonists, have these things
So rather than removing their ability to act, you remove the usual context and expectations in which the actions take place. You don't tie the fighter up, you curse his sword; you don't remove the wizard's chill touch, you infuse it with the Power of Evil and let him decide if it's worth the price
Etc so forth
And while my question is not about horror it does concern that same sort of situation where I'm looking to reduce or re-frame the power of dynamic protagonists in order to create a feeling in the encounter
 
Dr R Dizzle
Dr R Dizzle
The problem with that kind of horror in TTRPG's is that a feeling of powerlessness can be frustrating, rather than scary.
 
ShadowKras
ShadowKras
@DrRDizzle that depends completely on what everyone is expecting from the game.
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
3:19 PM
@DrRDizzle Certainly. This is the chief issue at the heart of aforementioned book's advice.
I tend to refer to the result as 'heroic horror' and games like Hunter: the Vigil also fall into it
 
Dr R Dizzle
Dr R Dizzle
@ShadowKras True, but there isn't all that much difference between making a PC powerless and removing a players agency. At a certain point, you're just narrating pre-determined failure, which is basically (in my eyes) the worst kind of railroading.
 
Adam
Adam
@DrRDizzle It's very difficult to be scared when it's all in your imagination.
 
Dr R Dizzle
Dr R Dizzle
@Adam Tell that to any 5 year old :P
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
Do I sense the opportunity for a Q&A
I bet I do.
 
Adam
Adam
@DrRDizzle That's different. A 5 year old believes that it's not in their head. They believe it's real.
 
Dr R Dizzle
Dr R Dizzle
3:22 PM
@Adam I watched a bunch of horror movies around a buddies house at night a few years ago, and we were just talking about how horrible it would be if horror stuff could actually happen in real life, and we managed to freak ourselves out with minimal alcohol having been consumed. It's not impossible.
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
@Christopher A shorter read is the Basic Rules for Players and for DM at the Wizards of the coast web site. Game engine is chapters 7-10
 
Dr R Dizzle
Dr R Dizzle
But I imagine it would be really, really hard to deliberately invoke the same feelings in players in a TTRPG.
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@Adam A good horror campaign requires buy-in from the players. They need to want the experience and work with you on it. All RPG campaigns have this to an extent but in this metaphor a normal RPG campaign is a consensual intimate relationship and a horror game is more like consensual BDSM if that makes any kinda immediate sense.
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
My friend's decided on playing a Druid. And he did so by linking a picture of the Lorax saying, "I am the Lorax, I speak for the trees. And the trees say 'shut the <redacted> up'."
 
Adam
Adam
@Lord_Gareth This idea is ultimately what I'm trying to get across. You have to want to go along with it. If you even have the slightest iota of "I don't really care about this working out" It's going to fall flat. Which means that it's hard to scare yourself when you know it isn't real
 
Dr R Dizzle
Dr R Dizzle
3:24 PM
Rather than inspiring genuine fear, you have to work towards making them feel dread, which is all about anticipating what might be coming rather than dealing with that which has actually appeared. I have no idea how you might do that without being quite literally the world's best, most descriptive and atmospheric DM.
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@DrRDizzle I wouldn't describe myself as that DM but I've pulled it off both in person and online.
It's difficult but not as much as you might think.
A lot of people fall into common traps in "horror" campaigns that look appealing but are...let's be charitable and say 'misguided'
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
@Yuuki I like your Druid friend already. Will he play a Circle of the Moon and spend a lot of time like the bear, "going" in the woods? And marking trees as a wolf?
 
Dr R Dizzle
Dr R Dizzle
Seems to me that your players would have to have genuine attachment to their characters and investment in the world, which itself is difficult to create unless they really want it.
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
@KorvinStarmast It seems like he wants to double down on the trees and he's going Land Druid.
 
Erik
Erik
I've run one-shot sessions with horror scenarios, which can still work fine
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
3:27 PM
(Hell the guy I would describe as that GM spends his time running Dwarf Fortress campaigns as post-apocalyptic adventures in the wasteland created by the Dwarves and their dreaded weapons of mass destruction)
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
Moon Druid feels more like the animal side of druid custodianship.
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
Screw it, I'ma do this Q&A once I finish refining my Fate question
Maybe I can attract someone to offer advice on writing a halfway-decent "evil" campaign since it seems that every time someone goes to write an official, published one they don't do the idea justice.
Even Black Crusade dropped the ball on that one and it's an entire system about being evil
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
@yuuki They are both good choices, depending upon what you want to do.
 
NautArch
NautArch
just found out we've got a tempest cleric and wild magic sorcerer joining our party. Should be interesting.
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
Horror campaigns are about establishing something that taps into key fears. The unknown.
You take a creature like Giger's Alien. It wouldn't say it's inherently evil. It's part of an ant-colony type structure. And you, fleshy human, are a resource. It doesn't know nor care about your moral and ethic systems. You are meat and a gestation pod, nothing more.
 
Dr R Dizzle
Dr R Dizzle
3:36 PM
@Lord_Gareth With the game I plan on playing with my PCs soon, I'm defining "good" as selfless and "evil" as selfish. So a character who is only out for himself is "evil", regardless of how many orphans he kills.
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@DrRDizzle The issues with published evil adventures doesn't tend to be how they define evil. It tends to fall into one of two problems
Either the writers assume you're an idiot, that evil is made of idiots, and that somehow it continues to succeed and perpetuate despite only possessing participants with the reasoning ability of drunken snails in a centrifuge
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
@NautArch I really enjoyed my Tempest Cleric. Sadly, that campaign is in a stasis.
 
SevenSidedDie
SevenSidedDie
@Lord_Gareth Again, be nice.
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
Or they assume that since you're playing an evil game you're on board for the Suffering Train and they arbitrarily take away everything you earn over the course of the adventure, often while encouraging the GM to break the social contract inherent in the game.
 
Dr R Dizzle
Dr R Dizzle
@Lord_Gareth Evil for the sake of evil is not and never will be a compelling character trait. It's dull.
 
Adam
Adam
3:38 PM
@MadMAxJr totally unrelated, I really want to see the new Alien movie. But I'm nervous because the reviews I've heard are split down the middle of "It's boring and not very good" and "It's worth the watch at least"
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@SevenSidedDie What exactly was the problem there?
 
SevenSidedDie
SevenSidedDie
Editing out the not-nice is a start, but the “you've been gone for a while and get some adjustment time” credit is going to expire soon and not-nice is going to start resulting in chat suspensions.
@Lord_Gareth Don't slag people.
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@DrRDizzle Aye. You can see then why it's a perpetual issue when it becomes an assumption in the writing.
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
@Lord_Gareth I suspect that D&D AL bans certain evil alignment choices with the points you are making in mind, and Dr R's. Evil isn't heroic.
 
SevenSidedDie
SevenSidedDie
(See the edited version of that message for where the issue was. Calling designers incompetent cartoons, or thereabouts, is Not Nice.)
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
3:40 PM
One of the few characters I've read who was both interesting and Evil was Elric of Melnibone (Moorcock). I think he's a template for Warlock / pact in some ways, but tended to come off as a fighter-magic user.
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@SevenSidedDie Are ya not familiar with the idea of metaphor to communicate? The phrasing was chosen for a reason, quite specifically to call back to the often terrible and terribly-written villains of shovelware cartoons
But hey, arbitrarily decide that I'm being mean to a generalized group
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
What's shovelware?
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@KorvinStarmast Design term originating in programming; 'shovelware' is (usually small), cheap products "shoveled out" in bulk to make a profit
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
I am not familiar with that slang/jargon ... Ah, I see .. got it
 
NautArch
NautArch
@KorvinStarmast it looks like a very cool class. Excited to see it in play.
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
3:43 PM
As you go up in levels, the charop assertions that "Tempest Cleric is a good tank" are unfounded. At best, an off tank. still a lot of fun.
 
NautArch
NautArch
was hoping for a bard, but I'll take the help. Hopefully they pick up Haste :)
starting at level 10
We've got a true tank in our Berserker, with my vengeance paladin being a pseudo-tank.
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
Veng Paladin with defensive fighting style does OK as a tank.
 
NautArch
NautArch
@KorvinStarmast GWM style.
My defense style is offense.
GM also allows 1/2 rerolls on all damage die (including smites)
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
We've got a paladin, barb, monk, EK, wizard. Low on spells, and I am worried that in a few levels magical damage will be hard to come by. GWF IMO is a mistake unless there is a primary healer. Our Paladin is our only healer, and we are away from a town. So, our paladin took GWF. (Hey, it's his char but I am pretty sure we are gonna wipe the next time our DM gets even mildly warm with the dice.
 
Adam
Adam
 
SevenSidedDie
SevenSidedDie
3:50 PM
@Lord_Gareth You're not being invited to a debate, you're being gently reminded that the rules here mean slagging off on people has consequences, and they involve 1) a chat moderator asking you to cut it out, or 2) a chat moderator not asking anymore and programmatically ensuring it's cut out. Finding the line between invoking that and not is on the chat user who is overstepping the chat privileges SE has granted them.
Most people do not get so gently reminded. You're getting credit for being away for a while and the chat culture shifting, which may take a bit of time to adjust to.
Well that was choosing (2).
 
GreySage
GreySage
Tangent: I am being asked to DM a 5e game. I don't think anyone in our group has played 5e before, and I have never DMed before (I've played 3.5 and pathfinder). I am thinking of running the Mines of ..whateveritwas. Any advice y'all can give me?
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
Lost Mines of Phandelver?
 
GreySage
GreySage
@KorvinStarmast That'd be the one
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
@KorvinStarmast I think it's a singular mine.
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
There are a bunch of questions on the site regarding that module, I'd suggest reviewing them, most of the answers IMO boil down to "read the PHB to get familiar with the rules." OK, a Mine.
Nitsua ran it, I recall, he may be on sooner. our group has never done it, we do home run campaigns mostly.
5e combat is simpler than 3.5e. Go over how combat works and action economy until you know how they work.
 
GreySage
GreySage
3:56 PM
My intention is to run my own campaign, but I thought I would start with something prebuilt.
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
Good plan, most people who have run it were pleased with it as an intro to 5e.
 
Adam
Adam
@GreySage I haven't run that adventure before, but I have played it. The early encounters are pretty much all combat, with a side order of rescue some dudes. It gets going really quickly so you wont have to do a lot of work forcing the characters to head in the direction of the adventure. The first encounter involves the rules for surprise encounters, so you might want to reference some questions on that mechanic on the main site
 
NautArch
NautArch
@KorvinStarmast we have a light cleric. He's light on healing :) But DM did give a rod of resurrection
 
Adam
Adam
Clerics are so much more than healers
 
NautArch
NautArch
I still use lay on hands pretty regularly, and sometimes cure wounds. But for the most part, that reroll 1s and 2s has come up HUGE. and it's fun.
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
3:59 PM
@Adam Indeed, who said otherwise? My first two chars were Life Cleric and Tempest Cleric.
 
Adam
Adam
Perhaps I misunderstood of the context around the "light on healing/rod of resurrection" comment
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
One of my coolest Life Cleric things was using my awesome first level spell to kill off an Ankheg with Inflict Wounds. Got a decent roll for damage and hit. SMoked him
 
Adam
Adam
I cant use inflict wounds or my DM will make me evil and my deity will abandon me
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
?? Huh, how about guiding bolt?
 
Adam
Adam
that's fine
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
4:02 PM
Both are the same spell, more or less, one ranged and one melee. Interesting ruling. Are you life domain?
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
Hi not space-ghost.
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
@MadMAxJr Hi Max, good to see you.
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
Well I meant @doppelgreener I keep associating him as a false space ghost.
 
doppelgreener
doppelgreener
Hello!
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
@MadMAxJr Heh, I just grokked the picture. Wow, takes me back some decades.
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
4:04 PM
Yes!
 
Adam
Adam
@KorvinStarmast Yup. Partly because I wanted to. Partly because every at the table couldn't get over the thought of not having a designated healer. It's a bit of a frustrating position to be in which is why I'm extra sensitive to "Clerics are healers" comments. The ruling is because guiding bolt is radiant, and inflict wounds is necrotic.
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
I read all his text as George Lowe and I love it.
Anyway.
 
doppelgreener
doppelgreener
Haha! Fantastic
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
My copy of Dark Souls tabletop arrives Wednesday
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
@Adam Makes sense, indeed, thematically. To me the key healing is "healing word" during combat when someone goes down so that they aren't out of the fight. Between times there is plenty of other ways to heal/recover
 
Adam
Adam
4:05 PM
My DM also wants alignment and spell choice to be a bigger deal than "I'll just choose whatever deals the most damage."
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
I can't wait to open the box and see 'You Died' inside.
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
@Adam I like your DM's style, in that regard. Makes thematic sense.
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
@Adam Does alignment factor into damage minmaxing?
I know it did for 3.5e/Pathfinder as far as "wield aligned weapon to deal bonus damage to enemies of a different alignemnt".
 
doppelgreener
doppelgreener
@MadMAxJr I'd love to get my hands on that one. And the Bloodborne card game.
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
The thing about alignment is that with a good DM who does not use it as a mechanic/step function, it can really add texture to a world and to characters. But when it isn't ... we all know the traps.
 
Adam
Adam
4:08 PM
@Yuuki No, not really. It's just a tie-in to thematics. Necrotic and poison spells are evil, or at least more evil than the other types of damage, thematically, so using them is evil too
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
@doppelgreener The Bloodborne Card game was $20 on Amazon a couple weeks ago. They had a gold-box deal on a ton of board games.
 
Adam
Adam
@Yuuki Mechanically, I think there are a few magic items that require a certain alignment to attune to and they give various bonuses, but there is almost always a version of them for every alignment. Being evil or good or neutral doesn't change your damage output to any significant degree. My DM just wants our choices to be tied to thematics and the world, not just to what has the biggest numbers
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
Also nabbed King of Toyko
 
Adam
Adam
He also likes to throw quandaries at us. For example, we got a boon from a being that we freed from an amber prison. We each got various magic items related to our desires. Turns out, the items were all taken from a very powerful cleric in a different town, who was slain and them items teleported to us. So now I have a belt of Giant Strength and am racked with guilt.
 
doppelgreener
doppelgreener
@MadMAxJr Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat. Amazing. I can't believe I missed that.
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
4:12 PM
@Adam Ah. I've told my players to not bother with listing a concrete alignment for my first campaign.
 
Adam
Adam
I'm considering giving the belt back to the church of the slain cleric, but I also really like having giant strength. Tough choices
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
I tend to do that in intro games. Don't administrate alignment, but offer commentary at the end of how their actions were perceived.
I don't allow blatant evil at my table, and usually stop them to explain why. Evil often isn't a good fit to progress my stories.
Veteran players have made compelling cases to me for interesting Lawful Evil characters, which I've allowed twice. Has to be handled carefully, and god help you if there's a paladin in the mix with someone who picks up on the EVIL DETECTOR.
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
Yeah, I'll caution them about evil actions (maybe have them roll a low DC Wisdom check to simulate a conscience or second thoughts).
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
@Adam you could offer that church a service, quest, or to do something "in the name of XXX" in order to balance the scales. Interesting choices make for interesting games.
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
The last lawful evil character I had was a soldier looking to basically gain power and status by 'playing the game' of politics and society. He found the party to be a means to that end. He doesn't value any particular one of them, but it is in his interest to keep them capable to aid him, at least for now.
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
4:16 PM
I'm with Max.
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
The paladin in the party was less than thrilled by his motives, but the paladin managed to find some peace and acceptance by knowing that as long as this evil person is in his presence, the paladin can scold and sometimes stop him. It's wrong to smite him for simply being evil without catching him in the act. It became a source of party banter for the soldier to figure out, "How do I do this without the paladin noticing?"
And for the paladin to sigh, "He's doing it again. What do I say to him to reform him without raising my sword?"
 
Adam
Adam
@KorvinStarmast Not a bad idea. For the moment though, my redemption has to wait. We're going through "The Temple of Elemental Evil" and we just popped into Nulb and have stop the great evil and all that jazz. Stopping Apocalyptic evil is more important than the belt, and I figure I can at least make good use of it while I have it.
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
In the end the paladin felt conflicted and morally grey at times. The soldier started to feel that it's simply less of a headache to comply with the flow of things most of the time, than pursue self advancement all of the time.
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
@Adam ToEE; Neat module. I am tempted to spring it on our group with a different name when I begin to run later this summer. Getting myself up to speed with Roll20 tools so that when it's my turn to DM we don't have technical hiccups
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
The rogue and the witch found this all highly entertaining.
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
4:21 PM
@doppelgreener Do I still have you on Google Hangouts from our kinda canceled attempt to do a Fate hack?
 
doppelgreener
doppelgreener
@Lord_Gareth I think so, yeah.
let me check
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
And now comes the sacred rite of Trying To Figure Out Which Name Is You
 
doppelgreener
doppelgreener
@Lord_Gareth I think I found you and sent you a message
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
Not readin' on this end. My username should appear as either 2012Knives or my real name (Jade Ripley; it's on the book so it's not like I've got much to hide at this point)
 
doppelgreener
doppelgreener
Yeah, it's the 2012Knives one
"2012Knives hasn't accepted your invitation."
Also, on that stuff SSD said earlier, I'm not clear on whether your original message was describing actual authors or actually just describing villains goofing off (without reference to the authors) -- lines might have been hazy in SSD's reading and they're hazy in mine. I'd just suggest as a rule of thumb not describing people in bad terms.
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
4:27 PM
Hmm... trying to figure out how a "living out in the wild" Druid would know a dwarven trader for the LMoP hook.
 
doppelgreener
doppelgreener
@Yuuki Do druids go into caves sometimes and do dwarves come out of them sometimes?
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
Hrm. I'm not reading an invitation on my end. Can you re-send it?
I'm like 80% sure this other guy here is Magician 'cause I remember being oddly pleased by the name just from a 'it's fun to say' standpoint
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
@Yuuki This is easy. Druids tend to be naturists. Sometimes they may need items or goods common in established society, that are not quite readily available in nature.
Salves, foodstuffs, and other items that may require a degree of processing or labor.
 
NautArch
NautArch
@Adam it's less about Clerics and more about this particular cleric. Party buffin/healing hasn't been his thing. The rod with Heal has changed that a bit, but still not a priority for the player.
 
Adam
Adam
@NautArch Yeah, I can see where that would be frustrating. My apologies for jumping the gun there, I haven't had my daily brains yet :p
 
NautArch
NautArch
4:30 PM
@adam why is necrotic "evil"?
Oh, we've gotten over it. It's his character and no one has died from lack of healing.
 
Adam
Adam
@NautArch Necrotic damage "withers matter and even the soul." Anything that withers the soul is at least a little evil
It's also the signature damage type for many undead creatures, and undead are all raised with evil magic in our world
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
@Adam Beat me to it. It's "necrotic damage is evil" as a theme.
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
Manipulation of a life force in a harmful way = evil.
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
And at this point, I back away having watched a large number of noisy discussions at GiTP regarding "necromancy is evil" - "no it's not" --
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
Be sure to make your clerics and paladins stress twitch by having a reformed vampire who has found renewable, non-harmful blood supplies and contributes to the local communities at night in exchange for fair payment and trade.
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
4:36 PM
@MadMAxJr Broseph a hatchet to the face manipulates life energy in a harmful way. Admittedly it starts as kinetic energy but then most forms of energy start as something else.
If lighting a guy on fire is somehow not evil I don't see much of an issue with inflict
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
Clearly we need to stick alignment tags on kinetic energy.
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
Reformed Vampire? Really? Makes no sense. Vampirism is, by default, inherently selfish. evil grin
Shatter is Lawful Mach energy, right?
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
Necromancy -> Necromancy -> Crom -> human sacrifice -> evil.
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
Hell if I know. D&d is obsessed with putting tags on things.
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
Necromancy -> Necromancy -> Crom -> Conan the Barbarian -> good.
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
4:38 PM
Blame Gygax, and pass the bat guano.
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
Alignment is an archaic gameplay concept. It can be used well and it can also make things confusing as all heck.
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
Conan is neutral, at best, alignment wise (particularly going back to law.neut.chaos modes. Max, I can't wait for Kuntz' book to come out.
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
Alignment is a good set of rails to help newer players, in my experience.
For veteran players it gets in the way.
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
(also damnit @MadMAxJr now I wanna get you to read my book >.>)
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
I got the teaser, which is a bit over priced for my money, but he's decided that "the Origins of D&D" history to date is unsat, and he intends to set the record straight.
Rob Kuntz.
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
4:39 PM
@Lord_Gareth You'll have to get in line behind The Expanse books 2-3, and about 6 The Laundry Files novels.
Though you do have your book on kindle, which is a plus in my book.
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
@MadMAxJr Or is it a plus in your Kindle?
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
@Lord_Gareth Is it published yet, or still pending?
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@MadMAxJr I feel you there. It's just I saw the paladin talk above and that's kinda, like...centrally involved
@KorvinStarmast Published on multiple vendors, though ATM I'd rip out my own kidney to get more Amazon reviews. Once a book hits 10+ there they start showing it more aggressively
(and who needs kidneys right?)
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
I hear you only need one ... is that true?
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
I've had players justify burning down a region of woodland, home to some fey creatures, because the approaching darkness would corrupt it and add the fey to their armies. Strategically burning it would hinder the darkness and cause casualties in the first waves. They would of course tell the Fey this is coming and make efforts for relocation and safe passage.
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
4:41 PM
Is that the general you as in "authors" or is that the specific you as in "I heard that you Gareth are only one review away"
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
I was referring to one kidney ...
 
NautArch
NautArch
@Adam @KorvinStarmast Ugh. Well, so they're limiting an entire spell class for a houserule. Do you get any boons to balance it?
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
Jade gable, eh?
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
I must live the rest of my life with this linguistic shame
(and yes you technically only need one but it's not a full redundancy. It's not not a redundancy but like)
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
easy to remember name. If Stephen King used a pen name, anyone can.
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
4:43 PM
(there are things you have to do when living your life with one kidney)
...Gable?
Broseph you lookin' at the wrong book if you're seein' a Gable
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
Sorry, Ripley. NVM, my brain is not on coffee right now ...
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
amazon.com/s/… <-This is me
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
@Lord_Gareth It's in the same monster category as the famed gazebo.
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@Yuuki My god. The Gazebo was dreadful enough
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
Thank you for not selling your kindle edition for the same price as print.
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
4:45 PM
What fresh horror is this
@MadMAxJr Thank the bossmen on that one. DSP figured that out pretty fast in RPG publishing
 
Adam
Adam
@NautArch It's not really limiting. None of us came up to char creation and said "I want to be a necromancer, control armies of the undead, bring crops to wither in my presence and spread pestilence to my foes!" It's basically just means that I have to pick a new god and, potentially, a new domain if I want to use those spells. We don't get bonuses for any other spells beyond what our classes give us. We don't need them
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
That's why I remember you... You're one of the Dreamscarred folks. Now it's coming back to me.
 
NautArch
NautArch
@Adam I guess that's true. I'm just generally annoyed when there is a ban hammer on something without a counterbalance.
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
You may also recall me from such films as the RAW Tag Issues and the Creation of The Not A Bar
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
And the call to arms for a mod purge. But that's not relevant right now.
What's your book in two sentences?
 
NautArch
NautArch
4:47 PM
@Adam are you banned from NEcromancy? or just spells that deal necrotic damage?
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
I recommend endzeitgeist's review.
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@MadMAxJr "An apprentice paladin goes to oust a dictator and ends up with a job in her government."
 
Adam
Adam
@NautArch It's not a ban. I can use them if I really want to. It's just going to have consequences in terms of what people think of me, as well as potentially causing some strain with my deity.
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
"Die Monster." "I have competitive wages and dental." "I'm listening....."
 
NautArch
NautArch
@Adam ah. But what about general necromancy? Like resurrection, revivify, spare the dying?
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
4:49 PM
@Lord_Gareth I may need to order one. If I do, I'll put up a review.
How is resurrection necromancy? (I get it schools of magic) ... one is reuniting a willing soul with a body and not controlling it. Spare the dying: healing. Revivify. Likewise.
 
Adam
Adam
@NautArch Those are all fine. Necromancy that creates undead is evil. Necromancy that can restore a creature to life, in general, is good.
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
Oh dear, I went and did it. Off I go.
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
Trying to remember how they justified that....
 
NautArch
NautArch
@KorvinStarmast Just a clarification - not getting into good/evil. BUt it seems like the dividing line is Necro damage, not necro spell.
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
I thought they had retagged healing/curative/raise magic as another type...
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
4:52 PM
@MadMAxJr Not exactly. At the start of the book Anastasia thinks her job is to smite evil things until they stop moving. Her journey through Mourners is in large part about learning that there's a whole lot more to doing good than sticking a sword in evil
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
You mean to tell me that good and evil is not a Yes or No affair? This is shocking news and demands a research committee.
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
I know right >.>
 
NautArch
NautArch
@Adam who is your god?
 
Adam
Adam
@KorvinStarmast The 5e SRD says "Necromancy spells manipulate the energies of life and death. Such spells can grant an extra reserve of life force, drain the life energy from another creature, create the undead, or even bring the dead back to life." So anything that has to do with life or death can be lumped into necromancy. It doesn't distinguish between restoring life or creating undeath
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@MadMAxJr 3.X retagged healing as Conjuration in a deliberate effort to make necromancy more evil. I dunno what 4e did but 5e went back to 'necromancy is life and death'
Which to me was a good move
 
Adam
Adam
4:56 PM
@NautArch Marthammor Duin
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
(And I say this as someone whose opinion of 5e is generally low; I appreciate this particular action on their part)
 
Adam
Adam
@Lord_Gareth I think lots of healing spells in 5e were reclassified into evocation, but I forget if they swapped any back into necromancy
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@Adam That's...a better fit than conjuration for the definitions and reasons given for the 3e swap?
Evocation deals in creating energy
So if you're creating positive energy to heal a guy, sure, awesome
 
diego
diego
@Lord_Gareth 4e from what I remember didn't really have schools of magic that powers were put into (other than wizards because they had somethings that cared about that), instead they just had a 'Healing' keyword that was applied to anything that could heal
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
I'll buy that for a clipped copper
3e was "YOU SUMMON POSITIVE ENERGY WHICH IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT FROM SUMMONING NEGATIVE ENERGY YEP"
Which was like, why
Why do this WotC
Why have you created this contradiction where there was none before
It was highly frustrating
@diego I can believe it but I can't really comment; I know very little about 4e myself
By the time I got over my grudge about how they handled the edition change, 4e books were no longer being printed
I quite literally missed the entire edition
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
5:00 PM
4e expected [TAG WORD] to solve all problems. ALL PROBLEMS.
"I have a question about this rule" "Great, I'm gonna put this [Has a question] sticker on your forehead. Lets continue."
Tiny bit of frustration with 4E mechanics. I loved how as a developer that stuff was easily understood and very procedural. New players with MMO experience adapted quickly. People trying RPGs for the first time without a lot of hands-on time with complex systems though were a little put off. Though for those players, the ability card decks helped greatly.
But the time of 4E is over, moot point.
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
@Adam Addition to my earlire statement: I'd want to see the inflict line and the like also be evocation if that's the case
Consistency, y'know?
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
Oh. Wait. We can do that.
Just put the [Consistency] tag on it.
 
Adam
Adam
@Lord_Gareth I'm afraid inflict wounds is necromancy. Something about necrotic damage draining life essence/withering the soul I bet.
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
SOLVED. Closing support ticket.
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@diego No, that'd be cool, thanks. (Sorry for the delay, too.)
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
5:05 PM
If you feel the classification of necromantic energy as evil isn't solved, you may open an escalation ticket with the council of magic.
Thank you for using WizDesk.
 
NautArch
NautArch
@MadMAxJr The current wait time is approximately infinite.
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
Well, infinite plus 3 hours. Someone used an unauthorized Time Stop and we're now behind on the queue.
 
NautArch
NautArch
@Adam Other than that god being NG, 'exploring' necrotic damage doesn't seem too far off base :P
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@NautArch Had a math class whose heads exploded the other day when I told them "almost infinite" is a precisely-defined mathematical quantification.
 
diego
diego
@nitsua60 Basically have a column with random numbers, then to the right of that have the data you want randomized. Then follow the directions here: excelbyjoe.com/using-excel-functions-to-dynamically-sort-data
Once it is working just hide any columns you don't want displayed
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
5:08 PM
Almost infinite. You know, when they taught you that for the sake of solving the equation in your life time, treat .9999999999999999999(continued) as 1.
 
NautArch
NautArch
@nitsua60 that must have been nearly infinitely messy
 
ACuriousMind
ACuriousMind
@nitsua60 I know "almost never" and "almost always" are, but what sort of rigorous meaning do you have in mind for "almost infinite"?
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
Almost infinite. That period of time where you hear the pizza guy open his car door until he rings the door bell.
 
Adam
Adam
@NautArch I dont think that's the kind of exploration that Marthammor is a patron of :p For example I don't think I could get away with slowly strangling an innocent man to death because I've never looked into somebody's eyes as they died and wanted to explore what cold blooded murder was like.
 
GreySage
GreySage
@Adam Do it for science!
 
NautArch
NautArch
5:11 PM
@Adam heh
Brain eating, tho...
@Adam But It also seems like 5e has separated necrotic power from the "evil raising dead" power. HOwever, if your fluff includes both, I don't think it'll really stop you. So no casting blindness/deafness?
 
Adam
Adam
@NautArch How could you say such a thing. I would never eat a brain! All those other times I was just...uh...joking! Yeah, it was a joke! Ha ha funny, am I right?
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
For this experiment we will murder both the control group and the experiment group. The experiment group will be raised from the dead. I don't see why you're objecting to my funding request, this is following the scientific process.
 
Adam
Adam
@NautArch I don't think I ever used blindness/deafness actually. I'd have to ask about that one
 
ShadowKras
ShadowKras
Necromancy is just a category, it doesnt bother much about what kind of energy or the purpose of that energy being chanelled.
Like, what kind of energy does the Illusion school manipulate?
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
Peace out y'all I'ma transform into a phone
 
ShadowKras
ShadowKras
5:14 PM
or the transmutation school?
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
Turn into a nokia, it has a better armor class.
 
Lord_Gareth
Lord_Gareth
I'm pretty sure a Nokia has immunity to physical attacks is what it has
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
Here at the society for positive necromancy, we take out all the scary parts of necromancy and give you a wide variety of useful goods and services! Just don't look in the box.
 
ShadowKras
ShadowKras
Necromancy is probably the school that has the worst definition:
*Necromancy spells manipulate the power of death, unlife, and the life force. Spells involving undead creatures make up a large part of this school.* (from 3.x/PF)
That is, by one word, a longer definition than the transmutation school, which owns 50% of the spells in the game.
 
Karelzarath
Karelzarath
"Transmutation spells make things more differenter."
 
NautArch
NautArch
5:19 PM
5e: "Necromancy spells manipulate the energies of life and
death. Such spells can grant an extra reserve of life force,
drain the life energy from another creature, create the
undead, or even bring the dead back to life.
Creating the undead through the use of necromancy spells
such as animate dead is not a good act, and only evil casters
use such spells frequently."
 
GreySage
GreySage
@NautArch Define "frequently"
Like, is every other week "frequent"?
 
Karelzarath
Karelzarath
Often.
 
NautArch
NautArch
It seems that only the creation of undead is "evil" - not the use of those energies to hurt people. @Adam your god cares more about the damage type then you actually hurting someone?
 
ShadowKras
ShadowKras
@NautArch so it has an 5-ish word definition, then a bunch of examples of spells that are iconic to necromancy. Yep, much better.
 
NautArch
NautArch
@GreySage maybe "regularly" would be a better word.
 
GreySage
GreySage
5:21 PM
@NautArch So only unscheduled minion creation, got it
 
ShadowKras
ShadowKras
As i said, necromancy "school" is simply a category, each spell could easily be classified in other schools if you look at them closely.
Most sages will discuss over what should cure/inflict spells be on a weekly basis.
 
NautArch
NautArch
@GreySage I think it's more about "are you using necromantic powers to create undead for your own uses and to use them as meat shields?" If so, then evil.
 
Karelzarath
Karelzarath
@ShadowKras Necromancy! They should be necromancy. thumps book
 
ShadowKras
ShadowKras
@Karelzarath to me, what defines the necromancy school is: "necromancers use these spells."
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
Necromancy: Bad juju. Don't use this as a joke on your bro. Powers skeletons and other bad crap. Put it in a box and give it to some holy dude.
 
Karelzarath
Karelzarath
5:23 PM
@ShadowKras Much as the evocation school contains spells that evokers use.
 
ShadowKras
ShadowKras
To be fair, a lot of divination spells should be classified as necromancy.
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
Evokers? Oh you mean AOE explodomancers of the Michael Bay school.
Summoners? My book says Disney Princess. See I fixed all the words in my book.
 
ShadowKras
ShadowKras
@Karelzarath yup, schools.
That's what they are.
 
Karelzarath
Karelzarath
@NautArch So, if I animate a bunch of skeletons to do manual labor, like clearing fields or powering a grain mill so that the village can enjoy a higher standard of living, that's okay?
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
Hey, their contract for farm labor was life plus ten years. I plan to collect. It was fair, they signed for it and got their terms in exchange.
 
NautArch
NautArch
5:25 PM
@Karelzarath Dead as slaves? I'd say no.
 
GreySage
GreySage
@Karelzarath "That there mill pumps out 15 skeleton-power of grain an hour!"
 
ShadowKras
ShadowKras
Take a look at blindness/deafness. Why is that necromancy? Simply because it says so. Making someone blind or deaf sounds a lot more like a transmutation effect.
 
Karelzarath
Karelzarath
@NautArch Slaves, though? Skeletons have no mind and thus no free will. Can you really enslave something with no will of their own?
 
NautArch
NautArch
@MadMAxJr That's more interesting. If they signed up for undead work, and the law of land allows it...maybe?
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
"But they're not slaves! We're using the bones and organically sourced magic, there is no soul here. But current legislation doesn't allow us to classify them as a construct."
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
5:27 PM
Okay, so one of my players wants me to homebrew a Centaur race.
 
Karelzarath
Karelzarath
Now I'm imagining "organic, free-range skeletons."
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
The person from this conversation.
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
@Yuuki No matter how you slice it, it is more powerful than other standard choices. In Pathfinder you can use the racial point-buy builder. Not sure what options 5e has.
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
@MadMAxJr I decided to take the variant Human as a template and make a small tweak or two and then just flavor it as Centaur.
 
Adam
Adam
@NautArch In the real world, re recognize that there are more humane and less humane ways to kill people. If you're going to hurt someone, you might as well try to be humane about it. In our fantasy world, necrotic damage isn't a humane damage source, and that's why it's evil. It isn't about the school of the spell, it's about the effect.
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
5:28 PM
Any thoughts on OP-ness?
 
NautArch
NautArch
@Adam ah! THen I would think that blindness/deafness would be out.
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
Which system is this, 5E?
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
@MadMAxJr Yes.
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
Not qualified to comment in depth, but every time one of my players wants to play one (which comes up every couple years), I ask this. "Sooooo... How does climb work for you?"
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
@MadMAxJr Depends on the surface, but I'd probably rule takes twice as long with a climber's kit.
 
ShadowKras
ShadowKras
5:30 PM
@Yuuki so the character is nearly twice the size of a normal person but still counts as medium?
 
Karelzarath
Karelzarath
@Yuuki I don't know 5e that well, but not being humanoid is a decided advantage against low-level spells like hold person and the like.
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
Mechanically, nothing prohibits them from doing everything like a normal player can. Logic may send up warning signs and say 'this doesn't make sense' as most player rules assume wait wait two legs, TWO LEGS.
Centaurs are totally a large creature. They're long buggers.
 
ShadowKras
ShadowKras
i mean, horses are large in 5E? right?
 
Karelzarath
Karelzarath
Maybe they're pony-sized
Pocket centaur
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
I just have a hard time picturing a centaur using a rope to climb a cliff face.
 
GreySage
GreySage
5:31 PM
Pygmy centaurs
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
Nano-centaurs.
 
Anaphory
Anaphory
pocentaur?
 
Karelzarath
Karelzarath
@MadMAxJr All upper body strength to just overhand pull themselves up.
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
@MadMAxJr It takes twice as long so I'm sure the centaur is having a hard time picturing it too.
 
ShadowKras
ShadowKras
@MadMAxJr think goats.
 
Anaphory
Anaphory
5:32 PM
@Karelzarath I do see people bouldering like that…
 
Adam
Adam
@NautArch Maybe. If blindness/deafness ever comes up, I'll find out and tell you the final decision!
 
Karelzarath
Karelzarath
@Yuuki The Equine Agility ability seems open for abuse.
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
@Karelzarath It's literally just part of the Mobile feat.
I took variant Human, fixed the stat bonuses, fixed the feat choice to Mobile, and fixed skill proficiency to Animal Handling.
 
ShadowKras
ShadowKras
To be honest, that race as written doesnt look appealing
It doesnt evoke the feeling of being a horse-ish person.
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
It's either that or go with shudder dandwiki.
Which I was linked, btw.
 
ShadowKras
ShadowKras
5:36 PM
what was the link?
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
dandwiki's Centaur gets 50 ft. movespeed and a trample special ability that allows them to add 3d6 damage on any melee attack where they move 30 ft or more.
 
ShadowKras
ShadowKras
you could add that in segments, not straight away +3d6 damage.
Like, drows no longer gain all their spell-like abilities at lv1.
 
Karelzarath
Karelzarath
No more insane SR right out of the gate?
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
@ShadowKras I'm honestly not concerned with that right now. I'm mostly concerned with game balance.
 
ShadowKras
ShadowKras
In 5E?
I mean, seriously? If the guy takes absolutely no racial traits and play a paladin, he is still stronger than a character that plays a ranger.
 
NautArch
NautArch
5:40 PM
equine agility is like the swashbuckler ability? THat may be OP.
 
ShadowKras
ShadowKras
I wouldnt bother a lot with game balance, i would bother with giving cool evocative and iconic abilities that makes you distinct from other races, while not empowering them with damaging abilities (i see those as completely unnecessary for a race).
 
NautArch
NautArch
I like the rider caveat, but feel that it'd be used anyway - does it need a penalty?
 
ShadowKras
ShadowKras
What are the real benefits of being half-horse (the lower parts, at least)? You are always mounted, isn't it?
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
@NautArch I'm not sure. It's something that I tacked on since I know the first thought that comes with having a centaur ally is some mounted combat.
 
ShadowKras
ShadowKras
What are the drawbacks of never being able to unmount? I can list a dozen, but i think you get the idea. Being half-horse is no more of a benefit than it is also a drawback.
So you dont have to worry much about abilities.
 
NautArch
NautArch
5:43 PM
@Yuuki same, so it seems that other than RP, there should be some issues mechanically
armor cost should be treated like barding.
4x
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
If I do that, I might as well make the size Large then.
 
NautArch
NautArch
assuming they can't find an inn that can take them. Or be allowed in non-centuar bars/restaurrants.
 
ShadowKras
ShadowKras
Then do it, large without reach.
Fast movement, penalties to move on uneven ground (like mountains, swamps, caves, etc)
 
NautArch
NautArch
Agreed @ShadowKras I think that's a good idea.
 
ShadowKras
ShadowKras
Whenever they have to walk inside a 5-foot wide corridor, they take squeezing penalties (disvantage i believe?) on all checks.
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
5:47 PM
Well, I'll talk it over with my player later today. If they want something more iconic or something extra, I'll bring up these options.
 
GreySage
GreySage
@ShadowKras I would imagine the centaur would be the same width, but double length, 1x2 squares, instead of 2x2
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
As it is, I think my current design is better as far as simplicity goes.
Though it definitely lacks in flavor/oomph.
 
ShadowKras
ShadowKras
@GreySage i actually dont know the dimensions of a horse in 5E.
 
Karelzarath
Karelzarath
@GreySage I thought they got rid of non-square creature spaces because turning became a huge problem.
 
NautArch
NautArch
@Yuuki Not making a true Large may work better (sort of like a Goliath). Keeps it simple, but I do like saying that armor requires barding and it's associated cost and some sort of penalty for letting a rider on board. Or that they just don't do it.
It just needs some negatives to go with the positives.
 
MadMAxJr
MadMAxJr
5:53 PM
I dunno how size mechanics work in 5E, so I can't comment.
"The party constructs a rope harness and pulls you up like cargo up the cliff face. You close your eyes and pretend you're climbing. Now can we continue?"
 
ShadowKras
ShadowKras
Yeah, climbing is no more complicated than lifting other party members that cant climb if their lives depended on it.
 
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