TRPG General Chat

Ryan

00:00

I must be missing something, how is Shield useful?

@Miniman

Miniman

@Ryan It's cast as a reaction to being hit, which means you only use it when you need it. It's +5 AC, which makes it the single biggest AC boost in the game.

It's saved my wizard's life, and the lives of both wizards who I've DMed for, countless times.

It's widely considered to be, not just useful, but overpowered.

Ryan

hmm interesting. I originally read it that way then for some reason re-read it and thought it worked differently

BESW

Five Webcomics That Put The #Art In #RPG http://geekandsundry.com/five-webcomics-that-put-the-art-in-rpg/ @muskrat_john @rustyandco @NamelessPC @d20monkey… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/852295592382525440

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NautArch

Shield is the bees knees

doppelgreener

@nitsua60 I don't know why I'd buy storage when I could just buy more knives

Karelzarath

00:09

@doppelgreener How else are you going to hold all those limes?

doppelgreener

@Karelzarath A rogue's preferred form of knife storage is in other people

Karelzarath

@nitsua60 In the games I've run and played, it just seems like a natural progression to eventually end up with at least a couple, I guess.

@doppelgreener But they never give them back, so you're forced to go get them. Major inconvenience.

BESW

@Karelzarath Stab a knife into each lime: now your limes have handles.

(Bonus: your knives have a blunt trauma option, and the sharp option is extra hurty.)

Karelzarath

Also, your stabs will begin chemically cooking your opponent, decreasing the time between killing and eating.

BESW

Mmm, tarrasque kelaguen.

Papayaman1000

00:18

I wandered off for a moment and I return to this. Are you my players, and did you murder the people who frequent this chat?

Shalvenay

hahaha, no

Papayaman1000

@Shalvenay That's what they would say. Or "Kick Papayaman1000 in the [redacted] and cut it off"].

Karelzarath

@BESW Precisely. Every battle is a culinary opportunity.

nitsua60

@Karelzarath My claim is that if portable holes are part of your natural progression, then so is murderhoboism. I'm claiming (though not defending the proposition at all!) that encumbrance actually solves the murderhoboism "problem."

Shalvenay

@Papayaman1000 -- come to think of it -- I wonder if I should let you have a whirl at one of my short-form dungeons sometime...xD

Papayaman1000

00:23

@Shalvenay Sure! And I'll put you in one of the random caves of mine. Hint: The prize for winning is "Power Word: Summon Steamroller".

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 -- so I was reading Angry's latest, and I'm actually a bit worked up because he starts to approach something, but doesn't go nearly far enough in his arguments -- he argues that DMs are being overzealous in hiding details of monsters from players (things like the DM not letting the players figure out AC or HP as a battle goes), which I agree with...

...but I also firmly believe that our characters have the tools to figure out qualitatively (rank scale) which options are good and bad for their future studies. (i.e. charopt-is-at-least-partially-IC)

Karelzarath

@nitsua60 It definitely forces them to get creative about it. And it means they generally can't loot anything over 6 feet in diameter. heh

Shalvenay

and that at least in some universes, HP or an equivalent quantitative score can be defined in an in-character way (shock! horror!), as well as many/most of the other statistics needed for optimization in that universe

Karelzarath

I'd love to have my players pursue settling in somewhere and establishing a base of operations. Next campaign is going to feature/offer explicit downtime in an attempt to foster that.

nitsua60

@Shalvenay It's the Rocky IV scale: you punch Ivan Drago as hard as you can in the face and his head barely moves? Rocky knows Ivan's HP through that whole fight.

3

trogdor

00:27

@BESW ick, somehow that doesn't actually sound very good

nitsua60

@Karelzarath Stay tuned... I'm actually currently crafting an answer along those lines. Hint, in case you hadn't guessed: I believe encumbrance has something to do with it =)

Karelzarath

@trogdor You don't have to burninate all your food, you know. ;)

nitsua60

And I still owe @troggy the true FR story of the owlbear some time. (Hint: the answer isn't "a wizard did it.")

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 yeah -- it ranges from the more qualitative rank-scale-ish information given by "reading" a foe in say D&D to being able to sit down at a firing range with a calibrated gun, so to speak, and various targets and measuring the amount of energy needed to achieve specific terminal ballistic effects (the latter being how to define it in a 'verse like EVE Online 's)

trogdor

@Karelzarath for this particular food though, I think it needs it

Karelzarath

00:29

Mmm... EVE Online.

trogdor

@nitsua60 yes it is, it's all a conspiracy to hide the fact that a wizard did it explains all things

nitsua60

There was actually (gasp!) a cleric involved!

Karelzarath

@trogdor Cooking a creature with resistance or immunity to fire would definitely need some method like kelaguen (h/t @BESW for introducing me to something new).

trogdor

why do wizards exist? a wizard did it

Shalvenay

(1HP is the amount of energy required to minimally penetrate a set thickness of Rolled Homogeneous Armor of a certain, standard composition, for example)

trogdor

00:31

@Karelzarath once it is dead it has no resistances

Karelzarath

@trogdor Don't harsh my headcanon, dude. :D

trogdor

@nitsua60 lies! LIIIIIIIIIIIIESSSSSS! XD

Karelzarath

@nitsua60 A cleric of a love god, a couple bottles of wine, and a fade to black.

Shalvenay

he also touched on "fear of metagaming" as a common reason DMs hide monster info -- which makes me wonder if metagaming is the single most misunderstood concept in the RPG sphere

nitsua60

@Shalvenay I dunno. I think it ranks third at best, behind "roleplaying" and "fun."

5

trogdor

00:34

@Karelzarath that god was just a really attractive wizard

Shalvenay

@Papayaman1000 heheh. what would a good time be for you?

Karelzarath

@Shalvenay I cribbed 4e's "bloodied" mechanic for my game: everyone gets four health statuses indicated by tiles under the mini. Green/Absent: 75%+, Yellow: 75%-50%, Orange: 50%-25%, Red: 25%-. Other visible information, like their combat prowess, is handled through narrative. I think that's more immersive than "25 hp left and AC 22".

@Shalvenay Woah, now. Get a room!

Shalvenay

@Karelzarath yeah -- I personally simply let players RE that from the dice results

although I do try to give an idea of what folks have for gear when I'm narrating them out

nitsua60

00:52

what's the term for a person who rents land from you and grows food on it? "Tenant-farmer"?

BESW

@nitsua60 Around here, it's "nephew."

nitsua60

lol

BESW

But yes, tenant farmer is probably the phrase you're looking for if the relationship isn't particularly exploitative.

nitsua60

@BESW were you saying the other day that 'round your parts establishments tend to follow two recognizable naming patterns based on the ethnicity of the owner? Like a Chamorro day care might be named "Happy Space" while a white owner might name it "Mary's Child Care"?

@BESW thanks

BESW

Asian owner/American owner, but yes.

nitsua60

00:55

Gotcha.

BESW

Chamorro names tend to follow American styles or be very literal but not always obvious.

nitsua60

Found it:

Apr 5 at 2:04, by BESW

BTW, to tie this into RPGs, worldbuilders take note that naming conventions change dramatically from culture to culture. Guam's more Asian stores tend to talk to you (super happy, what's up) and its more American stores tend to describe their owners or their contents (Gaylord's, Island Tropic Wear).

BESW

Like, Happy Birthday Road. Somebody had a birthday there once and left the sign out for years after.

nitsua60

(I'm just glad I got "Chamorro" right on the first try... had a little nervous sweat going there.)

BESW

Chamoru is also acceptable.

(And some people want it to be CHamoru, but that doesn't have a lot of traction.)

trogdor

00:57

why do they want that exactly?

BESW

urrrgh orthographical politics.

trogdor

nevermind

XD

BESW

"Chamorro" (not just the word, but the entire way of writing which that word represents) validates the Spanish-imposed orthography, but also acknowledges how a dozen generations of natives have written their language, imposed or no.

trogdor

I just wasn't aware of a movement to change the way people spelled Chamorro

BESW

"Chamoru" (again not just the single word but an entire orthography) uses the international standard orthography, placing the language on the world stage and rejecting the colonial Spanish imposition--but also marginalising the generations who used the Spanish orthography.

nitsua60

01:02

@BESW "Orthographical politics" sounds like one of those things--like "logging-road maintenance"--that sounds to the uninitiated like it's not that important, but which holds the same gravity in its community as a declaration of war would.

trogdor

if Spain was still the country taking control of this island, I could see that as a more legitimate issue,....

BESW

The orthography which proposes "CHamoru" is a locally coined orthography with little heritage from any outside source, and comes from an isolationist perspective of self-sufficiency.

trogdor

of course, America stole that role from Spain in a war that looks even more suspect historically than a lot of other wars, so fun times for all yay,.........

BESW

The CH is indicative of that radical independence: like in Spanish, the Chamoru alphabet in any orthography has "c," "h," and "ch" as separate characters. Unlike in Spanish --or any other language I know of-- the CHamoru orthography proposes to capitalise both C and H when "ch" would be capitalised.

trogdor

@BESW I mean, also, if more local people actually liked the idea it would sound a lot better, but it sounds like that isn't the case. not to mention the fact I never heard about this before

BESW

01:06

The Guam government has adopted the Chamoru (international-based) orthography as the official version of the language, with some particular spellings (like, ironically, Chamorro) grandfathered in from the Spanish style.

NautArch

has anyone tried the UA feats? I'm trying out the Blade Master.

BESW

@trogdor The entire orthography thing is mostly a Guam thing (the NMI doesn't care as much) and is largely hashed out amongst academics and activists. If you got anywhere near, say, Chamorro-language education discourse, you'd probably get an earful.

trogdor

@BESW fair enough, to me, with my limited understanding of it as is, it sounds like an attempt to thumb a nose at Spain,.... when Spain isn't really the place to thumb a nose at anymore

if you want to thumb a nose at someone, the U.S seems like a much better target nowadays

BESW

To be clear though, the orthography battles date from the 70s and 80s when local scholar-activists were at each others' throats about self-determinism and reconstructing lost culture. Each orthography had a cult of personality as well as a political faction behind it, and many younger scholars and activists are keeping their heads down on the issue until the previous generation dies and it can be discussed without being taken as a personal attack.

trogdor

I mean, some spanish already snuck into the language a long time ago,..... right?

BESW

01:12

Well, that's the issue, isn't it? ANY form of written Chamoru is going to necessarily take on the forms of the coloniser--either modern or current.

trogdor

@BESW fair enough, sounds pretty toxic honestly

@BESW yeah I know it isn't great but,... what exactly can be done about it other than just forget the language and literally make a whole new one?

BESW

The idea of using character symbols to represent speech isn't a native idea.

@trogdor And that's exactly what CHamoru is a step toward.

trogdor

um,.... what?

sorry that just,... seems like a really ridiculously small step in something that would cost a ton of time and effort

BESW

If you accept the premise that a written form is necessary, and recognise the need for something that can still be adopted relatively easily by adults, there's not a lot of room left for rejecting the language of the coloniser.

NautArch

the problem with language is that it's always evolving. There really can't be purists of language because every interaction in an expanding world brings change.

BESW

01:16

So what changes can be made, are, as representational violence where practical violence is impratical.

@NautArch Yes, but it's useful, in post-colonial discourse, to distinguish between internal change, change through co-equal interaction, and change through domination.

nitsua60

@BESW Sounds like time to boot up a chatizen Colonypunk game =)

BESW

One of the steps in working through post-colonial identity is facing the history of destructive change and choosing how to respond to its effects. You can't unmake soup, but you can put a potato in if there's too much salt.

NautArch

@BESW It can, but it also adds a complexity to the issue that, while important to understand for it's greater implications, is not necessarily directly affecting the conscious daily lives of those experiencing the changes to their language and culture.

trogdor

I think part of my incredulity is, I grew up hearing and seeing the local language slowly die,.... I personally feel like taking steps to actually preserve it is more in need than some weird fringe politics about an entirely separate colonizer than the one who is actually here now

BESW

@NautArch Right, and that's part of the discussion.

NautArch

01:19

History doesn't care about the why, it's the what that matters.

BESW

There are folks in the Northern Mariana Islands who feel that Guam's obsession with orthography is due to the fact we don't speak Chamoru conversationally as much as the NMI does.

When you're fluent in a language, they claim, the precise orthography becomes less important. (I think the French would disagree.)

NautArch

@BESW I would disagree with that as well.

BESW

But also, the NMI are in a different political situation than Guam is, and I think that's a big part of it.

The NMI are more politically post-colonial than Guam.

NautArch

It's almost like culture has a relationship to orthography

BESW

Gorsh.

There's a similar dialogue about indigenous dance; Chamoru dance traditions were effectively wiped out by the Spanish, and all we have left are Spanish depictions and descriptions. Most of the Micronesian cultures around us DID manage to preserve some extent of their dance traditions.

So reconstructionists have compared surrounding Micronesian (and even Polynesian) dances to the Spanish records and tried to create a representation of what Chamoru dance might have been like. This is fabulously controversial, and Chamoru dance groups are often ostracised at international gatherings for stealing other cultures' dances.

Papayaman1000

01:29

Oh dear, I just stumbled upon what I'm trying to do... minus eldritch samurai zomborgs.

BESW

@trogdor This is also part of the conversation; there are folks who say that changing Agana to Hagåtña is insulting the living ancestors who grew up saying "Agana" in order to salve the wounds of the dead pre-Contact ancestors who were forced to make that change.

(And also that it's harder to type.)

trogdor

@BESW this is also a concern XD

BESW

And of course there's the whole plebiscite thing, which is being framed as a Constitutional issue rather than a human rights issue.

Miniman

@BESW There will always be dire critics of words with weird symbols over the letters.

4

nitsua60

@Miniman did you ever run your final PotA session?

BESW

01:33

Which effectively boils down to "the US started an unprovoked war with Spain once, so the UN doesn't have any jurisdiction over the human rights of the Chamoru people."

Miniman

@nitsua60 Yep, although we didn't finish it - one of the players had a work emergency, so we paused halfway through the final boss fight. Still looking for a chance to finish it off properly.

trogdor

@BESW this, this right here is a thing that bothers me

BESW

@Miniman [groan] That was catapostrophastic.

trogdor

I hear people talking about it on the radio like the constitution matters more than human rights, they are not, I think "trying" to say it that way, but it seems to come out that way

BESW

I might even say it's a grave pun.

nitsua60

01:35

[facepalm] took me how long to notice that, even after BESW pushed my nose in it?

Miniman

@BESW Would've been funnier if I'd used an accent, of course.

trogdor

@BESW I know the real reason the UN has no jurisdiction there, because it has no teeth, at least when applied to the U.S and Russia, and China

possibly even applied to more places than that

Miniman

@nitsua60 Feeling a bit sheepish?

trogdor

not saying it can't do anything at all, but historically the UN has rolled over for those three countries rather often

nitsua60

@Miniman Didn't sleep enough last night. A little wooly-headed.

Miniman

01:38

@nitsua60 Better pay more attention - I'd hate to see you get fleeced.

nitsua60

@Miniman Can't pay much attention to chat--busy ruminating on an answer I'm crafting.

BESW

@Miniman "You will excuse me, but I know I am speaking in marvelous accent without the slightest English."

nitsua60

@Miniman Hopefully upvotes flock to it.

Ryan

So hard to pick a character. So many different things to consider :(

Monk was easy. I like Monk. Spellcaster is hard, too many spells and spell casting classes.

Miniman

@nitsua60 I didn't need the link, but thanks for giving me some extra info to chew over.

nitsua60

01:41

@Ryan Aah... yes.

Miniman

@Ryan Yeah, one of my players played a Cleric, then a Bard, then a Monk. It hadn't occurred to me until she pointed it out that someone could actually prefer having less choices to make.

nitsua60

@Miniman I feared it might be a bit of an obscure leap.

@Miniman Oh, absolutely. I love (sometimes) freeing up the head-space to lean back and just watch/interact with my table-mates.

Ryan

yeah Monk I already know my role. Stun, stun and stun some more. Lock down enemies.

Miniman

@nitsua60 It wasn't, but that was. Also, something about woolly jumpers, I guess?

Ryan

spellcaster especially since this is a small group I don't even know where to begin and feel like any decision is the wrong one. Maybe I just don't like the group :\

NautArch

01:44

@Ryan that's why after 10 or so levels, our monk asked to retire his character

trogdor

@Miniman blaaaah blaaaaaaaaaaaaah blaaaaaaah

BESW

@Miniman I used to give my 3.5 druids Vow of Poverty just to reduce the complexity of the character.

trogdor

XD

Ryan

Dwarf Warcleric and Goliath Paladin that just run in head first wanting to smash everything in sight

Miniman

@Ryan Well, what kind of thing do you want to be doing? Do you like throwing fireballs, or saving everyone's lives, or summoning creatures to do all the work for you?

@BESW The last Druid I played with made very careful choices so that he could use the same statblock for himself in Wild Shape and his animal companion.

NautArch

01:46

@Ryan and is there something you see missing in the party makeup that you'd like to fill

BESW

@Miniman [amused]

Ryan

Just read lots and lots of spells and the ones that look most interesting are Enchantments then Abjurations and then either Illusion or Evocation

BESW

BTW, @nitsua60, I was going through old chats for something else and found this:

May 31 '11 at 8:21, by Brian Ballsun-Stanton

Proposed Site Motto, Dave Arneson 1979: "I am not a sadistic and cruel DM, my fairness and the unbiased manner in which I obliterate expeditions slowly one character at a time is known by all my players."

NautArch

@Ryan I wouldn't be too focused on spell schools. Yeah, i'tll help you recover slots faster to stick with your school, but Wizard is versatile enough to pick the school that has the interesting features and still choose the spells that fit your character.

nitsua60

@Ryan 5e, right? What's the group? Personal friends? FLGS? Something else?

Miniman

01:49

@NautArch What do you mean, recover slots faster?

NautArch

@Miniman the arcane recovery?

Ryan

@nitsua60 random people at a game shop 5E Adventurer's League

NautArch

am i misremembering that?

nitsua60

@Ryan which hardcover are you playing?

Miniman

@NautArch Yeah, it has nothing to do with school

You might be thinking of the Divination ability where using a divination spell recovers a slot of a lower level?

Ryan

01:50

@NautArch I think only Divination has that. And I wasn't even sure if I should be a Wizard. Which class is best for Enchantment stuff?

trogdor

@Miniman I actually tried to play a druid who healed people and eventually would be able to summon unicorns to heal people for her, so 2 out of 3 XD

Miniman

@Ryan Bard or Wizard, probably.

Ryan

@nitsua60 no clue

NautArch

@Miniman Yes, yes I am. I made an assumption they all had it after I just bee-lined to Divination.

@Ryan I absolutely adore my bard.

Miniman

@Ryan As someone who mentioned Enchantments and Illusions, I suspect you're also looking at running around outside combat tricking people and being sneaky and stuff?

nitsua60

01:51

@Ryan What sorts of encounters have you had so far? (You're a session or two in, IIRC?)

Ryan

no not really

NautArch

@Ryan Bards are solid at enchantment and illusions. The cutting words against ability checks makes illusion very fun. But really only if the DM works with you on your illusion crafting.

@Miniman I see where you're going :)

Ryan

in that group only one session in. We went into a cave and fought a bunch of goblins. It was very hack and slash mindlessness. No puzzles or traps or anything

Then the DM gave us what I'm starting to think is entirely too much XP. We each got 300

Miniman

@NautArch Yeah, but I think the "no not really" was in response to that. Bard is still great even if out-of-combat shenanigans aren't a focus, of course.

@Ryan Nah, that would be because he wants you to be not at 1st level.

A lot of groups skip 1st level entirely, for pretty good reasons.

nitsua60

@Ryan Was there a river running through the cave, or a big pit at the back?

Ryan

01:54

um there was a bigger enemy at the back but I don't remember what it was

:(

Miniman

@nitsua60 Does SKT start with a cave of goblins? Because I think the only other one that does is Lost Mines.

nitsua60

Sounds like Lost Mine of Phandelver. Did you rescue anyone from these caves?

Ryan

Ashardalan?

nitsua60

@Ryan Hah!

Ryan

I have that written in my notes

maybe that was who we fought in the back of the cave

nitsua60

01:56

@Miniman Yeah, I'm trying to decide between SKT, PotA (which could have you with some caves, and GM might have reskinned something to goblins), and LMoP.

@Ryan I laugh because that's the name of a famous dragon-character from some older edition's adventures. (3e?)

BESW

I'm going to pretend PotA is Princess of the Asteroids.

Ryan

I don't know. All I know is there was no Roleplaying in that group. Just hack and slash

Miniman

@nitsua60 Yeah, 3e.

Also had a board game.

NautArch

@Ryan was there teamwork for the hack and slash?

trogdor

@BESW nice name yeah

nitsua60

01:58

@BESW Do you mean Leia, or Exogorth?

Ryan

Lost Mine of Phandelver I think is what he was using based on some other notes I just googled

Miniman

@nitsua60 Presumably Lumpy Space Princess rules over some asteroids.

BESW

Or rule 63 Le Petit Prince?

Ryan

@NautArch very little. They mostly told me to stay back and shoot Eldritch Blast while the Warcleric and Paladin just smacked anything they could reach

nitsua60

@Ryan Cool. That's a solid adventure (IMO). I actually wish WotC were producing/comissioning more in the 40-60 pp. range rather than solely year-long hardcovers.

NautArch

02:00

@Ryan That's...sad.

BESW

....or possibly an upcoming episode of Steven Universe.

Ryan

@NautArch thats how I felt. At one point the DM told another player to back off and let me make my own decisions

Miniman

@nitsua60 Well, I think Yawning Portal is supposed to fit the same "slot a quick adventure into a level gap" mold as LMoP.

NautArch

@Ryan Sounds like a decent DM

Miniman

No idea how well it works, though.

BESW

02:02

@nitsua60 I'm still looking for that introductory adventure.

Ryan

@nitsua60 yeah they mentioned this was short and could be completed in about 16 hours or so

nitsua60

@Miniman Yeah, it's certainly got that potential. I've read through some of it, but haven't run anything from it yet.

@BESW Ask @trogdor and @Shalvenay--perhaps I need to write up the one I'm running now?

(Actually, I've got no desire to write it up. But I would happily run it for you and some others; perhaps in the summer we could work time-zone magic.)

Or just hand troggy my notes after he's eavesdropped on the whole thing =)

NautArch

@Ryan I'd pick something that you're most interested in doing. If enchantment/illusions is your bag, then there's a lot of different ways to go with it. Wizard, Bard, Arcane Trickster, Trickery cleric (maybe)

Sorcerer with metamagic for subtle is another route to go. Given you don't know what your group may be, maybe also make sure your choice gives you a decent at will damage option.

Adeptus

FYI - Humble Bundle has a bundle of Brandon Sanderson ebooks & audiobooks, including the Mistborn RPG

nitsua60

@Karelzarath rpg.stackexchange.com/a/98021/23970

Adeptus

02:08

(and about half of the $1 tier is not available in my region)

Ryan

@NautArch there's nothing like MTG's Drain Life or WOW's Affliction Lock from what I see is there?

Miniman

@Ryan Well, Vampiric Touch.

Also, there's a few ways to gain HP or temporary HP from killing stuff.

Ryan

@Miniman hmm its something. That was the main reason I chose Warlock to begin with. Maybe I'd be better off going Wizard and focusing on Enchantment and Necromancy.

Joel Harmon

@Miniman it was a cute pun

BESW

02:24

> Soul-sucking. When you inflict a physical or mental consequence, you can reduce the severity of one of your physical or mental consequences by one tier, provided the lower slot is available.

Joel Harmon

@NautArch I'd throw in Warlock, too

DForck42

btw, dnd beyond has added the classes from the basic rules and srd: dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/news-announcements/…

BESW

02:56

Hmm. I need a well-known example of declaring that one has succeeded at one's clearly stated goals by changing them after the fact.

Miniman

@BESW I can't think of any good examples off the top of my head, but this page might be of interest.

BESW

I'm nursing a lit.se question that may need some examples of what I'm asking about.

Joel Harmon

did you try the wiki?

Moving the goalposts

Moving the goalposts (or shifting the goalposts) is a metaphor, derived from association football or other games, that means to change the criterion (goal) of a process or competition while still in progress, in such a way that the new goal offers one side an intentional advantage or disadvantage. == Etymology == This phrase is British in origin and derives from sports that use goalposts, such as association football. The figurative use alludes to the perceived unfairness in changing the goal one is trying to achieve after the process one is engaged in (e.g. a game of football) has already started...

BESW

(We don't have any Hubbard questions yet!)

Joel Harmon

in apparently at least one case, goal posts were literally moved

Joel Harmon

03:16

would it be cheating to blanket suggest anything said by a politician when campaigning vs. victories declared in office?

Shalvenay

hey there @JuneShores

JuneShores

Hi hi.

Shalvenay

how're things going?

JuneShores

Going alright. Just finished making yeast donuts.

Shalvenay

what flavor?

JuneShores

03:32

No flavor. Just buttery, buttery glaze.

Shalvenay

ah

I never got into glazed donuts

JuneShores

That's fair.

Papayaman1000

@JuneShores At least consider melting some cream cheese...

Shalvenay

makes papaya-flavored donuts for @Papayaman1000 and @JuneShores

Papayaman1000

@Shalvenay I actually hate papayas.

Shalvenay

03:35

@Papayaman1000 awwww

JuneShores

Sorry, but I... also hate papaya.

Shalvenay

darn (I've never actually had the chance to try it myself)

Papayaman1000

[I made this handle when I was twelve. That was twenty years ago. I don't even remember why, but I do remember I always hated the fruit. Don't judge.]

They're like sickeningly sweet mangoes

but just

ugh

Shalvenay

@Papayaman1000 and the name stuck...

Papayaman1000

Like if you've ever had a white mango-flavored fruit snack and it tasted awful

but more so

@Shalvenay No, more I had already used it too much to go by anything else.

Shalvenay

03:38

yeah, you're talking to the bloke who has 3 nicks on SE alone and is known by other things in other circles yet

(correction, 4 nicks, if you count the SO account I keep for professional reasons)

trogdor

I have a bunch of just random names I picked for stuff online

Papayaman1000

@Shalvenay I also keep some "professional alts"

trogdor

though technically I am also Trogdor on Discord and Battle.net

Papayaman1000

Like "AlbertsonDev" where it's not already taken

Shalvenay

yeah -- sometimes chat.SE goes spastic and switches my chat-name out

Papayaman1000

03:40

@trogdor For which game did you join Battle.net, if you don't mind me asking?

trogdor

origionally WoW

Papayaman1000

@trogdor ...ever... ever played... the original RTSes?

nitsua60

@Papayaman1000 insert joke about not eating much papaya, predicated on the notion that your alts are papayaman1001, 1010, 1011, 1100, 1101, 1110, and 1111; each "half a bite" of papaya.

Papayaman1000

@nitsua60 PFFT

trogdor

@Papayaman1000 like how origional? cause I played warcraft 3 and Starcraft, but not Warcraft or Warcraft 2

Papayaman1000

03:41

@trogdor Mostly Warcraft 3.

trogdor

ok then yeah

a ton of that

though I mostly lost when I played against other people

I preferred computer opponents because they were more predictable

Papayaman1000

@nitsua60 I use 1001 if I'm locked out of 1000 for whatever reason [like bricking my 3DS and needing to transfer my Nintendo Network ID by calling customer support]

@trogdor The guy who got me into it dominated players but was awful against CPUs

CTWind

I started on WC1 when I was a youngling. Still play the butts out of Blizz's games, and went into programming mostly because of my fun with the trigger system in their WC2/3 & Starcraft map editor.

trogdor

@Papayaman1000 really? they are sooooo much easier to beat

Papayaman1000

@CTWind WC3 custom maps were awesome

and... of course... The ORIGINAL Defense of the Ancients!

CTWind

03:44

I played a lot of DOTA (though I liked Tides of Blood better). Nowadays I play Heroes of the Storm :-P

trogdor

you definitely need different tactics against the computer, for sure

Papayaman1000

I never really got into MOBAs though, so...

trogdor

but at the end of the day, you can pretty much time when they will attack you, and the base strength of their troops, if not exact composition

Papayaman1000

@CTWind Honestly half the time I forget that game exists and the other half I vaguely remember it as the development name for Overwatch

trogdor

and they attack around ground paths, so you can put towers in choke points and kill a few of their guys and get them to retreat without damaging your army's numbers XD

Papayaman1000

03:45

@trogdor Or just type in allyourbasearebelongtous

trogdor

@Papayaman1000 pfft if you need to cheat against the comp I feel sorry for you :P

CTWind

I always used the fog of war cheat against AI because, well, they didn't actually get affected by the fog of war.

Felt only fair. >_>

trogdor

fog of war is ok, but giving yourself invincibility or free resources is a bit much

Papayaman1000

Unfortunately, you need to type it if you're using it [I don't] even if you took all their alkaline chemicals

@trogdor Well the CPU also has infinite resources

trogdor

@CTWind I agree there, the comp cheats that way automatically

@Papayaman1000 nope

I have literally killed them through attrition

CTWind

03:47

(I think Starcraft 2 is the first game where their AI doesn't cheat until the 'insane' difficulty or whatever the top tier is)

trogdor

they run out just like you do

Papayaman1000

@trogdor ...hrm. I swear that...

trogdor

maybe in the campaign they don't but in the normal games they have limited resources

CTWind

I've done like 10 AI FFAs and used the money cheats to 'revive' starved AIs

as the money cheats give everyone the gold/trees

trogdor

@CTWind I liked doing those Free For Alls in Starcraft

it was fun holding out against the chaos and fighting the last comp standing, or even being the only guy left with a standing army XD

Papayaman1000

03:49

A great designer (I think Guild Wars 2 or something idfk) once said "Of course the CPU cheats. They always do. They need to to have any competitive edge. THe hard part is making sure the player doesn't notice."

CTWind

Starcraft I liked doing it as a spectator. Warcraft I liked participating but just cheating to get as strong of a group of heroes as possible then only use them with no army. :-P

Papayaman1000

Paraphrasing

CTWind

Running around with just 3 level 10 heroes was fun.

Papayaman1000

@CTWind I like playing Night Elves and spamming Griffons. Strategy before then is building everything else to let me start spamming Griffons.

trogdor

@Papayaman1000 yeah, the trick is to not do it in too blatant a way, if they have infinite resoursces, people like me (who like to starve them) will find that out

CTWind

03:50

I liked going undead and starting with Lich + Frost Shield. +7 armor & move/attack speed slow was ridiculously strong before your enemy could counteract it with dispellers.

Papayaman1000

@trogdor My favorite thing to do is make one massive unkillable army that will incinerate smaller raider bands and steamroll anyone who uses them

trogdor

@CTWind sometimes I died in Starcraft FFA's because 3 comps would attack me in sucession, that always sucked, but when it didn't happen it was fun to look at all the enemy bases later, which were all dried up husks with barely any units sitting around

Papayaman1000

It leaves you wide open, a failed attack leaves you all but defenseless, and it's unworkable beyond 1v1, but hey

BESW

"Playing night elves and spamming griffons" sounds like a euphemism to me.

CTWind

I think I usually did 4v4 multiplayer when I actually played legit WC3 (TFT) and went siege tanks & spellbreakers as humans. They had some upgrade overlap (weirdly) and it let me be antiair & antimagic since siege tanks got their antiair splash attack.

trogdor

03:52

@BESW you can also mount the griffons XD

BESW

That's not a euphemism.

trogdor

@BESW just saying man

Papayaman1000

The day I first realized the AI cheats is when the CPU made a beeline for my fleeing army of treants just after withdrawing with a near-wipe of my base. I'm sorry but just no

By the way, fishing for ideas for: Cleric-style spell effect about equivalent in power to extending melee range by 25% scaling with casting cost.

Skyler

Hey guys, anybody ever thought about running a battle against an immortal being in 5e. Was listening to a song thats the boss theme for an immortal being who you literally have to beat until they fall unconscious (they still feel pain, think of it more like they CANT die) and I was wondering how you guys would translate that into 5e

Papayaman1000

@Skyler Perhaps challenge it to a fistfight. While it's locked in an unwinnable brawl with the monk, have the Rogue shove it in the bag of holding or something

Demilich + Bag of Holding = Easy Tomb of Horrors win.

trogdor

03:59

@Papayaman1000 well also, they know exactly when you expand

Papayaman1000

@trogdor Right. But still, "oh [redacted] all my troops are dead and I need those trees to GTFO" followed by "they literally turned around for no honest reason just to hit me with my pants down" felt a little... unfair.

BESW

@Papayaman1000 Isn't a demilich PC kinda overpowered for the Tomb of Horrors before you do the BoH win-button gimmick?

Papayaman1000

@BESW Who said anything about a PC? No, I'm talking the one you shove into the bag.

BESW

...why on earth would you put a demilich you don't like in a bag of holding? That's, like, the best possible place for a demilich and if he's not in one already you've probably got an idiot on your hands.

Papayaman1000

@BESW Because portable hole.

Fun fact: I once saw a party kill an Elder God by tossing the dwarf while he held the two fated items.

BESW

04:06

Eh, the lich pops the bag from the inside and laughs at you as his phylactery is entombed in a nigh-impenetrable extradimensional space from which he can astrally project at will.

(Assuming, you know, that he wasn't just an astral projection already. cf maybe you've found an idiot.)

Demiliches. I played one.

Papayaman1000

Anyways, balance question: If an offensively-oriented caster can reliably deal x damage at y level, then about how much should a Clerical mage be able to heal, assuming the same level and cost to cast?

Miniman

@Skyler What's the difference between "beating it into unconsciousness" and "beating it to death"?

Skyler

@Miniman thats what im asking you guys, there can be a few interesting interpretations imo

BESW

@Miniman If you're playing D&D 4e, only player whim.

Miniman

@BESW Same in 5e, too.

Skyler

04:19

maybe you have to consistently inflict high damage, give it a real jostling

or maybe it has a massive health meter

Miniman

04:48

@Skyler I think the thing to focus on is what you want the fight to feel like.

Anne Aunyme

08:25

When my players are facing someone who know they can't kill him I usually make him show that he doesn't take the fight seriously: maybe he will just spend the firsts rounds boasting about how invincible he is, even stabbing himself.

Skyler

@Miniman im taking a break from DMing to go back to my kickass tempest paladin sorcerer rogue so I don't really need to do much thinking on that end. Just wanted to see what others would do.

NautArch

11:52

I keep looking at the lich and really wanting to introduce it into a fight, but if you play them right they are crazy good. I've got a group that's 4 level 12 characters

what level is appropriate for them to be at to give them a chance to win if i play the lich realistically (a lich that also happens to be a wizard from a different campaign that used to be in the party :) )

Miniman

@NautArch A lich has an Intelligence of 20. It's literally as smart as it's possible to be without magical enhancement. Played realistically, no party should ever be able to defeat it.

Of course, this raises questions like "Why did it make such terrible choices when it was picking its spells?"

ACuriousMind

@Miniman Maybe spell-picking falls under Wisdom, not Intelligence :P

Miniman

@ACuriousMind Hey, it's not like its Wisdom is too shabby either.

NautArch

@miniman that was definitely the feel I got.

BESW

I once had a lich NPC do a stupid thing because her friend asked her to.

Another lich wasn't very good at gauging emotions and how far he'd pushed his allies, because he didn't have any friends. Got betrayed by a vampire minion.

...yet another lich had parallel goals to the party and didn't want to fight them, so pulled his punches until they would stop and talk.

(Almost every D&D 3.5 campaign I ever ran had a lich somewhere.)

Oh, and he's not technically a lich, but the yuan-ti Worm That Walks had too much self-loathing (because as a Worm That Walks he's not a yuan-ti anymore, and that's terrible for a yuan-ti to contemplate) to focus on all the right parts of his plan.

In other words, by my thinking "played realistically" includes having a personality with loyalties and foibles, blind spots and conflicting agendas.

nitsua60

12:16

@Miniman Hmm... so does your average L8 wizard =\

Miniman

@nitsua60 Yeah, but they don't have the resources to back it up :P

NautArch

I like the idea of a minion betraying him. That's an interesting plot hook and rp device.

Sabotage seems the only realistic way to bring him down

Cue beastie boys

Papayaman1000

On a scale from "wouldn't waste the spell slot" to "too OP", about how powerful would a spell be that buffs its target so they can deflect beam and bolt spells with their weapon and potentially aim it at a new target[DC 15/DC 20 WIS check, respectively]?

For reference, at about the same level I'm putting a buff that allows 1:1 healing from melee strikes.

NautArch

@Papayaman1000 5e?

Miniman

@Papayaman1000 Both of those are incredibly powerful.

Also, you'll have a lot of work ahead of you defining "beam/bolt spells".

nitsua60

12:32

The "off with their heads!" answer is getting a not-insignificant number of upvotes.... It makes me wish OP had actually engaged. I'm not saying I want the result, but I sure would appreciate sincere discussion of why it's a good or bad idea.

NautArch

@Papayaman1000 in way it's counterspell+, but with a type limitation.

BESW

nitsua60

@Miniman Yeah, the "tilting-floor hallway over pit of lava" is a bit of a niche item. =D

BESW

@nitsua60 Seriously though, if anybody wants to engage with the ideas there in a useful way, I'd hope they're taking the time to say it again in a more communicative fashion.

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