TRPG General Chat

Erik

15:00

Even the Silence spell mentions nothing about it being easier to hide inside it's area

Adam

@NautArch I don't think whiffed is the proper word. Passed the buck might be a better term. For all we know, they didn't assume anything. Their assumption might well have been "Let the DM make the decision"

They weren't concerned with coming up for a set of rules and assumptions for every scenario. they gave us enough to run a game and handle most situations, but they expect the DM to fill in the gaps. This is one of those gaps

NautArch

@Adam which is likely the case. but it seems a pretty obvious/easy thing to include in the heavy/light obscurity rules.

Erik

I know that Mutants&Masterminds tried to handle various senses to some extent. It didn't usually make things any better when you had to compare your list of active senses vs the situation vs what your opponent knew you had and tried to hide from

NautArch

mostly annoying because it creates a potential need for a DC check where no such checks are commonplace for visual perception. Unless there is a very specific scenario, I don't think you're going to ask your players to roll a DC check to attack someone that they can see if there isn't a mechanical effect limiting that sight.

Erik

"the bad guy is hiding from you" - "ah, but does he know I have special sense X?" - "uhm... I don't know."

Adam

15:03

But it's a niche thing. 2 years of playing 5e, and I can't remember a time when hearing was actually that important. In fact, you are the first person I've talk to that has brought up any issue related to hearing that I can recall.

NautArch

@Adam haha, i think it's because generally we use the rules as they are and keep it simple. Can't see someone? Well, you can still hear them. done and done.

DForck42

@nitsua60 the way I understand the rules and the situation, the creature is unseen but not necessarily unheard. a good perception check (probably with disadvantage) could allow a pc to detect which square an invisible creature is in, but they're still at disadvantage to hit the creature

nitsua60

@Adam Yeah, they never swung at it. =)

NautArch

@DForck42 so you are saying that those environmental interactions and sound the creature makes isn't enough.

it seems the disadvantage is the RAW bonus for being invisible - not that they don't know your location because you are still not 'hiding".

Yuuki

Unless you're radioactive Daredevil, hearing will never be as accurate as sight.

DForck42

15:16

@NautArch well that's what perception is (or survival, depending), a character's learned ability to track things through sight, sound, and smell

you could rule that if you're in a particular environment, the perceiving person either doesn't have disadvantage or does get advantage on the roll

if the creature isn't being careful to hide as well

NautArch

@Yuuki but it isn't JUST hearing. It's hearing and how they're interacting with the environment. My table plays invisibility as location unknown, but that doesn't seem to be what RAW is. It doesn't say anywhere in Invisibility that they don't know your location - just that you have advantage to attack and disadvantage to be attacked. And the blinded condition so that you can't be targeted by spells/effects that require sight. GIving it auto-hide is a big deal for a 2nd level spell.

@DForck42 Basically, does invisibility gives you an auto-hide or not? If so, what becomes the DC check? Is it DM related, passive, or an active stealth roll?

Yuuki

@NautArch Well, I was piggybacking onto "detect which square an invisible creature is in, but still at disadvantage to hit".

nitsua60

@NautArch Same rules apply as all checks, and it sounds like we might be missing the ever-crucial step 1: DM decides whether a check is even called for. (DMG p.237)

Yuuki

Incidentally, this is why you should bring a bag of flour at all times.

Or a can of paint, I guess.

DForck42

@NautArch actually we talked about that. it's a lot more like pass without a trace

Adam

15:20

@NautArch If you feel like auto-hide is too much, just use the normal hide rules. It's a stealth-check versus a perception check. You decide whether the perception check is passive or active. Invisibility gives advantage to the stealth check

nitsua60

Creature is invisible, out of the way, not moving, and trying not to make any noise? As long as you're not a tremorsensor or blindsighter, I'm not going to call for a check. They're hidden.
Creature is invisible but still trying to participate in melee? You basically know where it is, predator-style. It's just harder to hit (disadvantaged), because you have trouble focusing on the fine-scale motions of CoM, subtle turns, &c.

Adam

If the Perception check beats the stealth check, use whatever reason you want to resolve it in world. That could be hearing, or dust, or footprints, or whatever.

NautArch

@nitsua60 I agree, although if you're not moving or doing anything...why not take the Hide action? You basically HAVE taken the hide action.

Adam

@NautArch because if you hide and then move into plain sight, you arent hidden anymore. If you are invisible, you could stay hidden even if you move carefully

nitsua60

@NautArch 'Cause I'm probably taking the Nap action =)

NautArch

15:22

@Adam Okay, but now you're requiring a check for something you don't require a check for ever visually. THe sum total of their environmental interactions (footprints, dust, sound, etc.) will never be equal to vision. And I don't see anywhere that says or suggests that this needs to happen.

@Adam but you're saying that you get the Hidden bonuses (or something like pass without a trace) for free with invisibility. which it doesn't say you do. That seems like a very big give that if it was RAW, they'd have said that while invisible your location is unknown without a check.

DForck42

@NautArch the tl; dr is that the spell is missing details

which basically is up to the dm to fill in

Adam

@NautArch the rules are pretty clear, though I can't remember exactly which page, that if you step out into the open and something can see you, that you cannot hide from that thing. Even with pass without trace. If I stare at you, you can't hide from me if you are visible. Invisibility primarily lets you hide even when you are in plain sight

NautArch

@Adam right, so you still have to take the hide action. you can just do it now in plain sight. giving it for free doesn't seem like the intent. and that's what asking for checks is doing.

Trish

people just don't acknowledge the senses other than vision in any degree similarly. We are visual creatures. Our olfactory sense is deaf, our audio band is weak... in comparison to other beings. And our eyesight isn't the best either, but it is our most acurate sense.

NautArch

althoughi agree it's more realistic.

Joshua Aslan Smith

15:25

concur, the key use of invisibility is always being able to make hide checks

DForck42

I personally think that, if the spell works as I read it, a creature won't know unless they make a perception check. if the creature hasn't take then hide action then it is probably a dc 15, with disadvantage or advantage given the environment. if the creature has take the hide then it's against their stealth check

NautArch

@Trish but 5e isn't a simulation. my table, and i'm guessing most, play it like that. but i don't think that is raw.

Adam

@NautArch Then don't give it for free. If you give hide for free, then there is no check. If you don't give it for free, then the rules say a contest has to happen for hiding. If you don't want a roll to happen, you use passive scores

Asking for checks isn't giving the hidden status away for free, it's resolving whether or not you are hidden at all. Invisibility is letting you hide in a very tough circumstance to work around: there is no cover and this thing can see me. If I'm not invisible, I don't even have the chance to hide. If I'm invisible I can try to hide from it

Trish

@NautArch on my table, unless you actively mention listening carefully, I assume you don't listen for stuff like footsteps somewhere.

nitsua60

@JoshuaAslanSmith mental note: make lots of Nap checks if I ever play at JAS's table =)

NautArch

15:30

@Adam exactly - you can now HIDE when you couldn't before. But you are ALSO saying that it gives you additional bonuses to not being found. I don't disagree with this realistically, i just don't see the RAW behind it. We're trying to fill in a gap of realism that isn't necessarily the rules.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@nitsua60 lol

probably wouldnt be 5e though id just run Dungeon World instead

NautArch

@Trish I think this is a bit more focused in a combat situation where the rules do assume you are aware. In a non-combat I could see being more situationally dependent.

nitsua60

@JoshuaAslanSmith Ahh, so a defy consciousness move, rather?

Joshua Aslan Smith

hahaha

Adam

@NautArch Then don't give those penalties and just say "sure, you know where he is, make the attack you have disadvantage because the invisibility rules say so"

NautArch

15:31

@Adam that's what I think the raw is.

Adam

I'm giving those penalties to being found because I feel that the circumstance of being invisible warrants them "as a DM" if you don't agree with that, then you do you.

NautArch

right, so is adding that houserule and not raw?

Yuuki

@JoshuaAslanSmith Yes, I concur that invisibility should grant you the ability to hide if you didn't before, but I'm not sure if invisibility should act as if you are always hiding while it's active.

nitsua60

On a 6-, that damn woodpecker is back, take +1 to grumpy going forward. On a 7-9, player chooses one of the following:
- fine nap, but you wake with a bad case of dry-mouth
- little restless, you're not sure you actually fell asleep
- you oversleep and jolt awake in terror, running to get ready for work only to realize it's actually 5:30 pm

Trish

@NautArch in combat? listening for footsteps IN COMBAT?! DC for that should be in the "impossible" range, unless the invisible thing is really loud or they manage to silence all others.

Yuuki

15:33

@nitsua60 Oh god, dry-mouth is the worst feeling.

Joshua Aslan Smith

1-6, you are wide awake, your mind rummages over the problems of the day and you keep thinking about that report due tomorrow.
7-9 You manage to sleep, but choose 1: Have a terrible nightmare -1 will mod till next rest, sleep in a weird position -1 con mod till next rest, or punch your fist into a hard surface as you toss and turn, deal 1d6 damage to yourself
10+ Sleep and wake well rested, take 3 forward on any actions that day

Yuuki

@Trish I mean, if we're going fully realistic then taking even 1 or 2 hit points of damage should mean that it's going to be at least a few weeks to recover, not just a short/long rest.

NautArch

for instance, the Perception for noticing threats (which is really what this is, no?) states: Use the passive Wisdom (Perception) scores of the
characters to determine whether anyone in the group
notices a hidden threat.

Adam

@NautArch The DMG says that it's my right as the DM to decide what circumstances determine advantage or no when making a check where the rules don't codify anything. You could argue that it's a houserule because the rules don't explicitly say that there is any change to the DC or the way the roll is made. But RAW also says I can make this call because I feel it appropriate

NautArch

if you're not "hidden", then your location is known.

Yuuki

15:35

Last I checked, my paper cuts don't magically heal because I took a nap. /s

nitsua60

@Yuuki Hey now. It's not nice to point out one's major failings. (I'm looking at you, D&D's notion of HP.)

@Yuuki I'm not sure you're napping right =)

NautArch

@Adam right, i'm not saying you can't make the call. I'm saying that there is a rule for this, and the DM can make exceptions as appropriate.

Yuuki

@nitsua60 To be fair, I am apparently waking up with dry-mouth.

Which is still the worst thing.

Trish

I don't mind HP, but the ambient noise of combat is far above 60dB, canceling out any noise smeone carefully moving will do. On my table: Unless you have super hearing somehow, No listen checks in combat. Ever.

Adam

@NautArch There is a gap which I am filling as I see fit

Yuuki

15:36

@Trish But see, now we're picking and choosing our realism.

nitsua60

@Trish My AL character currently has a passive Stealth of 30, so I concur. Or I would, if you-all could hear me. =)

NautArch

@Adam but is there a gap because you a perceive realistic gap or that the PHB doesn't handle the scenario. Not saying you don't get to know their location when there is a specific mechanical choice (HIDE) that does so seems problematic.

nitsua60

I think it's worth noting that we're in the one area where, despite DMG237 saying that whether or not to even issue a check is the GM's call, there are actions a player can take which explicitly say "make a check." It's a fundamental contradiction in the work-flow that sits right there in the rules.

You're both hewing correctly to one portion of it, and there's no way to honor both.

DForck42

@nitsua60 I like making players roll

makes them feel more useful

nitsua60

@DForck42 I like making them roll passive --->

=)

DForck42

15:40

@nitsua60 lol

NautArch

@nitsua60 except that again, to do so seems to be adding an additional ability/functionality to Invisibility. It doesn't say you're location isn't known - just that creatures have disadvantage on attacks against you. WOuld have been pretty simple tos tate/errata if locaiton wasn' tknown or provide a system to find it.

Yuuki

> Catapult is almost universally underrated by every guide. People look at the 3d8 bludgeoning damage and stop there.
The true power of Catapult is that it weaponizes the entire equipment list. This is a spell that not only scales with slot level, it scales with money. You could be catapulting acid, alchemist's fire, ball bearings, caltrops, dead chickens, flour, mayo, nets, oil, or just about anything else you can come up with in your twisted imagination and package in a breakable container. You'll never look at an Alchemy Jug quite the same way once you go down this road.

Adam

@NautArch You could tweet JC if you really want to

nitsua60

@NautArch sorry, I'm only half-following this conversation. To do what would add to invisibility?

NautArch

without that bit, it leaves this discussion of how to handle it. So the question remains, is it not there on purpose (location IS known) or is it a fill in the blank.

@nitsua60 making the location of the invisible creature unknown (ignore all sounds/envrionmental effects/things that don't get hidden if no HIDE action is taken)

@Adam yeah, don't really care that much :) especially since my table plays it realistically as location unknown.

more of a thought exercise

and don't use twitter

DForck42

15:42

@NautArch my personal opinion is that you know where they were LAST, but you don't know if they have moved. you could: 1 - swing at the spot they last were, and if they moved it's a complete whiff, but you don't KNOW that they weren't there or if you just missed. 2 - do a perception check to determine if you can find them.

NautArch

@DForck42 i understand personal opinion, but it still seems like you are adding conditions that aren't present in the description because it makes sense. COmbine with the intent of adv/dis to be a MAJOR piece of 5e, their non-inclusion of inability to locate seems on purpose and handled with "yes, you know where they are because you perceive other things but you aren't sure about exactly and hence have disadvantage" You still can't get an OA on them because you ca'nt see them.

Adam

@NautArch 5e encourages DMs to change things based on personal opinion and what we think will be the most fun though. The rules are just guidelines.

Yuuki

@Adam As Geoffrey Rush once famously said, "the code is more what you would call guidelines than actual rules".

DForck42

@NautArch I'm not understanding what your issue is. it's a spell that is lacking detail. it's going to be house ruled to make it work, one way or another. either you automatically know where the creature is at all times (which, imho, violates the spell RAI), or you have to add some checks

NautArch

@Adam Yes, but there still is usually a baseline. I'm asking what the raw baseline is, not how a table could change it (which I get.)

Yuuki

15:48

Followed by "Welcome aboard the Black Pearl, Miss Turner", but as you are probably not Keira Knightley, that last part likely doesn't apply to you.

NautArch

@DForck42 I guess I"m saying I don't think it's lacking ind etail. I think it is explicit in detail. The problem is, it doesn't seem realistic so we are feeling the need to play it differently.

being invisible but locatable still provides a LOT of bonuses. You get adv on attacks, disadv on being attacked, can't be targeted by spells requiring sight, are immune to OA because they can't see you. That's quite a bit. Adding that something has to roll to perceive your location gives a whole lot more. It basically makes you invisible_pass without a trace without casting it.

Adam

@NautArch Well, in that case, we've established what the baseline is. Unless you succeed in hiding, your location is known and attacks have disadvantage against you because the invisibility condition says so. You can try hiding in plain sight because you cannot be seen, and you can't be targeted by spells or effects that rely on sight.

Trish

@Yuuki comeon, why are you staying at catapults? You need a Trebuchet spell, that can fing large boulders! weaponizing the equipment list isn't enough: Weaponize the landscape and your enemies by flinging them into the enemies!

NautArch

@Adam that's what I was trying to say :) But clearly much less eloquently. But i also don't like that either and play it like how all of you play it :)

Yuuki

@Trish I'm not sure how capable Wizards are at lugging around 90kg objects.

NautArch

15:53

@Yuuki I'm looking for to the catapult spell with a wizard i'm building. You can't really weaponize things like ball bearings, caltrops, nets as those will break and just do the bludgeoning damage. But breaking jars of oil/acid/poison...now we're talking!

Yuuki

And I'm not sure how often you'll need to hit something 300 meters away.

@NautArch How would ball bearings or caltrops break?

DForck42

from the srd-oql on pg 358: "Invisible
• An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense.
For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature’s location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.
• Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage, and the creature’s attack rolls have advantage."

Trish

@Yuuki you don't need to lug them around... you take what you find. like the ork attacking you. You don't need to hit something specific... the falling damage after going up and down the arc of a trebuchet is what gets rid of the (un)life in the projectile. If you smash some enemy army bits, even better.

Yuuki

Put them inside of a container. The container breaks, scattering the caltrops/ball bearings.

NautArch

@Yuuki i was looking at with the response from here rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/96932/…

Yuuki

15:55

Eh, I wasn't thinking additional damage.

Trish

@Yuuki Ohhhh, buckshot?

NautArch

@DForck42 so that leaves the second bullet as to "can be detected" means "is detected" or that a roll is necessary. Vague language is vague :( DOn't know if that "can be" is used elsewhere in other ways.

Yuuki

I was thinking they take the Catapult's 3d8 bludgeoning damage and now they're surrounded by ball bearings/caltrops.

Or entangled by a net.

Trish

@NautArch can be X = is a valid target for X

Yuuki

Or covered in mayo.

DForck42

15:56

from ogl-srd p 86 "A heavily obscured area—such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage—blocks vision entirely.
A creature effectively suffers from the blinded condition (see appendix PH-‐‑A) when trying to see something in that area."

NautArch

@Yuuki the net was answered in that question, but i'd think the others would follow the same logic. Basically the spell intent seems to be take anything and fling it. Not every item has HP, but 3d8 is seems enough to break most. a ball bearing could crack if you hit it with a hammer. or flatten to a non-usable item. same with caltrops.

Yuuki

2 mins ago, by Yuuki

Put them inside of a container. The container breaks, scattering the caltrops/ball bearings.

DForck42

from ogl-srd p 358: "Blinded
• A blinded creature can’t see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.
• Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature’s attack rolls have disadvantage."

NautArch

@Yuuki d'oh!

@Yuuki interesting...can you attack a creature with ball bearings? This seems very DM dependent, but rule of cool awesome.

DForck42

@NautArch "can be detected" to me indicates that a player needs to make a check

it probably should actually read "may be detected"

Yuuki

16:00

@NautArch Well, in my previous uses of ball bearings, they don't damage but they make it so that an Acrobatics (or other systems-relevant) skill is required to move through the squares with ball bearings.

Otherwise, you slip and fall.

NautArch

@DForck42 yeah, but that's a big difference "A cantrip is a spell that can be cast at will". Which means there are times when the DM can say you can't.

Yuuki

Catapult explicitly says that it deals 3d8 damage to target and object launched, which in this case would be a container of ball bearings (though not the ball bearings themselves, I would argue).

nitsua60

@Yuuki I'm not sure catapult would break the alchemy jug... magic item damage resistance and all....

NautArch

@DForck42 and i'd think most of those have mechanical reasons (you're bound, gagged, etc.) but not because you perceive there to be a mechanical reason that isn't actually there.

Yuuki

So a Catapult-launched container of ball bearings would deal 3d8 damage, the container would likely break because 3d8 damage, and the square the enemy is occupying would be covered in ball bearings.

So they would need some sort of Acrobatics or Dexterity check to move.

NautArch

16:02

@Yuuki i love it, but i do think you'd have to ask your DM about it. I sure as hell will :)

nitsua60

@Yuuki Why not just cut to the chase and catapult your party's barbarian into the mix? They'll rage and resist the damage, and you'll both be exactly where you want to be?

Next turn, catapult in the HAM paladin. They'll haricut some of the damage and provide an aura for the barbarian.

Yuuki

I mean, that's certainly an option. But sometimes, we just want to cover our enemies in mayo.

And then hon hon, I shall taunt them a second time.

nitsua60

Next turn, catapult in the life cleric. If they survive, they can keep the other two up. If not, you're a wizard alone in the world with a whole bunch of loot. Win-win =)

Yuuki

16:15

At some point, catapult a Warforged Fighter that's been hit with Enlarge Person.

STANDBY FOR TITANFALL

LegendaryDude

16:33

@NautArch Re: shocking grasp and armor, I'm not sure how not being able to target a shield makes a difference? You can't target armor, either.

Trish

@nitsua60 did't I say "shoot the enemies onto the enemies" earlier? Isn't a Barbarian in ragemode an enemy?

Ryan

on my lunch break and reading more D&D 5e stuff. Trying to understand "Multiclassing" if I get it correctly as a Warlock with Charisma 16 that just earned enough XP to level up I can either become a level 2 warlock, or a Warlock 1 / Bard 1 or Warlock 1 / Sorceror 1

is that correct?

LegendaryDude

@Ryan Pretty much

You don't need 16 CHA, 13 is the requirement, but yeah bard and sorcerer are natural choices for multiclassing with a warlock

Because of the single dependency on CHA

Paladin isn't too much of a tough choice either with warlock

Ryan

yeah I just meant since its over 13 on the CHA. I think my DEX is at 14 as well

I'm really thinking about re-rolling a Monk before I level up any further but want to understand the options better before deciding

LegendaryDude

You should know that multiclassing will prevent you from ever reaching some class levels, and thus will lock out some class features

Ryan

16:45

ah makes sense so I could be like a 20 Lock / 0 Bard. A 17 Lock / 3 Bard. Or a 11 Lock / 9 Bard as an example?

if i want to get to level 20 with a particular class I can't multi at all

LegendaryDude

@Ryan Well yeah but if you're a warlock 20 then you're not bard 0, you're just a warlock

Any more than you are a fighter 0, sorcerer 0, monk 0, etc

Ryan

yeah but it was better for communicating the idea :)

LegendaryDude

Okay, yeah otherwise you're spot on.

Ryan

Could go 19/1 but if I go even 1 into something else then I can never hit 20 with the main

LegendaryDude

Yes

Ryan

16:49

I understand there's some additional books with more classes and races for 5E. Are those also multiclassable in Adventurer's League that I should at least try to read up and see if they're interesting

Yuuki

@Ryan Unless your DM decides to level endlessly.

LegendaryDude

@Ryan There are no books with new classes, but the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide has a few new archetypes for existing classes.

@Yuuki That'd be entirely a house rule; leveling specifically stops at 20 (the DM can give out epic boons after 20).

@Ryan And there are new races in Volo's Guide to Monsters and the Elemental Evil Player's Companion, but keep in mind that Adventurer's League has a PHB + 1 rule, so your character can only use content from the PHB + 1 other legal resource (so in this case, either the PHB + SCAG OR PHB + Volo's OR PHB + EEPC.

NautArch

@LegendaryDude yes, you can't target armor, but you are targeting the person who happens to be encased in armor. Rather than targeting the thing they are holding.

LegendaryDude

@NautArch I just don't see much of a difference. Especially with a shield, where you are more likely to throw it in front of you to deflect the hand of the person reaching out to touch you.

Ryan

@LegendaryDude so I know one guy in that group is playing a Goliath which I think is from Elemental Evil. So then if I want to do something different it would have to also be from Elemental Evil book?

LegendaryDude

16:53

@Ryan No, it's per person.

NautArch

@LegendaryDude I'm seeing it more as the fluff that interacts with Shocking Grasp. It'snot just that it's metal, but that the metal is all around the target.

LegendaryDude

@Ryan Also, the goliath is also printed in Volo's Guide.

@NautArch I believe the person encased in metal is at less risk of shock because the metal is going to be the path of least resistance to the ground.

DForck42

@LegendaryDude an epic boon (houserule) could be to give the player a level in a class, or to give them the features of that class at that level

Ryan

oh okay per person works. So I can do whatever I want within PHB and 1 book. Good to know

thanks

NautArch

@LegendaryDude get your realism out of my 5e! :D

DForck42

16:55

I'm hoping that wizards is smart and releases at least one higher level module

LegendaryDude

@DForck42 Is that one of the epic boon options printed in the DMG? I can't remember.

DForck42

@LegendaryDude I don't think so, I pulled that out of my a$$

LegendaryDude

@NautArch Well, as the metal armor conducts electricity it will become a superheated plasma (TIL), so... it's not all sunshine and rainbows.

Ryan

I just hope to get into a Homebrew game soon where I can have some real fun

NautArch

@Ryan my table doesn't do published adventures...i have no idea what one is like. Homebrew FTW.

Ryan

17:03

ooh if I do switch to Monk I should certainly switch to an Aarakocra. They seem tailor made for Monks

NautArch

I'm seriously loving Yuuki's idea. Going to be asking my DM about it when we get closer to session 0.

diego

17:24

@Ryan If you are playing is the Adventurers League Aarakocra are not a legal race you can choose

Adam

@diego I thought the Elemental Evil Player's Companion was AL legal.

diego

@Adam It is, but the Aarakocra is specifically not allowed

Player Information for AL "Choose a race. This season, you can use any race from the rules listed above, except for aarakocra."

Adam

I learned something new today! Lucky 5000 I think it was.

Yuuki

17:40

Is it because flight?

IIRC, variant tiefling is allowed and they get a less restricted access to flight than aarakocra.

diego

@Yuuki The page doesn't say, but I think that is a safe assumption. If the tieflings get flight from level 1 they are also not allowed

Adam

Did a little more digging and found this: "Race options that grant a fly speed at 1st level
are not allowed for D&D Adventurers League play at
this time" http://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/AL_PH_SKT.pdf

diego

@Adam Was just about to quote that too :)

Adam

The chat nuances catch me every time :p

Ryan

18:10

ah well I just picked up the PHB and glanced at the other books. Aarakocra seems the coolest but there were a few in Volo's that I'm gonna read up about online

didn't want to shell out even more money when I've only played the game once so far

NautArch

@Ryan what monk type are you considering? If shadow...get something with darkvision :)

Yuuki

If you plan on mostly using two-handed weapons, is there any reason to pick a longsword over a greatsword?

Karelzarath

@Yuuki You found a sweet mini that only has a longsword?

Ryan

I like all 3 monk types. Think Open Hand seems the coolest but also the least useful in group play. Leaning towards either Open Hand or Elemental

Shadow sounds cool but don't really want to pretend to be a ninja

NautArch

@Yuuki nope. 2d6 or 1d12(greataxe) is better than 1d10. Unless you think you might also go sword/board and want the option.

Adam

18:15

@Ryan I never played the elemental monk, but my friends tell me that the ki costs are all out of whack

Ryan

@Adam yeah thats what I've read but I don't see it. Not that I'm experienced but it seems reasonable for the advanced abilities

like Water Whip. 2 ki points and you deal 3d10 then since you've already connected if you want to you can burn some more ki for additional d10s PLUS either knock the opponent prone or pull them in. That doesn't sound overpriced to me

Adam

Can you chose to use more ki when it hits to deal more damage? I thought you had to spend all of you ki up front. Regardless, at the low levels you have so little ki that you can really only use these abilities once per rest, and it only works on one enemy.

Ryan

I don't know. I never played way I read it made me think you could pay for it after it connects

DForck42

@Ryan how many ki points do you get at this level?

diego

@Ryan I don't have my books with me so I can't double check these numbers easily since it involves non-SRD info, but that seems weak.That seems to be about the same power level as a 1st level spell. At level 3 a fighter or thief can cast 2 1st level spells, a monk can only use that once. Granted the monk gets ki points back on a short rest, but they also have other ability that use them too

Adam

18:24

@DForck42 You get 1 ki point per monk level, and you start picking up disciplines at level 3. So you could have as few as 3 ki points when you get water whip

Ryan

I'm more interested in Way of the Open Hand I just recognize that outside of combat it doesn't have much going for it

DForck42

@Adam ahh ok. do ki points restore at long/short rests?

Adam

@Ryan True. Its out of combat options are rather limited.

@DForck42 After either if you spend at least 30 minutes meditating.

DForck42

@Adam cool

Ryan

18:40

woah a Tabaxi Shadow Monk could be pretty ridiculous

Feline Agility + Unarmored Movement + Shadow Step + Dash

Zachiel

"Who's this person you keep naming, pal?"
"He's the god I serve as a priest, the god of courage, of the hunt, of procreation and of justice!"
(later in the same conversation)
"So you have a girlfriend, great! How may children are you planning?"
"Uh... none"
"But, but... you told me you are a priest of the goddamn god of procreation. Why?"
"Because I'm controlled by a horrible roleplayer"

Sigh!

DForck42

@Zachiel lol

Zachiel

@DForck42 You lol. I cringe.

NautArch

@Zachiel did the player say that? If so...give that man/woman inspiration!

Yuuki

@Zachiel That's a rather eclectic portfolio.

NautArch

18:50

what god is that?

Zachiel

@NautArch I am the player. The god is Nobanion.

So, it turns out that not wanting to be called high priest, asking around for help in learning about religion and playing basically as a holy warrior makes me not really suitagle for taking the PrC I would need if I want my character to be strong (hierophant).

NautArch

@Zachiel where did you get courage/hunt/procreation/justice? I'm reading Nobanion is royalty/lions+feline beasts/good beasts. Kinda the opposite of the hunt. unless it's hunting it's prey, maybe.

Ryan

unarmed attacks count as melee attacks. Do they also count as weapon attacks?

NautArch

@Ryan need to check sageadvice, but pretty sure they ruled no.

DForck42

@Ryan melee <> weapon

Adam

19:01

@Ryan in 5e unarmed strikes are not on the weapons table, so it's reasonable to assume that they are not weapon attacks

NautArch

@Ryan yeah, the same. sageadvice.eu/2016/08/29/why-cant-the-monk-stun-with-unarmed

DForck42

@Adam I think they are actually in the errata

Adam

The errata was to remove them from the weapons table

unless they added them back in like ninjas

NautArch

@Ryan @Adam you're good. unarmed is a melee weapon attack.

but only for amonk

well, kinda...see the link :)

Adam

JC, your inconsistency confuses me sometimes

Ryan

19:03

"Because of your claws, you have a climbing
speed of 20 feet. In addition, your claws are natural
weapons, which you can use to make unarmed strikes."

not sure what errata is

Zachiel

@NautArch well, the just hunt. Hunt only when you're hungry. But they baptize the young by smearing their hand in the blood of their preys.

DForck42

@Adam ahh

Adam

Unarmed strikes are not weapons, but attacks with them are melee weapon attacks. I suppose because everything either needs to be a weapon attack, or a spell attack

Ryan

uh... what?

lol

Zachiel

Unarmed strikes are not manufactured weapons

Ryan

19:05

Unarmed Fists are not weapons but Striking with those unarmed fists are considered Weapon Attacks?

would that be a decent way of putting it?

Adam

@Ryan errata is a list of publishing errors. Basically, WoTC released a list of errors that were printed in the various source books, along with what should be the correct text. One of their first corrections was that early printings of the PHB have unarmed attacks on the table of weapons. The correction removed them from the table, saying "Unarmed strike doesn’t belong on the Weapons table"

diego

11

Q: Is an Unarmed Strike considered a Weapon attack?

For the purposes of the fighter Battle Master archetype, whenever a maneuver calls for a "weapon attack" does that include an unarmed strike?

Adam

Confirmed. Your fists are not weapons, but you can use them for weapon attacks

Ryan

cool! Seems like Monk that dips into Ranger would be pretty amazing then with Hunter's Mark

extra 1d6 on each flurry

NautArch

@Ryan just be aware about that bonus action to move the mark to new targets competing with your monk bonus actions. My paladin almost never uses hunters mark because of the bonus action economy.

Adam

19:12

@NautArch What do you usually use your bonus action for?

NautArch

@Adam GWM. I'll take that bonus action attack after I kill a fool over an extra d6.

@Ryan and if you want to flurry, you can't move your mark.

Adam

@NautArch Ah! That makes sense. I always forget about GWM. I usually go sword and board myself

NautArch

@Adam yeah, i was pretty bummed when i realized that. Vengeance always has it prepared, but i've never found the right time for it. If I"ve got multiple enemies, I'm generally good enough to kill at least 1/round so the GWM is a much better offer.

Adam

@NautArch There are reasons why people joke that spellcasting for paladins is just a trap. I feel like this is one of the reasons why

NautArch

@Adam I can see that - although I'd say smite spells are more of a trap. Some of the buffs and other stuff can come in very hand (my love of command, Shield of Faith, protection from good/evil)

but generally, those slots are much better used for smites.

*divine smites

Adam

19:24

The only spell that I think is worth using in a combat situation is bless. The slot for pretty much every other spell, I think, is better used for a divine smite in combat

NautArch

yeah, my cleric never does it so it's either me or nothing. and i'm often going for something else instead of bless (SoF, haste, protection)

Ryan

what do you all wish your party would have class wise but nobody ever seems to want to take the responsibility?

Zachiel

@Ryan The healer

Adam

Unnecessary in 5e completely

diego

@Ryan More ranged abilities

Specifically ones with a range of 60ft+

Delioth

19:30

@diego does a thrown halfling count as a ranged ability for a warforged barbarian?

diego

@Delioth As long as it goes far enough, yes it does

Adam

@Zachiel That was a bit quick of me. My apologies. But I end up getting shoe horned a lot into that role and I can tell you from experience that my party uses me as an excuse to not use all of their other resources for healing, and I end up super frustrated since I too have other spells I can cast besides healing word and cure wounds

Ryan

@diego like ranged damage or all sorts of ranged stuff? That was part of why on Monk I was looking at Elemental or dipping into Ranger. Might weaken myself but I feel like my party is going to have some real trouble with range or flyers

NautArch

@Ryan the lore bard! or any sort of battlefield controller instead of specific damager.

Ryan

its a Goliath Paladin and Dwarf Cleric I'm playing with unless more join

NautArch

19:32

@Adam agreed, healing is generally not a must-have. although my bard (previously mentioned) has picked abck up cure wounds after our cleric bit the dust.

Adam

@Ryan Some dudes with AOE would be nice. Everybody takes the single target spells, or the single target classes. Very rarely do the people in my group pick spells that could hit more than one person except, maybe, for magic missile

NautArch

and by bit the dust, i mean torn into two pieces.

Ryan

hmm I havent read much about Bard's yet. I'll read about him now. I really like crowd control. That was my specialty in World of Warcraft

Adam

@NautArch Having a pocket heal spell is fine. Having a dedicated healer who's job is just "cast spells when our health is low, or pass your turn" is no fun

NautArch

@Ryan lore bards are pretty amazing - are you rolling stats or point buy?

Ryan

19:33

When I started the Warlock and went with a bunch of AOE stuff the more experienced guy was upset and wanted me to sit way back and shoot Eldritch instead :\

NautArch

@Adam and totally unnecessary. SHort rest hit die can do the job for the most part.

Ryan

Point Buy I think is required in Adventurer's League

NautArch

@Ryan ah, yes. sorry. forgot it was AL.

Adam

@Ryan You can use the standard array

diego

@Ryan My party has the issue where our wizard and my bard/warlock are the only ones with good ranged options. A few others like the druid and monk had ok options, but they weren't really useful when we had to hit things 70ft away and they have ranges in the 30-60ft range

NautArch

19:34

Still, the lore bard is a ton of fun. It can be nearly anything you want. Good in and out of combat utility.

Ryan

I read the Bard is considered top tier

that kinda turned me away. figured if its top tier it would be popular

NautArch

@Ryan top tier?

doppelgreener

does 5e actually have a tier list yet?

The Oracle

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Q: How is the community doing?

We wanted to take a minute to check in and see how the community feels like things are going on the site. A little more than a year ago, we had a pretty lengthy discussion about site problems; it mixed in a specific debate about the [rules-as-written] tag, concerns with comment deletion, concerns...

discussion

Ryan

@NautArch the most overpowered class. the top class.

diego

19:36

@Ryan I think bards are considered one of the better classes, but the variance between the best and the worst classes isn't super high (especially compared to previous editions), so I don't think you will run into a ton of them

It is not overpowered however

Ryan

enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?455464-Classes-Rated-By-Tier

NautArch

@Ryan ah. THey're definitely a great class, but i'm not sure how many people actually choose them. The biggest issue is they aren't really a direct damage dealer top tier and that often doesn't work with a lot of people. and I guess in previous editions they weren't well loved. But they're really powerful and you can really tune it to your type of character.

diego

@doppelgreener It doesn't have a list like 3.5e did, but there are ones like the one Ryan linked to. However the power differential is much flatter than 3.5e, pretty much all the classes in 5e would be tier 3-4 in 3.5e (IMO)

Ryan

I really liked playing a Trap Hunter on the original World of Warcraft (I was one of the only ones). So far Stun Monk seems the closest to that style of locking opponents down and using agility

Adam

@NautArch "Jack of all trades, master of none" I think really fits the 5e bard. I've never seen a bard in my games and thought "Man, he's so much better than me, and it's just because of class features"

doppelgreener

19:40

@diego flatter tier lists is good.

diego

@Adam With Magical Secrets and Expertise it is more of a 'Jack of all trades, master of a few'

NautArch

@diego very true. but maybe not master, just more than jack :) You're good at a lot of stuff, VERY good at a few things, but master of none. Except for messing with dice rolls. Bardic Inspiration/Cutting Words are awesome. I've basically got a spell/action option for nearly every situation.

enemy is a HP soak with no magic resistance? hello animated objects! multiple enemies that can be charmed? Hello hypnotic pattern! Going up against casters? Hello counterspell and dispel magic! etc. etc.

Adam

@diego I suppose so :p My point being that when you think "tier one" you think "Does everything that every other class can do, and probably does it better than that class" And while the bard can do a lot of stuff, and a lot of it is stuff other classes can do, I don't feel they overshadow any class to the point where I would say "Why play [class] when I could play a bard instead"

Ryan

for the range you guys feel is missing is it to get guys that are say on top of a cliff shooting down at you or is it just so one guy can take out distant people while everyone else works on closer ones?

diego

@NautArch Being able to choose any spell from any list allows you to become the master of whatever you want to. They also tend to be the master of social interactions since they have the ability to have all the relevant skill, and usually good to amazing modifiers in the appropriate stats

@Adam In 3.5e that is tier 1. In 5e since the power between classes is much flatter nothing really gets to the 'better than another option in all areas' level of power

NautArch

19:46

@diego yup - and debuffing if they're rolling against someone with cutting words. My group has yet to hit a town, but there are some die-hard gamblers and I can't wait to go into a gambling hall while invisible and use cutting words with my warlock ability to communicate telepathically.

diego

@Ryan For the encounter my party had the issue with there was no closer enemies, just a half dozen throwing javelins off cliffs

Adam

@diego It let's you specialize for sure, but the pure original class still has some greater level of mastery. A fireball shot by an evocation wizard or a draconic sorcerer is going to be stronger or "better mastered" than one shot by a bard who is copying the spell.

diego

@Adam Just because someone is better than you at something doesn't mean you haven't mastered it

Adam

And just because you can perform a skill doesn't mean you have mastered it ;)

diego

@Adam That is true. Though for non-skill based abilities there generally are too many gradations other than can/can't do it.

DForck42

19:54

@NautArch speaking of lore bard, I've gotta start thinking about what spell/s I wanna take for magical secrets at lvl 10

diego

@DForck42 What did you pick up at 6? And what other spells do you have?

Adam

@diego Indeed. Though I will agree, expertise is mastery. So they do master some of their skill proficiencies

NautArch

@DForck42 my initial go-tos were Bigby and Wall of Force. But upon further reading of WoF, I'm not a fan. I'd go Destructive Wave and Bigby's hand.

DForck42

@diego at lvl 6: burning hands (has been SO effing useful) and lightning arrow

from what I can remember: vicious mockery, prestidigitation, dissonant whispers, dispel magic, cloud of daggers (might swap this one out tbh), polymorph, hold monster

@diego actually I've got a word document, uploading it to google drive

MadMAxJr

Guh. All that MTG talk last week. You guys made me find my two decks I kept after quitting MTG.

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