TRPG General Chat

BESW

00:38

RPG Designers: I am available for development gigs. Fluent in Fate, GUMSHOE, 5e, and other open systems, but I can pick up your rules fast.

Tweeted by PaulStefko on April 4, 2017 at 12:15 PM

Steal These #RPG Mechanics to Make Your #DnD Game Better http://geekandsundry.com/steal-these-rpg-mechanics-to-make-your-dd-game-better/ https://t.co/AusTkkDwsD

Tweeted by GeekandSundry on April 5, 2017 at 1:01 PM

Shalvenay

hey there @NautArch

Ben

00:56

o/

@Miniman One particular house rule I like, is the use of Bronze. Druids hate metal, and refuse to wear any metallic armour. However, since Bronze can sometimes incorporate non-metals, it's technically "ok", as far as their beliefs go.

this goes for weapons as well

trogdor

@BESW lol, protocol droid of game designers

Shalvenay

hey there @Ben

and hey again @Ash

user15026

Hello again. Just got home from work, so it is dinner making time

Shalvenay

ah, catch you after dinner @Ash?

user15026

No worries, dinner is mostly of the wait for the oven to do the thing kind :)

trogdor

01:10

I like that kind of cooking myself

Shalvenay

@Ash ah :) catch you once it's in the oven then even

trogdor

lets me do other stuff and still be able to eat something XD

Miniman

@Ben Thematically speaking, I like bronze on druids, but it's a bit of a stretch to say bronze doesn't count as metal.

Shalvenay

yeah -- I'm a bigger fan of having ironwood/darkwood stuff available for them

@Ben how're things going btw?

Ben

@Miniman Oh, yeah of course. It is metal, there's no way around it, but the idea is it's more of a natural alloy - less stuff in it (without getting too technical)

@Shalvenay Well enough. Still in the middle of organising moving, and work etc., but things are cooling off a bit. I had my first game in 3 months this week! Haha.

Shalvenay

01:14

@Ben heheheh

Miniman

@Ben Ah, so like this theory about cold iron.

Shalvenay

hoping to swing a longer-form campaign once again in the near future even as an opportunity looks to have opened up

Ben

@Miniman Sort of, yeah.

@Shalvenay Awesome :) My problem is that all my games always seem to stop, due to one reason or another, and never really come to a close. They just end with no conclusion. Hopefully though, Things should start back up again.

Shalvenay

also, having an interesting time in nitsua's game, and might be taking my 5e short-form to a local convention too

Ben

Nice

Everyone, say hello to Doug

Shalvenay

01:21

xD

@Ben -- got a bit of time to spitball some stuff in the NAB? :)

Ben

For those that missed it - My DM is in the Cavalry in the Australian Army, and has recently been re-deployed. My character, Doug Ironhands, was so brutal in combat that we often used gifs of tanks as analogies to describe his combat proficiency. So, now that he is the drvier of another new tank, he named it "Doug" after my PC

Shalvenay

@Ben which system/campaign was Doug-the-PC from?

Ben

D&D 5e. Human (variant) fighter, with a greatsword, and Great Weapon Fighting. His tactic was to run into the middle, and swing until there was nothing left. Worked pretty well.

Shalvenay

haha

Ben

The DM also gave us some pretty sweet gear - the Warlock got a flying broom, the Ranger got a cloak of stealth (can't remember the name of it), and Doug's sword, which was reforged from 5 other swords (long story, but nothing special - basically they just made 5 swords into one, cos he was so massive and needed a big sword), the DM gave him several magical attacks, that were "awoken" from the hearts of the blades his sword was forged from

Shalvenay

01:28

hey there @daze413

daze413

@Shalvenay hey hey

Shalvenay

how're things going?

daze413

anything interesting coming up?

Shalvenay

not a ton

working on getting into a long-form campaign

daze413

didn't end up getting sick coz of the rain, which is nice.

new UA, is out, which is cool

wondering why "Cause Fear" is much much better than actual "Fear"

being really linient with a player starting up as a kensei monk.

@Shalvenay the talespinners one?

Shalvenay

01:32

@daze413 no, different one, I'm not the DM

(PFRPG, and I'm looking to roll up a Druid)

daze413

@Shalvenay I see, what's the hook? buy-in?

Shalvenay

@daze413 looks to be somewhat sandboxy

fairly standard high-fantasy

Miniman

@Ben Cloak of Elvenkind?

Ben

@Miniman That's the one

daze413

@Shalvenay how is the talespinners game you're running going, btw?

Shalvenay

01:37

@daze413 sadly, the playtest with Reibello is stalled due to him being busy

Miniman

@daze413 I was like "What do you mean better? Fear hits multiple creatures and forces them to run away." And then I was like "Holy crap, there's no way to end Cause Fear. Yikes."

Shalvenay

hopefully I can get Ash and co. set up for a run over the next couple of weeks

NautArch

Howdy all

daze413

@Miniman Might be an oversight, I'd definitely allow a save after the end of every turn. Still, the 25 HP thing is pretty baus.

@NautArch tips hat

Miniman

@daze413 It's kinda like Sleep - it's gonna be OP at low levels, but it's not gonna be too long before you forget that it exists.

The 25 HP thing, I mean, not the whole spell.

NautArch

01:41

Is cause fear better than vengeance paladin abjure enemy?

Miniman

@NautArch I don't have it in front of me, but there's no saving throw for abjure enemy, right?

daze413

@Miniman I think it's wisdom

@NautArch I think Abjure is better because it doesn't require concentration

Miniman

@daze413 Ah, I was mixing up abjure enemy and vow of enmity.

@daze413 Also, it reduces their speed to 0.

On the other hand, abjure enemy ends if they take damage, so that's a big plus for Cause Fear.

NautArch

true, no con and movement restriction, but we're also equating a channel divinity with a level 1 spell.

daze413

Yeah, it's pretty hard to break Caused Feared (Caused fear? Cause Feared? Cause-Fearded?)

NautArch

01:45

that ain't right.

i mean, abjure is miserable anyway. I've never used it, it's all about vow of enmity. but cause fear seems a bit crazy.

daze413

it's a short rest cooldown, it's going to be better

@NautArch The frequency of using Vow, I find, decreases if you allow Flanking.

But I am seriously considering taking out flanking in all my games.

Miniman

@daze413 Flanking is a huge game-changer in so many ways.

The impact it has on balance is absolutely immense.

NautArch

@daze413 we use flanking, but still often use vow. i've only got one other frontliner in a small party and we generally split up.

daze413

@Miniman Yeah but it cuts both ways, which is why I'm realllly reluctant to take it away

NautArch

@Miniman i do agree flanking is crazy in 5e. I don't think it should be used given how they've designed it around the impact of adv/dis, but as a player i ain't complaining.

well, that's not true. I did, but my table likes it.

trying to decide between cause fear and sleep for my upcoming divination wizard now. just replaced chill touch with toll the dead.

Miniman

01:50

@NautArch Honestly, I can't even figure out if it's in the players' favour or not.

daze413

@Miniman me neither... I guess for solo's, yes. Solos need to have a way to get out of being flanked. But you could also just send in mooks to flank the players. (which is what I'll be doing with our upcoming playtest)

Miniman

@daze413 Well, if we ever get to it >.>

daze413

@Miniman This sunday, right? :o

with @Shalvenay and @nitsua60, same time

Miniman

@daze413 Hopefully!

daze413

So far, i don't know if it's my inept ability as a tactician, the players tend to get more benefit out of flanking than creatures

NautArch

02:01

@Miniman i definitely get surrounded, but i also get to take out at least 1-2 creatures/round.

daze413

but I guess that is as intended. I mean, what does flanking bring into the game? An interesting tactical choice to get to the opposite side of a creature? Is that even a choice? When will you ever not flank? What happens to the creatures with Pack Tactics (poor kobolds!)?

NautArch

@daze413 sometimes it's hard to flank huge/gargantuan creatures. or the battlefield design makes it hard to get on opposite sides.

there have been a lot of times where I just couldn't get into flanking position and i still had to use my vow. We also tend not to rest as much, but I've been trying to get those when it seems possible to do so.

Shalvenay

02:58

oh hey again @Ben

Ben

o/

pc crashed

Shalvenay

mind hopping back into the NAB?

Ben

Sure. just ping me

Ben

03:41

DDo people remember the discussion we were having about the maximum distance you are able to move in a turn?

cc @Miniman @BESW @Shalvenay

Miniman

@Ben Not really - I've had a lot of those discussions.

Wait, was this the one about jumping?

Ben

Yes

The point I just thought about, was the argument about the time it takes to move the full distance, and whether or not you can move the full distance in a turn.

Miniman

@Ben Oh?

Ben

But what if you move first? If you can't move the full distance (i.e. it takes longer than 6 seconds), are you just incapable of doing anything else?

Miniman

@Ben Presumably, proponents of the "hang in midair until your next turn" would say that you can make attacks/cast spells/whatever in mid-jump.

@nitsua60 Any thoughts?

Ben

03:48

So, because it takes too long to cover the distance, if you want to make a melee attack, you simply can't reach?

Miniman

@Ben Well, yeah. I don't think anyone on either side of the argument would let you make melee attacks based on "I'll be in reach next turn".

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're asking, which I suspect I might be.

Ben

Ok, let's use this very basic visualisation...

Each point is the position in the jump, over time

Miniman

Yep, I see what you're getting at.

Ben

So... In which case, if that movement takes 6 seconds, and you have to complete the movement in your next turn, then the logic extends to any other actions that are not bonus actions (i.e. instantaneous), correct?

Miniman

@Ben Assuming I'm understanding your question correctly, no. If you use all your movement, that doesn't stop you from using your action.

Ben

04:02

I'm basing this of the argument that your actions are restricted to a 6-second time frame. You've got 6 seconds to move, and act.

Miniman

Ok...I mean, you're already on shaky ground there. And personally, I think the "hanging in midair" is kinda nonsensical, so I might not be the best person to talk about this.

@Ben But. If we assume that your turn is made up of six seconds in which to move and act, then using all six seconds on moving is represented by the Dash action.

Ben

Well, I personally don't really enforce this one way or the other. I suppose I'm just trying to understand the logic behind it.

I like poking holes in things... and see how well they get sealed up after haha

Miniman

So if you Dash, then use all your movement, you've used all 6 seconds on moving, and you can't take an action.

Whereas if you use all your movement without Dashing, then I suppose you've only used ~3 seconds on moving, and you have ~3 seconds left for an action.

Ben

Which is where this extended jump throws a spanner in the works

...or does it?

Miniman

I don't think so? You're allowed to break up your movement and actions however you please, so the fact that you would have to take an action in the middle of your movement isn't actually an issue.

Ben

04:08

BESW

06:18

I seem to fuzzily recall that rounds and turns each last the same six seconds.

Miniman

@BESW Yeah, they're theoretically simultaneous.

BESW

ie, sequential turns are an artefact of the mechanics but narratively each turn in a round is concurrent.

Meaning there is no "hanging in the air while other people act" narratively.

Sequential turns are more of a non-literal representation of who has the drop on whom.

No pun intended.

trogdor

06:37

@BESW vidicated XD

@nitsua60 see this ^ I win XD :P (I don't think I get a prize though)

Skyler

06:50

@Ben for the record, you have to be jumping at more than 30 meters/second in this figure

@BESW it could be the case if he jumps at say 40 meters a second, though with that leap he wouldnt touch the ground before his turn ends

Ben

07:14

@Skyler Well we figured that with my current stats, with the Jump spell, I could jump ~55-60 feet

Skyler

@Ben so unless you jump overwhelmingly in the upwards direction you should probably be in the air only for 3-4 seconds

@Ben irrespective of your horizontal you'd need to jump to a height of ~120 feet in the air

to be in the air for 6 seconds

Ben

@Skyler Well the whole idea was brought about by the desire to somehow move myself directly into the middle of a hostile area, effectively getting the drop on people.

Skyler

you're y velocity is the only hard determiner of your travel time if jumping velocity isnt fixed

but jumping what is that, 10 stories+, seems a tad excessive

Adeptus

@Skyler In case you haven't noticed, D&D doesn't follow the laws of physics terribly closely...

Skyler

@Adeptus well yea, but if the desire is to land in a group of people and attack it the bar is pretty easy to fulfill in most cases

did he want to stay in the air during his turn?

eimyr

10:05

Hi

Patta

hey hey

eimyr

10:51

What's up?

nitsua60

12:37

I agree with this: if my 30' speed represents the distance I have time to move in a 6-sec narrative slice, and my jump distance is 20' and the game says by rule I can sequence my movement and actions in any order (barring action-specified dependencies) and the rules contain no penalties for doing my actions midair...
Then why not run 20', jump, travel 10' in air, fire off a spell, then we narratively leave me... hanging! and find out where I land when the spotlight's come back 'round?

doppelgreener

@eimyr Woo! Well asked.

nitsua60

I agree with @Miniman a few lines down, though, that trying to parse out how long each/any of the component actions/moves within a turn takes is a route leading to madness. Might as well try and figure out a narrative truth undergirding HP =)

doppelgreener

@nitsua60 "more is good"

nitsua60

@doppelgreener I'm sure there's some build that violates that =)

Probably a melee warlock =\

doppelgreener

@nitsua60 a meelock?

nitsua60

12:46

@doppelgreener mehlock.

=)

doppelgreener

@nitsua60 encapsulates their response toward getting hit

eimyr

@doppelgreener Well edited.

Also, I seem to have gotten the Populist badger. Woot.

doppelgreener

@eimyr Congratulations!

Miniman

@nitsua60 There certainly were back in 3.5, and I'm pretty sure in 4e too.

eimyr

It's a bittersweet badge, if you outscore before another person gets accepted.

Miniman

12:52

@eimyr Congratulations on your popularity!

BESW

13:06

Bling out your game! We've made official TableTop coins with our friends @wilw & @GeekandSundry Art by @DanielSolis… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/849773827508674560

Tweeted by CampaignCoins on April 6, 2017 at 12:00 AM

eimyr

@BESW Hello! Hope you're doing alright.

BESW

@eimyr [sigh]

Most of my (much reduced) Stack energy these days is going into pretending that lit.se can be a thing I will continue to participate in for the foreseeable future.

eimyr

13:35

literature? Why couldn't it be a thing?

Adam

@eimyr It is a thing, it's just not a thing that @BESW feels like continuing to participate in.

BESW

lit.se is fraught with curation issues that are making me less inclined to feel like it's a place I want to be.

eimyr

oh

BESW

Well, "fraught" may be a little dramatic.

But "literature" is a loaded topic and lit.se is having trouble handling it dispassionately.

DForck42

mornin

Yuuki

14:00

@nitsua60 Side question: if you still have 5+ feet to fall as you jump through the air and we use the "hang in mid-air" ruling, is the remaining 5+ feet deducted from your next turn's movement budget?

DForck42

14:24

@Yuuki sure

Yuuki

And if this is 3.5e/Pathfinder, does that mean you can't full-attack because you've made a move action by landing?

DForck42

@Yuuki sure

Adam

15:12

This question really highlights the reason that I dislike the "If the designers intended something, they would have said so" argument. The designers are people too. They mess up and either mis-word things, or errors get through or what have you.

DForck42

@Adam yup

and language is finicky

Adam

I mean I understand that in many circumstances, it's all we have to go off of. But I can wish for a perfect world where such circumstances didn't come up

DForck42

@Adam true

nitsua60

@Yuuki I would. For me that hits the sweet spot of "just-enough physical reasoning applied to neither break suspension of disbelief nor end up clashing with the rules." Limiting my ability to long jump to 5' because I already ran 25' in this turn breaks suspension of disbelief for me, but so does "I took a 25' run and jumped 5' of my intended 15' last turn, but I've changed my mind and don't want to continue 10' through the air so I'll start my new turn walking in a different direction."

LegendaryDude

@Adam Yeah. Designers make mistakes all the time; we shouldn't hold them up on a pedestal and regard the rules as gospel.

99.999% of the time they are correct but you really can't say, "If they intended it they would have said so" because, well, maybe they forgot.

DForck42

15:23

@LegendaryDude I think that's a logical fallacy of some sort

nitsua60

@Adeptus "grid vs. theater of the mind has little impact on tactics" has not been my 5e experience.

@Yuuki I don't know anything about 3.x/PF. (Skipped from 2 --> 5)

Adam

@nitsua60 Agreed, from a certain point of view. When I played without a grid, positioning was hand-waved a lot more often. But it didn't feel like people were making substantially different choices compared to with a grid. When I played with flanking rules, the types of actions people were taking during combat changed drastically, and I think that is what they are trying to say.

There is a difference between grid vs no grid to be sure, but I think there is a larger and more impactful difference between flanking and no flanking.

doppelgreener

@@[email protected] testing

@@[email protected] test 2

LegendaryDude

@doppelgreener test ~~failed~~ passed

nitsua60

@doppelgreener pinged me

doppelgreener

15:29

@nitsua60 Thank you for your involuntary participation in this test, citizen. Please report back to Friend Computer for decontamination procedure.

0

Q: A user (super?)ping is showing up incorrectly in the chat star list

This message by Rand al'Thor is starred in Literature chat: In the sidebar it looks like this: I imagine that should say @E.Bob not @@[email protected]. Turns out I can ping people with that second format though! I got curious about the significance of that "1208"; turns ou...

nitsua60

@Adam Actually, I should be more precise (cc: @Adeptus); it's not the grid, per se, I'm focused on. Map-and-minis--even if it's just a three-second sketch on butcher-paper and torn paper chits for actors--has in my experience had a large impact on tactics vs. theater of the mind.

@doppelgreener That sounds... friendly =|

eimyr

@doppelgreener that green Mexican batman is the greatest thing ever.

doppelgreener

@nitsua60 Very!

@eimyr It's Space Ghost!

eimyr

also, folks, do you realise that...

200 Word RPG Challenge 2017 is up!

7

nitsua60

@doppelgreener I've got my mojo risin', there's a poodle in my strudel...

eimyr

15:32

(you know what to do)

@doppelgreener space what?

nitsua60

@eimyr Space Ghooooooo-oooooost!

(@BESW at your leisure would you pin the 200-word RPG link?)

eimyr

@nitsua60 I don't get that reference

nitsua60

@Adam I haven't tried flanking, so can't comment on which rule-choice has a bigger impact on tactics.

LegendaryDude

nitsua60

Space Ghost

Space Ghost is a fictional character created by Hanna-Barbera Productions and designed by Alex Toth for CBS in the 1960s. Space Ghost is credited with the popularity of superhero cartoons in the 1960s. In his original incarnation, he was a superhero who, with his teen sidekicks Jan, Jace, and Blip the monkey, fought supervillains in outer space. In the 1990s, Space Ghost was brought back as a host for his own fictional late-night talk show, Space Ghost Coast to Coast, on Cartoon Network and Adult Swim. In the 2000s, he was revamped as a serious superhero once again in a mini-series by DC Comics...

2

eimyr

15:34

Where's that from? And why is Batman wearing that silly costume?

LegendaryDude

It's not Batman

eimyr

Of course it is. Can't you see the poorly-thought-out-tan-my-mouth-only-please-mask?

nitsua60

"All you caped-and-cowled hooligans look the same!"

eimyr

I think this is Negative Batman, a dude who dresses in white, fights crime by day after a traumatic event when his parents killed a dude in front of an opera house...

3

Adam

@nitsua60 and I only played in two short non-map based games :p I just felt like flanking made the game a different game, but not playing on a grid just made it the same game with a few details occasionally either hand-waved away or purposefully left open to interpretation

Yuuki

15:38

I don't think regular Batman's parents were killed in front of an opera house, but that's quibbling.

Adam

That's why he's negative batman :p

Yuuki

Not to be confused with Surreal Batman who witnessed an opera house killing a random dude in front of his parents.

LegendaryDude

@Adam My experience with playing on a grid tells me that players tend to limit themselves tactically to what they can see on the grid

Without a grid, they get a lot more creative

DForck42

@LegendaryDude my only issue is that places tend to not get enough detail

or, dm's that get hamfisted when you try creative things

eimyr

@Yuuki Surreal Batman dresses up as a baseball bat and has a butler, who's perfectly ordinary.

LegendaryDude

15:42

@DForck42 We play a kind of assumption of details game. If you're in a kitchen, you can safely assume normal things that would be in a kitchen are there.

@DForck42 I was curious so I went looking. It could be the informal Historian's fallacy. Because we have hindsight working in our favor it seems obvious that they should have spotted the discrepancy, but the designers didn't say anything about the issue because it didn't occur to them at the time. We presume, based on our perspective, that the decision to omit the explanation was intentional.

But it's a little more subtle than that I think and probably could fit into one or more informal fallacies. In any case, it's certainly a fallacious statement.

DForck42

16:01

@LegendaryDude possible

doppelgreener

@eimyr Don't you mean his parents resurrected a dude to undeath in front of an opera house?

eimyr

@doppelgreener that would be Opposite Batman

DForck42

tangential batman: two parents are murdered in front of an opera house, a boy in a different neighborhood becomes batman

2

eimyr

batman by proxy: a guy hired by an opera-goer killed batman's nanny, causing batman to have Alfred fight crime.

Anne Aunyme

homeopathic batman: some guy more or less related to persons who may have been murdered in front of an opera house. He fight crime with crime.

doppelgreener

16:15

these are making me laff

eimyr

@AnneAunyme homeopathic batman fights crime not significantly better than Placebo Man.

Anne Aunyme

@eimyr I want to see this guy in a RPG

If he solves the scenario, it means it was pretty damn railroaded

DForck42

@AnneAunyme that or lucky

Yuuki

Batman: guy who witnessed his parents being murdered in an opera house alleyway, seeks justice by dressing up as a stick of wood.

DForck42

@Yuuki oh my god...

LegendaryDude

16:21

@eimyr I only recently learned of this use of the word "homeopathic." A lot of people here use homeopathic to refer to natural remedies for some reason, I don't know why the misnomer stuck. Maybe because natural remedies have the same reputation for being unproven? Except homeopathic is proven to not actually work. I don't know. I just remember someone getting angry with me when I referred to St John's Wort as a homeopathic remedy.

Yuuki

Bat, man: it's like a flying squirrel, dude. But like... not. Like a bird, but totally not a bird dude. Duuuuuuuuuuude...

DForck42

@LegendaryDude yeah, language is weird

eimyr

also, Placebo Man: shows up in the middle of a mugging, says "Stop it!" and leaves.

DForck42

my understanding of homeopathic is that it's not a drug that's been designed, but rather something that can be found in nature. ie, using aloe vera for sunburn is homeopathic,

LegendaryDude

@DForck42 That's the usage as I understood it, but that's not what homeopathic actually is

DForck42

16:23

@eimyr no no no, Placebo Man: doesnt' have to stop crime because criminals know he's out there, so they stop themselves

Yuuki

No, homeopathy centers around the concept of "dilution". Basically, diluting medicine makes it more potent.

DForck42

@LegendaryDude apparently: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy

LegendaryDude

Homeopathic means you expose yourself to a bad thing to cure the symptoms created by exposure to the bad thing. It's completely bad science.

eimyr

homeopathic: a poison that causes the same symptoms as the disease, diluted to the point there is no poison left in the solution, used to treat the disease,

LegendaryDude

It'd be like getting mercury poisoning, then treating it with very low doses of mercury

eimyr

16:25

@DForck42 No no noe, Placebo Man stops crime by showing up, making it seem he actually does something, but doesn't actually do anything. Some criminals stop nevertheless.

DForck42

@eimyr lol

GreySage

@LegendaryDude Actually its treating it with water that, at one point, was in contact with mercury.

@eimyr Control Man: Doesn't fight crime at all

LegendaryDude

@GreySage Ah, well, either way it's bad science. :D

Yuuki

I worry that homeopathy has played a part in the anti-vaxx movement.

GreySage

@Yuuki There are so many fringe, anti-medicine groups out there. They are all tangentially related

Yuuki

16:34

@GreySage The thing is, if you don't know the science behind it, vaccination does sound at least slightly similar to homeopathy.

eimyr

@Yuuki except it works

Yuuki

You're taking a dead/dying/weak virus and injecting it into someone to make them resistant. I know it works and I know why it works. But to someone who doesn't know the mechanisms, it kinda sounds like homeopathy.

Which can go one of two ways. Either you think homeopathy works because vaccinations work. Or you think vaccinations don't work because homeopathy doesn't work.

GreySage

@eimyr This is the key difference between medical science, and non-scientific medicine. Medical science tests stuff to see if it works or not. Other things don't

LegendaryDude

@Yuuki Well, like I said, a lot of people refer to natural/unproven remedies as homeopathy in my region. My guess is a lot of people don't know what "real" homeopathy is.

GreySage

@Yuuki Ironically a lot of people think homeopathy works and vaccinations don't

DForck42

16:36

@GreySage *stupidly

Yuuki

This 5e character sheet looks fancy, but I think it sacrifices usability in favor of aesthetics.

LegendaryDude

@Yuuki That sheet looks fancy. But it's completely useless.

Wait, that's what you just said..

It looks like another take on the second alternative sheet made by WotC

It has a similar layout

diego

@GreySage That is why one of my favorite things a doctor has said on this subject boils down to this. We should look at it as a divide between Eastern and Western medicine, or natural and traditional remedies, but as things that have been proven to work and those that haven't.

Yuuki

The wheel that categorizes different things based on stats seems nice in theory, but having text at a slant is a big no-no in my opinion as far as UI/UX goes.

LegendaryDude

@diego Yeah. Chinese medicine has been successfully treating many minor ailments for years but gets frowned upon by Western doctors because it's not clinical in nature.

nitsua60

16:42

@GreySage [citation needed] As in, the medical research field isn't exactly a paragon of scientific rigor.

Yuuki

I'd say that the government needs to fund duplication studies because nobody wants to do them (re: there's no profit in it), but people hate government spending so...

nitsua60

(citation: amazon.com/Rigor-Mortis-Science-Worthless-Billions/dp/…)

LegendaryDude

@nitsua60 Scientific rigor is at odds with ethics in some cases, and blatantly violates the Hippocratic oath in others.

nitsua60

@LegendaryDude Yeah, but those aren't the cases that concern. We can understand that live-subject trials are thorny. But presenting the results of a three-person case-study as "settled science" or publishing only positive results (and leading to the sort of field-wide bias that @Yukki's suggestion would ferret out) are pervasive and harmful and preventable.

But it's a tragedy of the commons: all wold be better off if all researchers followed standard X, but each researcher is individually better off acting otherwise.

LegendaryDude

@nitsua60 Oh, absolutely. Ethics aside (har-har), there are loads of problems with medical science.

DForck42

16:47

@LegendaryDude lol at the spells known section

LegendaryDude

@nitsua60 Not only do you have incomplete studies, too-small samples and omission of negative results but you also have pharmaceuticals who pay to fast-track their drugs for profits rather than for real societal benefit.

@DForck42 Right? Clearly the creator has never played a spellcaster.

nitsua60

(The real tragedy of the tragedy of the commons, of course, being that it's a solved problem.)

DForck42

@LegendaryDude mmhmm

LegendaryDude

@nitsua60 Well that's pretty impressive. Why then are all our commons still so tragedy-stricken? :P

DForck42

@nitsua60 the best part is that the title in the image is different from the title in amazon

nitsua60

16:51

@LegendaryDude Turns out that a solution that depends basically on people communicating openly and honestly is... difficult to implement =\

Tragic.

DForck42

@LegendaryDude as far as I am aware there's no legal way to "fast track" a drug. only way is corruption

LegendaryDude

> only way is corruption

Therein lies the rub.

DForck42

cause when the FDA comes and does an audit, and finds out the real truth... there can be some harsh penalties, some resulting in company bankruptcy: source - worked at a contract research lab (in it)

nitsua60

@LegendaryDude They don't actually have a place where one notes their class(es). Total level, yes. Class features, yes. Class? No.

DForck42

@nitsua60 noticed that as well, but the spell list was more important to me

GreySage

16:54

@DForck42 Worse is when the FDA comes, finds misconduct, and then can't do anything about it

nitsua60

@DForck42 Curious how big the lab was? I ask only because my cynicism is perking up and thinking "okay, Merck pushes, does some shady stuff, little lab is sacrificed to the FDA, Merck moves on to next contract-lab." (Also, feel free to sub in GSK, Pfizer, &c.)

(Also, next contract-lab is a corporation that bought all the assets of sacrificial lab and re-hired 90% of its workforce. Ata lower wage, of course. Puts old CEO in charge of "new" lab.)
Is that the sort of thing that really happens, or am I just being overly-dramatic?

DForck42

@nitsua60 eag.com

since I've left (2 years ago) they were bought by a larger company, rebranded, and had a lot of their upper management replaced

but when I was there last they had about 400 employees

but, basically, unless the whole chain, from the lab to qa to pm, was on the payroll it'd be rather hard to get fake results through

contract labs take a lot of precaution to PREVENT the possibility of corruption

DForck42

18:17

my copy of storm king's thunder is finally shipping from amazon

nitsua60

@DForck42 I guess I don't worry about blatant falsification--I feel like that's a black swan. It's "we saw a result and there's no theory for why it might work but it's statistically significant so let's publish" and "didn't get the answer we expect? Test it again and again, and publish the third (properly-conducted) study which shows a result we like but not the first two" that I worry about.

Basically, all the variations on this:

'So, uh, we did the green study again and got no link. It was probably a--' 'RESEARCH CONFLICTED ON GREEN JELLY BEAN/ACNE LINK; MORE STUDY RECOMMENDED!'

That's the sort of thing that scares me, because it doesn't require the assumption of a single bad actor in the system.

Yuuki

@nitsua60 Or collect a bunch of data and include/exclude different parts until you get a statistically significant result.

nitsua60

Yeah. Whaddathey call that, sample-searching?

LegendaryDude

@nitsua60 This is exactly the reason why it's so hard to know which health studies are legitimate and which are fear mongering. Is my habit of eating mostly red meat really going to cause me health issues in the future, or are the studies flawed?

@nitsua60 A more generic term would be cherry picking.

Adam

anybody else see "docsHero.RenderPartial(Html); storyHero.RenderPartial(Html);" on the front page of the main site?

DForck42

18:24

@nitsua60 well, medical research and pharmaceutical research probably aren't upheld to the same standards. research done for the sake of research is usually university funded, or privately funded. pharmaceutical research is done with the intent to provde that the drug/whatever in question is feesible to go to the public. pharmaceutical research is a multi-year process with a lot of checks in it

LegendaryDude

@Adam yes

DForck42

most research that gets publish is usually out to generate good pr for people. real research, like what my lab did, had severe consequences and a lot of processes tied to it

nitsua60

@LegendaryDude Try this book. I had a lunch with the author and found him to be a pretty sincere and forthcoming person. He really sees a need to educate the public on being critical thinkers about the "studies" they're presented.

@DForck42 I dunno... I've been in the research end of university research, and the incentives just aren't there to run verification studies, pre-publish experimental design, publish null results, &c. It really does rely on the ethos of the field, which is subject to erosion. The financial pressure to erode standards is pretty-minimal in nuclear physics, but I imagine in a high-stakes and high-money field like medicine, it's pretty tough to negotiate.

diego

@nitsua60 I will second Dr. Carroll being very sincere from what I've seen. He has a YouTube channel I like (HealthCare Triage).

LegendaryDude

@nitsua60 The book description has a perfect example: the egg-cholesterol thing. Doctors and nutritionists have been saying for years that eating foods high in cholesterol is bad for you and will raise your cholesterol, but as it turns out cholesterol levels are largely genetic so someone with "good" genes can eat all the eggs they want and never have to worry about their cholesterol levels.

On the other hand, my mom rarely eats more than a salad and she has awful cholesterol levels.

diego

18:36

@LegendaryDude From what Dr. Carroll has said on his YouTube channel there are a lot of issues with nutrition and dietary related studies. One of the main ones being a study comes out that says 'X is good for Y people under Z conditions', and then the media (and some professionals that really should know better) see it and goes 'Everyone should do X' when there is no proof of that will help everyone

LegendaryDude

@diego I have a friend who is convinced diet soda causes cancer because of so-called "studies" and "reports" and gives me a hard time whenever I have a Diet Pepsi (which is like, maybe once a month).

Same friend stopped eating all beef outright when reports of "pink slime" were a big deal in the news. "I don't eat beef, it has pink slime in it."

The fresh ground beef you get from the grocery store was literally a steak minutes or hours before you picked it up off the shelf. It does not contain pink slime.

Yuuki

@LegendaryDude Unless you live in Europe. In which case that ground beef was literally a horse minutes or hours before you picked it up.

:P

eimyr

@LegendaryDude it depends whether you go to the local butcher's or to walmart. I'm sure that in at least one of these places it's a possibility

LegendaryDude

@eimyr Our local grocery chains source their meats from regional farmers. I'd never buy "fresh" meats from Walmart, because that sound like a terrible idea.

eimyr

@LegendaryDude That's the thing - in Europe there is a lot more regulations and ways to make sure groceries meet the quality standards. And then horsemeat scandal is considered a blunder of the decade.

LegendaryDude

18:47

I guess my point is that he takes every health scare report like its gospel and like it applies to everyone and everything, the pink slime thing being one such example

eimyr

yeah

LegendaryDude

Sure, some ground beef might contain pink slime but it's easily avoidable and not nearly the problem you think it is.

eimyr

also, pink slime's effect on health might be exaggerated

Joshua Aslan Smith

afternoon everyone

eimyr

like the time Nutella was determined to be carcinogenic due to the use of some trans fat oil or something

yeah, that's technically correct, but you need to eat a bucket of it per week to see any effect

@JoshuaAslanSmith Yawp, JAS!

ACuriousMind

18:50

A bucket of Nutella is...not unrealistic :P

LegendaryDude

@eimyr Yeah, just like microwaved popcorn can cause popcorn lung and kill you

(but only if you eat a bag of microwave popcorn or more per day)

eimyr

whenever someone says anything about food and popularly broadcast health concerns, I like to remind that a banana is likely to be the most radioactive thing in your house you could eat, including the TV

LegendaryDude

@eimyr Cat litter, too

I mean, you eat that, right? hides bowl of cat litter

eimyr

I almost bathe in it

Adam

@LegendaryDude Please, let it be fresh out of the bag and not used...

Joshua Aslan Smith

18:53

@eimyr miss me? heh

LegendaryDude

@Adam Does Fresh Step out of the bag count? :D

Jk, I don't eat cat litter. But my dog does, and according to her its awesome.

eimyr

I use cat litter for my bunnies. Whoever looked at Nesquick and said "this shit needs a mascot rabbit" was a sick monster

GreySage

@eimyr When we were doing radiation in my 1st year physics class, our prof was talking about cellphone radiation and made the joke, "Cellphones are not harmful. In fact there is only one kind of phone that can emit harmful radiation. Anyone know what it is?" Class murmurs. "A Banana-phone!" Groaning.

eimyr

@GreySage LOL

LegendaryDude

obligatory