TRPG General Chat

Adeptus

00:08

@Karelzarath The "wandering damage table" was printed in an April edition of Dragon

Karelzarath

I wouldn't be surprised. I got it from one of my DMs many years ago.

Adeptus

Table is reproduced at Darths and Droids, among other places

> First there was the wandering monster. They serve well when applied in hordes, but why not cut out the middleman and just deal out damage to the characters directly? It makes for a smoother, faster-paced game, and if you want to kill off characters quickly, it can only be beaten by divine intervention by Cthulhoid godlings.

Karelzarath

"Roll every die within 30 feet for damage." That's the one I remember.

d20

Dice Service

16

Karelzarath

2d10

Dice Service

00:18

8

5

Karelzarath

Woo! I survived.

Shalvenay

@Adeptus meh. random encounters are better because you can make them not so one-note ;)

hey there @JackStout

Karelzarath

@Shalvenay One note is all you need when it's the brown note.

Jack Stout

@Shalvenay howdy howdy

Miniman

@Karelzarath I didn't.

Shalvenay

00:22

@Karelzarath and...yeah. :P I have not-so-fond memories of running an entire constellation in 0.0 space in EVE out of the primary ammo type I needed at the time

what's up?

Karelzarath

@Shalvenay O.O How in the world did you manage that? Someone really dropped the ball if they weren't covering that market hole.

I built T2 ammo and drones for the Faction Warfare zones. War profiteering FTW.

Shalvenay

@Karelzarath their logistics pipelines were not tuned for a Matari pilot :P

Karelzarath

@Shalvenay Ah, I suppose that makes sense.

Shalvenay

(i.e. they were poor at stocking things like autocannon shells, instead giving that space to missiles because apparently that's all you need. :P)

what was worse is that I couldn't manufacture things (didn't have the permissions to do so) so even with a blueprint and my own minerals, I couldn't fix the problem for myself, never mind plug the hole for others

doppelgreener

00:48

> Spineless Tome of Sneak Attack. Boost any one Sneaky attack roll by +2. Crumbles after you use it 3 times.

> Crumbled Dust of a Tome of Sneak Attack. It feels comforting to keep it around. Boost any one Sneaky roll where the dust will help by +2, but then it's used up.

Shalvenay

01:26

hey there @JuneShores

JuneShores

Hey hi.

Shalvenay

how're things going?

JuneShores

Going alright. Prepping for a big move.

Miniman

01:38

@JuneShores That's a familiar feeling atm.

nitsua60

02:43

@SevenSidedDie I go with this generator. It's not amazing, but it's not horrible and it can be a nice way to make places seem more place-like, IMO. E.g. in one of my games all of the long-time locals of the region have Frisian names. I pulled about 40 first names but only ten last names, so it's one of these places where families have been around a long time and have deep roots.

Shalvenay

hey there @nitsua60

nitsua60

@Karelzarath @NautArch If @eimyr can't lay their ~~tentacles~~ hands on "Little Adventures" I'd be glad to take an hour to write it up the way I've been playing, with due credit given to the creator. (Something like "Samford III's Little Adventures, as playtested and remembered by a dude dressed as a sheep....")

@Shalvenay Hiya. How's life?

Shalvenay

02:59

OK here. been working up some more campaign notes. also chomping at the bit for this upcoming Saturday night (on that note, VI seems a trifle confused re: setting matters)

do need a bit of setting design help for those campaign notes though :/

trying to figure out how a magic deity could have a tacitly tolerated/not-hunted-down-and-burned-to-the-ground witch-hunting cult when the societal norm is that witchcraft is OK

Miniman

@Shalvenay There are plenty of religious groups in modern society that are considered extreme by the majority of people who follow that religion but are nevertheless tolerated.

I don't think the problem here is the religious one, but "there's a group of people who go around killing people, and aren't being punished for it".

My understanding of your setting is that it's a fairly lawful society, so why doesn't law enforcement come after them?

Shalvenay

whack-a-mole type problems, and the "head" if you will of the group is deeply entrenched/hard to dislodge

(ofc, palm grease helps ;)

Miniman

@Shalvenay Ah, so they are persecuted, just not successfully?

Shalvenay

@Miniman indeed

when I said "tacitly tolerated" I meant by the mainstream followers, sorry :)

Miniman

@Shalvenay Sounds like you've got this figured out, then XD

nitsua60

03:10

Today in AL: came across a fountain in a garden and a superstitious fighter tossed in a copper piece. Turns out it was simply a water-filled depression on the back of a dragon-turtle which we have now annoyed.
I think my GM is tired of us running rough-shod over his encounters =)

Shalvenay

@Miniman well, that figures out the how at least -- to move onto actually identifying a suitable deity though...

(I was thinking Mystra even, but I suspect that the Mystrans (or Mystra themself) would go after a heretic witch-hunting cult in their own ranks much more aggressively than I think would be apropos for the setting)

Miniman

@nitsua60 That's a remarkably sensitive dragon turtle, noticing a 1/3 oz penny being dropped into a puddle on its shell.

nitsua60

@Miniman I think it's got a copper allergy.

Miniman

Also, that being the case, how did it not notice you guys walking on it?

nitsua60

Leather boots. +10 stealth mod =)

Shalvenay

03:13

@nitsua60 Boots of Elvenkind you mean? ;)

Miniman

@Shalvenay Boccob (the Uncaring), God of Magic, perhaps?

nitsua60

@Shalvenay Sorry, no. Just meant that I both wear leather boots and have a 20 passive stealth.

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 aww

@Miniman I think that could work

nitsua60

@LegendaryDude apropos of everything, tonight in AL my GM had to make a DEX save for 16 opponents in a fireball's radius. Who saved him fourteen rolls? This guy =D

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 :D

Miniman

03:17

@nitsua60 Lucky that had come up just recently!

The Oracle

05:33

1

Q: When should I NOT protect questions?

So, the protection requirement has always seemed extremely low to me. You can't post an answer on a protected question unless you have at least 10 rep, which is one upvote. My default behavior, now that I can protect things, would probably just be to preemptively protect all the things all the ...

Baskakov_Dmitriy

08:20

@Anaphory Any end, I am looking for online RP

@SevenSidedDie Thanks, will try this.

@Karelzarath Thanks, will try it

The Oracle

11:08

0

Q: What to do when an edit guesses a system tag rather than waiting for the querent to clarify?

When the question does not specify a system, but an educated guess can be made, other users often edit the tags themselves without waiting for the querent to confirm the system they are interested in. Is this appropriate? If not then is it OK to roll-back the edit and comment? At what point is ...

discussion tags questions editing

Patta

11:35

@nitsua60 I always thought only investigation and perception had passive scores?

Miniman

@Patta Technically, every skill does.

It's just that investigation and perception are the ones that most commonly come into play.

Patta

That is what I thought too, until I had exactly that conversation with my GM and we looked at the books.

I don't exactly remember what we found, but since then only these two exist in our games

And we had a rules basis we found for that... Which does not mean that it is actually true, but it is what we read into it :D

Szega

PHB 175 talks about passive checks and does not mention any restriction

Patta

12:03

Yea, I just talked about that with my gm. He found that after our talk about it, but never told me. :D

Aaron

Morning

LegendaryDude

12:24

Only certain skills have "passive" uses though

I don't think you could make use a of a passive athletics score

You're either rolling your athletics or you're not

Patta

Well, I don't like passive checks anyway, so...

Aaron

I think the only passive skill I use is perception.

Patta

Yea, which is the one I hate the most

:D

Aaron

12:45

Why? It's the one that makes the most sense

It's not like people's eyes and ears shut just because they are not actively looking around.

The way I do it is they get a passive roll of 5

nitsua60

@LegendaryDude I once rolled out of top-bunk while sleeping and landed on my feet, waking up midair. I think there was passive athletics involved there =)

LegendaryDude

@Aaron In 5e, passive rolls are part of the rules. 10 + your ability mod + proficiency

Patta

well, no, it isn't. But I don't need a mechanical thing for that, at all. I just don't like the idea of it even beeing there and resulting in no longer needing active rolls sometimes

Adam

@LegendaryDude Proficiency (if you are proficient)

Aaron

@LegendaryDude Yes but players can take 10 so why would the passive roll equal something they should actively use? At least in Pathfinder.

LegendaryDude

12:49

@Adam Right, that's a given

Patta

(disclaimer: All campaigns I played in had only characters with passive scores of 15+)

LegendaryDude

@Aaron Can't take 10 in 5e

nitsua60

@Patta in 5e?

Patta

currently we have something like 15 (me), 18, 25

LegendaryDude

The bard gets a special take 10 class feature at some point I think

Aaron

12:49

@Patta It avoids metagaming for one.

Patta

@nitsua60 yes

@Aaron for me and my group, it does the exact opposite.

nitsua60

how do you have so many +5 in non-proficient skills?

Patta

All of us are proficient. Rogue has Expertise + Feat

Aaron

That's generally why I use it at least. Asking them to roll perception makes them annoyed and unhappy knowing they missed something. I tend to roll perception for my players as well to avoid metaing

Patta

We are Level 10 though

LegendaryDude

12:50

@Patta Its situational. The way we've played it is, if it's something out in the open like a trap door in the middle of an otherwise bare floor, you would use your passive score

If that same trap door were instead beneath a rug it'd be an active check

Unless you move the rug, in which case it might turn to a passive check, or maybe you just notice it right away because you were smart enough to look under the rug

Point is, they're just tools the DM can choose to use to make a situation a bit more streamlined

Patta

See, exactly my problem @LegendaryDude - Why would that even be a passive check and not something you see automatically?

LegendaryDude

@Adam Yep, see my edit :)

Aaron

You walk into the cave. Roll perception... Rolls a 1 You don't see the gaudy rug covering the trapdoor

Adam

@Patta In the 5e DMG, I believe it suggests that the players automatically find any trap/secret if it ever becomes obvious.

LegendaryDude

@Adam I think you're right, and the published adventures usually follow this line of reasoning too

Usually "If the PCs look at X, they find the thing," rather than "If the PCs pass a perception check of DC 16 they find the thing."

Traps are usually the exception

Adam

12:57

It can be really useful for getting your players to be more specific. Saying "I check the room" gets them a roll. If they specifically say "I look in this drawer and under the rug" They might just find a hidden thing for free

LegendaryDude

@Adam Yes! And I've found that it's actually effective in doing so.

eimyr

@Adam Ever heard of GUMSHOE?

Adam

@LegendaryDude I found a +1 Ring of Protection in a flower pot for just that reason ;)

LegendaryDude

We used to play Pathfinder published adventures and in most cases it's "If they roll a perception check DC 15 they find the thing in the drawer," even if they were already looking in the drawer

Adam

@eimyr I see the name floating around the site sometimes, but I'm not familiar with it myself though

LegendaryDude

12:58

And so my players got used to "I search the room" roll dice "did I find anything?"

nitsua60

@Patta In all skills? Waht?

eimyr

@Adam It's an investigation system, where if you a) have a skill b) use that skill on an appropriate thing (e.g. I SEARCH the CUPBOARD) you find a clue automatically.

LegendaryDude

Now I get to prompt them, "Okay, where are you looking? In the drawer? Okay, in the drawer you find the golden feather of Lord Chanticleer the Alarmist."

nitsua60

@LegendaryDude @Adam @Aaron @Patta DMG p.237 is such a must- ~~read~~ memorize that I don't even look it up anymore when I'm quoting it in answers.

2

Aaron

@nitsua60 Uhh. I don't actually own any of the books so... ^^'

LegendaryDude

13:01

@nitsua60 Starred for later reference, I'll have to go back and read it again (and poke my current DM and ask him to read it to)

nitsua60

@Patta oh, are you just talking about perception scores that high? I thought you were saying that all passive scores were 15 or higher, making me wonder how every skill modifier was +5. (And, dear gods, the only thing I could think of was a party of bards, buffing and polishing each other all the way through the nine hells.)

@LegendaryDude you can poke at these if it helps: rpg.stackexchange.com/search?q=DMG+p.237+user%3A23970

Patta

@nitsua60 That is a cool idea for a party, but no, I was only talking about perception :D

nitsua60

The last ten minutes makes a lot more sense now. =)

Patta

@nitsua60 is that the part about "repeating skill checks" and such?

nitsua60

@LegendaryDude "no, you were too busy playing with your dice. What's your background? Sage? You don't even have proficiency in a gaming set! You lose one of your dice in a crack between flagstones."

@Patta More importantly, it's the bit about whether/when to even call for a check in the first place.

(Repeating is actually on p.239, IIRC.)

Adam

13:06

@nitsua60 I've been trying to steer my DM toward more meaningful checks, based on the advice on that page

nitsua60

@Adam Angry's 5 simple rules... is a good read, too.

@doppelgreener on your good meta answer, I might add that a decent explanatory note in the edit summary is also good. I know I'm in the bad habit of not leaving much info in those, but I do make sure any time I'm rolling back to explain, and if I'm system-tagging to specify how I know. Because those persist vs. comments, and have educational value, too.

DForck42

mornin

Adam

Good morning

NautArch

@morning everyone!

nitsua60

morning!

NautArch

13:17

i don't think my table has ever used passive perception. but we also use a proficiency die...

nitsua60

tell me more...

Do you start at d4 then bump its size at levels 5, 9, 13, 17?

Adam

@nitsua60 "My rules are just here so we can ignore your pathetic attempt at meaningless challenges." Advice to game by

DForck42

@nitsua60 misinterpreted that as increasing the die size TO 5, 9, 13, and 17, lol

NautArch

@nitsua60 exactly, see DMG pp 263

nitsua60

@DForck42 The 9 sticks in my craw. I prefer only prime-sided dice.

DForck42

13:23

@nitsua60 lol

Anaphory

@Baskakov_Dmitriy I read that, I was just curious which end you might be moving to.

Patta

@nitsua60 Well, I don't gm 5e (and would not have fun doing that), but it might be an interesting read anyway, so... thanks

eimyr

@Patta I wouldn't like to GM any D&D clone apart from 5e.

doppelgreener

@nitsua60 you can't leave edit summaries for rolling back! could i suggest you write what's on your mind in a comment? (meta being different, that ought to be ok.)

Patta

@eimyr I tried dming pathfinder once, but... nah. And while I like 5e the most of all DnD-clones I know of, I still would never gm it

But, saying that, I enjoy dming games like TDE or Splittermond, so...

LegendaryDude

13:27

@Patta TDE seems so complicated, though

eimyr

@PAtta what do you GM then?

oh

nitsua60

@doppelgreener oh, gosh, that's right. ANd I just did this a few days ago....

LegendaryDude

@nitsua60 That's one of my favorite Angry articles. Right up there with the one about making combat meaningful.

nitsua60

@LegendaryDude which one? I feel like a quarter of the articles are about making combat meaningful =)

LegendaryDude

@nitsua60 Umm... the one that talks about ending combat if the conflict is gone. He uses the example of spiders in a cave.

Why are the spiders there, and why are they fighting the PCs?

nitsua60

13:32

@LegendaryDude Right. "OBJECTIVES" is the first word on the card I keep in front of myself at all times.

LegendaryDude

This one, I think. Part of a three-part series on building/running combat.

Patta

@LegendaryDude Yes! Exactly. That's why I love it.

I don't like having to be so concerned with balance, which is why I don't like to gm Pathfinder/DnD

@eimyr also, Fantasy Flight Star Wars Games. And if I had people to play it with, Dungeon World and Savage Worlds :D

eimyr

@Patta I like your choices there.

Patta

And Splittermond is kind of between DnD and TDE, complexity wise

Only available in german, though :D

Oh, I also forgot Shadowrun 5

Aaron

imgur.com/gallery/bnENj

wtf that looks like something out of an alien movie

NautArch

13:42

@Aaron entrance to Stranger Things shadowfell?

Adam

@Aaron And now I'm creeped out. Thanks man... ;)

nitsua60

@Aaron Quote of the day: "Even the water tries to kill you in Australia." (cc: @Miniman @Adeptus)

ACuriousMind

@Patta Ugh, I've kinda burned out on TDE's complexity. It has so much, but so much is not...really interesting in the course of the average game.

Patta

@ACuriousMind The thing I like is that you don't need everything. You can just ignore many things, if you want, and don't need to even use them.

And if you ever need them: Haha! Here they are.

Aaron

Some of these are really cool imgur.com/gallery/DiLo0

LegendaryDude

13:55

@ACuriousMind Sounds like Shadowrun

ACuriousMind

@Patta Mh, about half of the time I opt to ignore those obscure rules because they don't make any narrative sense in the current situation

And even if you use them, I mostly don't feel they add anything except saving the GM from having to wing it

@LegendaryDude I feel Shadowrun's systems interlock better than TDE's

In an average interesting run, I will have real-world combat, matrix shenanigans, magic and vehicles/drones/some other tech

LegendaryDude

@ACuriousMind Oh that I'm not complaining about. I think that aspect is really cool.

ACuriousMind

And that's what the rules cover. They're complex, but they actually come up frequently, at least in my experience

LegendaryDude

What I am referring to are the extremely specific tests.

Like for treading water.

Why do I need a separate test to tread water? Why can't I just make a swim test?

Patta

@ACuriousMind what kind of rules are you referring too, then? Any examples?

DForck42

14:00

so, my dm rustled my jimmies a bit tuesday

I finally had a good opportunity to cast polymorph on one of my party members, and stated that at some point I want to turn someone into a t-rex

LegendaryDude

oh no, I can see where this is going. :|

DForck42

he blurts in saying that "you have to know what it is to turn someone into ti" no, you don't, otherwise the spell would say it. well, turns out he didnt' really care about that part, but rather the whole dinosaur thing

so, he doesn't like dinosaurs being a thing (we're playing Princes of the Apocalypse btw, so we're in Forgotten Realms), but living rock monsters are ok (we fought a roper)

Yuuki

@LegendaryDude So he talks about how solo monsters just aren't as cool mechanics-wise as multiple monsters (action economy, picking and choosing targets, etc.). But at the same time, there's something innately awesome about fighting one big solo monster (dragons, leviathan-like monsters, etc.) Could some kind of parts system be a way around this or is that just like patching a sinking ship?

ACuriousMind

@Patta All the skills that exist but are rarely used (how often do you have players roll for astronomy, for instance?). All those elaborate rules for magic modifications and rituals that require a game where the player mage can just sit around for half a year doing nothing but staying their laboratory (which they also have to have). Completely unrealistic absurd rules for firing siege weapons.

All those liturgies that a player will never use

LegendaryDude

@DForck42 This is why I think every GM should try to run Dungeon World at least once. And, barring that, at least read the rules.

"Be a fan of the characters" is such an important aspect of GMing any game.

6

ACuriousMind

14:03

@LegendaryDude Ah, yeah, that's completely superfluous

LegendaryDude

But I've only ever seen it emphasized in PbtA games, sadly.

DForck42

@LegendaryDude yeah, I'm almost ot the point where I'm going to say "ok, I'm tired of the nit-pickiness and random "I don't like blah", either write down what you don't want or STFU"

nitsua60

@Yuuki I think Angry is giving lair and legendary actions short shrift there.

NautArch

@DForck42 That type of ruling isn't necessarily 'wrong', but it is a houserule that should have been discussed

nitsua60

(I.e. I think they do a lot more to "balance" the monster's and PCs' screen-time than Angry gives them credit for.)

DForck42

14:04

@NautArch exactly

NautArch

the druid wildshape DOES have language requiring that, but polymorph doesn't.

LegendaryDude

@nitsua60 To be fair I don't think Angry was as into 5e when those articles were written.

DForck42

we also do healing differently, which is fine

NautArch

i could see ruling it to be the same, but you shouldn't do it on the fly

nitsua60

@LegendaryDude Yeah--the MM wasn't out yet, even.

DForck42

14:05

but there's a lot of little things that we do differently, but it's also said at the table

doppelgreener

@nitsua60 darnit nitsua, get your sheep together

DForck42

like he's got this weird "cornered" rule

NautArch

@DForck42 tell me more...

nitsua60

@doppelgreener I guess I'm having a baa-aa-ad morning.

LegendaryDude

@NautArch Yes, like my DM making one save for an entire group of monsters affected by my web spell last Saturday. :|

DForck42

14:06

you can literally walk through corners, etc

@NautArch basically, if you're in a corner and can't escape, then they have advantage

the attackers do, I mean

nitsua60

@LegendaryDude Hmm... I wonder how that impacts the mathematics? =)

LegendaryDude

@nitsua60 Turns out it's the same average in the long run but in the short term (single trial) scenario it largely favors the DM. ;)

Miniman

@nitsua60 This, combined with the above comments about lair actions and legendary actions making solo boss monsters a big deal, basically sums up my session tonight :D

NautArch

@DForck42 Hmm, I could see that. Not a terrible rule. But I could also that being cancelled out by a raging barbarian. Cornered animal...

Yuuki

@LegendaryDude By that logic, one person should be able to make the saves for your entire party.

NautArch

14:08

Also, if you're cornered, you don't have to worry about someone sneaking up behind you. 1:1 I'd think no advantage, if you're int he corner against two...advantage.

LegendaryDude

@Yuuki Hasn't come up yet. I'm going to talk with him (he was my best man) before our next session. There's no animosity (as much I may make it seem like there is).

He had subsequent orcs who wandered into the web make saves; I considered pointing out that they had already failed their save but didn't want to complicate the matter.

Patta

@ACuriousMind ok, siege weapons are one thing, but on the point of having all those skills: Well, I actually love it. You ask about astronomy: Players roll it when the rules say they need to (which is kind of never, yes) or when one character is good at it and finds ways to actually use it. It allows for such interesting characters with intereseting skills/knowledge. Also, you have more than enough points to be good in things like astronomy, and still be good in more "important" skills, too.

nitsua60

@Yuuki Only if the whole party has the same statblock. (In LD's mainsite question they specify that the group was composed all of the same monster.)

Patta

@ACuriousMind and on the mages: Yes, but everyone else needs lots of downtime too. It's just part of the system.

nitsua60

@LegendaryDude (This... probably calls for a cup of coffee and a conversation later. But good call not to harp on it during the session.)

Patta

14:14

@LegendaryDude star that. Star that five thousand times. My DnD 5e char is a sage from the background, with a high history score and that background feature "If you seek knowledge, you always know where to find it"

And never in the campaign has it actually helped me

And it's not for the lack of trying :D

ACuriousMind

@Patta Yeah, I get that. As I said, I'm burnt out on it - it's not inherently bad, but I'm kinda done with it for now ;)

Patta

(on the off-chance he drops by in chat here: he is a good gm, but that's one area where he's lacking :P)

ACuriousMind

@LegendaryDude I haven't seen all that many games that give the GM enough advice to actually run a game to begin with

Patta

@ACuriousMind Yeah, I can understand that :D It helps that I just love TDE (it might actually be an unhealthy obsession :P)

LegendaryDude

@ACuriousMind I was referring specifically to the PbtA GM principle of "Be a fan of the characters." But yeah, in general, RPGs often don't emphasize the things you need to do as a GM to be successful. D&D is a notable exception with each edition having one or more books dedicated to the subject.

diego

14:18

@Patta I finally had my noble's background feature actually come in useful the other day. It made me very happy.

ACuriousMind

@LegendaryDude I know, I was saying it's no wonder you haven't seen that principle outside of PbtA because many games don't bother giving you principles at all

That's why, as you say, reading the PbtA rules is good even if you don't intend to ever run a game in the system

LegendaryDude

@ACuriousMind Ah, yes. Exactly.

ACuriousMind

(But how could you read those rules and not at least try it once? :P)

LegendaryDude

I bought the DW book for that very reason (and with the hopes that I could convince my players to try it out one day).

hah! My thoughts exactly.

eimyr

Welp - that is precisely why Apocalypse World is so highly regarded in the community.

LegendaryDude

14:21

But my players are mostly hesitant. They're of a mind that, "I need to read the rules to understand." Even when I try to explain that DW doesn't have rules for the players other than what's on your sheet, they insist.

NautArch

pbta?

LegendaryDude

@NautArch Powered by the Apocalypse

eimyr

Baker took all those good practices that good GMs "just knew" and put them on paper as game rules. RULES, not guidance. That AWE practically forces you to be a good GM - and a good player too - at the cost of narrowing the scope of the game in general

LegendaryDude

@NautArch Apocalypse World and Dungeon World are the two most well known using the PbtA system.

eimyr

@LegendaryDude AW is the original one though.

LegendaryDude

14:23

@eimyr Well, of course. They are powered by the Apocalypse after all.

SPavel

Unfortunately, a lot of GMs are GMs because of the thrill they get from absolute power

But those are not the good GMs

ACuriousMind

@LegendaryDude Well, if you find yourself trying to convince them longer than a few minutes and they don't believe you, maybe you should just let them read the rules - they're not that long, anyway. Maybe they'll believe you that they didn't need to read them after they've read them ;)

eimyr

I've heard it called "AWE" as in "Apocalypse World Engine"

NautArch

@SPavel that's a lot like my GM. He isn't a bad GM, but his personal philosophies often get in the way of his games and fun.

eimyr

It didn't catch just as well as PbtA though

NautArch

14:24

did a quick search for rules...but not quite sure what i'm actually looking for

LegendaryDude

@NautArch dungeonworldsrd.com It's probably not the best source but it's a source.

eimyr

@SPavel I disagree. I think a lot of GMs are also GM s because they take one for the team, as they would prefer to be players.

well, that might not be contradictory after all

SPavel

@eimyr I'm not sure that's a disagreement

eimyr

but I don't see power-hungry GMs as a huge problem in my experience

NautArch

@LegendaryDude grazie!

LegendaryDude

14:25

@NautArch Use this one instead, I think this one is official: book.dwgazetteer.com

SPavel

It depends on the people you know, I guess

Knew this one guy - he loved to DM

Barely knew the rules though

Was constantly frustrated because he was running a level 15+ game

As in, that's the level it started at

LegendaryDude

@SPavel Oof. That's not easy when you do know the rules well.

SPavel

Ahh, Earl Grey tea - the pinnacle of civilization

Adam

@SPavel youtube.com/watch?v=R2IJdfxWtPM

Patta

@LegendaryDude interesting. My players don't want DW because they don't like that the GM is tied to rules so strongly. Which should not even intereset them, but... well.... :D

SPavel

14:31

@Adam Actually, I prefer my tea merely warm

LegendaryDude

@Patta That is interesting. One of the best things about DW is the rules require that the player vs. GM mentality be non-existent. The game doesn't work without it; that should interest the players (though probably less if they're already playing with a DM who doesn't abuse their position).

Yuuki

@LegendaryDude You mean "the game doesn't work with it"?

Or that the rules require that player vs. GM mentality?

LegendaryDude

@Yuuki Erm, yes. Whoops.

No, I certainly mean without that mentality.

It should say "One of the best things about DW is the rules require that the player vs. GM mentality be non-existent. The game doesn't work without [that rule]." "It" being the rule, not the mentality.

Yuuki

Ah.

eimyr

@LegendaryDude @Patta I think I said it here before, but PbtA games either go great because all involved followed the rules to the letter or turn into a garbage fire because they didn't.

nitsua60

14:35

@Patta This is why I keep PCs' skills and background--and only those things--on my one-sheet character reference I make when I'm running 5e. I figure that every choice a player makes during chargen is an expression of "the things I'd like to do during this game." Most of those things, the player can decide to engage in them at any time. "I like flying into a murderous rage!" Well, you get to do that any time you want. But skills and background hooks--GM is the only one who can invoke those.

Patta

@nitsua60 exactly. You get me :)

nitsua60

@SPavel It's funny: I hear this, but I've never actually seen one of those GMs. I guess I'm on a thirty-year lucky streak? (I don't count early experiences with older brothers GMing--there's too much (a) inexperience and (b) brother-brother dynamic coloring those ones.)

Patta

@LegendaryDude Well, I don't :P That might be part of the reason. I can understand not wanting to gm it because beeing actually bound to RULES (especially if you are e.g. a 5e gm) might seem difficult, but not playing it because of that... Well... I don't get it, personally :D

nitsua60

@Patta Esp. since I'm such a stickler for "GM calls for checks, not players."

LegendaryDude

Yeah. That's another thing about DW; it really does require strict adherence to the rules. But what's nice is, if something comes up that you don't know how to handle and you backtrack to the rules, you can almost always figure out by adjusting perspective. I think that's a basic summary of most DW Q&A here: "How does X work?"

"If you remember principles A and B, we can make X work by doing Z."

nitsua60

14:37

If I'm going to be that way, I need to hold up the "GM calls for checks" end of the bargain.

@Shalvenay (Look back about 7 messages, when you get a moment.)

Patta

@nitsua60 Yes. And my gm tends to forget most of the skills my character is good at. At least he started to use persuade a bit more, but especially insight (and history, for that matter) are seldom used in this game...

SPavel

@nitsua60 Indeed, that's some luck! I think it happens mostly online, meatspace groups filter assholery somewhat

ACuriousMind

@nitsua60 Oh, I've seen those. Well, one of them. Always plans stories and worlds he thinks are amazing and fun - and then does nothing to actually get the players interested. We just stumble around doing not much of anything and whenever the players try something cool it's "nah, that doesn't work" or "well, you succeed, but nothing interesting happens" and when the players complain it's "I'm the GM, why can't you just accept what I say?"

NautArch

@Patta my group really has never tried to tailor events to the characters, and I think it's an issue. Our players live in the GM's world, but are not really part of it. It makes a pretty big disconnect and also doesn't help that the GM usually has us solve puzzles as ourselves and not our PCs

LegendaryDude

@nitsua60 This is a great piece of advice. I started out trying to track everything and it quickly became burdensome. Just abilities, skill proficiencies and backgrounds (and TIBF) is all you really need to incorporate them.

nitsua60

14:44

@LegendaryDude TIBF?

LegendaryDude

@nitsua60 Traits Ideal Bond Flaw

NautArch

@LegendaryDude really really like this idea. We write up backgrounds for our PCs, but then they basically gather dust. I asked for their proficiencies in the last session I ran and tried to incorporate events where they'd need to use them. It worked okay, but mostly because i'm still learning how to make it work well :)

nitsua60

Ah, I'd have lumped it all under "personality." I always forget about those. I do find them a little strange: "role-play this way."

NautArch

and what my group likes to do vs what i'd like them to do

SPavel

I always have trouble getting my PCs to have goals

They really, really, really like to be railroaded

Adam

14:46

@NautArch I mean, a lot of times there isn't really a way to solve puzzles as the characters without it just being "okay, roll a [relevant skill] check a bunch".

DForck42

@LegendaryDude it's really hard for a Dm to use those unless you get them written down and in front of you, tbh

SPavel

Which is why I always go out of my way to have character motivations independent of (but possibly relating to) the plot

Adam

In fact, I'd argue that the whole point of puzzles and riddles is to challenge the players. And if the players don't like that, then the DM shouldnt throw puzzles at them.

DForck42

similer to fate, it's hard to engage someone's aspects if you don't know what they are

LegendaryDude

@nitsua60 I don't view them as "role-play this way" so much as "this is a very basic framework of my character's personality."

Patta

14:47

@NautArch that sounds like a game I would have left quickly. I run an open world game into exactly the same trap, but luckily managed to fix it. That (and all the dw talk) reminds me: I still have to finish my Web app for managing Fronts in an open world Campaign... (Dungeon World style)

NautArch

@Adam I'm not sure. I think there is a way to roleplay puzzle solving.

nitsua60

@LegendaryDude I think I could grok them better if there were something like a DW-style "evaluate/update this at the end of each session" practice. Speaking of which, maybe I'll play with houseruling that....

Adam

Roleplay it perhaps. But ultimately, the mechanical puzzle solving I think worst best when it's the players themselves doing the solving. They can describe how you guys came upon that solution in the game world any way you like.

Patta

@NautArch yes. In 5e it is "roll Investigation".

NautArch

@Patta I currently don't have a lot of options and i've come to terms with most of the things I don't like and focus on the stuff I do (actually playing d&d). I can talk pretty freely with one of th eother players and use him (who has a closer connection to the DM) to try and make changes.

@Patta no, i think it's more than that :) If you're playing your PC, you can try and solve things with their personality and knowledge and what the DM has provided for clues.

LegendaryDude

14:49

@DForck42 I think that depends; I tend to use ones that don't rely on external influence.

Oh wait, you said hard for the DM to use.

In my case I don't think my current characters' TIBF are very useful to the DM at all.

Traits: "I express admiration or contempt in ways unfamiliar to others." "I have my own ideas about what is and isn't food and I find the eating habits of others revolting or fascinating."
Ideal: "I am far from home, everything is strange and wonderful.
Bond: "I am fascinated by the beauty and wonder of this land."
Flaw: "I have a weakness for the new intoxicants and other pleasures of this land."

With the exception of the flaw, my DM doesn't really have anything useful there except to expose my character to new experiences, which will happen naturally throughout the course of the adventure.

Adam

@NautArch For example, I've had puzzles where the players couldn't speak out loud, so neither could we. That kind of stuff is fine. But I don't think that puzzles work if you say "My character is good with puzzles! Can I make some kind of skill check to get the answer without thinking about it myself at all?"

LegendaryDude

@nitsua60 Well they're not set in stone, and the DMG IIRC gives guidance on how those things might change throughout the game, bonds and flaws especially.

NautArch

@Adam very much agreed. it shouldn't be a skill check to solve the puzzle, but thinking about the answer as your PC and not as yourself.

SPavel

Puzzles are annoying in general - they rely on the players trying to think like the GM

Patta

@NautArch Yes, but that's not what the rules say. It's not that problematic in 5e, as they are just "guidelines", but still.

NautArch

14:53

@SPavel that too. Answers are obvious to the puzzlemaker but there could very easily be a step that isn't logical for someone who didn't design it.

LegendaryDude

@nitsua60 If your bond is that your sister is missing and you will do anything to find her, and then you find her, your bond might update to doing anything to protect her or to keep it from happening again.

Adam

@NautArch I think we are on the same page then. And there is nothing wrong with not enjoying the act of solving the puzzle as a player, not as a character. But at that point, you should talk to the DM and maybe change up how often or what kind of puzzles come up, if they should come up at all.

LegendaryDude

Puzzles are almost always player challenges, not PC challenges, and that's fine if they're few and far between.

SPavel

The issue is also that there are so many ways of solving (or not solving) the puzzle

NautArch

@Adam yeah, unfortunately that's one of those things that i've let go of in terms of creating change.

nitsua60

14:54

@LegendaryDude Right--just that they're easy to forget about... that's why I'm wondering if a "end of session" mechanic where they were examined would help me prioritize their relevance.

LegendaryDude

Curse of Strahd has a really kind of neat puzzle in it that can't be solved by PC skill challenges.

SPavel

If you're a human trapped in a room, you pretty much have to play along, but if you're an Ogre with 50 Strength, your puzzle solution is "remove the door from its hinges using my meaty fists"

And there can only be so many adamantine door hinges before it stretches verisimilitude

Adam

@SPavel A good GM would factor that in as a solution to the puzzle.

LegendaryDude

@SPavel "All the doors and hinges in this dungeon are made of unbreakium. Sorry."

Patta

@LegendaryDude i'd hate that, then. Really, really hate that. But I am bad at puzzles in RL, so.... that's probably why

SPavel

14:56

"We loot the unbreakium and sell it to the king"

LegendaryDude

@Patta I don't want to put the details of the puzzle here because spoliers, but I promise it's not as "puzzling" as you might think.

nitsua60

@SPavel this reminds me of the 0e rule that all dungeon doors are stuck to PCs, but function normally for monsters.

Adam

@SPavel "Yes! yes you do. He takes it, and offers each of you a knighthood and a small fief as a reward!"

nitsua60

(Or maybe 1e? They all blend.)

SPavel

Stupid monsters with their cardkeys

One of these days I will design a dungeon with a real ecology

ACuriousMind

14:57

@SPavel That's called a "town"

LegendaryDude

@SPavel something like Rappan Athuk?

SPavel

@ACuriousMind Nah, a classic dungeon is an underground ruin

And a town needs to be supported by agriculture from the countryside - it cannot produce enough for itself without magic

A dungeon is typically a closed ecosystem

Transcript for