TRPG General Chat

Miniman

01:37

@Zachiel I was talking about Fantasy Grounds, actually.

Roll20 doesn't take much work or money to be useful.

BESW

@JackMerlot [wave]

Shalvenay

hey there @JackMerlot

and @BESW as well

Shalvenay

02:03

hey @Masakan

Masakan

@Shalvenay hello hey i wanna thank you guys again for helping me out with my question the other day

Shalvenay

@Masakan no worries. you saw the other answer to it right? (KRyan's one of the Stack's resident 3.5e experts)

Masakan

yeah i did and that got me thinking

how good is sublime chord and why?

well actually

i know how good it is but...is it worth all the skillpoints you have to put into in order to get it

if your going for a skill monkey character i honestly dont think so

@Shalvenay

Shalvenay

ah. toss that as a comment on KRyan's answer -- I'm not a 3.5e expert by any means

Masakan

yeah but i dont want it to get flagged as starting a discussion

Miniman

02:09

@Masakan Spells in D&D are just super OP.

You could sacrifice every skill point you ever get for 9th-level spells, and it would still be worth it.

Shalvenay

@Masakan uh, that's not really a problem :) the whole idea of comments is to provide a vehicle for minor side discussion

Miniman

@Shalvenay No it's not! Comments are for improving the question or answer that they are a comment on.

BESW

@Masakan If it would make a good addition to his answer, leave a comment asking for him to add it. Otherwise, either leave a comment asking him to chat to talk about it, or ask it as a whole new question.

Masakan

@Miniman Yeah but A I honestly feel cheap doing so. and B if your DM just decides he's just gonna "CONVINIENTLY" put you in a situation full of antimagic and you become too reliant on it

you're pretty much fucked

Shalvenay

@Masakan AMFs are completely screwball anyway -- I'd table-ban AMF if I was GMing 3.x

it's really the wrong answer to caster supremacy

Miniman

02:11

Antimagic is...problematic. Not from the POV that it makes the game difficult, it actually makes it a completely different game.

Masakan

@Shalvenay why would you do that?

Miniman

But it's worse on people who don't have spells than on people who do.

Shalvenay

@Masakan what @Miniman said -- it's actually harder on non-casters than it is on casters

Masakan

frankly i hear so many story about people who just win fights with a single spell or literally break the game to the point where everyone else is just sitting on their asses doign nothing

Shalvenay

better to get the non-casters into a higher tier class (say Tome of Battle stuff) than to start beating on the game system with a sledgehammer

@Masakan that's because GMs and players don't understand how the 3.x tier system is supposed to be used

Miniman

02:13

@Masakan Well, exactly. That happens because spells are the most powerful thing in the game.

So asking if it's worth getting spells, the answer will always be yes.

Masakan

so why not allow something that can put spellcasters on a leash?

Miniman

@Masakan Because it's worse for everyone else, and doesn't really hamper spellcasters who know what they're doing that much.

Masakan

personally i like the antimagic field+extraordinary spell aim combo

i guess what im trying to say while i could just focus on doing nothing but having phenominal cosmic powers

Miniman

@Masakan It's perfectly valid to decide that you don't want to be a spellcaster, of course. But asking if getting spells is a good idea, objectively the answer is yes.

Masakan

i honestly feel cheap and dirty knowing i can solve all oru problems on a whim

this is why i enjoy gish characters

i can cast magic but i dont neccesarily NEED it

BESW

02:15

A) It's simpler to increase the power of non-casters than to try and put an effective leash on an extremely versatile set of systems whose whole gimmick is getting around things.
B) It's more rewarding and makes for more awesome games if you increase the lower-powered class than decrease the higher-powered ones.

Shalvenay

@Masakan I'd rather have the guy who normally runs WIzards play a fullopt stock Truenamer on my table (and Truenamer is the single most broken class in 3.5e as it flatly does not function) instead of trying to beat up on the wizard with AMFs and breaking all the Fighter's gear in the process

Masakan

does it really matter when they dont get a chance to do anything because the party wizard polymorphed into a 7 headed hydra and one shot the boss?

BESW

C) D&D's "magic solves problems" theme is by this point so ingrained in its legacy and traditions that if you want to play a game where magic isn't the answer to everything, you might as well go find a different system which actually does that from the start.

Masakan

so your basically saying all a DM can do at this point is trust his spellcasters wont abuse what they can do

otherwise just sit back and watch as the party does what it wants

lovely

Miniman

@Masakan Or he can ask them not to play the most powerful classes in the game.

Shalvenay

02:17

@Masakan and what BESW said is so true -- if you want to play a low-magic game, 3.5e is NOT the system to do it in!

Miniman

It's not a popular solution, but it's a valid one.

Masakan

dude i enjoy forgotten realms alright?

BESW

Not "all a DM can do," but you've stumbled onto one of the flaws in D&D: most editions are so sprawling and complex that balance is nigh impossible unless the group actively works for it.

Masakan

i like high magic games to a degree

but at the same time

i rather have the option to drop AMF's on the party when they start abusing their stuff

BESW

The flip side of that flaw is, it means a group can choose the power settings for their campaign themselves.

Masakan

02:19

rather then just let them walk around and do whatever they damn well please

BESW

But really, AMF does just mess with the non-casters.

Miniman

@Masakan If they're good at abusing, this won't stop them.

But the ones who aren't abusing will get wrecked.

It just makes a bad situation worse.

Masakan

then the non casters can blame the casters

BESW

Casters can still use anything which isn't subject to spell resistance, while non-casters are deeply dependent on their magic items to get anywhere near parity.

Masakan

im sorry but either he stop being an asshole abotu everything or you guys pay the price

this is why i would be a bad dm

frankly im convinced that short of a barbarian

if you are lower then a tier 3 class

you are kinda useless outside of niche situations

BESW

02:21

AMF doesn't actually fix the problem, so blaming your use of AMF on the person who's making the choices is... disingenuous at best. The solution is social, not mechanical.

Shalvenay

@Masakan -- that depends on what tier the campaign is structured to operate at

Masakan

social...in DND?

i know you guys are an exception to that

but i've had a terrible history with anti social players with this game

Shalvenay

@Masakan geek social fallacies are common yes :/

Miniman

@Masakan In general, RPGs are best played with people you know, like, and trust.

BESW

That's a problem which can be solved, but it's never solved by imposing mechanical penalties for social misbehaviour.

Shalvenay

02:22

@BESW because people will respond to them mechanically instead of socially

Masakan

well i mean i could just do the whole send mage killing assassins to kill said characters in his sleep

or just flat out kick him from the campaign

keep in mind im thinking of this from the roll20 perspective

BESW

Again, game solutions to friendship problems don't work. Roll20 doesn't magically absolve us from creating a coherent group dynamic between participants.

Miniman

@Masakan Again, if the player knows what they're doing, this is just handing them XP.

But what BESW said is more important.

Masakan

so yeah spellcasters can do whatever they want

Shalvenay

find players that you can play with, and then get together and decide on a game to play

Masakan

02:24

and all the DM can do is watch

thats sad

Shalvenay

@Masakan -- uhm, NPCs can cast spells too

BESW

RPG.SE has many answers about how to make a functional group... and many more questions which arise from people trying to use the game's rules to replace the social contract.

Masakan

idk how else to put it

its so frustrating knowing that making an interesting character is kinda put to the back side

as opposed to makeing a character that can break the campaign as easily as possible

Miniman

@Shalvenay The game where the GM and the players are competing to see who's better at optimization is fun, but I suspect it's not the game Masakan is looking to play.

Masakan

but i guess thats metagaming for you

Shalvenay

02:26

@Miniman nods

Miniman

@Masakan Who said it is?

Masakan

because if theres one thing i cant stand

Miniman

Yes, players can focus on making the most powerful character possible.

That doesn't mean that they do.

Shalvenay

@Masakan here's something to ruminate on -- competitive/character-optimization metagaming can be seen as in character

BESW

In a system like D&D 3.5, system mastery means being able to choose the level of power the group is playing at and not accidentally stumbling into a forced escalation.

Shalvenay

02:27

@BESW very true

Masakan

its people who just make something as stupid as possible and just fluff everything else

BESW

But to make it work, there needs to be a social element where the whole group is on the same page about their goals.

Masakan

and how often does that happen?

forgive me for being so cynical

my dnd experience hasnt been the best

Miniman

I haven't had a group yet that hasn't had "having a good time" as their primary focus.

Shalvenay

@Masakan in a functioning group, it's pretty much a necessity.

BESW

02:28

There's a big difference between "that happens a lot and is inevitable" and "that happens a lot and is addressable."

Shalvenay

@BESW no kidding

Masakan

im sorry but if you have thatr much power at your finger tips

BESW

I'm guessing your groups may not have been aware of the dynamics they were stumbling into, and didn't even know to look for the tools to help them get out of it.

Masakan

and know how to use it

your going to use it

let me just explain one of my examples

i once had a dm who custom made his own boss

a shock trooping charging barbarian

I was at full health

he charged at me

killed me instantly 100-0

and critical damage was off

didnt even give me a chance to bleed out

i was just dead

Miniman

@Masakan You can choose not to use it.

Shalvenay

02:30

@Masakan -- I've been in a HM 3.5e game with a DM that was skilled in charopt. He was able to make the world hilariously magical, because he understood that high magic means that magic is common in the world, not just powerful from a character optimization perspective

BESW

Okay, so why did he do that? Be serious and thoughtful. Clearly he thought it was the thing he was expected to do, while you didn't. What's the difference between his view of the game and yours which led him to make that choice?

Miniman

And most people do, because they find the game less fun when they use that power.

Shalvenay

and I had an absolute blast, even with the time I got tossed a 9th level slot while still a 3rd level druid

Masakan

@Miniman so what am i just unlucky?

Miniman

@Masakan Possibly, but I'd also suggest you're finding groups the wrong way.

Shalvenay

02:31

@Masakan yeah, you're finding groups basically by rolling a golf ball :P

vs actually finding players you can work with well and seeing what circles they run in

Masakan

maybe

frankly my method of creating characters is unique

BESW

What we're getting at is that a successful group has to all be on the same page in terms of the reasons they're playing, and that doesn't just happen accidentally very often.

Masakan

i try to make characters that are both powerful and functionally interesting

whic his why it took me months to finalize the dancer bard i told you guys about

Shalvenay

@Masakan that's not as rare as you think

Miniman

@Masakan That's definitely not unique.

BESW

02:33

The trick is to make "powerful" fit the group's goals instead of subverting them.

Shalvenay

@BESW exactly

Masakan

i try to keep my characters within the power level of high tier 3 low tier 2

BESW

There's a LOT of different ways to make a character effective, because there's a lot of different kinds of effectiveness.

Masakan

i want them to do alot of things

but not have an answer to everything

BESW

Even within the tiny sphere of combat effectiveness, I've had great success making PCs who shore up everyone else instead of fixing problems themselves.

Masakan

02:34

My first character is a Warblade 4/Wizard 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldrich Knight 9

BESW

I quickly learned "One Punch Man" characters are boring.

Masakan

very powerful defencive and lots at his disposal

Miniman

@Masakan Why not Jade Phoenix Mage over standard Eldritch Knight?

Masakan

@Miniman im considering it but i wanna make the most of it and this character focuses more on air and lightning rather then fire

Shalvenay

whereas, I roll with sort of a "bench player" ethos, characters who can sort of flow to gaps in a party's construction and plug them -- both Cleric and Druid do quite well with this line of thought, I find.

Masakan

02:35

i have something else in mind for Jade phoenix mage

my other character is Monk 2/ Cleric 4/Sacred Fist 10/ Divine Disciple 4

basically a combat medic with a focus on ice magic

prominint inusing stunning fist abilities

i cant spell tonight

Miniman

@Masakan Fair enough - I just wondered because Eldritch Knight is kinda plain, if you see what I mean. If you're focused on air, I'd suggest looking up the Knight Phantom from Five Nations - lots of cool Phantom Steed abilities.

Masakan

i considered it

but i dont have the room for still spell

Miniman

Ah, right.

Masakan

which is annoying

so yeah work with what ya got

besides i think that boost to level 8 spells makes up for it imo

Miniman

@Masakan I mean, Knight Phantom and Eldritch Knight are basically the same class. I just think Knight Phantom is cooler XD

Masakan

02:39

trust me if i had room for still spell i would use it in a heart beat

plus im pretty sure knight phantom is ebberon specific

and i have to assume the dm can get anal about that

Miniman

@Masakan It is, yeah.

Shalvenay

building "portable" characters is hard, yes, even with a good set of portability goals in mind

(I wouldn't be surprised if there are DMs out there who would flip the table at the thought of a Paladin/Warlock multiclass)

Masakan

i ran into someone who thought multiclassing was overpowered

BESW

@Shalvenay Pretty sure there's a prestige class for that.

Shalvenay

@Masakan in 3.5e? that's actually rather funny -- straight Druid 20, played properly, is one of the most powerful builds out there -- there is almost nothing multiclass wise that makes druids better than they already are (planar shepherd is it, but it's the kind of class that is barely one step up from the truenamer in authorship)

Masakan

02:43

basically the concept is

i dont understand it it must be op

which is ugh...

but back to sublime chord, i can easily see it working character concept wise...i can just say my character is a fortune telling gypsy and it would work

Shalvenay

@Masakan that is ugh, I agree. (Paladin/Warlock in 3.5e is actually kinda underwhelming -- it's a better build in 5e, which is where my Palalock hails from system-wise)

Masakan

it really is

BESW

Mmm. 3.5's complexity, and the nigh-infinite variations on interpretation and implementation based on play style and play goals, makes it easy for two people to arrive at totally opposite conclusions about the effectiveness of a mechanical feature--and both are right, from their perspective of experience.

Masakan

you learn only certain multiclasses work

if one thing gishing has taught me

you NEED to plan ahead

if you want it to work

otherwise it can very easily become useless

Shalvenay

@Masakan -- at least, if you consider "gish" to be limited to arcane casting

Masakan

02:46

i dont

i've seen arcane gishes divine gishes

psionic gishes

Shalvenay

Cleric by itself is quite serviceable as a divine gish xD

Masakan

though those are SUPER limited

yeah but its kinda boring in a way

BESW

(And we are once again listing reasons why I haven't played D&D for almost four years.)

Masakan

i like dnd as a great character builder

Shalvenay

yeah, limiting yourself to D&D means you're missing out on all but a small fraction of the RPG landscape

Masakan

02:48

yeah but it was what i was introduced too

im considering moving to pathfinder since they have something similar to tome of battle in path of war

AND its much easier to do a sci fi themed campaign

Shalvenay

let me see here -- I have most editions of D&D under my belt, as well as Fate Accelerated, and dabblings in Classic Traveller, Roll For Shoes, and now Dungeon World...still want to find a GURPS game, and give Burning Wheel a whirl too

BESW

@Masakan I started in D&D 3.5, moved to 4e, and then left D&D completely for systems which focus on characterisation mechanics, give equal or greater priority to non-violent problem-solving, and don't require extreme levels of system mastery to avoid trap options.

Shalvenay

@Masakan ...why would you run SF in Pathfinder? O.o it seems like an almost total impedance mismatch between system and setting

Masakan

SF?

Shalvenay

(considering that Pathfinder is much like 3.5e in being only really suitable for high-magic worlds)

sci-fi

BESW

02:51

@Shalvenay ...because the d20 System thinks it's a truly generic system which can do anything equally well?

Masakan

@Shalvenay think star ocean where high magic items can be subbed for high tech items

Shalvenay

for all its quirks regarding 30 years of tech advancement, I'd rather deal with Traveller for such a game (although I'd hack it to deal with said 30 years of tech advancement)

Masakan

pathfinder can do that way easier

symbology replaces magic things like that

BESW

> Any sufficiently advanced society will mistakenly believe all magic to be unknown technology.

Shalvenay

@Masakan -- the problem is that high magic doesn't really assume invariances the way a high-tech SF world does. 3.x doesn't have a lot of tools to express technical constraints, IOW.

Masakan

02:55

all i know is that i see more scifi stuff with pathfinder then i do with 3.5

and since i frequent roll20

i mostly see dnd and pathfinder played anyway

Shalvenay

@Masakan probably because PF is actively maintained/promoted

Masakan

true

my only issue with pathfinder

is that its spell list isnt NEARLY as vast as 3.5's

Shalvenay

but seriously. it sounds like you need to be introduced to a few systems well outside the d20 sphere

Masakan

probably

Shalvenay

(Traveller would be a good start -- it was built from the ground up for space-exploration sci-fi in a Fireflyesque vein, so it has much more tooling for dealing with the issues of scale and developmental asymmetry that such a setting poses)

Masakan

02:59

seems shadowrunny

Shalvenay

@Masakan somewhat, but more grit and less cyberpunk

Masakan

yeah not for me sorry

i think im a pussy when it comes to stuff like that

but im a massive anime nut when it comes to stuff like that

Shalvenay

(it also seems to be less problematic interpretation-wise than any of D&D esp 3.x, the WW systems, or SR)

Masakan

and i know how the dnd community more or less HATES anime

or the tabletop community in general

BESW

[raises eyebrow]

Shalvenay

03:02

@Masakan eh?

Miniman

@Masakan ...wait, what?

Masakan

i get mocked all the time for having an anime mindset when it comes to dnd

Shalvenay

I personally am not a fan of anime, but that's a matter of personal taste in visual style for me

@Masakan ...define "anime mindset"

BESW

You might be surprised by the number of RPGs directly inspired by various anime themes, styles, and properties. But "anime" is a medium, not a genre, so it's almost meaningless on its own.

Masakan

Not super gritty, or game of thrones im gonna make everyones life suck

when i make characters i think

ok can this guy fight someoen from rwby kingdom hearts or the tales series

and hold their own

if they can they are ready to go

BESW

03:05

Yeeah, okay, your experience with RPGs seems to be very narrow and non-representative.

Masakan

tabletop right?

if so then i suppose

BESW

That is the subject of the conversation, so far as I can tell.

Masakan

yeah my tabletop exierience has been....mixed at best

Miniman

We need a support group for people who've had a bad experiences with RPGs.

3

Masakan

rule#1 avoid giant tip

somewhat elitist

and will not accept any dissenting opinions

Shalvenay

03:09

@Miniman sign me up?

BESW

Seriously though, Big Eyes Small Mouth, Open Versatile Anime, Teenagers from Outer Space, Macross II, Mekton, Maid, Hot Guys Making Out, Anima Prime, Mecha vs Kaiju, CthulhuTech...

Shalvenay

@Masakan RPG.SE is probably the broadest-based RPG community you'll run into -- just about everywhere else on the internet is more specialized in terms of playstyles and/or systems

Masakan

i noticed

BESW

And I don't even really pay much attention to anime.

Miniman

@BESW For the kind of anime Masakan was talking about, something more like Anima:Beyond Fantasy is probably a closer fit.

The over-the-top action style.

Shalvenay

03:15

yeah, having seen that before, Anima: BF fits the Eastern high-fantasy/over-the-top action style that you're saying @Masakan is referring to

Masakan

wow i just glanced at it and yeah that sounds perfect for me

Shalvenay

come to think of it, I'd think Dungeon World would work well for him as well

or a hack thereof -- the stock DW playbooks are oriented towards Western fantasy tropes instead of Eastern, but a Far East version of DW is not beyond my imagination

BESW

There's also... ah, what's that over-the-top kung fu game they rebooted a couple years ago?

Miniman

@Masakan There are a lot of RPGs out there - for any given game type, there's probably one that fits much better than D&D.

BESW

Feng Shui, that's it.

Masakan

03:17

too bad no one seems to play it

Shalvenay

@Masakan -- we've had a couple of Anima: BF players drift by

Masakan

seems rare to find one though

it seems like the creators are more content to make video games off the universe

i mean to be fair

they cant hope to top the popularity of DND

so they might as well find another outlet

Shalvenay

@Masakan -- not all systems are setting-dependent for that matter

Fate is a great example of a system that assumes very few things about its setting

(it's a system that can handle a wyrmling wandering around an airport terminal xD)

@Masakan -- although even if you're setting dependent, it's still possible to have your own setting instead of adopting an existing one wholesale. (Anima: BF has its own stock setting/lore for instance)

BESW

Fate's also got a few anime-style variants too, depending on what you're looking for.

Masakan

but yeah i would be very willing to play this game if i can find people who actually play it

Shalvenay

03:23

@Masakan keep your eyes peeled then -- folks drop in and out of this chat all the time

Masakan

guess im gonna be here a while

Shalvenay

@Masakan don't worry, there's plenty of room for you to pitch a tent and camp :) just like the Stack has no rule against necromancy, Stack chat has no rule against camping

Miniman

@Masakan app.roll20.net/lfg/search/…

nitsua60

@Miniman I thought "we are a support group for people who've had a bad experience with RPGs."

Masakan

I WAS JUST THERE!

Shalvenay

03:24

oh hey there @nitsua60

Masakan

why did it show up now?!~

ugh w/e

Miniman

@Masakan Because I am a wizard.

Shalvenay

watches said wyrmling jump into @Miniman's lap

nitsua60

@Shalvenay hiya

Miniman

@nitsua60 Well, maybe you and BESW are. I'm definitely not :P

Shalvenay

03:25

@nitsua60 now a good time to talk on voice?

nitsua60

@Miniman Well, I've never seen you be mean to someone around here... which, depending on where they're coming from, probably greatly improves things =|

@Shalvenay why?

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 got a few things I want to bounce off of you re: Yara or w/e the priest is (as well as a few other random musings if you don't mind)

Masakan

pop quiz

look at this feat list

Weapon Finesse
Deadly Defence
Combat Casting
Craft Alchemical item
Improved Unarmed Strike Bonus Feat
Practiced Spellcaster
Steady Concentration
Einhander
EK Bonus Feat: Martial Study (Bounding Assault)
Flyby Attack

Extraordinary Spell Aim

the blank spot is level 15

what would be a good feat to fill it

Miniman

@Masakan Depends what you're trying to do.

Masakan

thats just it though im not entirely sure

Do i just put in another martial study?

idk

Miniman

03:29

I mean, what do you envisage this character doing each round.

BESW

...Toughness is equally useful to almost everyone.

Miniman

Are they casting spells, using maneuvers, attacking, or what?

Masakan

combination of all 3

Miniman

Also, I can't help myself - Craft Alchemical Item? Why?

Magician

@BESW A very true statement.

Masakan

03:30

out of combat utility

besides everyone LOVES tanglefoot bags

Miniman

@Masakan But...you could just buy anything you can make with it, rather than burning a feat on it.

Masakan

im stingy

Miniman

This is a very strange build (to me, at least) - I'm having trouble coming up with good suggestions.

You can't go wrong with Martial Study, of course.

Masakan

yeah i know it doesnt make sense at first glance

but believe me i thought long and hard about how it works

Miniman

Shadow Jaunt is one of the most amazingly useful things to have outside combat.

There are so many uses for at-will short-range teleportation, it's crazy.

Masakan

03:34

i dont think thats really needed since by this point im pretty much flying everywhere

hmm maybe i should post my spell list too?

Miniman

@Masakan I'd rather know what this character is doing than what they can do, if you see what I mean.

Masakan

doing...doing well generally in combat they would be a mid liner protecting the backline while supporting the front

getting flanks off when they can

finishing off long distance enemies

Miniman

For example, knowing that you plan to be always flying is vastly more useful than knowing you know the Fly spell.

Everyone knows Fly.

Masakan

actually

its overland flight

Miniman

@Masakan I figured that, but it doesn't really matter - that's my point. The important bit is that you're always flying.

Masakan

03:37

but yeah I'll generally be flying most of the time in combat by this point

also the specialty is Lightning, air, abjuration and transmutation spells

i considered arcane strike, but i've been told its not really that good for wizardly gishes

Miniman

@Masakan This, and what you just said, don't really help at all. I'm looking more for a statement like "They buff themselves with haste and then flyby attack enemies while staying out of reach" or something more like that.

Masakan

ok alright so generally my character is very defensive and cautious by nature casting shield before every big fight and greater luminous armor when things get bad

due to flyby attack he wants to be as mobile as possible effectively zipping aroudn the battlefield

he also has various dispel and antimagic abilities since due to him being a gish

a head on fight with a spellcaster is just asking to die

so he needed an edge

hence the AMF extraordinary spell aim combo

in a nut shell

he doesnt want to get hit

Joel Harmon

@Miniman This stack is as support group for people who've had bad experiences with RPGs.

Miniman

Hmmm, ok. So if you're planning to put up an AMF, you want to make people stay inside it. Have you considered Improved Trip?

Masakan

that late in the game?

hmm idk

nitsua60

03:43

Alright, @JoelHarmon... tell me something you didn't know a week ago.

Masakan

plus it would involve getting combat expertise which i honestly despise as a feat

Miniman

@Masakan I'm sort of assuming very low levels of optimization here, since your feat choices suggest a group that's not optimizing much at all.

Masakan

again i know it doesnt make much sense at first

Miniman

@Masakan Oh yeah, I forgot about that, and you asked for a feat not a level dip.

Masakan

but it all comes together when you actualy see it in action

Miniman

03:45

@Masakan So, Einhander? Deadly Defense? The aforementioned Craft Alchemical Item?

Masakan

my character is mostly fighting defencively

BESW

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Miniman

@Masakan Ok, but even then, you've burned 2 feats for +2 AC and +1d6 damage.

Masakan

6

its 6 ac

BESW

Bah, one of those is cancelled.

**[Timely RPGery](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nKltjD1HJ954pS3QZZL-E_ckNaKEeedxMKn7XwdFiio/edit?usp=sharing "Click for full source doc; please suggest items to pin!"):**
[BoH](https://bundleofholding.com "Buy RPGs cheap in bulk, support charities & indie designers!");
[Standing Rock](http://flamesrising.rpgnow.com/product/193183 "You can support the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe in its fight to protect its waters and sacred places by purchasing this massive RPG bundle.");
[AW 2e](http://apocalypse-world.com/ "Apocalypse World's second edition is now available.");

Miniman

03:49

@Masakan +2 from Einhander, +4 from...?

Masakan

the base from fighting defencively

+1 from 5 ranks in tumble

and +1 from the cautious trait

total of 6

and remember

this stacks with the shield bonus from the shield spell pumped by abjurant champion

and greater luminous armor

Miniman

You would have all of those anyway, though. Einhander and Deadly Defense are 2 feats for +2 AC and +1d6 damage.

Masakan

i fail to see the problem here

Miniman

@Masakan It's not a problem.

Joel Harmon

the problem is Opportunity Cost

what else could you have gotten instead?

Miniman

03:53

But it does mean that it's impossible for me to give you useful suggestions.

Masakan

honestly nothing

one of the main goals is to pump up ac as much as possible

and 2 feats for damage equal to a great sword

and 6 free dodge ac

which is made more useful with uncanny dodge

but its fine i just twondered if you guys had any ideas

thanks for trying though

Miniman

Just to check that I've understood correctly, you're looking at a level 20 character?

Masakan

potentially though in most campaigns i dont see it going past level 15 well any reasonable campaign anyway

Miniman

So, not to put too fine a point on it, at level 20 no level-appropriate threats are going to notice your 4 attacks at 1d8 + 1d6.

Masakan

hmm

i hade other ways to boost damage

but those involve items

.......think arcane strike is worth it?

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