TRPG General Chat

BESW

00:36

"The best machete is the one you're comfortable using." - Words of Wisdom for D&D night. Also gardening.

Tweeted by UrsulaV on September 27, 2016 at 12:24 AM

trogdor

lol

Shalvenay

01:46

hey there @Reibello

BESW

02:54

Dungeon World: we are attempting to convert the rampaging golem to the local religion.

Shalvenay

hey there @RollingFeles

RollingFeles

@Shalvenay hi! How's it going?

Shalvenay

03:28

@RollingFeles alright here, having fun with the DW game

RollingFeles

Good to hear :)

At last session my players had a bit of a walk in vicinity and I've decided to make a map for them, to visualize it and control their movement in province map. So, I tried hexographer. This is a nice tool, but one of those which makes me itch to develop one myself. Because even thought it's nice, it have issues that frustrates me and these issues are trivial. Maybe pro version are far better, because it's updated, whereas free is not, but there is no word on site.

Shalvenay

03:48

ah

nitsua60

04:55

@Shalvenay also good to hear here =)

BESW

05:35

trogdor

wat

master class trolling I guess?

BESW

05:52

It wasn't blaspheming, it was constructive criticism. -@LizardbethArt WE DO NOT GIVE CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM TO GODS, INIX! -@UrsulaV #dnd

Tweeted by RebelsHeart on September 27, 2016 at 1:05 AM

BESW

11:44

@AudricdeSchaetzen [wave] Hi!

BESW

12:01

@T.Smit Hi!

BlueMoon93

12:15

In D&D 5e, what are interesting race/class/background combinations, that might seem odd at first, but eventually reveal themselves powerful and fun to play? I'm running a group new to D&D and I want to entice them. Some players are more fun oriented, and others are in it for the power-level, but we all want odd and different-from-usual characters.

For example, a barbarian halfling seems ridiculous at first, but a Stout Halfling will have resistance to a lot of damage types during rage, he will compensate for his poor movement and, if you call him Rambo Baggins, he'll be quite a fun character. Other ideas I had involve a crazy hermit Tiefling Sorcerer that hears voices, explodes every so often with Wild Magic and Hellish Rebuke, and is called Gandolf.

What uncommon class/race/background combinations have you seen or though of that turn out to be strong and fun to play with?

kviiri

@BlueMoon93 Hiya o/ it's been ages since I've played DnD so can't recall anything in particular, yet.

BlueMoon93

No probs

if you do remember something, let me know

we're trying to think of ideas, but we're in no rush

kviiri

Most of my DnD experience is from 4e, and it seems like an edition where even quite zany ideas can work just fine.

BESW

Yeah, part of 4e's design philosophy was to mitigate and avoid trap options.

BlueMoon93

what's trap options? dont know the term

kviiri

12:25

Of course the game'd recommend stronger combinations, but I don't think it was too easy to construct anything clearly bad in terms of race and class only.

BESW

@BlueMoon93 A trap option is a choice that you can make which is significantly poorer than other available choices, but is presented without comment or indication of its relative lack of merit.

BlueMoon93

ah

kviiri

I sort of like the DnD 4e design philosophy for those things.

It's not the kind of system I enjoy, but it's designed reasonably well for a certain playstyle, and I respect that.

BESW

D&D 3.5 was rife with trap options, making character creation itself an analytical game; without system mastery, character build choices that seemed narratively powerful (or at least reasonable) could render a character much less effective than his peers.

If 5e has re-embraced trap options as a legacy feature, I'm all the more glad I moved on from D&D games when I did.

kviiri

Was the infamous Truenamer 3.5e? I've heard many consider it to be a junk tier beneath the normal junk tiers.

BESW

12:31

Yes, it's a good example of "sounds awesome, but the mechanics don't back up the narrative."

24

Q: What is wrong with the Truenamer?

I have seen a lot of people say that the Truenamer does not work (such as this answer placing Truenamer at the bottom tier) or that it's terrible. As far as I can read and see, though, it seems to be very strong as a caster type. At low levels it doesn't much more or less then a low level wizard...

For myself, I'm a lot happier in systems where the narrative and the mechanics are effectively the same thing.

kviiri

@BESW Same here. I'm pretty bored with the tiers of power DnD encourages.

BESW

Concepts like tiers and trap options just don't come into it for games like Fate. I enjoyed the thrill of system mastery in 3.5 and 4e for a while, but now I prefer avoiding secondary games of private skill.

Anyway, @BlueMoon93, it sounds like you're not necessarily so much needing a specific mechanic combination as an amusing RP gimmick.

Miniman

@BESW Note: Parodies of well-known characters start off as amusing RP gimmicks but wear thin extremely quickly.

BESW

@Miniman ...having GMed for Edward the Vryloka, yes.

T. Smit

Just wondering, but is it considered okay to post a character build and ask for tips for improving it?

BESW

12:42

@T.Smit Yes, but you've gotta be pretty specific about what your goal is.

Miniman

@T.Smit A general request for tips is off-topic here - there's ways to make it into a question that works here, but you'd probably be better off posting it somewhere you can actually just ask for tips and get them.

T. Smit

Alright, thanks.

BESW

Check out which questions get useful answers and which get closed.

eg, this Riddick build request had to go through a LOT of revisions because requests for builds that just say "like X character" are insufficiently detailed unless they specify what qualities and themes the asker is focused on.

And this request for a dual shield build is closed until the asker can explain what they want the build to do beyond "justify carrying two shields."

The Stack Exchange needs questions that will prompt specific answers with cogent explanations that can be voted on using criteria other than personal preference.

T. Smit

12:58

looking at a few of those questions, woulf posting a build and asking "I'm trying to optimize this character for X and Y; is there anything I could add to it to make it more effective?" be okay?

Miniman

@T.Smit Probably!

nitsua60

15:00

hey everybody =)

Terriblefan

15:22

@nitsua60 Chello.

I came here to complain about Wizards of the Coast. Would you like to join me?

nitsua60

You will not likely find much objection to reasonable complaints =)
What's bugging you today?

Terriblefan

The plethora of books, with higher prices than 3.5. Which, it was my understanding, is specifically against the stated goals of the new version.

Yes. 5e, with its many books, also has them at higher prices than 3.5e

And book bloat was a stated issue with 3.5e

nitsua60

So there's (5e) PHB, MM, DMG, SCAG, and now Volo's guide, right? (Though I feel like I might be missing one?)

[disclosure: I've only played 3.x once or twice]

Is that more than 3.5 had? (I've just got the 3.5 PHB and DMG)

And they're (basically) $50 a pop. What were 3.x books like?

Miniman

@nitsua60 Well, 3.5 had over 100, so in a word, no.

In several words, not even close.

Mathematically, 2 orders of magnitude lower.

nitsua60

@Miniman were those WotC publications, or is that counting 3rd-party?

Terriblefan

15:36

@nitsua60 There's a lot more of them on the Wizard site.

Miniman

@nitsua60 Just WotC. I don't even want to think about 3rd party.

Terriblefan

Something along the lines of 20 right now, which is consistent with the 3.5 treatment.

Miniman

@Terriblefan Do you mean the adventure modules?

nitsua60

@Miniman (I'd have said 1.5 orders lower, but what's half-an-order-of-magnitude between friends?)

Terriblefan

@Miniman And other sources, IE the abyss book.

Miniman

15:37

@Terriblefan That's an adventure module.

Unless there's an "abyss book" I don't know about, of course.

nitsua60

Ahh... yes. There are five hardcovers (Hoard of the Dragon Queen, Rise of Tiamat, Princes of the Apocalypse, Out of the Abyss, and Storm King's Thunder) which are WotC-produced adventures.

But I imagine it'd be impossible on wizards site to figure out what's what, given their superb organization =)

Miniman

@nitsua60 Sadly, that's fair.

@nitsua60 Curse of Strahd, too.

So, 11.

But counting adventure modules as sourcebooks is a little ingenuous for comparison purposes.

nitsua60

@Miniman Except when they put player options into them... =\

I know they're available in the free downloads, but tell me how somebody's supposed to find those unless they already know about them!?

Miniman

@nitsua60 As far as I'm aware, the only 1 in which that happened was PotA, and they released those in a free online supplement first.

It was originally planned to be a book, but got cancelled.

nitsua60

Backgrounds in CoS, I believe.

Miniman

15:42

@nitsua60 I'm pretty sure that's background.

nitsua60

Nevertheless, it's hard to imagine a company making it harder to understand their product line, if following only that company's presentation of it.

@Miniman (you mean 'singular'?)

Miniman

@nitsua60 Yep.

But yeah, the kind of proliferation 3.5 saw just isn't happening right now. This is, in fact, the first time I've heard anyone complain there are too many books. I've heard a ton of complaints that there aren't enough, though.

nitsua60

Gotcha. (A buddy's been holding my CoS since the week after it dropped, which is why I forget it at times.)

@Miniman Back when the list was PHB, MM, DMG, SCAG, I'd complain that there was one book too many =|

That book's seriously underwhelming, to me.

Miniman

@nitsua60 The DMG?

nitsua60

no, SCAG.

Miniman

15:46

@nitsua60 In fairness, I've been given to understand that AD&D was in the general vicinity of 3.5 for numbers of books.

nitsua60

I'd have preferred if it they dropped the player stuff and just called it a $25 Realms Setting Supplement.

Miniman

@nitsua60 I can see both ways on that.

nitsua60

@Miniman I don't remember hundreds. Dozens, certainly. I had probably 2 dozen.

@Miniman It boils down to, what, two archetypes, a domain, and a half-dozen spells or something? And a bunch of "oh, you want to play a blah-blah? Well, just play a [phb option] and call it a blah-blah."

Miniman

@nitsua60 Wikipedia lists 92 (by my count), but I'm not in a position to judge how much they are sourcebooks as such.

nitsua60

The thing about the 2e line of books is... take something like "the Celts." Nowadays it'd be stupid to produce a book like that, cause... Wikipedia.

Terriblefan

15:50

$50 is a ridiculous price for a book that doesn't even give new gameplay options.

nitsua60

But back then it was a miracle to have that, rather than your local public library's shelf of a dozen books of medieval history that you'd have had to pore over to cull out the thirty pages' info you want for a game.

@Terriblefan Which one(s) are you thinking of?

@Miniman That said, a good half of that list I wasn't even really aware of... nineteen more books of spells seems unnecessary =)

Miniman

@nitsua60 2 new subraces, 1 already-published subrace, variant half-elves and tieflings, 11 new class archetypes plus extra totem barbarian options, 4 spells, 12 backgrounds. But I take your point.

nitsua60

@Miniman A book or three per setting, though? DL, RL, SJ, AQ were popular.

Terriblefan

All the adventure modules, for a start

nitsua60

@Miniman IIRC, aren't half those archetypes and totems just flavor? Nothing mechanical?

Miniman

15:52

@Terriblefan Those serve a very different purpose.

Terriblefan

@Miniman They serve less of a purpose. They give prefab adventures that don't expand gameplay.

Miniman

@nitsua60 Please. Who do you think I am? I couldn't care less about "Yes you can call this type of Druid this thing from the PHB".

nitsua60

@Terriblefan Those are 'campaign-in-a-box' publications. I, for one, am happier having them not contain any player options. That way I don't have to chase down little drips and drabs across lots of books.

@Miniman You had me at "I couldn't care less about... this... bard." =)

Miniman

@Terriblefan Ok, you hate premade adventures. But there are a lot of people who don't. So far, I've run 2 premades, and they've given me far more value than the DMG.

nitsua60

@Miniman I'll second that.

Miniman

15:54

@nitsua60 :P

Terriblefan

@Miniman That's good, because they cost more than the DMG and the PHB.

Miniman

@Terriblefan They didn't cost me more - where are you buying them from?

nitsua60

So are you saying (@Miniman) that the count you gave is a count of actual mechanically-distinct new player options?

Terriblefan

WotC link above.

Miniman

@nitsua60 Yep.

nitsua60

15:56

Ahh.... Okay, it's not as bad as I recalled. (Same guy who has my CoS has my SCAG =| )

Terriblefan

I've yet to buy anything for this edition. A bookcase full of beloved-but-painfully-bought 3.5 books made the point clear that you should only buy what you want. And until Swords Coast, that was nothing.

Miniman

@Terriblefan The adventures all cost $49.95, the exact same as the PHB and DMG. Except RoT, which costs less.

@Terriblefan So, if you haven't bought anything, what exactly are you complaining about?

nitsua60

@Miniman I think 90% of my DMG's use has been quoting p.237 on skill checks here, and arguing about bags of holding here (which I've never seen in the wild).

Miniman

It's not like you can say you've wasted money or anything.

@nitsua60 I'd pump mine up to 95%, but yeah.

Terriblefan

@Miniman The marginal cost of buying something.

nitsua60

15:57

@Miniman To be fair, I'd account for HotSQ+RoT together if making that comparison.

Terriblefan

@Miniman That's a losing argument if I've ever heard one.

nitsua60

@Terriblefan Are you looking to play a bunch or run games or both?

Terriblefan

Double the cost of gas/cars/anything: it's not like you've bought them yet.

@nitsua60 Both.

nitsua60

@Terriblefan (Nobody's having an argument, best I know. We're trying to understand your complaint.)

Miniman

@Terriblefan Right, and if they were double the cost, I wouldn't buy them. I'd catch the bus.

Terriblefan

15:59

@Miniman And at $50, they're not quite double the 3.5 standard of $35. But close.

nitsua60

I'd suggest a paper copy of the PHB, DM's basic rules (free download), and MM, then. But that's my 0.02.

OTOH, my son's going on playing a year now off the $20 Starter Set.

Miniman

@Terriblefan So, to check that I've understood you correctly, your complaint is that there's a bunch of books produced for a purpose you have no interest in, and you feel that they're overpriced?

To go back to the car metaphor, this is like complaining about the price of diesel while driving around on unleaded.

nitsua60

Is there also a complaint that it's impossible to tell what one "should" buy and what not?

Miniman

@nitsua60 See, that would make a lot more sense.

Terriblefan

@nitsua60 There is. Some of those modules aren't labeled as such.

nitsua60

16:04

Hell, I know what I'm looking for, by filename, and can't reliably find it at wizards.com.

Terriblefan

Do I want Demogorgon in a campaign? Of course I do!

Do I know which book, if any, has him? No.

I know one has a picture of him on it, but...

nitsua60

@Terriblefan I could fax you the page out of my 1e Deities and Demigods =)

Terriblefan

@nitsua60 If I had a fax machine, I would jump on it. I love the old stuff.

And if I don't have a way to kill a god by the end of 5e, it's a failed edition.

nitsua60

@Terriblefan Actually, I might have to rescind that offer. I tried faxing @BESW a cookie last night during our DW session, and I fear I might have clogged up one of the transpacific communication cables. (Sorry, Indonesia. I hope you're internet's back soon!)

kviiri

That's sort of the reason I dislike DnD... there's way too much stuff for my tastes.

Less is more.

nitsua60

16:11

Dammit miniman! 6 sec ahead of me! =)

(also, +1 for posting my answer before me)

Terriblefan

@nitsua60 See, you should switch to the internet. Its tubes are broader. You might call it.. broad band. ba dum tiss

Miniman

@nitsua60 That happened to me earlier today with the undead warlock :P It's always a little sad.

kviiri

@Terriblefan Its tubes are broader and it's tubas louder.

Terriblefan

@kviiri I like options. And I feel like I don't get a lot of those in 5e. More than 4e, to be sure, but...

nitsua60

Where are you located, btw, @Terriblefan?

Miniman

16:14

@Terriblefan When we started this conversation, weren't you complaining about there being too many books?

kviiri

@Terriblefan It's not the options I dislike, it's the amount of stuff.

Miniman

Also, more than 4e? What?

nitsua60

I'm wondering if we can get message-initiative going in one direction (kviiri, me, you, miniman, kviiri, me, you...) and force electrons to spin faster and faster and faster each time they circumnavigate the globe. (That's how the internet works, right?)

Miniman

For interest's sake, 60 sourcebooks in 4e.

kviiri

@Terriblefan I mean, compare to Dungeon World, for instance. Say I want to run the same encounter to two different parties I'm mastering, one DnD and one Dungeon World. I have this vision of a three-headed dragon-like beast, with each head attacking using a different element to attack and some rudimentary mind-control powers or something.

Miniman

16:16

Not quite 3.5 levels, but still takes in a lot of content, especially considering that they kept fluff to a minimum.

kviiri

@Terriblefan In DnD, I'd start by browsing through the sourcebooks to see if there's some monster that matches that (there probably is, because DnD has everything especially pertaining to dragons and classical elements). Then I see if it matches my party level, and consider up/down-leveling it to make it a better fit. And install some custom moves of my own to it if it lacks some power I pictured it as having, for example the mind control.

@Terriblefan In the worst case I'd have to create the whole creature from scratch. There's good instructions and all but still... ti's a lot of work.

nitsua60

I can see a reasonable argument, though, that the publisher is (proportionately) putting out more pages-per-thing-I-want than previously. I mean, we've already established that over half the titles provide no options that @Terriblefan is looking for.

Terriblefan

@nitsua60 West coast.

kviiri

@Terriblefan Whereas with other systems with less stuff (like Dungeon World) I have the exact same option to create the encounter, but I'm less restricted in terms of balance, leveling, browsing through the existing material for matches. Saves a lot of work.

Terriblefan

@Miniman Too many books, too little options, too high a price.

nitsua60

16:19

@Terriblefan (this just might work...!)

Miniman

@Terriblefan So why play 5e, then?

kviiri

Of course the resulting experience tends to differ. It's hard to make a tactical combat game like DnD without paying attention to the balance.

Terriblefan

@Miniman 4e was an MMO on paper. Far too rigid.

kviiri

I think it was a reasonably well executed MMO on paper, but I see what you mean.

(meaning, if I liked MMOs on paper, I'd like DnD 4e)

Miniman

@Terriblefan I went through an MMO phase a while back, and I can say with some certainty that 4e bears little resemblance to them. If you mean that it was a tactical combat game, that's perfectly fair.

Terriblefan

16:22

@Miniman I like D&D. I like tie ins to book series that I read. I know that 3.5 was a great life simulator, when followed by the book. I want to like 5e as a result.

@Miniman Replace rounds with 6 seconds and allow concurrency. MMO.

Miniman

@Terriblefan It's 2am here, and I just woke my housemate. "3.5 was a great life simulator"? Oh, man. But anyway, you want to like 5e, but you don't, so...time to move on with your life?

kviiri

@Terriblefan Except no one makes lewd suggestions about your mother or spams bad memes. Well, depends on your table.

We have especially the latter.

RollingFeles

Bad news for Roll20 users: no more soundcloud jukebox.

Terriblefan

@Miniman The rules can't account for your unrealistic play. They work properly by the book, which is to say a person with a basic stat allotment (10s and 12s, tops) will experience roughly the same difficulty in performing tasks as a normal human in real life.

Miniman

@Terriblefan The core activities of MMOs are noticeably absent. No grinding, no fetch quests, no "kill X number of enemies". What aspects of MMOs are you seeing here?

Terriblefan

16:26

@kviiri Both of those things take place at my table and I would have it no other way.

kviiri

@Terriblefan Cool :)

Terriblefan

@RollingFeles Didn't get it working before, anyway.

Miniman

@Terriblefan Seriously? I feel like I'm being trolled right now.

kviiri

@Miniman I felt DnD was really grindy when I played it, to be honest.

Miniman

@kviiri That's not an artefact of the rules, though. That's a product of the campaigns you played, whether premade or homemade.

Terriblefan

16:27

@Miniman The fighting, which is the majority of interaction in a standard D&D campaign. And all of those quest triggers are present in premade campaigns -- it's just "kill all the demon rats in my cellar", instead of "kill 5 demon rats in my cellar".

RollingFeles

I support @Miniman's statement: it's not the system, but campaign.

Miniman

@Terriblefan If your DM gave you quests like "kill all the demon rats in my cellar", that's not the fault of the system.

kviiri

@Miniman I think the rules do play some part in that. You get slow, incremental upgrades every level, and take many, many dozens of hours of gameplay to reach the higher levels. What is that if not grinding?

Terriblefan

@Miniman Yes, seriously.

RollingFeles

I never felt anything resembling MMO/ videogame in 5e.

Miniman

16:29

@Terriblefan Also, tactical grid-based combat? Not much like the fighting in MMOs.

Terriblefan

@Miniman If you aren't being asked to kill all the demon rats in a cellar, you aren't living the RPG dream.

@RollingFeles It was regarding 4e.

Miniman

@Terriblefan I don't know what you're trying to say here. Are you suggesting that I missed out on the true RPG experience by not having MMO-like play?

Terriblefan

@Miniman Math done without your knowledge is still done.

nitsua60

@Terriblefan Not all people play the same style of game, and we respect a plurality of gamestyles around here.

Terriblefan

@Miniman I'm saying it's a trope. It was exaggeration for foolishness' sake.

RollingFeles

16:30

@Terriblefan I haven't played, still I can't imagine that 4e system will bind you to only one playstyle.

kviiri

@RollingFeles Well it sort of depends what you consider to be a part of the system.

nitsua60

(I find it interesting we're playing a game where it can be a question "well, do you consider <this> to even be part of the system?")

kviiri

That's pretty common with RPGs, isn't it? Stuff gets resolved with rule zero.

nitsua60

The way I learned, stuff gets resolved by my older brother taking his books and telling us we can't play anymore =|

Terriblefan

Generally, I find a game where you can say "I throw this vat of oil at him" to be preferable to "Maneuver: Vat toss. Once per encounter."

@nitsua60 A fine social lesson!

Vat toss! 5 minute cooldown. Does ATTACKPWR*125%/2 - ATKPWR*150% damage.

kviiri

16:36

@Terriblefan In that case, it sounds like DnD isn't really the best fit for your purposes. What other systems have you tried?

Terriblefan

Attacks in a cone, which means internally it's a grid and some 3d calculus is taking place to see if it hits.

kviiri

I think Dungeon World is a quite promising candidate for replicating the DnD jolly adventuring romp atmosphere, but it requires a different sort of mindset from the GM.

Terriblefan

@kviiri The example was from 3.5. Setting grounds for how things work in general lets you make things work on the fly. Limiting interactions doesn't.

5e has some of that DNA.

nitsua60

Gotta run--nice to meet you, terrible.

Terriblefan

@nitsua60 And you, nitsua. See you next comment chain! (I'm Axelrod on rpg)

kviiri

16:38

@Terriblefan I see what you mean. Though I prefer resolving stuff more through common sense than rulebook rummaging myself :)

Now that I mentioned Dungeon World, important announcement: Apocalypse World 2e PDFs are released! \o/

/me does the Snoopy dance

@Terriblefan I recommend giving Dungeon World a shot. And if you're not too picky about genre, its older cousin Apocalypse World. It was a really different, pleasing RPG experience for me.

Terriblefan

@kviiri I will look into it!

kviiri

@Terriblefan apocalypse-world.com/ApocalypseWorldBasicRefbook2ndEd.pdf this is the free part of the 2nd edition. Playbooks (some rules + character sheets) with move forms. I think the first edition is freely accessible somewhere, it's not too dramatically different.

Everything still revolves around the same roll 2d6 + bonus, with bonus being the character's relevant stat or money spent or something.

Terriblefan

Ok, cool.

kviiri

So, what's up?

Terriblefan

Work. The usual.

kviiri

16:58

I see. I'm procrastinating on some programming assignments myself.

Terriblefan

What language?

kviiri

Python, but it's not the language I'm working on. Working on the distributed systems course, trying to build a distributed timing system.

Terriblefan

Ah. That's always an issue.

kviiri

I'm not too good with Python. I use it for medium-sized scripting, and know the basics well enough. But I never use it frequently enough to actually remember the important stuff next time or write idiomatic code.

Also, this is the first time I'm using network programming on Python.

Terriblefan

I was looking at it as an application language before using it for scripting. I'm not very good, either, but it seems extensible enough.

I'm sure there's a library somewhere that could help you with it.

kviiri

17:03

Yeah, using socket and selectors libraries ATM.

Python has the advantage of eliciting absolutely zero reaction from me. I don't like it, I don't hate it. It just gets written.

So it's lke eight points out of ten as far as programming goes!

Terriblefan

What's on the bottom, on your list?

Malbolge?

kviiri

Java web dev.

Terriblefan

Haha agreeable

kviiri

17:18

A word of warning about AW: it's meant to be played in a very different manner from DnD. Not a quest for power, levels or saving the world. Possibly not even a quest at all. Just seeing how these guys (the PCs) handle themselves in a world that has gone through some serious damage.

Some characters are rather poor for adventuring, and may be partially tied to some relatively static fixtures. Like the Maestro'd, who runs a social establishment - they're most powerful and fun near their bar/brothel/club/restaurant/disco/whatever.

So for a more DnD-ey feel, try Dungeon World.

Terriblefan

Huh

kviiri

My current character is a Maestro'd, who runs a casino. It's sorta cool, basically they're less reliant on the barter economy than other PCs but have to deal with the NPCs who'd like in on the establishment. Or see it burn. Or extort it, or something equally vile.

Terriblefan

17:36

So what's the end goal? These characters seem tied to their occupational regions more than anything.

kviiri

@Terriblefan Mainly to survive the rough life of the Apocalypse World. Anything beyond that is up to the player. Reconstructing the golden era, taking down a particularly dangerous warlord, anything like that.

Terriblefan

@kviiri Ahh, ok.

kviiri

There's no mechanical progression in the DnD vein - characters don't grow substantially more powerful as they advance (but will have more options).

Terriblefan

I see.

kviiri

It also means there's no problem with, say, a PC dying, because a new character created in 15 mins is roughly as powerful as the one that preceded it. Likely with less cool stuff, but still capable of doing stuff and making an impact.

Terriblefan

17:46

Well that's nice, given the frequency of wipes in many people's tabletop experiences.

kviiri

AW also has relatively vulnerable PCs, who have six harm points. That means an unarmored character can take two hits from an assault rifle before their life becomes untenable. Unarmored NPCs tend to go down from one shot, unless they're particularly badass.

PCs get the first hit for free, shamelessly.

The third harm suffered won't heal on itself, the fourth and further will get worse with time without treatment.

Absolutely brutal!

Terriblefan

Weird, but sensible.

kviiri

Enough talk of AW already, though :P I absolutely love the system and will spout its mechanics at the slightest provocation.

Terriblefan

Well like I said, I'll look into it (probably the DW version). Thanks for humoring me.

kviiri

I think the DW version is inferior, because it incorporates some stuff I don't particularly care about in DnD. But it's definitely worth a look.

BESW

21:25

@Terriblefan If you like the d20 System engine, 13th-age might be nice for you as a kind of midway point between D&D 3.5 and systems like Dungeon World.

Terriblefan

@BESW I will look at that, as well! Thanks!

BESW

My own group's moved away from D&D-like stories as well as D&D-like systems, and for the last few years fate-core has been our primary gaming tool.

Fate is very much a game like you describe.

BESW

21:39

**[Timely RPGery](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nKltjD1HJ954pS3QZZL-E_ckNaKEeedxMKn7XwdFiio/edit?usp=sharing "Click for full source doc; please suggest items to pin!"):**
[BoH](https://bundleofholding.com "Buy RPGs cheap in bulk, support charities & indie designers!");
[prompt](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qqW6VMGt0PIoG_cNlCv0wIa0QAd9vdQm1vj7Ql1XRAs "Get an Absolute Tabletop RPG supplement for writing 200+ words!");
[playtest](http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/788/follow-needs-playtesters/ "Help playtest Ben Robbins' new game!");

kviiri

21:55

@BESW Apocalypse World 2nd edition is out and available for purchase, can you add that to the Timely RPGery? Want a purchase link or just the homesite?

BESW

@kviiri Homesite, please.

kviiri

@BESW apocalypse-world.com

BESW

**[Timely RPGery](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nKltjD1HJ954pS3QZZL-E_ckNaKEeedxMKn7XwdFiio/edit?usp=sharing "Click for full source doc; please suggest items to pin!"):**
[BoH](https://bundleofholding.com "Buy RPGs cheap in bulk, support charities & indie designers!");
[AW 2e](http://apocalypse-world.com/ "Apocalypse World's second edition is now available.");
[prompt](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qqW6VMGt0PIoG_cNlCv0wIa0QAd9vdQm1vj7Ql1XRAs "Get an Absolute Tabletop RPG supplement for writing 200+ words! Sept 30");

Bam.

kviiri

22:15

Yay!

Anaphory

@Terriblefan There must be. It's python.

At some point I need to sit down and read AW2E. Maybe I can wait until I get an actual physical book of that game.

kviiri

22:35

The book is pretty similar to 1e book. Most of the content is exactly the same.

BESW

What is the major difference between editions?

The Kickstarter says, "You'll see a couple of obvious, big changes—streamlined Hx, a whole new set of battle moves, a threat map instead of fronts."

Shalvenay

22:56

hey there @BESW

BESW

[wave]

Shalvenay

23:10

so yeah -- ruminating on last night, I do think I need to bring Discern Realities into play more

my question is -- how do I bound it to avoid putting Nitsua on his heels too far?

or is it sort of a self-limiting sort of thing?

BESW

It's a matter of what the narrative and the social contract consider reasonable.

For the social contract, that's just gonna be about the group having open lines of communication and practicing using them.

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