TRPG General Chat

BESW

00:09

@trogdor, @doppelgreener I've put a link in the Skype chat. It's a GDocs page for writing up our Sleuths' relationships, and I've also put the Sleuths at the bottom of the page.

Shalvenay

@Emrakul how're things going?

user61230

00:34

@Shalvenay Pretty good! Election season on Puzzling. Busy with life. How bout you?

Shalvenay

@Emrakul alright here, up to a whopping 6k on DIY with two tag badgers

user61230

@Shalvenay Hard site to get rep on, too. 'Grats!

Shalvenay

@Emrakul also, giving a retired looie EVA trainer/consultant a shot in Classic Traveler

user61230

Oh man, sounds like it could be a good game.

Shalvenay

@Emrakul yah -- the voterbase is quite small

user61230

00:36

Yeah. You liking the site?

user61230

How old is it?

Shalvenay

@Emrakul the problems are sometimes interesting, but the question quality is a struggle due to the high user turnover

@Emrakul oh, it's been around for a while now

user61230

Ah, yeah, I know that bind. If you guys pick up some dedicated users, it'll fix itself, in time, hopefully.

Shalvenay

@Emrakul we have some dedicated users already, but not enough to deal with the user turnover situation, which is rather extreme

Miniman

@Emrakul It's interesting watching that election - the differences between it and the one we had here recently are quite marked.

Or the original RPG.SE election, actually.

user61230

00:41

@Miniman How do you mean? I'm curious!

user61230

@Shalvenay Huh. And I take it a ton of new users?

Miniman

@Emrakul Well, both of our elections have involved a small handful of high-rep users, and their nominations all sound pretty similar. Yours has a bigger, very mixed group, giving very different reasons in their pitches.

Shalvenay

@Emrakul yes

user61230

@Miniman That's true. It's a very odd rep spread, all things considered. I like it, though. It's been undramatic, which is a good sign.

BESW

Yey for no dramas.

Miniman

00:46

But drama shows that people really care!

Shalvenay

@Emrakul getting people to post good photos can be a challenge as well, especially with some of the stickier electrical wickets I wade into

user61230

@Shalvenay Oh, huh. That never occurred to me. Are photos required on DIY?

user61230

@Miniman Stabs you to show I care.

Miniman

@Emrakul [insert super-dramatic death scene here.]

user61230

@Miniman STEALS ALL YOUR DIAMONDS, MWAHAHA.

Miniman

00:51

@Emrakul Wait, what diamonds?

DuckTapeAl

Did you know: Human beings are 4% diamond.

==*

Miniman

Whoa.

Luckily for me

user61230

@Miniman Opens the bag. Looks down. Looks up, directly at you. Narrows eyes. Where are the diamonds, Miniman. Where are the diamonds!?

Miniman

<- this guy ain't human.

DuckTapeAl

I THINK YOU WILL FIND WE ARE ALL DEFINITELY HUMAN HERE

HA

Shalvenay

00:53

@DuckTapeAl hey there

Miniman

Although it's possible killing me would give you magical powers, actually.

DuckTapeAl

HELLO HUMAN

I MEAN

FELLOW HUMAN

Miniman

@DuckTapeAl If you really wanted to pass as human, fixing your avatar would've been a good start :P

DuckTapeAl

Did you know #2: Trying to cram 300 pages of RPG manual in one night is difficult.

Well, I'm not a robot, that'd be ridiculous.

Miniman

@DuckTapeAl I did know that, actually! What RPG?

DuckTapeAl

00:54

Nor am I an empty suit of armour, animated with blood alchemy.

AND I'M DEFINITELY NOT A ZOGNOID

Miniman

@DuckTapeAl Or duct tape, as the case may be.

DuckTapeAl

Fate. I'm running a game, and our first non-character creation session is tomorrow.

user61230

Oh!

user61230

Suggestion: skim, then study the cheat sheet.

DuckTapeAl

I've read most of it before, but I need to refresh myself on how the hell combat works.

And like, how to help my players make stunts.

We spent like two hours on making aspects last time, mainly getting everyone used to the idea of how story-driven Fate is.

No one in the group has played an RPG that isn't D&D or Battletech.

Miniman

00:57

@DuckTapeAl Well, except you.

DuckTapeAl

Well, I guess we had that one Harry Potter Savage Worlds game, but that felt more like D&D than anything.

user61230

That makes sense. Easing people into story RP is solid.

DuckTapeAl

The only system I've played that isn't D&D or Savage Worlds is GURPS, which also isn't really built for storytelling.

*aside from one-shots

Miniman

@DuckTapeAl Ah, important caveat.

user61230

I'm firmly of the opinion that GURPS is built for reading rulebooks.

DuckTapeAl

00:59

I ran a few WHAT one-shots years ago, and I ran that one DoG game, and probably some other sundry things.

Adeptus

@BESW That's a funny looking gnome. All covered in feathers. And who are the little people next to him?

DuckTapeAl

@Emrakul A friend of mine calls GURPS "a scripting language for world-building".

But I think you're mostly right as well.

Miniman

@Adeptus Just because he's wearing pink feathers, doesn't mean you can call him funny looking. He's just flamboyant.

Adeptus

@Miniman Fair enough. I didn't mean to be disparaging to gnomish fashion statements.

user61230

@DuckTapeAl Yeah, I can see that, too.

DuckTapeAl

01:02

The 4th edition spell book in particular makes my game design sense cry.

Shalvenay

@DuckTapeAl I can see where that'd be useful ;)

user61230

I don't think I ever read enough to say, honestly.

DuckTapeAl

Like, there's a spell that uses the normal spend-mana-and-roll-to-succeed spell system that can only be used to cut a willing target's hair.

So in order you effectively cut someone's hair using that spell, you need to either spend 1 character point and be an amazing arcane genius otherwise, or spend like, 8 character points to get your skill to a reasonable level.

Spending 1 CP is way, way too much to get the ability to magically cut someone's hair.

Basically, the way that spells are written is ridiculously unbalanced to the point of hilarity.

Miniman

@DuckTapeAl Wow, what a ridiculous and unique problem to have! Silly GURPS.

DuckTapeAl

#snark

The difference here is that for the same number of points and general character investment, you can get either "give someone a decent haircut" or "kill basically anyone", both at melee range.

Miniman

01:11

@DuckTapeAl Depending on your campaign, those might be eq- I can't even finish that sentence.

DuckTapeAl

...oh my god. I thought I was being glib and exaggerating for effect, but it turns out that that statement was basically correct. In order to get all the prereqs for Haircut, you need 6 points of other spells. For Deathtouch, it's 7.

Miniman

@DuckTapeAl Ah, but would it have been 7 if you hadn't said anything?

DuckTapeAl

I don't think I follow.

Miniman

@DuckTapeAl I was attempting to imply that by making the joke you altered reality to match.

DuckTapeAl

oic

Miniman

01:18

[handwaves] Quantum!

DuckTapeAl

Did you know #3: Because of quantum physics, [you can ignore the rest of this sentence, because nothing of value can be written on the internet when the sentence starts with a reference to quantum physics.]

Miniman

@DuckTapeAl I DID know that!

DuckTapeAl

==*

BESW

01:49

Our thief is now dangling from the ceiling by her feet while the rest of the party, as hummingbirds, cling to her ears. #dnd

Tweeted by UrsulaV on July 19, 2016 at 1:03 AM

Thief: "I could have hummingbird earrings!" Gnoll (polymorphed): "I don't wanna be an accessory..." #dnd

Tweeted by UrsulaV on July 19, 2016 at 1:25 AM

Miniman

Hummingbird familiars give initiative bonuses, right?

user61230

02:11

Man, I played the best game of Fiasco a couple days ago.

Shalvenay

02:31

@Emrakul hoping the Classic Traveller thing works out OK, at least long enough for me to get a feel for the system

(I just don't understand why anyone'd live on a planet with a Law Level of B-F though!)

Joel Harmon

@Miniman about your Dragonfire Inspiration archer: Are you sure race is so easy? I recall a feat that gives the dragonblood subtype.

but damned if I can find it

Miniman

@JoelHarmon Yep, there is one - Draconic Heritage. It also lets you choose the damage type for things like Dragonfire Inspiration.

Wait, that's the Sorcerer only one. I'm thinking of Dragontouched (I think that's what it's called).

Joel Harmon

maybe I misunderstand your intended build, but that should open up racial options quite wide. Your question implies it's much narrower, and I'm a bit confused.

both of those sound reasonable

close enough for chat, anyway

Miniman

@JoelHarmon It's not so much that my racial options are narrow as that I know what my options are when it comes to races.

Like feats, it's easy to see which ones are good, and there's lots of potential options.

Joel Harmon

fair enough

Miniman

02:39

Classes are much harder, because there just don't seem to be many archery-focused classes.

Joel Harmon

that's true

Your sentence "Similarly for race, the need for dragonblood makes it pretty easy to pick." makes me think you're picking a race that's inherently dragonblooded, and I'm not sure how I can read that any other way. Figured I'd mention the feat option, but it's not substantial enough for an answer.

other than that, I think you covered all the bases on archery focus; good luck.

Miniman

@JoelHarmon That's because if I do it the way that needs a feat, I'll probably do it with human or strongheart halfling, since I'm going to be over-stretched on feats as it is.

@JoelHarmon Thanks! I'm really hoping I've missed something hidden away in an Eberron sourcebook or somewhere.

Joel Harmon

My 3.5-fu is fading into 5e, DW, and Fate. It was never super strong to begin with, though.

Miniman

@JoelHarmon Considering the complexity and breadth of stuff that can be covered by 3.5-fu, it probably was super strong! There's just an awful lot of Supermans out there, if you see what I mean.

Joel Harmon

well, I can confidently say that I was in the top 1% worldwide for d&d skills...

thumbing through CW: I'm not sure Kensai will help you here

Miniman

02:49

@JoelHarmon Actually, that's a good point - there's an awful lot of good weapon enchantments for archery, so kensai could definitely be worth a thought.

Joel Harmon

I think I still have my friend's Ebberon around here somewhere, but it's definitely not within arm's reach.

Miniman

@JoelHarmon I gotta go do some actual work :( but thanks for the suggestions!

Joel Harmon

sure; bye

side note for chat: I noticed this meta question about my question, and I'm not sure whether it's worth me interjecting. All I can say is the other answers are spot on, and that I framed it to DW only because I'm not familiar with any other PbtA games.

nitsua60

@SevenSidedDie Good to hear that it's not annoying to deal with.

trogdor

@BESW ok, cool, sorry about that my internet was out for a few hours

nitsua60

02:59

@DuckTapeAl Not just quantum. Because E=mc^2, [you can ignore these sentences, too.] Now it's just a matter of getting the two reconciled!

@Shalvenay Hard to get an exit visa =)

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 probably. :P

@nitsua60 did you get to read further on the CSAC btw?

nitsua60

@Shalvenay nope. Ran DW tonight. Another excellent session, made even more excellent by the excellent advice and guidance streaming in from @JoelHarmon, @Anaphory, @Adeptus, @trogdor, @SevenSidedDie, and @BESW. Thanks, all.

trogdor

no problem

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 cool.

trogdor

even though my advice only came from Monster of the Week experience XD

nitsua60

03:15

Man, people really love their bags of holding around here, eh? I've got to admit, I've never actually seen one in the wild.

Joel Harmon

03:26

you're welcome, @nitsua60

nitsua60

another question coming down the pike, if you're going to be around for five minutes =)
[typing it up now]

Joel Harmon

I still feel like there's a way for me to usefully contribute to that meta question, but I'm just not seeing it

(that is to say, I'll probably be around for a bit longer)

nitsua60

@JoelHarmon I think a one-line answer from you saying "I'd rather not." would very effectively end the discussion. But I don't know if you actually feel that way, or are ambivalent. Also, question's up.

Joel Harmon

03:52

hey @Reibello

Reibello

04:15

Greeting @JoelHarmon

nitsua60

12:27

@BESW 5 votes =)

BESW

I'll do all the feed adjustments in a big bunch after the star pin has had some time to take effect.

nitsua60

@BESW Cool =) I'm excited: I've never had a lasting impact on Chat before!

BESW

Well that's not true.

nitsua60

[blush]

Nzall

12:45

I wanted to quickly touch on a question I had to see if it's not too hypothetical

Basically, the question is "How can I minimize players avoiding conflict when using Milestone XP"?

Miniman

@Nzall It's not too hypothetical, but you're likely to cop some flak for asking it.

Nzall

or maybe that question itself might be a bit vague. Essentially, one of my concerns with Milestone XP is that some players sometimes have a tendency of taking the easy route

Like, if there's a choice between fighting or not fighting, those players tend to pick the not-fighting option

because all that matters is getting past the milestone

Miniman

@Nzall I understand what you're getting at pretty easily. Talking to a Lich is no more difficult than talking to a goblin, so why should one be worth orders of magnitude more?

A lot of people would object to the question itself on philosophical grounds (cf. our most popular question ever), but it's pretty clear what you're asking.

Nzall

Hell, I am a player like that myself in computer RPGs. if I can avoid conflict, I avoid it, to the point of mild save scumming to see if ther was an alternative option

Miniman

The thing about D&D though, is that if you're not fighting, you're not really playing D&D.

You're roleplaying, but the D&D game system is fundamentally about combat.

Nzall

12:51

@Miniman No, the D&D game system IMHO is about skill checks

something is in your way and you need to get past it

whether that's combat, dialogue, stealth or a puzzle is irrelevant

But I do agree that combat is the most well-built skill check of D&D

Miniman

The difference is, if it's dialogue, stealth, or a puzzle, that's one d20 roll. Or maybe a few if the DM is feeling fancy. Combat is likely to be half an hour of dice rolling.

Nzall

@Miniman The thing is not just about avoiding combat. it's about avoiding any chance that a skill check might fail, because it slows you down on the way to the milestone

Miniman

@Nzall Ah. So you're more worried about players bypassing challenges completely than about how they tackle those challenges?

Nzall

@Miniman yeah, like that

XP is the currency of an RPG, and there is a certain subset of players that just wants to hoard it

Miniman

You're going to need to be very careful how you draw this line in your question. Is using stealth to sneak past enemies bypassing the challenge, or completing the challenge?

Nzall

12:57

@Miniman Stealthing past the guards is fine

Miniman

@Nzall But finding a route that avoids them completely is not?

Nzall

@Miniman yeah, something like that

avoiding side objectives because they slow you down on the way to the milestone

just doing everything it takes to get past the milestone faster

Miniman

@Nzall That's a pretty fine distinction, and you're going to need to define it clearly in your question. I still think it's a good question that is definitely worth asking, but you are going to have to put some work into making sure people understand exatly what you're after.

@Nzall This might be a separate question, really.

Nzall

@Miniman I think the problem is not so much avoiding encounters on the way to milestones as how the milestones and encounters are defined

Because suppose your players want to infiltrate a castle. They can kill the guards, incapacitate the guards, distract them, sneak past them in the same hallway, or they can crawl up through the sewers or even approach from the air

All of those are ways to handle the "guards" encounter

the question is whether you want that to be a milestone, or whether the "convince the lord to release his prisoner" is the milestone

BESW

Mmm. This is also deeply rooted in the philosophy that the GM's role is to create obstacles in the path of the players' goals, and the players' role is to find the most efficient solutions to those obstacles so they can attain their goals.

Any group where the journey is the point will shatter the whole "milestone" concept.

Nzall

13:07

I'm just trying to figure out the best question to ask and how to ask it

BESW

Yeah, and that means clearly defining the playstyle you're asking the question for. Hrm.

Nzall

The hypothetical problem I want to solve is "players are going out of their way to avoid encounters so they get milestone XP quicker

and now I suddenly realize that this is more of a videogame RPG question, because in actual session-based RPG games, that just means your session is done faster

BESW

Mmm. Is it a problem you've faced in an RPG campaign, and if so what effect did it have that was undesirable?

Nzall

but it also means that your players have essentially avoided part of your work

Miniman

@Nzall So, going through the sewers to avoid the guards isn't avoiding the encounter with the guards? I'm starting to think I don't really understand where you're drawing the line.

Nzall

13:11

@BESW the problem is not so much in offline games, but I found that it often happens in online computer RPGS like World of Warcraft, where players at max level do their best to skip optional enemies because it doesn't give anything worth having

and I'm trying to translate that to offline RPGs

it might be better suited for gamedev though

BESW

Ah, so this is a problem you're anticipating but haven't encountered?

Nzall

yep

BESW

That does tend to make a question fit the Stack Exchange poorly.

Nzall

and it's a problem that I think a number of groups using milestone XP might have encountered or are struggling with

like, developers/game masters do their best to create engaging non-boss enemies, and then players do their best to avoid these because there's no good reward for doing them

For example, in a recent large-group encounter in World of Warcraft, there's a single large enemy with a lot of HP and annoying abilities with no meaningful reward that can be avoided by walking behind some pallisades, which means that nearly ever group does so

And it might also be a mismatch between the players and the GM in what style of game they want to play

BESW

Yes, but "is this a problem?" without even a system attached to it isn't going to get very far as a Stack question.

I dunno about gamedev, but from the tabletop RPG perspective it's really really hard to ask a theoretical question about something you think might be a problem for someone but haven't had happen to you.

We can talk about it in chat, but I don't see a mainsite question getting any traction.

Nzall

13:19

@BESW The advantage of Gamedev is that there is probably a popular game that has encountered this issue as well where ways can be defined to fix it

BESW

For RPG.SE you'd need to define a system, at the very least; whether and how it's a problem, and methods for dealing with it, are going to be uselessly broad otherwise.

Nzall

@BESW Isn't that why we got system-agnostic though?

for questions that don't have a system or that can apply to more than one system?

BESW

That tag is not a panacea.

Some questions require a particular system in order to be scoped for useful answers.

Adding the tag doesn't magically change that.

Nzall

@BESW And what makes the question I want to ask one of those?

because this isn't about mechanics beyond simple XP management from what I can tell

although I might be wrong with that, since I haven't played that many tabletops yet

Miniman

@Nzall A lot of systems have no concept of XP - that's a warning flag right there.

nitsua60

13:24

Or advancement

Nzall

@Miniman And player power?

BESW

28

Q: How to deal with questions that just don't understand the scope of the RPG landscape?

We've had several questions lately that we've been closing. What point-buy systems of magic (like psionics in 3e D&D) are there? , What are the main Creative Commons powered tabletop RPG out there?, How do the rules that govern a Cleric's Turn Undead ability vary among D&D editions? (before it wa...

The concept of milestones for XP is handled very differently even among RPGs which have anything like it.

Miniman

@Nzall The idea of "power" varies vastly in different systems.

nitsua60

@Nzall what's the game you're running right now? Are you the one who recently asked about a player scouting ahead to try to grab "extra" encounters and XP? (To which many people responded "use milestones," which I don't think is the only good suggestion out there.)

BESW

D&D, Fate, and Bubblegumshoe each have some kind of character advancement triggered by story progression. Whether and how what you're describing is a problem changes for each. Solutions on how to deal with it if necessary would be useless translated from one system to the next.

Nzall

13:27

@nitsua60 no, I'm the one who recently asked the hypothetical about a player character sleeping with their own sister

nitsua60

s/player/character?

BESW

@Nzall And the answer is the same: If it's not a problem you're facing, the Stack is going to ask for clarification you can't provide, and it'll get closed.

Nzall

@nitsua60 the player character. it was poorly thought out

nitsua60

@Nzall Gotcha. [whew: that's a level of social-dynamics I'm glad we don't have to get into =\ ]

@Nzall in any case, what games do you usually/have you usually played/run?

Nzall

@nitsua60 so far, my experience limits itself to a single game of the D&D 4e starter edition due to lack of a group, but if I ever find a group, I'd love to do D&D 5e

in all other respects, my RPG experience limits itself to computer RPGs and some board games that borrow RPG elements

nitsua60

13:33

I strongly suggest the early articles in AngryGM's "Let's Build an Angry Megadungeon" series would interest you: they're all about XP, encounters, critical paths and optionals, random/wandering encounters, what kind of player behavior and experiences they tend to incentivize and create, &c. &c. &c. He spends months laying groundwork/building skeleton before ever introducing a single, identifiable plot or setting element.

I've played almost no CRPGs. (Nothing since FF. 1, that is, for the NES.) However, my impression is that the vast majority of them overwhelmingly inherit their DNA from the D&D/PF tree. Is that a fair characterization, those of you with broad experience in both CRPG- and TTRPG-land?
If you've recently shed tens of thousands of lines on Wiz8 in another room, I'm looking at you =)

Nzall

@nitsua60 it depends. Many RPGs these days inherit elements from other genres, mainly combat styles

Miniman

28

Q: How to deal with questions that just don't understand the scope of the RPG landscape?

We've had several questions lately that we've been closing. What point-buy systems of magic (like psionics in 3e D&D) are there? , What are the main Creative Commons powered tabletop RPG out there?, How do the rules that govern a Cleric's Turn Undead ability vary among D&D editions? (before it wa...

discussion feature-request faq game-recommendation

Nzall

Besides the indie scene, which I'm not that familiar with, there aren't that many hardcore RPGs out there

Miniman

Except for CRPGs.

BESW

@nitsua60 Wiz8 is 15 years out of date, and rather odd even in its own time. But yes, there's definable cross-pollination between D&D-like tabletops and stat-advancing CRPGs.

Miniman

13:38

Seriously, there's probably about as much variation in CRPGs as there is in TTRPGs.

nitsua60

I suppose we're all suffering from a huge "vaguely-defined terms'" problem, too, right now. What the **** am I talking about "inheriting their DNA from the D&D/PF tree"?

Nzall

@Miniman yes, but many of them replace the core turn-base combat system that many RPGs have with something more involving, usually with direct control of the character or hotkey-based games

Miniman

@nitsua60 I think I have a pretty good idea what you mean by that, actually :P

Nzall

which obviously means that the core principle of turn-based combat doesn't apply that much anymore

You got games like Pillars of Eternity, or Divinity: Original Sin, or the recent Baldur's Gate remasters, that have turn-based combat

nitsua60

@Nzall I think the point that I'm drunkenly stumbling around is: if you're playing lots of games that even have dedicated-character control, classes, advancement in skills/powers/features, driven by an XP system, where a lot of XP comes from killing things... then you're already drawing some pretty-firm boundaries, perhaps without even knowing that there's much "there" on the other side.

[not actually drunk, just bad at expressing myself. Also: sitting, not stumbling]

BESW

13:43

For the purposes of this conversation, I'm focused on the idea that XP is for level-based character advancement, gained primarily through combat to the death but occasionally doled out for hitting story marks, and shared across a group of characters who advance at different paces. This is a concept which has been honed in a conversation between tabletop and computer RPGs for decades, but which many games in both mediums have also sought to subvert or reject.

Nzall

@BESW yes, that's it

and I recently read rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/84354/…, which mentioned Milestone XP

and that has made me think about the players swinging the complete opposite direction when using milestone XP

where they try to skip as much as possible because it doesn't give XP

like happens in World of Warcraft: players are skipping trash because it doesn't give player power

nitsua60

So what's the problem?

(In my D&D-formative years it was all about trying to avoid combat encouters, 'cause those things'll get you killed, man!)

Nzall

@nitsua60 the problem is that as a GM, you're crafting an engaging world with interesting characters and balanced encounters (or at least trying to craft a world like that)

only for your players to skip most of it

BESW

Is the problem wasted GM effort? Or a mechanic in a combat-focused game encouraging people to avoid comabt? or...?

Nzall

@BESW I think the problem is more that milestone XP makes encounters less interesting

nitsua60

13:48

@Nzall I think there are a lot of buried assumptions in that one, too. I, for one, don't make any attempt to balance encounters.

Nzall

which may lead to players trying to skip them because they're not rewarding

nitsua60

@Nzall combat encounters, or all encounters?

BESW

And I learnt long ago not to prep too much because--despite never using milestones--my players always did things I couldn't anticipate.

Nzall

@nitsua60 anything that would otherwise reward XP

I view encounter as wider than just combat

for example, skipping inconsequential fights, or ignoring dialogue

My main concern is that some players, at heart, are EXP addicts

and removing XP from encounters may lead to that kind of player trying to avoid everything you put in their path because it's easier

BESW

In a tabletop RPG, if a GM is crafting a careful series of encounters which the players don't care about, that's not a mechanical problem.

That's a mismatched playstyle, not unlike being dissatisfied with playing Halo as a stealth game.

nitsua60

13:52

I wonder if we've got the same mental model of "milestone XP" running.... if one of your milestones is "learn that the widget of frobbing was created by the ancient artificer Nosenra," then ignoring dialogue and skipping-over/trivailly searching ruins is going to be a suboptimal strategy.

Nzall

@nitsua60 yes, I think that might be the concern

BESW

Trying to solve a social problem (not everyone at the table has the same expectations for the game) with game mechanics is doomed to frustrate.

Nzall

I personally view milestones as advancing the story in some way

BESW

But yes, the specific nature of milestones is one reason you'd need to specify a system for an RPG.SE question to get any traction.

nitsua60

@BESW "Trying to Solve a Social Problem" is definitely a good name for the concept album that this room'll someday create Postal Service-style.

Nzall

13:54

The thing is that I'm not sure what exactly is advancing the story. Is "infiltrating the castle" a milestone?

Or is the milestone "resolve the conflict between the peasant and the baron"?

and that might be where my confusion is

BESW

In many D&D adventures, a milestone is "Kill this guy" or "Give the guy the thing." In Fate it's "the group feels it's reached satisfaction with part of the story." In Bubblegumshoe it's "succeed or fail definitively at your arc goal."

nitsua60

I'm absolutely loving DW's "did we learn something important about the world we're in during this session?" XP milestone.

Nzall

@BESW And THAT's why I'm so confused. I only have played D&D-inspired games so far that give XP for killing things and getting a step further in a quest

I had no idea other systems handled it in that way

BESW

@Nzall Hence talking about how there's a lot more out there, and it's easy to underestimate the scope of the medium.

Nzall

@BESW so let's say we limit it to D&D 5e

since system-agnostic doesn't work

BESW

13:58

Well, now we're back to the "This isn't a problem you're actually facing" difficulty.

nitsua60

@Nzall [pats porch swing] "back in my day XP was measured in gold coins. And you had to invent a spell to get them out of the dungeon. None of these bags-of-I'm-too-bad-at-math-to-track-encumbrance I keep hearing about!" [thumps cane] "Invent a spell, I said!" [aside] "What was the name of that spell...?"

BESW

I know you're used to asking theoretical questions without any experience behind them, but that really only works for mechanical stuff. As soon as you're asking for social engineering we need to know what the situation is you're facing--and if you're not facing one, we'll be asking for clarification you can't provide.

nitsua60

[tow-headed boy chimes in] "It's /Tenser's Floating Disc/, granddad, and you didn't invent it. Ernie did."

BESW

Because really, the answer to "My group doesn't care about the encounters I'm making" is simply, "Find out what they do care about and talk to them about how to meet your needs and theirs."

CRPGs can't have that kind of answer, but TTRPGs need them.

nitsua60

in Not a bar, but plays one on TV, Jun 9 at 1:40, by nitsua60

I can just hear @BESW's voice on the wind: "the group should create the game; the game cannot create the group..."

BESW

14:03

Even within a single system like D&D 5e, each group's playstyles will mean games play out very differently. 5e knows this better than 3.5 did, and deliberately accommodates it with lots of elbow room for personal taste.

nitsua60

@Nzall I really do think you might find, in particular, the first three articles in the megadungeon series interesting. (Note carefully the dates: they're listed on the page in newest-to-oldest order.) And this is the last I'll harp on that particular bit of advice.

Nzall

@BESW So essentially, my question doesn't really fit on RPG because it's a social problem, which always means "talk to your players".

My big problem is that I don't have anyone to play it with

nitsua60

Social problems are fine; social hypotheticals are really tough.

87

Q: Where can I find other RPG players?

I'd really like to learn how to play pen-and-paper RPGs. I know that it takes a few players to actually sit down and play, but I'm not at all sure where to find more gamers. How do I find existing groups to join? Or, are there any resources online that may help me find existing RPG groups or pl...

new-players social

BESW

It's very difficult to diagnose and prescribe for imaginary social problems.

Like I said earlier, we can talk here about whether that sort of thing is a problem we've encountered, and what we've done about it.

But for mainsite it's too areated.

I've personally had a lot of trouble with my prepared work going unused, but it's never been because of XP pressures.

It's usually because I tried to anticipate my players but they regularly think of much more awesome things to do than I ever can.

Now I prefer systems which accommodate that; like Fate, where on-the-fly mid-game prep is relatively easy and the players are invited to take part in designing the world and the story. If they roll to discover something I haven't any clue about, I can ask them to tell me what they find.

nitsua60

"Play to find out" =)

BESW

14:17

I'm kinda nervous about Bubblegumshoe actually, because it puts alot more pressure on the GM to have prep and secrets and know what's going on more than the players do.

Anaphory

In our Scion campaign, where we were Modern Gods, and allied with the Scions of the Internet, such as V, the Demigod of Trolling, we did encounter alot of alots.

BESW

Anaphory

Yes. That. Luckily, they were on our side.

Anaphory

16:22

Not alot seems to have happened while I went home from work and had dinner…

nitsua60

17:55

Let's help keep an eye on some back-and-forth editing that's simmering on mainsite. Maybe it's done, but maybe it's not =\

Anaphory

18:30

I just re-discovered, after 18 months, the strangest DW supplement, after having finally read the original work it references, which I finally finished reading 2 months ago, having tried and failed to read it ages ago.

Mala

@SevenSidedDie Are you around?

Joel Harmon

23:01

@Anaphory what supplement are you referring to?

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