TRPG General Chat

doppelgreener

03:06

The new Fate World of Adventure is Knights of Invasion, and it's about medieval knights fighting an alien invasion.

Pixie

@eimyr Thanks for reconsidering the situation. Yeah, I can understand your feelings there.

doppelgreener

I love the stuff Worlds of Adventure puts out. :)

Pixie

@doppelgreener Oh, that's neat. I'm not sure if I'd play the adventure itself as is (maybe!), but it sounds like there's useful stuff inside.

BESW

[acquires, adds to ridiculously long list of things to read]

Pixie

The retainer, armor and weaponry, and alien creation rules pique my interest.

Especially since I'm not that experienced with Fate so not entirely comfortable with designing my own mechanics to handle things like that yet.

Shalvenay

03:22

@doppelgreener hrm...I have an E.T. if you want one ;)

doppelgreener

For me it is yet another adventure I didn't know I wanted until I saw it. :)

BESW

@Pixie I love seeing new ways of doing things! So many inventive ideas.

doppelgreener

@Shalvenay in what sense do you "have an E.T."?

BESW

Edible Terrariums are all the rage these days!

**Cool RPG stuff:** [Bundle of Holding](http://bundleofholding.com "buy RPGs cheap in bulk, support charities & indie designers!");
[Storium with the Stack](http://goo.gl/forms/jvz9Bs6jg8 "an interest survey");
[Venture City SRD](http://fate-srd.com/venture-city/ "is this the new Kerberos Club?");
[Map & Doc Archive](http://plagmada.org/Home.html "'PlaGMadA.' 'Bless you.'");
[Knights of Invasion](http://drivethrurpg.com/product/179613/Knights-of-Invasion--A-World-of-Adventure-for-Fate-Core "medieval knights fighting an alien invasion");

Shalvenay

@doppelgreener I was making an offhanded reference to my EVE Online main, actually -- he was born on a space station, so he is literally an extraterrestrial

Pixie

03:25

The concept of aliens attacking knights could also be helpful for some plot bunnies I've had for magical girls in a D&D-esque setting. They've gotta fight something, after all.

doppelgreener

@Shalvenay He's now on the way to Earth for a mining operation, and will be encountered by mysterious metallic natives.

@Pixie what is a plot bunny? :D

BESW

A plot bunny is a story idea which arrives unbidden and refuses to go away until written.

doppelgreener

Tomb Raider, the 2013 game, is currently available for the cost of a $1 charity donation: pcgamer.com/…

BESW

It's thought to be derived from this quote:

> Ideas are like rabbits. You get a couple and learn how to handle them, and pretty soon you have a dozen.
- John Steinbeck

Pixie

That and the idea that the idea keeps chewing on you.

Shalvenay

03:29

yeah, I know how that feels

Adeptus

> DONATIONS NO LONGER ACCEPTED. As noted below. WE HAVE RUN OUT OF TOMB RAIDER CODES TO SEND TO DONORS (as of 830 PM PT on 3/29).

doppelgreener

@Adeptus Noooooo!!

@Pixie @Pixie I seeee. :) I understand now.

That's like me with MTG commander decks. "Oh, I could make a deck around this card! And a deck around these ones! And a deck based around doing this thing! And..."

I usually find those cards and concepts while on the search for cards and concepts for an existing deck idea, too.

trogdor

03:45

@doppelgreener that is a strange combination

doppelgreener

@BESW Could this be Sweetheart? m.imgur.com/bwL6nY0

trogdor

I am still trying to make a spirit/arcane deck work

doppelgreener

(Or possibly a buddy)

@trogdor It is! I love it

BESW

@doppelgreener That looks like Sweetheart's Canadian creator shared his notes with a British mad scientist.

doppelgreener

@BESW So, a discomforting colleague then?

BESW

03:51

Yes.

They would bond over efficient paperwork, but have a horrible falling-out about whether staples or paperclips are better.

trogdor

@doppelgreener I have trouble understanding how the knights would even put up a fight against creatures who have space travel

BESW

(Also, Sweetheart's sled-dog personality is going to be very impatient with a corgi.)

doppelgreener

@trogdor I haven't read it myself yet, but I'm sure there's a way, or it wouldn't be much of an adventure.

trogdor

yeah

doppelgreener

@BESW also perhaps be doubly disconcerted that he's more or less her cousin in a sense. Like if there were only two humans surrounded by aliens, and one was Carl Sagan and the other a complete imbecile.

trogdor

03:56

I could imagine that the aliens have science but the knights have magic

that would be at least one possibility

BESW

> The falling star poses a significant challenge for the knights and their siege engineers. From the outside this can only be accomplished—with difficulty—using siege weapons, but it’s also possible to get inside the alien facility and destroy it from within.

> Some invaders can be persuaded to retreat once they realize that the planet holds intelligent life that will be destroyed by their xenoforming plans. It may not be easy for the knights to prove that people are intelligent or to make the aliens care about them, though.

Magician

@BESW ...that sounds like medieval x-com.

BESW

That's just one of the sample scenarios.

The book is set up for semi-randomised one-shot or three-session games, including multiple agendas for the aliens.

Magician

Last night, half the party in my game ran out of fate points. At that point compels become brutal.

BESW

Niiice.

Magician

04:05

They were trying to escape a ship that was being pulled down by a giant sea monster. That made for a very tense scene, with floor tilting, water rushing in, oil lamps breaking to create patches of burning water, etc, etc. And by the end of it, when most people were out and only one had decided to wait inside the ship to swim out afterwards, I compelled his Vengeance, No Matter the Cost aspect to have him swim down, at the sea monster. Fun times.

He dead now. Which, due to the setting, is not that big a deal, really. But still fun.

All the while they tried to get the person actually living on that ship out, as he had information they were after. They almost succeeded! But then the PC dragging him along had to succeed at a minor cost to climb a ladder, which ended up being his fancy armor suit snagging on a rope, causing him to lose a glove. And, seeing as he was out of fate points as well, I compelled him to let go of the man and grab the glove instead, on pure reflex.

doppelgreener

04:54

oh man. I love it.

(@BESW @trogdor I have a genuine interest in compels reaching this scale of severity. That is the kind of bite I think they should be having sometimes. Right now by comparison our compels are nonexistent or like a gentle massage.)

BESW

Give your next PC aspects that are more obviously compellable for dire mischief, and/or actively look for them as you play.

We can try to think of harder compels like you're asking for, but you can show us what you're asking for.

doppelgreener

Well I am looking for harder compels for my own character, but this isn't just about my character. Except for Doctor Light getting trapped in prehistoric Earth, I legitimately cannot think of a time we have had a compel that significantly altered the course of a story.

BESW

I get that.

doppelgreener

But, yeah, I'll look for stuff with my own character too and try to show you what I'm interested in and look for opportunities for self-compels and so on.

It's also part of why I'm going for a relatively ordinary character who has some genuine problems going on in her life.

BESW

But you're the one with the solid vision of the change you want to see, so I'm asking you to model it by suggesting compels for others too; Fate supports player-to-player compels.

doppelgreener

05:07

Oh! Sure. :)

BESW

The game has already given you the power to make this change happen.

(And since a player-to-player compel costs the compeller a fate point, it'll push your fate point pile down so compels will be more tempting for you too.)

TIL The Prisoner has a GURPS book.

That... doesn't seem like the best choice of system.

doppelgreener

@BESW ... oh man. I was thinking "hmm, but it'll cost me a fate point" as if it's a problem but you're right, it's not

trogdor

05:24

@doppelgreener that was the best compel XD

BESW

It actually wasn't a compel.

It was, as I recall, a choice to not spend Fate points on a roll in order to succeed at cost.

trogdor

hmm maybe technically

but it sure worked like one

doppelgreener

If it wasn't a compel, it'd certainly be one of those things that turns into a retroactive compel, I think.

... [sketches in time on personal calendar: "Sit down and listen to those Compel podcasts."]

trogdor

I don't honestly see how it not technically being a compel changes much

doppelgreener

yeah, that's fine if it wasn't actually a compel, but it is one of those "oh crap" moments I'd like to see more of.

trogdor

05:29

if it had been a compel I would have gotten a fate point at the end of a session that would have gone away by the time we started the next week

doppelgreener

So, I'll take @BESW's invitation and look out for more moments where I can compel myself and others like that.

trogdor

I don't think we actually want THAT much bite in our average compel though

it was literally a thing that left me not playing a character for many many sessions

doppelgreener

Also, I have some ideas brewing about how two-session issues need to be run, so I may try another one of those sometime. (In which people don't get to refresh their fate points between them.) Namely, they're like two-parter TV episode pairs: the second part might be a continuation, but that doesn't mean it doesn't need its own start / complication / middle / end arc.

@trogdor No, definitely not. The average compel should definitely not result in someone disappearing or dying.

trogdor

that being said, it was something I decided myself would happen to my own character, and I liked the idea

so that kind of thing isn't necessarily off the table all the time, the main point is just to make sure the compel is acceptable to the player being compeled

not that compels should be weak in general

BESW

@trogdor I don't think that sort of escalation is on the table.

doppelgreener

05:41

@trogdor Compels should be reasonable, but I don't completely agree with "they should be acceptable". But there's two senses of acceptable there: one is "I can accept you proposing this disaster." The other is "I can accept this disaster happening." Compels should definitely be the first kind, but they ought to be things we seriously consider buying off.

> Weaksauce compels (http://fate-srd.com/fate-core/what-do-during-play#weaksauce-compels):
In order for the compel mechanic to be effective, you have to take care that you’re proposing complications of sufficient dramatic weight. Stay away from superficial consequences that don’t really affect the character except to provide color for the scene. If you can’t think of an immediate, tangible way that the complication changes what’s going on in the game, you probably need to turn up the heat. If someone doesn’t go “oh crap” or give a similar visceral reaction, you probably need to turn up the …

To me this signals that sometimes, a compel should represent something the player doesn't want to have happen. The player shouldn't find every single compel sent their way easy to just accept and go "yes! thanks for the fate point" - unless they're a glutton for punishment, which is fine! The player should sometimes go "... do I really want this to happen? Maybe I should buy this off."

BESW

@doppelgreener You may be mis-remembering some dramatic compels because you don't go "Oh crap." You go "Oh yes!"

eg, when Stellata chose "sneaking through an enemy swamp" as the right time to get into a fight with Doctor Light.

doppelgreener

That's a good one. I liked that one.

And you're right, there are probably some I've forgotten. (I do remember the ones from our Doctor Who game.)

BESW

That compel totally ruined our plan and changed what happened next. Appa-Tax's castle might not have been destroyed, because Baker wouldn't have been thrown into the dungeon and freed the slaves as cover for his escape.

But the compel felt so natural, and delighted you so much, that it didn't seem like a plot-defining moment.

doppelgreener

No, that's true. I'd forgotten about that because of how natural it felt.

In part because for me at least, "have an argument with doctor light" was part of the plan from the outset.

BESW

You were planning to self-compel it.

Similarly, you don't realise how much Áquila's wounded wings and their resultant compels changed everything I'd been planning to do in that session.

doppelgreener

05:49

You're right, I don't.

Could you tell me briefly about that?

BESW

I was going to sneak the party into the robot for an infiltration-and-sabotage mission while I did dive-bomb attacks on the encampment and disabled the robot's weapons with my light rays.

doppelgreener

oooo, that'd be good.

BESW

But I got compelled to be Flashy instead of Quick about my flight, and everything cascaded from there.

trogdor

@doppelgreener if we want to seriously make compels something people would consider buying off, I don't think we should stick with taking away 2 of the fate points we normally get

doppelgreener

yeah. (and then interruptions happened which I now know better how to deal with.)

@trogdor Well we should stick for it for now, while we are busy having no problems having an overabundance of fate points at all at the default of 5 on account of how short our sessions are and how little opportunity we get to spend a whole 25 fate points together.

BESW

05:52

One of the reasons I went along with Baker's surrender-and-negotiate tactic was anticipating hard compels on my wings if I tried any of my original plan.

trogdor

@doppelgreener I am fine with that, but we should definitly stick to fixing one problem at a time

BESW

If our game's compels were all just gentle taps, I wouldn't have been avoiding a situation where I would needlessly invite them.

doppelgreener

@trogdor First, I disagree, second, they are the same problem. If I stuck to fixing one problem at a time I would have multiple problems still present. But, also, the entire reason I suggested going down to three was because at five we've always finished with an abundance of fate points left over (even the GM has).

Having a lower amount of fate points makes compels more appealing. Running out of fate points - something only one or two players might ever do previously, right at the end of a session - makes compels urgently desirable and totally unavoidable.

trogdor

my thought process is that when/if we take care of the problem we have of not giving out or taking enough compels, we should not then stick to only having 3 fate points AND ramping up compels to the point where we feel like we have to actually buy some of them off

the simple thing to remember there being that those particular compels will actually be a drain rather than a buffer to our fate point count

really really simple math

doppelgreener

no, i get that.

trogdor

05:56

I would rather have one or two fate points left at the end of a session than have the problem of wanting to spend one more than I ever got

BESW

This is a dynamic process of figuring out where our group is happiest in terms of the fate point economy. If anything stops working, we won't keep it just because it used to work.

trogdor

and the three fate point thing does seem to be working the way we want it to for now

doppelgreener

However, here's the idea:
- You should start out with a bunch of fate points.
- Somewhere through the session there should be compels.
- Ideally, you might run out. This allows the GM to force your hand for drama. That is valuable happening at any point during the session, except right at the end.
- Running out should preferably happen early enough you have an opportunity to actually _use_ the fate points you received before the session ends and fate points are refreshed.
- Players shouldn't feel like they have enough fate points to buy off every compel sent their way.

BESW

Oh, man. Knights of Invasion has randomised alien tables!

doppelgreener

When we were at 5 fate points per player, and 4-6 players per session, from what I recall, it's been relatively common for one or two people to end the session not having spent any fate points, one person ending it empty, and everyone else still having a few. That's not enough to even risk running dry by the end, except for just that one person. I can't provide ten compels every session yet (which, if they were all declined, is enough to cost everyone 2 fate points).

BESW

06:00

[to Genesis!]

trogdor

afk, back in a bit

doppelgreener

3 fate points per player means we actually are relatively likely to run dry before the end of the session, making accepting compels or proposing self-compels desirable even while you still have fate points.

@BESW And yes, it's going to be a matter of finding a sweet spot. If three fate points really is too little, cool, we'll go up to five or maybe consider four and see if things improve. However, for our short sessions, five has felt way too many. It lets us just be complacent and feel absolutely no need for compels or self-compels at all. When I'm at four or five, one more seems like nothing at all. When I'm at two or three, one more seems like a lot.

So I'd rather start at an amount that makes a fate point feel like "a lot."

And I feel like maybe Atomic Robo also has us start with all our aspects blank for that reason too. Our characters initially only have one fate point, if we start with all the non-concept aspects blank. That lets us slowly ramp our way up into having the 5 fate points of agency, instead of having that from the outset.

So, I think 3 fate points per player right now is important for the fact it will encourage compels. As we practice what we want out of those compels, we can raise that cap if we feel we need it. But I do not want us to be at a point where we feel super comfortable and keep having so many fate points we genuinely cannot possibly spend them all before the Issue ends and never even think about compels.

For my part I'm kind of jealous of Raycia for her character Myka, who's always had plenty of easily available compel opportunities available and she's clear what she wants and communicates it well.

Grumpy alchemist girl from a messed up family of classic evil villains and with a biting tongue and who's otherwise an ordinary human being with all the usual complexities and weaknesses and connections is a good opportunity to fish things out like that myself.

trogdor

06:33

I get all of that

but I also don't want to end up with fewer fate points than I want to be able to spend, despite how many compels I may have gotten

BESW

Neither does anyone else.

trogdor

and yes, I do realize you sorta adressed that already

doppelgreener

yeah, i don't want us to go running dry either

like, as a genuine issue of "we have no fate points and there is no opportunity to get more"

trogdor

I do see an issue if we keep going the way we used to most of the time

BESW

**Cool RPG stuff:** [Bundle of Holding](http://bundleofholding.com "buy RPGs cheap in bulk, support charities & indie designers!");
[Storium with the Stack](http://goo.gl/forms/jvz9Bs6jg8 "an interest survey");
[Map & Doc Archive](http://plagmada.org/Home.html "'PlaGMadA.' 'Bless you.'");
[Knights of Invasion](http://drivethrurpg.com/product/179613/Knights-of-Invasion--A-World-of-Adventure-for-Fate-Core "medieval knights fighting an alien invasion");
[Unbound RPG](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gshowitt/unbound-rpg "Limitless adventures in worlds of your own creation.");

trogdor

06:38

we very rarely had a low number of fate points between use before the 3 fate point thing we are currently trying out

though I do recall it happening once or twice

doppelgreener

but risking going dry will have the players pursue self-compels to push the story forward - they'll create the drama, and the GM can take it and escalate or explore that drama to produce even more drama - and avoiding an overabundance will help (speaking as a GM) with opposition scaling, because not every problem could potentially have four fate points comfortably thrown at it.

trogdor

that certainly isn't a thing we want to have be the norm

BESW

It happened sometimes when I was 'specially designing sessions with that in mind (but often it wouldn't work), and it wasn't something I could sustain.

doppelgreener

@BESW what's the "that" in this case?

BESW

@doppelgreener Bringing the party to a point where everyone's fate point stockpiles were running dry.

doppelgreener

06:43

@BESW yeah, I don't think I could manage that for long either. Five fate points per player is a lot. Also part of the reason I want to crack two-session issues and get those working well. That extends the amount of time between refreshes closer to the session lengths ARRPG seems to have been designed for.

BESW

A problem with two-session issues is that we can't rely on having the same cast for each session.

doppelgreener

@BESW Yeah, that's quite true.

BESW

That's a major reason the campaign's slowed down so much in the last few months; we keep saying "We have enough to play, but not the right people."

And that's a thing I want to stop cold.

trogdor

that has been a problem

BESW

I'm this close to reinstating my old 4e noclip gag.

(Honestly, that might be a good way to create our new pressure.)

trogdor

06:53

it could be

BESW

...yes... [notes]

doppelgreener

@BESW What is that?

BESW

In 4e, in order to deal with unpredictable attendance without straining suspension of disbelief too harshly or penalising people for not showing up, I wrapped the semi-random disappearance of PCs into the plot.

doppelgreener

Oh right! Reality breaking apart meant people would wink in and out.

BESW

When someone didn't show up to a session, their PC would slip, no-clip style, through a wall or a floor and find themselves in one of a handful of strange, unfamiliar spaces--which were actually the locations of important events in future adventures.

doppelgreener

06:58

Oh, fun!

BESW

They'd remain there for moments, but to the rest of the party they'd be gone however long it took in-game until the player returned to a session.

When the player returned, the PC would no-clip back to wherever the party was at the time.

doppelgreener

For my part and Dan's part, I don't see a problem. Stellata will be staying behind on Umdaar. Baker may be there, or may have other places to disappear to quietly. Dan's been getting a lot of late work on Saturdays and has had good reason to accept it (even if in an ideal world he'd prefer to sit down with us and play), so don't plan sessions that won't work if Baker isn't there. Cassandra is still quite malleable.

BESW

As the game progressed and the party started actually visiting these strange places they'd already seen before, they were able to piece together clues and have a slight advantage because of that familiarity.

doppelgreener

If y'all don't play Amaterasu primarily because we aren't there, so help me I will launch an aerial pillow-strike upon you.

BESW

This next adventure has been particularly "Ooh, do we want to do this without everyone?" because it's the return to earth.

But yeah, I'm going to push for moving forward.

trogdor

07:05

I would certainly support that

doppelgreener

@BESW Go right ahead. Yes, you should. Sessions with everyone happen once in a blue moon.

When you return to earth, if it's without me, you'll be making discoveries that will tell me what kind of world my alchemist is suddenly in.

Also, I might have my alchemist be someone who doesn't know how to use a computer. She might have an iphone, but otherwise be fairly technologically inept. Her family's in-house library was still using index cards. There are very, very old people still saying how things should work there.

BESW

I'm planning to have the first session be a lot of blank-slate "Players tell me what's going on" stuff.

@doppelgreener Index cards are harder to dox.

trogdor

lol

in a way, that also makes them more prepared than a lot of people were

doppelgreener

@BESW it's true!

@trogdor yeah, it means she's pretty comfortable with the world as-is. the biggest deal to her is that suddenly there's a lot of weird and wonderful stuff happening in the world... as opposed to just in her house. that's pretty fascinating to her. lots of opportunity for study!

I also re-remembered about the brainstorm thing on the weekend. Atomic Robo characters look at a seemingly supernatural problem and say "there must be an explanation for how this can happen." I'm interested in doing that some more! ;) Maybe the stuff will have a lot of semi-scientific basis, and we'll begin becoming adept enough we'll go "oh, it's one of these classifications of things again! Fascinating."

I'll probably prompt some brainstorms with Cassandra, if that's alright.

BESW

Aye.

I'm actually thinking that the no-clip might turn into a big long drawn-out brainstorm-y thing.

doppelgreener

07:18

That'll be interesting. :)

i wonder if there's something like a mega-brainstorm would be possible: multiple brainstorms, one occurring every session or two, where the hypothesis establishes a "fact" in a single overarching and ongoing brainstorm.

BESW

I've experimented with that sort of nested mechanic before.

Back in the day I ran a challenge with Problematic where each roll was expanded into a contest or conflict.

It works pretty well.

doppelgreener

Awesome.

BESW

But I don't think nesting brainstorms inside a brainstorm would work, because of the difference between facts and hypotheses.

doppelgreener

Ah.

What do you think might work? Just, only making those fact-gathering rolls every session or two?

BESW

That could work.

Or expand the "single opposed roll to see who gets to make a fact" turns into a contest for each fact.

I'll think about what part of the story I want it to be.

Leaning toward just drawing out the brainstorm across multiple sessions by limiting the circumstances under which a turn is possible.

So it becomes this background "season arc" thing that rears up every now and then when the story of the week hits the right keys.

doppelgreener

07:35

I'd like that.

Also, Dan's got a fun session idea in the works (beside humansville) he may be happy to run sometime in the next few weeks.

I'm saying that myself, he hasn't suggested to me when he'll be comfortable running it.

Sejanus

morning

Doomed Mind

morning

BESW

[wave]

doppelgreener

[shake]

Doomed Mind

@doppelgreener what, hands, people? :P

BESW

07:43

Probably a shimmy.

Sejanus

can someone explain me how this is not "opinion based" rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/77854/… ;)

BESW

> Primarily opinion-based: Many good questions generate some degree of opinion based on expert experience, but answers to this question will tend to be almost entirely based on opinions, rather than facts, references, or specific expertise.

It's a real problem that people can provide actionable experience-based solutions to.

Sejanus

I see, thanks

BESW

The line is a fuzzy one, and we try to err on the side of leaving ambiguous cases open unless/until it becomes obvious form answers which side of the line it's on.

Polyducks

08:11

@sejanus @BESW I do think the question spends an awful lot of time waffling

BESW

It's not a great question. Too broad, or unclear, might be reasonably levelled against it.

It'd be better as a question about a specific event the asker experienced.

Polyducks

I know the problem the asker is experiencing, but it's not to do with any of the reasons they mention.

BESW

But at this point, it'd also be better to ask that as a separate question rather than editing this one.

Polyducks

Yeah

I've been feeling quite uneasy on this stack/chat recently. There's a lot of drama which is happening but it's all suppressed so nothing really gets resolved.

AncientSwordRage

@Polyducks that sounds bad

Polyducks

08:19

@AncientSwordRage Yeah :/ Unfortunately I don't really know what to do about it.

Except maybe move away

BESW

Well, what's worrying you?

Problems remain unresolved if people aren't made aware of them.

Polyducks

@BESW Most notably that I've been prevented from saying certain words because someone else has read some new meaning into them. The words 'be nice' have been thrown around several times when I wasn't 'being nasty'.

It seems like a catch-all for 'shut up'.

Sejanus

@Polyducks agree

Polyducks

I'm being purposefully vague so that I don't trigger it again.

@Sejanus I'm glad it's not just me.

Sejanus

I mean agree on question waffling :) I have no idea about the inner drama of rpg se

AncientSwordRage

08:24

@Polyducks that sucks

BESW

This chat has been working for a few years on being a place that avoids throwing around certain words and themes casually, because it makes people uncomfortable.

Polyducks

@BESW but there is a marked difference between describing something and comparing it directly to a holocaust.

Sejanus

BESW i'm sad to hear that

BESW

It's not just you being asked to choose your words carefully, and it's not just Eimyr doing the asking.

AncientSwordRage

We've had our fair share of drama in Mos

It all worked out though

Mostly

Kinda

Polyducks

08:26

Like, I get it, but you can't just keep marking something as bad because it reminds you of something else. It keeps derailing otherwise innocent topics with people saying, "Hold on. Can you say that? Let's look into the definition and origin of that word."

Like, I don't care about the etymology. Everyone knows what I mean. Everyone knows that I'm not trying to incite racial hatred or insult someone's mother.

Essentially, if I'm the kind of person that isn't wanted in this chat, I'd rather someone let me know instead of just hen-pecking at everything I say. And that's the source of my frustration.

BESW

Randomly mentioning porn isn't justified as relevant because something being talked about reminded you of it and will be dealt with accordingly.

Polyducks

Fine. We've dealt with that and the apologies that followed it.

Likewise I've said things that were 'out there' and apologized for that too. Which brings me to another topic - I have a blame history for everything which makes all my points invalid.

BESW

I'm not sure what "a blame history for everything" means.

Polyducks

The magic ability to quote things without the discourse that followed.

Specifically one of my comments was flagged without discussion - when I would've been willing to go back and change it.

Like I said, there's no real talk about things and it just feels frustrating.

BESW

Okay, so there's a lot going on here.

Polyducks

08:31

It always ends up in an explosion of, "I don't like that. Stop doing that."

BESW

First, as you've said, you've "said things that were 'out there' and apologized." After that's happened two or more times, some folks are going to assume you're not actually sorry and will just go straight to flagging because talking isn't achieving anything long-term. More charitable folk will figure that you didn't know this new sort of thing falls under the same category as the old thing.

Polyducks

It's mostly the latter

BESW

Yes, but we can't see the difference.

Polyducks

And I can't see the similarity

Sejanus

Sorry to interrupt but, as a new person, what exactly are things you aren't allowed to say here?

BESW

08:33

@Polyducks So that's a tension point that we've identified and can work on.

Polyducks

@BESW Right!

Doomed Mind

@Sejanus basic netiquette applies...

BESW

@Sejanus The be nice policy is deliberately vague because any attempt to list specific phrases or concepts inevitably creates more holes than it patches up.

Polyducks

@Sejanus (open to interpretation)

doppelgreener

@Polyducks @BESW This may be related to the time I was gently hinted not to say schmuck, where Polyducks was there shortly afterwards, based on its prior origins.

BESW

08:35

We most often run into struggles on these points:

> - Bigotry of any kind. Language likely to offend or alienate individuals or groups based on race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, etc. will not be tolerated. At all. (Those are just a few examples; when in doubt, just don't.)
- Inappropriate language or attention. Avoid vulgar terms and anything sexually suggestive. Also, this is not a dating site.

Sejanus

Sounds really bad :/

doppelgreener

Mostly since "schmuck" has nothing to do with its anatomical origins in my local usage, and it's a fairly useful word, I'm still inclined to use it.

Polyducks

@BESW Yeah, these are the parts I'm having trouble with.

BESW

There are many parts of the Internet where words like "whore" and phrases like "master race" are used casually and apparently without malice. They are nonetheless problematic.

Doomed Mind

@Sejanus what is?

doppelgreener

08:36

@BESW I agree with that.

Also, I super like the chat as it is, where we discourage or rule out profanities, degrading terms, and so on.

Sejanus

the vague bigotry rule that can be abused easily

doppelgreener

That's made it very conductive to feeling like a safe place for a variety of people and topics.

@Sejanus It doesn't really get abused from what I can see. It just gets used well.

Polyducks

@doppelgreener 'schmuck' is a relevant example here

BESW

When such words are necessary to discuss a topic, we use them carefully. When they aren't necessary, we try to avoid them because people have left the chat due to that kind of language making them feel unwelcome.

Doomed Mind

@Sejanus we're not some kind of SJW community, you wont have to fear we're banning or censoring you...

Sejanus

08:38

:)))

Polyducks

@DoomedMind This is my concern. There are many similarities between this and a SJW community, and I feel that every term has to be carefully turned over and inspected.

BESW

Repeated deliberate abuse of the policy can result in temporary suspension from chat, but that's never actually happened.

Polyducks

Just in case I offend someone.

@BESW I've been temporarily suspended when someone flagged my comment without discussing it with me first.

BESW

That's unfortunate.

Polyducks

My issue as it stands is that there's a fine line between 'having a safe space' and 'having a space to generate ideas'.

Ahriman

08:40

@BESW Why did it never happened?

Doomed Mind

@Polyducks the difference I see here (at least what I can see from my personal experience) is that here mostly reason is the governing factor

ugh, grammar much... Oo

doppelgreener

@Ahriman Temporary suspensions only start kicking in after a couple of flags, I think, and people here are just generally well-behaved or asked to tone something or other down so it doesn't really reach that point.

There have been suspensions from this chat for other reasons.

We've got a troll who used to come by every now and then who eventually persisted enough to earn themselves a very, very long suspension from mods across the stack.

Polyducks

@doppelgreener nah, it was because the flag pinged about 10,000 people on stack exchange and they all descended upon it

Doomed Mind

@Polyducks urks, mob mentality, huh?

doppelgreener

@Polyducks I don't see a problem here exactly?

@DoomedMind No, flagged messages go up for peer review to everyone with over 10k network reputation, and they review it as a problem or not a problem. Polyducks appears to be describing "my message got flagged and reviewers agreed it was a problem".

BESW

08:43

Recently we were encouraged to use the flagging system more aggressively for repeat offenders. I suspect @Polyducks was seen as a repeat offender because it was the third or fourth time he'd been asked to avoid language he didn't consider bigoted but which others did.

Doomed Mind

@doppelgreener i see.

Polyducks

@doppelgreener I just find that I'm spending more time discussing the language that I'm using than the actual idea I'm trying to convey. Essentially, I want to know if I belong in this chat or not.

BESW

It was seen as a repeat offence, while he saw it was separate unrelated incidents.

Polyducks

@BESW I'm sorry for any offence I'm causing, and I'm sorry for stirring things up. I've just been upset and I want to address it better than being passive-aggressive which was my initial reaction.

BESW

@Polyducks It's okay, this discussion happens every once in a while.

Polyducks

08:44

Essentially, whenever I've seen something which has seemed 'bigoted' or 'rude' I've ignored it or not responded and that's pretty much where that sort of language ends - instead of turning to a conversation on the topic for an hour.

BESW

It's part of the culture shift between the Stack and other parts of the Internet, and recently within the Stack itself.

Last year there was a big crackdown on Stack chat behaviour.

@Polyducks That... doesn't really make anything better, though. "Keep quiet and say nothing" isn't a standard we want to enforce.

Polyducks

I'm talking borderline infringements where you can estimate their intention

Not someone shouting profanity

BESW

Some history.

doppelgreener

For my part, I enjoy and respect the fact this room's pursuing the idea of keeping people comfortable. Genuinely offensive terminology isn't okay, swearing should be avoided, and uncomfortable topics should be moved to NAB on request (or on sight, if we know it's the kind of thing that typically causes a problem).

Talking about how great someone's ass looks, for example, is probably something we should keep off here but has come up.

Polyducks

@BESW I can't quote these things because I don't keep a log of it. I wouldn't know what to search even if I had a log.

BESW

08:47

The Stack has had some chat rooms notorious for their toxic culture. Profanity, bigotry, bullying, the works.

Polyducks

@Doppelgreener I agree. I'm not saying it should be a place for swearing or controversial topics, but I think a level of leniency and benefit-of-the-doubt when using words like 'schmuck' shouldn't be an offence.

BESW

It got the point where folks were avoiding ALL chat rooms.

Even in chats that didn't want that behaviour, flagging inappropriate messages did nothing because the responders were judging them in comparison to absolute trash.

doppelgreener

I do think however we should remember the principle of what's going on: we're here to make sure people aren't uncomfortable, and avoid vulgarity. I feel there have been some occasions recently where the line has been pushed unnecessarily far to the point I have felt uncomfortable with how far it's been pushed. That just means we're going... overzealous. But only by a small measure.

BESW

Last year it came to a head and a lot of behaviour got cracked down on.

Sejanus

@doppelgreener

Doomed Mind

08:50

@doppelgreener there is a fine line between being overzealous and censorship though

BESW

Be Nice and flagging policies were revisited, and a more aggressive attitude toward flagging violations was suggested.

Sejanus

Don't you think if you ban certain words and people feel like they can't just speak freely but must weight their every word carefuly, that it make them uncomfortable too?

* can make

BESW

@DoomedMind A few things. First, the Stack has never claimed to be a free-speech space. It's a semi-professional, privately curated website that's totally free to enforce whatever censorship it wants.

Second, nobody's making any blanket ban on certain words.

Third, yes, we've been more zealous than usual, and sometimes overzealous. Nobody's arguing that.

Doomed Mind

@BESW I know. But that is what every site claims :) Even the ones claiming to work for free speech.

I'm not making a judgement here

BESW

@DoomedMind I don't know what you're responding to. I just said three things in a row.

I'm sad that @Polyducks got a flag-ban for something without any discussion first.

Polyducks

08:53

@Sejanus this is my perspective

BESW

We may have even forgotten that our multi-lingual users don't always have full understanding of the impact of certain English words, or that English phrases' impact varies from place to place.

Polyducks

@BESW Basically, I'm trying to modify my behavior and I appreciate people that take the time to explain when something isn't okay. I'm just concerned that my intention isn't being taken into consideration

BESW

But I do think there's a big difference between asking people to be careful with the words they use, and asking people to shut up and be silently uncomfortable with those words.

Polyducks

Yeah.

Doomed Mind

@BESW it just seemed to me like a justification, thats all. I had no other intention besides commenting on it.

doppelgreener

08:55

Okay we have like, two people talking about generalisations which don't even seem relevant here and a whole lot of not examples.

Ahriman

@BESW @Polyducks This in general is the reason why I prefer to lurk here

Polyducks

But there's also an element of choosing to be offended.

Sejanus

It depends on perspective... people come here from different countries, different cultures

Polyducks

@doppelgreener One second, I'll grab one from yesterday.

BESW

Being made uncomfortable happens regardless of intent. That's why we need to be able to talk about it when it happens.

Sejanus

08:57

in my culture if you get offended by seeing some certain word when nobody even intended to offend you or anybody, people would think there's something seriously wrong with you, and you wouldn't be taken seriously, and nobody would even dream to seriously ban words (as opposed to banning intentional offenses or rude speak in general)

BESW

If we're going to assume good intent on the part of the speaker, we also need to assume good intentions on the part of the hearer.

Doomed Mind

@BESW yes, absolutely.

doppelgreener

Heck we just got a starred message about blanket bans on certain words and we don't have a blanket ban on certain words. We suggest people don't swear, but that's because we want to keep tensions low and swearing tends to do that. But the words themselves can be used - sparingly - if and when they're pertinent. While being careful.

We agreed as much on meta.

BESW

I strongly suggest that people look at the Meta Stack Exchange discussions on these topics.

doppelgreener

Is there any particular tag you're thinking of? Right now at least there's definitely [chat] and [behavior], but also there's a search for "be nice policy" stuff: meta.stackexchange.com/search?q=be+nice+policy

BESW

08:59

Every concern being raised here is discussed at length there.

Polyducks

@doppelgreener chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/28613934#28613934

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