TRPG General Chat

Golokopitenko

00:36

ey0000

is this the place for GM advice?

nitsua60

it can be--what's up?

[welcome, btw]

Golokopitenko

one of my players is extremely reckless... it's not his fault, it's how his character is built

he's borderline suicidal

I wonder if I should refrain my NPCs from killing him

BESW

What's your system?

nitsua60

system?

Golokopitenko

shadowrun 5e, homebrew campaign without matrix or AR, and with some custom armor/weapons

BESW

00:39

Is the player unhappy about how his character is behaving?

Golokopitenko

naaah, he always wanted to RP that kind of character

more the reason not to allow him to die

BESW

How does the rest of the party feel?

Golokopitenko

they are having so much fun with the recklessness

nitsua60

how do you feel?

Golokopitenko

last game I was sweating bullets to avoid town guards from massacring him

I mean, I'm not annoyed, and he says he's fine if the character dies, but I wouldn't like that to happen

BESW

00:42

It sounds like everyone in the group, including you, wants to encourage this behaviour. Is your problem that you feel it would be unrealistic for the PC to survive very long? Or are you okay with that, but having trouble getting the mechanics to not off him by accident?

Golokopitenko

I don't mind the character being reckless, it's actually fun for everyone, the problem is when NPC authorities are involved. I feel like the game would not be consistent if they would not try to kill him, and that would mean a certain death in most cases

nitsua60

I haven't played SR at all--is lethality a given thing? As in, would it have been ludicrous to have the guards nab him where he'd stand for trial and either engender a brilliant defense or have the party break him out? (Or discover that there's a shadowy patron who's been pulling strings behind the scenes to make things work out okay?)

Golokopitenko

test

I'm having a bit of a connection problem on my end

I'm not sure about lethality in SR, but RAW is pretty easy to die. Characters do have edge and are usually more powerful than the thugs they fight against... usually

BESW

In the games I play, PC death is generally considered the most boring, least tension-creating outcome of a defeat. Instead we've had PCs get captured, or replaced by an imposter, or they get away but lose something important to them...

Golokopitenko

that's a very good point!

but I'm afraid, fluff-wise, it'd be weird he'd be captured instead of outright killed

BESW

00:46

We lean toward outcomes which create more drama and complication, pushing the story forward by forcing the party to try and fix these things.

Golokopitenko

Hmmm, come to think, he would die... but he could burn edge to barely survive. In that case I could capture the character

BESW

@Golokopitenko That's where things like "a shadowy figure orchestrating things" or "we need him alive to interrogate him!" come into play.

Golokopitenko

@BESW Yes... yes indeed, that's a very good alternative

nitsua60

If the player's up for it a capture->brainwash->release->character acting way differently->party has to figure out how to un-hijack their head...

Golokopitenko

that's also a good idea, but the character is pretty much un-conditionable (is that a real word?)

he's a warhammer 40k ork

BESW

00:48

You may find this article helpful: "Making the Tough Decisions." It's about how there's never just one choice for a character to make.

nitsua60

Importantly, I think we've helped you nail down the problem: for your setting to work in your mind the character's either got to die or needs a reason to keep surviving.

Golokopitenko

oh he could be captured to be a slave for the arenas or workforce!

yesss the ideas flow

thank you all very much

BESW

Happy to help! Let us know how it goes, eh?

Golokopitenko

I certainly will

BESW

01:36

Best Obi-Wan cosplay ever. #StarWars https://t.co/ldMCLkw5yK

Tweeted by propstore_com on February 27, 2016 at 9:30 AM

Golokopitenko

ouch

BESW

02:29

@Shalvenay This post on narrativism by @Bankuei (hi!), and his others on the subject, may be of use to you.

Shalvenay

@BESW I read part of it already

BESW

I'm not sure it starts defining as many context concepts as you'd like, but it's hard to tell how far back is needed to start for your situation.

Flags may be something you're searching for and not finding in your games.

(I used to buy into what he calls "the trap of non-flags." It only worked out because I knew my players really well and could intuit the reasoning behind their choices with some accuracy.)

Shalvenay

as to his latest post -- I think part of the problem I have is that I take the limit going to zero of the size of story arcs -- a satisfying session uncovers and resolves several problems in its course

Shalvenay

03:00

@BESW also -- I wonder if not all goals/relationships/etal are flags

BESW

Well, naturally.

A flag is a mechanic by which a player can explicitly indicate what kinds of stories and conflicts they want.

Your character can have a relationship that isn't a flag; in games without flags, everything isn't a flag even if you wish it were.

Shalvenay

ah

I'm actually thinking of goals/ideals that are "anti-flags" if you will

that wind up trivializing, disrupting, or otherwise breaking things

Oblivious Sage

03:13

@Smurfton After getting burned by Wheel of Time and Song of Ice & Fire I now only read things that are complete.

nitsua60

03:32

@ObliviousSage burned in the sense of "don't like where it ended up" or in the sense of "I can't wait so long for the next installment every time?" Or some other sense?

Oblivious Sage

@nitsua60 In the "I can't wait so long for the next installment every time" sense.

nitsua60

Gotcha. And sympathize. However, in the case of WoT it gave me time to reread the entire series each time =/

And I've got to say that "it takes a long time because it's really complicated and because I'm trying to get my notes together for the next guy 'cause I'm dying" feels a lot more reasonable to me than "it takes a long time because I really like hanging around the set."
Not that I have any claim on either man's time. But I wants what I wants.

Oblivious Sage

I was OK with rereading the whole series to be ready for the new book for the first 7 or 8 books.

After that I was like, "no, thanks, I have better things to do with my time."

nitsua60

@ObliviousSage Particularly with what happened to in-world pace 'round about book 7 or 8. Wasn't one of those entirely contained within a single in-world day?

That said, I feel like Sanderson did an amazing job hitting the style/feel of the earlier books. I felt like I was reading RJ fresh again, after such a morass in ~7-11.

Oblivious Sage

Yeah, I think book 8 or 9 of Wheel of Time was basically just, "There's so many plot threads going that we're going to take a whole book to just remind you what's going in all of them rather than actually advancing any of them."

I actually haven't read the last 3 or so. I own them, I just haven't ever been in the mood to go back through and re-read the whole series.

BESW

03:43

I'm fond of Book-a-Minute's summaries.

Winter's Heart; Crossroads of Twilight; New Spring.

nitsua60

@ObliviousSage I guess I was being hyperbolic: A Crown of Swords is entirely contained within 9 in-universe days. (Source). That's the shortest one (in-world).

doppelgreener

@BESW The book-a-minute summary for The Dragonbone Chair is startlingly accurate but leaves out a few details.

nitsua60

Nite all =)

BESW

If you think that's concise, try Huckleberry Finn.

doppelgreener

@nitsua60 Night!

BESW

03:47

ttfn

nitsua60

@waxeagle thanks for the bounty--I'll be interested to see what comes of it.

doppelgreener

@BESW The Collected Works of Piers Anthony

BESW

Interview with the Vampire.

doppelgreener

I am mightily amused by The Book of Three.

@BESW very concise

I read the Dune one. Hmmm.

wax eagle

@nitsua60 anytime

doppelgreener

04:05

@BESW I'm disappointed by the lack of Princess Bride, but maybe it does not itself need lampooning.

BESW

I offer, instead, the collected works of e e cummings.

doppelgreener

@BESW i am impressed by this

BESW

07:20

> Banter first! If you go first in a conflict, no one can use physical skills to target another person during the first round of that conflict.

trogdor

lol

pacifism ho!

Magician

Related: how would you represent what Spider-Man does, i.e. bantering while fighting?

Anaphory

Create advantage, or attacking the (mental) stress track?

BESW

At its simplest, he's using Provoke to create advantages and Empathy to discover weaknesses, then using those aspects and free invokes to boost his Combat attacks.

Example:

trogdor

yep XD

also, people sometimes screw up because he made them mad

doppelgreener

07:25

@trogdor <- how i am going to play the alchemist girl

trogdor

hee

Magician

> Quip! Whenever you succeed with style on a defense roll, you can choose to create an advantage with a free invocation instead of a boost, as long as you phrase it as a quip.

trogdor

@doppelgreener I look forward to playing her Golem while you do this thing XD

BESW

Rhino is immune to physical attacks. Spider-man uses Provoke to needle him and keep him off-balance, and defends against Rhino's attacks with Athletics. Eventually he uses Empathy to discover that Rhino is Quick to overheat, and uses that to overcome Rhino's immunity to physical attacks.

I'd also suggest a stunt like this, though:

> Glib in the face of danger. You can defend against physical attacks with Provoke.

trogdor

yeah

@BESW he does this a lot

XD

Magician

07:30

Eeeh, that part I'd disagree with. He still dodges the blows with his incredibly high Athletics. And I don't see his Provoke being higher.

The rest does sound about right. Which would explain why his teammates frequently get annoyed at him: they're fighting while he's provoking the enemy.

trogdor

well, that is certainly debatable, but I still think it factors in to why people miss attacks against him

but I can certainly see that being represented by creating advantage

Magician

@trogdor Probably modeled by invoking the advantages he created with Provoke.

trogdor

yeah

pretty much what I was saying

XD

Magician

A relatively small thing that Fate doesn't handle all that well is characters doing multiple things at once, especially if they're using different skills for that. Stunts can cover it a bit, but only a bit. E.g. attacking multiple people. Or, well, swinging around while annoying the opponent.

trogdor

yeah

Magician

07:37

Some of it can be handled by narration: "of course Spider-Man is jumping and punching the Rhino, but really, what he's doing is Provoking."

Pixie

Anyone want to glance over a potential answer for the shared narrative question? I'm mainly looking to ensure that a) my answer is clear and b) my conception of a shared narrative is actually what it is and not some strange outlier formed in rather specific communities. :v

trogdor

@Magician I have thought of that a little

Magician

@Pixie Sure.

trogdor

@Pixie yeah sure

unless I am deeply mistaken, shared narrative is pretty much one of the things Fate encourages heavily

Pixie

Thanks! Have a pastebin (though I can move it into a google doc if you'd like to comment on the thing itself; general impressions are fine though).

Magician

07:41

The blocks metaphor is not very clear to me.

Pixie

Alrighty. I can tweak or scratch it entirely. Does the rest of the answer up to that point make sense?

Magician

Also, it seems like providing a couple of examples of such games with very brief explanation as to how they work would be beneficial. Including AW as there's 95% chance that's the game the querent is invited to play.

The rest does look good.

trogdor

you could mention how say, D&D is pretty heavy on the GM controling that stuff, while stuff like Fate, is on the other end

just as two examples on both ends that I am personally pretty familiar with XD

you can of course use other examples, I am just using examples for examples

Pixie

Examples are the next stop, though one issue is that I still mostly play freeform, which can fall anywhere on this spectrum. AW, for example, I haven't played, and I don't know enough about it to feel comfortable saying "it's this thing or that thing." But yeah, 3.5/PF was a potential mention for traditionally GM-directed play.

trogdor

and you might want to use at least one thing in the middle of the spectrum of course

BESW

07:45

Microscope and A Penny For My Thoughts are extreme shared-narrative examples.

trogdor

that being said, I didn't see anything wrong with it

BESW

Pilgrims of the Flying Temple a less extreme version.

Pixie

Yeah, I'm trying to reach back into my brain for Microscope experiences. It is around 3 AM and it has been a while. xD

trogdor

Microscope is a pretty interesting example

and it doesn't technically have a GM in it, because everyone is just taking the turns they are mandated in the system

Pixie

I definitely want to include it if I can get what I want to say to congeal.

trogdor

07:48

I have that problem all the time

people might notice long stretches of me saying little to nothing and huge TLDR from me XD

due in part to that

Pixie

08:17

I did the dance required to get the right Google Drive account up, and also did some stuff to the answer.

(Also nearly labeled that last chunk "editing hell" and then realized that term likely makes no sense to no one but me. It's where things go when they need to get out of my way and possibly get deleted, but maybe they can come back later. It should really be "editing purgatory," but I'm set in my ways.)

trogdor

lol

it looks good so far

Pixie

When I kill my darlings, I also send them to hell.

Thanks!

trogdor

I send them back into my brain for later use

then they rot there if I am not still excited about them,....

so it might be relatively similar

in some ways anyway

Pixie

Haha, yes.

trogdor

I am not really sure you need the bottom edited bit, at least not as it is

Pixie

08:24

Yeah. I'm probably going to pull a few key points from it and then delete it entirely.

trogdor

but then again, that is why it is at the bottom in it's own special bubble

Pixie

08:53

Hrm. Does the paragraph on fate points seem like a clear and accurate summary of how it works and how narrative control changes hands? Like I said, it's late, and it's been a whiiile since I got to play Fate.

trogdor

I'll check

it's right, but it neglects the fact that PC's can also compel each other and NPC's

also self compels, but those are unnecessary and are at best a side note for your answer XD

Pixie

Oh yes. [fixes]

We just didn't get a lot of that in the games I was able to play. Some fate economy action, but not as much as I would have liked. xD

trogdor

yeah

our group has had minimal amounts of it too, but it happens to be an option in the system

and a seemingly relevant one at that

we are still working on getting compels to happen often enough, regardless of what "types" of compels they are

it seems like it is something that takes a lot of conscious effort and practice

Pixie

Explaining this all in the paragraph I would like it to be is hard. :P

@trogdor Is it better now? P:

trogdor

09:14

yeah it looks better now

it is just one thing, but I don't think you want to go into excessive detail of all the mechanics in just one example system that apply XD

I just wanted to point out that compels had more points to them that were relevant than just GM compelling PC

Pixie

Yeah. xD That was a good point.

Pixie

09:43

Posted it up. We'll see how many times I edit it, but that's inevitable. :P

trogdor

yeah

looks like it was immediately accepted too

Pixie

Nah, that's someone else's answer. xD

trogdor

err yeah

lol

I just hadn't looked at the question and thought no one else answered yet

Pixie

I figured someone would beat me to it. They usually do. xD But I wanted to post it anyway.

trogdor

yeah, honestly, when I post an answer there are usually at least 3 others posted already

the point of it, in my opinion, is answering with a perspective, and more importantly, information that no one else has actually used

Pixie

09:47

Yeah. If I don't feel like my answer is substantially different, I don't post it.

trogdor

if no one else answered yet that is automatic, but it's still just as important if you think the other people answering missed something(s)

in this case, I think your answer is better just because you actually bothered to use examples

Kvirii's isn't bad, that isn't the point

but I do think your answer has something new/different in it

Pixie

Thanks. :D Yeah, the examples were why I went ahead and posted it, really. I worked hard on those. xD

I'm not sure why I was writing my PF crow's nest example as "if," though, when it actually happened. :P

trogdor

ah

well it might be more credible that way (IE mentioning that it actually happened), since you can site it as an experience

Pixie

That, and it was needless extra words to write it like that.

trogdor

ah

needless extra words, I need to work pretty hard on those

I am not entirely sure I can always prune them out even after that XD

Pixie

09:56

I'm always working on it. =w=

I've come full circle: I started out too wordy, then I went in so far that my writing became utterly sparse and mechanical, then it ballooned out again. At the very least, I'm a decent editor. Once I've dumped a bunch of extra words on the floor, I can vacuum them up pretty good.

trogdor

huh, I just went back to a bunch of my answers and edited something on one of them,...it wasn't even that big

but I got an upvote soon afterwards

Pixie

I'll likely wake up tomorrow, look at my answer, and go, "oh no, I do not need half of these words" and, in classic form, burinate them. :P

trogdor

lol

Pixie

Maybe someone noticed the question/answer who just hadn't seen it before.

trogdor

yeah

BESW

10:02

@Mala Hi!

trogdor

it isn't necessarily connected, I am partly just surprised at the possible coincidence

Mala

Good morning everyone

trogdor

that asnwer already got the most upvotes I ever got, but it's been a bit over a month since I posted it and only a little less than that since it stopped getting votes

and it's a 4E question which by itself would have led me to believe people weren't looking at it much anymore XD

morning

I think it's just hard to dissociate the edit with the confirmed attention it apparently still has

Pixie

@Mala Hi!

Mala

Nothing much, just wanted to see what's happening with the RAW drama

;)

Pixie

10:07

@trogdor Sometimes I really want to go back to my most-upvoted answer and edit it to tighten it up. However, I feel like they're not strictly necessary edits, so I've refrained. xD

trogdor

@Pixie for this one I actually just saw that a minor thing I thought I had already put in was not actually there, I had not closed a parenthesis

Pixie

Oh, yeah. Can't blame you there.

eimyr

11:22

@BESW Hi!

BESW

@eimyr Yawp.

eimyr

I took your advice about prepping another Courtly Intrigue and grabbed a copy of House of Bards.

For someone who does not need the fluffy bits about a setting etc. it has surprisingly little content.

BESW

That's the trick with Worlds of Adventure: the fluff and the mechanics are kinda the same thing. Read the NPC blocks as treatises on PC creation, rather than as worldbuilding fluff.

eimyr

Oh, I meant actual fluff. The parts where they describe a city and who's who

Which is fine, unless you already have your ideas.

BESW

Ah, yes.

Worlds of Adventure is a bit inconsistent in that regard.

Masters of Umdaar has barely enough world fluff to get you going.

eimyr

11:26

Also, they lacked one thing I have been wanting - some elaboration on how to address courtly authority, it's foundation and effects. Luckily it was inspirational enough for me to work it out myself using their very limited example.

@BESW and Umdaar is something I would really need a hand with to stylise properly

They added a Social Stress track based on Rapport.

BESW

Last time I designed a setting that would lend itself really well to courtly intrigue, nobility was roughly defined as "Descended from one of the businessmen who financed the city's original building, or someone rich enough to buy their way in."

eimyr

I think it's a good idea to get you started. But what if a player is very rich or a noble with some authority?

BESW

I've got two answers for that.

eimyr

I managed to work it out to a "if you pay a stunt, you can upgrade it to something better than just knowing people"

BESW

Narrative justification: Even if you're rich or noble, without Rapport nobody's gonna pay attention to you.

Mechanical justification: Take a stunt which lets you key Social Stress off a different skill.

eimyr

11:30

and then you may have an Authority track or a Wealth track, which overrides the social stress.

Seems my conclusion was the same

BESW

But remember, House of Bards is a game about allegiances and betrayals, and the clash of strong personalities.

eimyr

But Courtly Intrigue doesn't have to be. HoB is a tool for me, not a goal.

BESW

It's a story about politicians, not about businessmen or kings.

So yes, figure out what your story is about and key Social Stress off THAT skill by default.

eimyr

@BESW How would you model access to manpower?

BESW

Depends on how you get the manpower and what its role is.

I just recently made a vampire who is also the prince of a village of weretigers.

His village of weretigers is represented as part of his high concept, and as a stunt which lets him automatically succeed with style at one thing if he sets his clan to accomplish it, once per session.

You might instead have a skill like Henchmen which lets you attack and overcome in certain contexts.

Last Fate session every zone in the Apocalypse Hive had the aspect Swarming with termites. The giant termite NPCs got +1 on all their rolls whenever they were in a zone that was Swarming with termites, and the PCs could use whatever skills they felt appropriate to try and clear zones to remove that aspect and deny their enemies the +1.

Or you could just use Contacts or Wealth to create an aspect like Froth-mouthed fanatics or Cold-blooded mercenaries and use that to justify various effects and bonuses.

eimyr

11:48

makes sense

BESW

The LCD solution to this sort of thing is usually "Create advantage to make an aspect."

Not always the most elegant or accurate, but it's rarely a wrong choice.

eimyr

thanks

I need to run though

ttfn

BESW

"Confusingly Jargonistic" would be a good name for a band with Ron Edwards, Paul Czege, and Vincent Baker.

The Oracle

0

Q: Pre-made comments: A resource-gathering & workshopping thread

Pre-made comments are awesome. They're also super powerful tools. Let's workshop some new ones and improve the old ones! You've probably seen pre-made comments[i] used across the site by moderators, both diamond and not. They're efficient and help reduce the busywork of moderation[ii], but they'...

BESW

12:05

Oh look, there's context.

BESW

12:59

Fen diagram https://t.co/YAB7YCaRkA

Tweeted by MooseAllain on February 28, 2016 at 12:30 PM

nitsua60

14:07

@BESW there was an extended conversation earlier about RAW; do you think it makes sense to move it to the NAB? Not that it's not fit here, but that recently the NAB has become a good hub to hit up for those who want to try to stay current on RAW discussion? (A "RAW-bar," if you will?)

@BESW "On The Tin" would be a good name for their sophomore album.

Shalvenay

14:52

hey @nitsua60

nitsua60

15:09

@Shalvenay hiya

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 how're things going?

nitsua60

Good--got a lot of work done last night. Typing up an assignment now that's not due 'til tomorrow.[GASP! A whole day ahead of the ball!] You?

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 wishing that my school project wasn't so recalcitrant

nitsua60

@Shalvenay Like my dad always said: "You can wish in one hand and s*** in the other; see which fills up first."

Oblivious Sage

@nitsua60 I recommend wishing for toilet paper.

nitsua60

15:15

@ObliviousSage Even in that case, I think the aphorism holds =)

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 yeah -- :P will have to call Atmel on Monday and see if there's an official piece of programming hardware that supports the thing, or a FAE I can talk to for that matter

nitsua60

15:30

You may recall, my son thinks it'd be fun to play Minecraft, so he bought me a pickaxe for Christmas.
I've got him out on our back hill right now laying out a square meter with string and sticks, and we're going to (in time) excavate a cubic meter.
I expect him to learn many valuable lessons:

3

(a) what a cubic meter is,

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 :P

nitsua60

(b) how much a ton really weighs,

(c) that daddy's sense of "fun" is vastly different than his,

(d) that Minecraft the profession is one to be respected.

Shalvenay

(e) don't forget the shoring!

Oblivious Sage

For some reason that reminds me of this:

2

nitsua60

@Shalvenay (I'm only expecting one cubic meter's progress. If it goes beyond that, I suppose I'll have to learn about shoring.)

Quentin

16:28

Does anyone know of a nice collection of pictures of faces suitable for flicking through and going "Oh yes, the NPC looks like this"? Something along the lines of paizo.com/products/… but in a convenient digital form.

nitsua60

not *ndr, I suppose?

Quentin

@nitsua60 *ndr? I don't recognise that term.

nitsua60

(I'm using a wildcard to indicate both Tinder and Grindr)

(aren't the ones where you get pictures of random people and swipe to indicate if you'd like to... 'meet' them?)

Quentin

Ahh. Maybe if I was running Monsterhearts :) I was hoping for something with a bit more in the way of fantasy dress and races.

Oblivious Sage

Yes, those are the ones. It would never have occurred to me to use those that way.

nitsua60

16:36

I've never used them--just heard about them on NPR--but when you said "faces suitable for flicking through" my mind went there....

eimyr

20:42

@nitsua60 You are now my favourite parent on the internet.

BESW

21:41

→ 135 messages moved to Not a bar, but plays one on TV

BESW

23:25

Sometimes I think about reviving Tweets to Campaign By.

His arrival was foretold in the ancient murals... #cats via http://deathandcatses.tumblr.com/post/140140041170/assflower-his-arrival-was-foretold-in-the https://t.co/VYmHiTt6ti

Tweeted by wunderkamercast on February 28, 2016 at 5:24 PM

nitsua60

23:55

@eimyr Aw, shucks. (I'll be sure to print this out and show it to my son while we're ricing our hands of blisters!)

BESW

During which I assume you'll be playing "Misery Is the River of the World."

Transcript for