TRPG General Chat

BESW

11:07

And now there's a ghost zombie Decepticon.

And both the primary antagonists have stabbed themselves in the chest with crystals.

The ghost zombie Decepticon is making T-Rex roar noises.

Sandwich

Hmmm

I love ghosts

But I don't understand how a robot could become a zombie

It would just be a malfunctioning robot

BESW

CRYSTALS.

Sandwich

So they aren't transformers anymore because crystals?

I'm confused.

SPArchaeologist

@BESW So now Berem Everman is in Transformers?

BESW

Live Cybertronians stabbed with dark energon get a power upgrade. Dead Cybertronians infused with dark energon by a stabbed Cybertronian instead turn into mindless zombies under the stabbed-guy's control.

SPArchaeologist

11:12

@BESW the Zero Virus!!!!! How nice!

Sandwich

Hahaha took the words right out of my mouth

They're mavericks now

Best bring in Mega Man X

He's great with that kind of thing

SPArchaeologist

Nothing new here :P

or even beter

Sandwich

Yeah that is better

SPArchaeologist

That said.... considering the great use Capcom is doing of the Megaman franchise, maybe selling it to Hasbro would increase our chance of getting a new game.

(or Pinkie Pie hiding under a Mettaur helmet in one episode)

Sandwich

Hmmm

I think giving it to Inafune to make more games would be best

Just give him creative control

Mighty No. 9 is looking pretty fine

SPArchaeologist

11:25

@Sandwich Considering what Capcom managed to do with MMX, MMZero and Legend, he is better alone.

Sandwich

Don't forget Mega man Battle Network

They turned that from an RPG/Card fighting action game that required strategy to a 3rd person chip-them-up

BESW

Transformers Prime missed the opportunity to have a zombie planet. [sad]

SPArchaeologist

@Sandwich Well.. cut part of the game outside japan: Check

don't release MMBN 6 in Europe: check

ending changes: check

yep, you are right.

Sandwich

I don't really want a 3rd person chip-them-up

I want at least NINE cells to move around in

Not three

If you're going to only have three cells then whats the point of even having cells

SPArchaeologist

That what you obtain when you decide to end a series and then remake it with some changes.

Sandwich

11:30

Slugbox you beautiful bastard

Did it again

Ending it wasn't the problem

It was the changes they didn't really think about implementing

And exactly what that would do to the formula they built up in the original games

SPArchaeologist

You want to know the funny thing? The best Megaman game released in the latest years may actually be....... MegaPony

Sandwich

If you change the structure of a game you have to redesign the elements of said game to reflect the design changes

That's why the weapons in Super Castlevania four were so weak

SPArchaeologist

That would require... gasp.... thinking

Sandwich

Because you could just do everything with your huge ass whip

SPArchaeologist

@Sandwich Snes Castlevania? Rondo?

David Reeve

11:33

not rondo

Sandwich

Super Castlevania 4

David Reeve

iirc extra credits did a whole episode about how cv4 shouldn't have had subweapons

or the subweapons should have had more utility

because the screen space was so small relative to the size of simon's whip, so the idea of a weapon being useful because of range was out the window

(among other things)

Sandwich

Egoraptor did an episode of Sequelitis on it too

SPArchaeologist

@DavidReeve .... thanks I suppose. I had removed that from my mind.

David Reeve

i might be thinking of sequelitis lol

SPArchaeologist

11:36

I managed to have myself remember Rondo as the only SNES Castlevania. Now I will have to start bad memories removal again.

David Reeve

rondo was the bad one

SPArchaeologist

Actually, Rondo was the PC engine one.

David Reeve

the best part of rondo was the intro to symphony of the night imo :p

SPArchaeologist

Compare the pc engine version to the snes bad port, then return :P

The Oracle

0

Q: Downvoted answers stay grayed-out when hovered over

Answers downvoted to -3 or less are shown grayed out, but they're supposed to unfade when you hover the mouse over them. Except it doesn't work here on RPG.SE. (It does work on most other SE sites.) Please fix this, o' great CSS wizards of SE.

Sandwich

11:42

I don't understand this garbage shooow

We Bare bears?!

What

Why don't you just make more episodes of stuff people actually like.. Like Adventure time.. and Regular show...

David Reeve

i like we bare bears

SPArchaeologist

@Sandwich desist. Understanding corporate marketing is not something men should attempt.

Sandwich

The only funny thing to happen in that show so far is the Pigeons having a drug cartel

It's almost as bad as Gumball, but at least it uses animation for things instead of live action backgrounds..

David Reeve

it's so easy to merch though

you make 1 bear plush, and then color it 3 different ways

bam merchandizing

gumball also has its moments, definitely not the worst thing they've made in the last decade

Sandwich

What would you consider worse than Gumball

Is the question I have to ask here

David Reeve

11:50

total drama island

johnny test

out of jimmy's head

wikipedia.org/list_of_cartoon_network_shows_made_before_flapjack

doppelgreener

lots of things, I enjoyed gumball and the live action backgrounds were great :P

David Reeve

they do a lot of neat animation tricks

Sandwich

Johnny Test was alright, Total Drama Island was awful. I don't even remember "Out of Jimmy's head" so it must have been reeeeally bad.

Can you put your link in the form of a link please David?

doppelgreener

as i understand, the original concept was to have a school for cartoon individuals to prepare them for the animation industry, but somewhere along the way they dropped that concept, kept the characters and aesthetic, and treated it as a legit world

David Reeve

not a real link lol

SPArchaeologist

11:52

@Sandwich Total Drama Island had basically the AVGN in it Sadly, that was the only good thing. That, and the Iron Man battle in season 2(3?)

David Reeve

@doppelgreener most of the side characters in gumball were from failed pilot episodes that never took off

doppelgreener

@DavidReeve nice

David Reeve

they were supposed to have their own shows

always a neat thing about gumball

Sandwich

The characters in Gumball are so garbage

That's my problem with it

A Sunflower, a Piece of toast, A.. peanut moose?

What in all of the

doppelgreener

@DavidReeve was that a thing that happened in real life, or a background for the plot?

@Sandwich yes

David Reeve

11:54

that's a real life thing

doppelgreener

that is great.

David Reeve

the animators on gumball all brought over characters they'd pitched for their own shows

doppelgreener

ha, lovely :D

Sandwich

Its too bad none of the characters have character

Probably why their shows weren't made =\

David Reeve

they're good enough to be side characters

Sandwich

11:55

80% of the characters in gumball fit into the "Stupid as bricks" stereotype

Nicole seems like a good character

The anger thing is funny

And Larry is a great character

That dude is pretty much the god of that town

He must have like 32 PhD's and a time travel machine

doppelgreener

I agree with Nicole and Larry being great, but suggesting the characters don't have character is kinda immediately falsifiable.

@Sandwich He is just overworked.

Sandwich

Lazy Larry

SPArchaeologist

While I must admit that I don't really follow American animation, but well... I had the strange impression that many series have these problems, not just gumball

David Reeve

gumball has this problem because its writing is pretty weak

Sandwich

The concept of Dodj or Daar is pretty funny as well

( OR IS IT )

Though they don't really keep to the theme of having to play the game until they finish it in one episode

Which kind of breaks their canon

doppelgreener

12:00

@SPArchaeologist yes, a tremendous amount of animation is kinda crummy

but there's also a whole lot of very good stuff, like Steven Universe and Gravity Falls

David Reeve

it's gotten better than it was a few years ago

and it's significantly better than it was in the 80's

SPArchaeologist

@doppelgreener also.... no offense intended... but do someone ever understood WHY they seem to think that "Bad animation quality == funny"

Sandwich

Gravity Falls wasnt cartoon network though

I think that was Hasbro

Or disney

David Reeve

disney

doppelgreener

@SPArchaeologist you're gonna have to be a bit more specific there than sweeping generalisations

Sandwich

12:02

It was still a great show

Great writing, good characters, sense of wanderlust

Great setting

Random humor that doesn't screw it up

doppelgreener

@Sandwich I was not aware this was limited to Cartoon Network

Sandwich

Well the subject has been all Cartoon network shows until Gravity falls was mentioned

SPArchaeologist

@doppelgreener While American animation seem to always have preferred simple drawings, sometime they seem to be made bad on purpose.

let me try and find some sample

doppelgreener

@SPArchaeologist i'm gonna say coincidence, there are great shows with theoretically bad animation, and terrible shows with fairly good animation

Sandwich

Examples?

Of what you'd consider one of each of course

David Reeve

12:04

shin chan but that's because of the dub

Sandwich

Thats not really a CN original show

David Reeve

yeah but the dub was all adult swim

Sandwich

That's adult swim port-overs

Adult swim is actually a different studio than CN

David Reeve

home movies

doppelgreener

Can we talk about animation in general and not limit it to CN :U

This wasn't ever explicitly about CN and it's probably more productive to not suddenly introduce that constraint

David Reeve

12:06

it's on cn and they work in the same building

it quacks like a duck

Sandwich

Well what would you consider to be a good show with bad animation and an awful show that has good animation then dopple?

David Reeve

how good would you say ed edd n eddy's animation was? cause that show ruled

Sandwich

I'd say that was Middle of the road

sillyputty

Hullo all! =)

David Reeve

good morning

Sandwich

12:08

And that show was pretty great

sillyputty

When we say 'good animation', do we mean good drawing/art? Or actually the process of good animation? Cause you can have a stylistically simplistic artset that is still expertly animated.

Sandwich

A combination of both

doppelgreener

@Sandwich Aaaaaaaaany afternoon kid's show with a crap plot that's terrible. The recent Iron Man series was barely passable but had great animation. Good show with bad animation might be south park, depending on what criteria we're using for "bad animation."

BESW

Good show with bad animation brings Exosquad to mind--the animation was cheap Saturday morning fare, which did the stories and characterisations a vast disservice.

sillyputty

Mmm. The old old old Looney Toons had fine artwork, and good story, but terrible actual animation, off-model animation, old Disney had "rubber hose" animation styles and repeated much of their work. Even classics can have poor quality in certain given areas.

Sandwich

12:11

There was a really bad super hero show that came on

And baby looney toons

Both those were awful

sillyputty

Tiny Toons?

BESW

Bad show with good animation... some of the Marvel Anime lineup probably qualifies.

SPArchaeologist

Well, I don't want them all to be at Makoto Shinkai level...

David Reeve

i wouldn't hold anime on a pedastal either

not when sword art online exists

all animation has good and bad shows

BESW

...who's holding anime on a pedestal?

doppelgreener

12:14

i'm not and i get exposed to a lot of it

there's good and bad anime just like anything else

and absolutely extraordinary anime just like anything else

most of the worst stuff never makes it to air, like anything else

sillyputty

I am. The pedestal is angsty, shiny, has big eyes and some of its lines are a little awkward when translated into English.

Aaron

Good morning

BESW

There's a lot of subjective concepts being thrown around with the weight of objectivity here.

Aaron

Anime discussion. Dives into chat to catchup

David Reeve

very little anime discussion, more animation in general

BESW

12:17

The anime jag may be my "fault," as I mentioned the Marvel Anime lineup.

(I enjoyed their Blade miniseries; the rest was sorta flat storywise for me, but it all looked pretty shiny.)

sillyputty

The old Batman animated series was exemplary.

BESW

But so much of it is subjective.

SPArchaeologist

5 Centimeters Per Second Trailer HD

►

BESW

I like the animation style of the contemporary Nickelodeon Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles TV show; it's got an "almost claymation" feel that appeals to me, the digital animation feels more "solid" than most CGI in that bracket. Apparently a lot of people think it's awful.

Sandwich

Top tier animation would probably be anything Miyazaki makes

Worst tier would be stuff like Food Fight

Middle-ground would probably be like Ed, edd, and eddy

BESW

12:21

From what I remember of EE&E, the animation style fit the show's tone perfectly.

SPArchaeologist

@Sandwich Believe me, I think Makoto from a pure graphical viewpoint tops that

BESW

A lot of the success or failure of visuals are going to come from their appropriateness for their subject matter.

sillyputty

@BESW Like all artforms.

Sandwich

I'd put catdog down there with worst

doppelgreener

@BESW Yes it does!

BESW

12:22

The loose, sketchy, fluid and imprecise feeling of EE&E's animation helped sell me on embracing the logic of the world they lived in.

David Reeve

@SPArchaeologist what about watanabe?

Aaron

@SPArchaeologist God I remember seeing that in 1080p in an AMV. My jaw literally dropped I was just so amazed at the fluidity of the movement.

Sandwich

@BESW For me it was the Jawbreakers

Hahaha

BESW

Contrast the animation in an otherwise brilliant film, Run Lola Run.

It throws me out of the piece completely, breaking my engagement with the main character's plight.

That animation is also loose, fluid, and sketchy, but that's all wrong for a film that invites us to pay attention to detail because its plots hinge on precise timing and coincidence.

doppelgreener

(^ run lola run's animation)

BESW

12:25

Thank you.

SPArchaeologist

Anyone remember Samurai Jack? That had a pretty simple art style. But it fitted the show. And you also had the tower episode.

David Reeve

samurai jack was amazing

doppelgreener

@SPArchaeologist yessss.

BESW

SJ's animation is reminiscent of paper cutouts and woodblock prints, reminding us of both the cultures and story modes it's drawing on. SJ is a legend, and its art style is stylised to reflect its self-consciously fictive stance.

sillyputty

I never saw a lot of it, but I always remember being a little unnerved by the animation in Chowder. Particularly how fabrics didn't...move? Like...something weird was going on with clothing patterns in that show.

David Reeve

12:30

chowder was crazy

Aaron

@sillyputty That is a simi popular thing now. I don't like it much either.

It's like Fabric is a window that just shows repeating patterns as people move around

doppelgreener

I think that animation technique you're describing is kinda neat.

SPArchaeologist

@sillyputty How was that "horror/humor" show with the dog called? Same problem

David Reeve

courage the cowardly dog?

Aaron

@SPArchaeologist Courage?

SPArchaeologist

12:32

that

BESW

I do enjoy it when it's done well.

Aaron

I loved that show. Absolutely terrifying to a kid.

SPArchaeologist

I loved the nutcracker episode.

BESW

Hmm. I wonder if Dark Fury and Aeon Flux shared any creative talent.

...yup, both are Peter Chung.

Aaron

So navigating away from kids shows a bit. A Scanner Darkly

Here is the trailer which shows the animation style pretty well

doppelgreener

12:35

oh man, i still have to see that one

I'd forgotten about it.

Aaron

@doppelgreener It's freaky as hell

Amazing watch

SPArchaeologist

Anyway, I think I got the perfect example of "bad" animation style (while it was done on purpose too).... PPG and PPGZ

I don't know if it is just me, but after seeing PPGZ I can't really image Blossom & co drawn in the old style.

Aaron

ppg didn't have bad animation did it? I thought that was more of a style choice? I can't speak about ppgz cause I didn't know it was a thing.

Sandwich

PPG was a bad animation thing for me as well, I don't think their animation fit the show at all

doppelgreener

are we deliberately still sticking to CN or is that just a coincidence?

and no, PPG didn't really have bad animation at all

Aaron

12:39

Someone brought up CN but I think it is mostly Coincidence

BESW

I'm not!

Aaron

Hunter X Hunter.

I love that anime

SPArchaeologist

As I said, I don't really mean "Bad" as "poorly made/skipping frames etc".

BESW

I think Dark Fury's animation style made it feel a lot more like a film in the Dune or Lexx canons than a Riddick film.

Aaron

The animation isn't anything special but the storyline is.

BESW

12:42

But more than that, because of their production process different scenes in Dark Fury feel like they belong in totally separate films.

Aaron

@BESW It looks similar to the dead space animation The first one. The second one had a different style if I remember right.

BESW

They effectively had a handful of independent directors each responsible for a handful of scenes, and it shows.

SPArchaeologist

I mean that I don't really understand why American animation sticks to character designs like Dexter, Ed, Courage and such. The only ones that seem to go for a somehow more "realistic" draw style seem to be Marvel/DC ones.

(and anyway, I prefer these PPG)

BESW

@Aaron Hmm, true.

The Dead Space films' animation choices didn't feel influenced by their themes or tone, though.

Whereas Dark Fury feels very deliberate overall, despite the multi-director hiccoughs.

Aaron

@SPArchaeologist Japan puts out so much of the "normal" anime style if they tried to compete they would probably lose so they do their own style.

Sandwich

12:45

@SP Those do look really good

Aaron

Marvel can risk doing the more realistic style because. It's Marvel. If it sucked everyone would still watch it

Sandwich

I think they fit the characters a lot more

Aaron

Is jojojo still the badguy in that?

Or no it was mojojojo

jojojojojojojojojojojojo

how many Jo's? his name is worse than Banana

doppelgreener

Mojo Jojo

Aaron

Thank you.

BESW

12:48

@SPArchaeologist I have no idea what you're talking about.

Aaron

@SPArchaeologist I like bubbles and uh... Blossom but the other one looks off somehow like she doesn't fit. I suppose that may have been the point though as she is supposed the be the "emo" one right?

David Reeve

mojo jojo's bizarre adventure

BESW

Contemporary American animation is extremely varied.

Aaron

@BESW what is that second one?

BESW

@Aaron Casey Jones from the current Nickelodeon TMNT TV series. I mentioned it earlier.

Aaron

12:49

@BESW Oh cool. I may have to look that up.

Speaking of TMNT I liked that movie's animation style.

SPArchaeologist

@BESW Don't know the second one, the third one is a movie and those seem to be often using the realistic style. First one.. yep, you got a point - but that is from the "old age"... I was thinking more of the new stuff...

BESW

Umm.

SPArchaeologist

and also, that probably is because I don't live in America and we only get the "Simple drawing" shows

Aaron

Big hero six was awesome.

BESW

@SPArchaeologist Is the "old age" five years ago?

And since when don't movies count as animation for the purposes of this discussion? We're already talking about Dark Fury and Dead Space.

Aaron

12:51

@BESW Scooby doo is older than that but is still going because of popularity.

SPArchaeologist

@BESW Do you really thing that they would suddenly decide to do a new Scooby "season" and suddenly change the art style to something like Edds?

BESW

I'm just saying, you're making claims about American animation (which includes the all above), and supporting it with decades-old examples from a very narrow segment of the animation scope.

doppelgreener

@Pixie Good morning! Animation discussion is happening.

BESW

SPArchaeologist

@BESW No, I was asking if the sensation I had from living in another country is actually somehow real or we just keep licensing just the "simply drawn" stuff.

Pixie

12:54

@doppelgreener Hi! Of course it's when I'm just popping in a moment before work. XD

Sandwich

I actually really liked A Pup named

It was pretty interesting

SPArchaeologist

Because in the latest year the art style I saw is just Chowder, Gumball, etc...

BESW

@SPArchaeologist Then, my response is that American animation is a wide, diverse field that includes all sorts of styles.

Sandwich

The best episodes of SD were the ones with the bonus characters though

MavericktheBroken1

Hello :)

SPArchaeologist

12:55

@BESW So, yea, we are just buying them based on the look and the marketing idea "this art style means it must be for kid! buy it!"

BESW

You may also be getting a filtering effect from block purchases, like channels with a particular audience/ethos.

For example many contemporary kids' shows are using a particular set of CGI tools. Shows produced by the same house with the same tools will look similar.

SPArchaeologist

Maybe, we get batch of stuff from the same resellers so...

BESW

One of the reasons I like the current TMNT show, artistically, is that it's set itself apart from other shows which use the same toolset.

SPArchaeologist

Funny thing is that often the better ones just disappear halfway.

BESW

(Compare TMNT 2012 with Beware the Bat, for example.)

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