TRPG General Chat

doppelgreener

12:00

@AlexMitan where's it say that? there might be a deeper context you're missing, because it certainly wouldn't say "don't take +2 to rolls".

Alex Mitan

Okay.. thank you... and what about another that gives +2 on flashily creating advantages when setting fire to omething?

doppelgreener

@AlexMitan Sure!

We had a player with something like that in one of our games.

A pyromancer with +2 on forcefully creating advantages to intimidate people with fire.

Alex Mitan

oh...okay.. I've never run a session, all I've been doing is building all sorts of NPCs and potential plot hooks and locations

doppelgreener

or something like that.

Alex Mitan

so I'm not well-versed in the actual balance

doppelgreener

12:01

Then you should forget about what is OP, and use the formulas they give you and see how they turn out.

Fate's going to give you a lot that might seem like it's OP.

Alex Mitan

but a stunt which gives you +2 on attacks with your main approach seems that way

I know it's a different kind of RPG

and I resonate with it a lot

but someone doing MUCH more damage than everyone else... I've come to pretty much hate D&D after a few sessions with it, and everything we're not ok with seems to be fixed by Fate

doppelgreener

@AlexMitan it's not, it's standard fare. +2 is nothing to sneeze at, but stunts are meant to be giving you something like that.

@AlexMitan In Fate, damage is not the be-all end-all.

Alex Mitan

but I've yet to actually have a proper session...so far I've only had a short one-on-one with her

BESW

+2 is the benefit of one aspect invoke.

That's significant, but not out of anyone's reach.

Alex Mitan

randomly set in Skyrim of all places, and it went super smoothly with literally no prep... so I love Fate, I'm just concerned I'll fail to make it as good as it should be to my players

which includes getting a good feel what stunts should be like

BESW

12:03

The trick is to write stunts so they don't get used every turn but come up at least once in most conflicts.

trogdor

also, specifically for the +2 to sneakily attack opponents who are unaware of her

that;s generally only going to hit once in any fight

Alex Mitan

hmm...okay, thanks a lot

doppelgreener

So, here's a thing about that.

In D&D, +X to damage is always going to come in handy.

trogdor

part of the balance of stunts like that is that said stunts have some form of limit on how often they can be used

Alex Mitan

she's also got a large burn scar on her left hand (which she actually got in a D&D session a while ago when she blew up a house), think I could do something about that?

doppelgreener

12:06

In Fate, you can have difficulties involving dealing with harsh elements, negotiating with people, uniting tribes, clearing pathways, finding your way through the mountain-slopes or deeproads, confronting an ancient library... none of which involves anyone getting hurt necessarily.

Alex Mitan

(also, yeah, I'm cringing thinking how much better those sessions would've gone in Fate)

BESW

@AlexMitan What story do you want to do with it? Being scary? Being ugly? A symbol of her past?

Alex Mitan

@Besw more of a clear indicator what kind of person she is - a balls-to-the-wall, living-for-the-spectacular-then-maybe-regretting-it kind of person

doppelgreener

In D&D, someone can pour their resources into combat and come out feeling pretty sure they've made a dependably solid investment. (They have!) In Fate, you can do that, but you'll be less effective at everything else, and that "everything else" can matter.

Alex Mitan

her Trouble is Balls To The Wall so

BESW

12:08

Sounds like a break-the-rules stunt would be good.

doppelgreener

ha, that's a pretty great trouble

BESW

> Because I [describe some way that you are exceptional, have a cool bit of gear, or are otherwise awesome], once per game session I can [describe something cool you can do].

Alex Mitan

okay... thank you... I don't want to seem dense or something... I've just been stupid enough to go for D&D and end up being heartbroken looking at just how much money and time I blew on it and I wanna escape that

BESW

No worries! This stuff takes some getting used to.

doppelgreener

and some unlearning of things that worked in D&D but won't help so much in other games!

Alex Mitan

12:10

despite usually being quite an improvy, strong presence, I had an actual nervous breakdown on our second D&D session because of just how much stuff I had to keep track of and help the others with

I snapped when everyone had to level-up, especially the spellcasters

doppelgreener

wow :( good switch then

Alex Mitan

I spent so much time drawing the maps on a2 paper.. making mob cards for everything...spell cards... cheat sheets... stacks over stacks of tables.. even though I hated the fact that I have to keep track of so much

there were only about 2 weeks in between the sessions but everyone already forgot how attacking works

so much of a struggle to find a way to handle things in-game..

BESW

@AlexMitan I'm reminded of one of my first players.

Alex Mitan

sorry, I'm ranting, what I'm basically saying is I regret that being so hyped up on starting the hobby I ran head-first into something which was all wrong for everyone involved, and the way my players played was 100% fate

BESW

I'm glad you found Fate so quickly!

...I spent seven years in D&D.

Alex Mitan

12:15

well... it was only quick in terms of time, I did HEAVY research

I documented myself on at least 20 RPG systems, judging by the folders for each I now seem to have

BESW

We had fun, but it was wrestled out of a reluctant system.

Alex Mitan

oddly enough I ignored Fate at first, when I was "into" D&D

I just... I feel so bad having spent so much time and feeling on getting stuff ready for D&D, I have huge stacks of papers to help me, and I kept making more, without looking at the obvious fact that needing X to help me survive Y should make me question my affiliation with Y

BESW

D&D has heavy cultural inertia.

Alex Mitan

I needed half of my house to store the crap for it, whereas I can and did pack Fate in two clipboards, a case of dice and a stack of post-its

and since I live in the middle of nowhere, I had to make my own dF set, and re-markering the lines is like a ritual to me now

BESW

D&D has sufficient ontological weight as the flagship RPG system that it imposes its own sense of "normal" on the entire medium.

@AlexMitan Have you considered blank stickers?

Alex Mitan

12:19

yeah, but as I looked more and more into Fate and as I worked on my setting I started pretty much hating D&D... so much seems to be so provably wrong with it

BESW

And yes, I've come to look suspiciously at any system I can't run with a handful of dice and some index cards.

Alex Mitan

I did, but I'm afraid it might influence the shape or something

I've seen someone call the grid "the bane of RPing"

wax eagle

pst 3 sets for $11 and prime shipping: amazon.com/Evil-Hat-Productions-Fate-Dice/dp/1613170629/…

BESW

@AlexMitan That's a bit extreme; it can reinforce poor habits, but by itself the grid is a neutral tool.

Alex Mitan

honestly, in D&D, which nobody can tell me is not a combat-focused system without a good set of arguments on their shoulders, the combat seems HELIUM-weak, what with everyone having a HUGE miss chance on everything they do

BESW

12:22

@AlexMitan Lets keep the language a little lighter.

Alex Mitan

yeah, I wouldn't go THAT far, but counting squares isn't exactly immersion fuel

oh, ok, I'm sorry

BESW

[amused]

doppelgreener

i get it

Alex Mitan

my first language is so grotesquely vulgar, that English cursing seems like a natural part of it, so yeah..habits

my apologies

BESW

'sokay. We just try to keep the chat light as much as possible.

Every system has flaws, and unfortunately D&D labours under franchise and marketing requirements which other RPGs do not, which make it harder to get out from underneath the weight of its history.

doppelgreener

12:24

I moved to D&D, and now variously play or GM in BESW's group, and I did it for a few reasons: primarily that it was low-prep and let me come up with things immediately as needed, and also primarily because it valued things outside combat just as heavily as things inside combat. Social encounters were the most fun parts of our D&D 4e games, and the parts with no rules support.

Alex Mitan

mhm... still, what kind of a balance is that? Lvl 1 characters having around 10 health, Lvl 0,5 mobs hitting for around 8 dmg, everyone has a huge chance to miss everything

THANKS

doppelgreener

But lesser for the reasons that I can have the character I want to have immediately without any balance fiddling or working out what predesigned features I need to use, and because dealing with D&D character creation was overwhelming.

BESW

You may find the links and games in my profile interesting/useful.

doppelgreener

Less so in D&D 4e.

BESW

(My group really likes cthulhu-dark and roll-for-shoes.)

Alex Mitan

12:27

The most memorable moment they had was when the super-dreadful-and-mysterious warlock got caught in a snare and started dandling upside down, with his totally-not-a-dress fluttering downwards, and instead of helping him down my thief from previously grabbed his hands and started shaking him until everything from his pockets rained all over her

"my" thief... I mean the thief

I'll check them out, thanks :D

@doppelgreener, you said you play in BESW's group? Online or..?

BESW

@AlexMitan His living room of players Skypes with my living room of players.

sillyputty

@BESW I just read your Dwarven Poke of Vorpal Death story. It was everything I wanted it to be and more.

doppelgreener

@sillyputty Was that the one about the dwarf walking through town on 1hp after suffering critical wounds in a burning house?

trogdor

yes

that is the exact one

he has no other dwarf dieing from a vorpal poke stories

or at least not as far as I am aware

BESW

If I did, they wouldn't really be worth telling when I've got that one.

trogdor

12:32

yeah

sillyputty

Yea, and the more experienced of you please, correct me if I'm wrong, but it so far seems to me that Fate is a much more free-wheeling system. You really shouldn't be concerned about balance that much, as everyone is pretty much working from the same economy. Plus, it's entirely about collaboratively creating the story anyway!

I mean, I like me some D&D, but Fate does a lot of things so much better.

BESW

I've started to look at Fate as a kind of structure for supporting free-form play.

sillyputty

Yea. That makes a lot of sense. Kinda like if Fiasco could be turned into a long-form campaign.

BESW

Fate mechanics make decisions more efficient and promote dramatic choices, keeping the play from bogging down.

trogdor

that does seem to be the case, as long as you do actually stick to any of the rules that do exist in Fate, it isn't too concerned with being unbalanced

Anaphory

12:38

I still don't know why I find it so difficult to run fate. It should be right up my alley.

David Reeve

it's a lot of interpretation

Alex Mitan

Honestly I love RPGs though... they give me so much, a creative outlet, a way to really meaningfully get together with people I like, they help me and my friends develop some stuff they'd be insecure with... I mean just in those two sessions that we've had, despite the circumstances not exactly being the best, a couple of them came up to me saying that they're much more comfortable with English and with being social after that

Anaphory

I'm fine with interpretation.

My Fate campaign works okay, it just feels it would be awesome if only we got the fate point economy to work.

BESW

@Anaphory I'm still figuring out the Fate point economy.

Alex Mitan

I mean, the thief girl was super shy at first, and by the end of the second session she became so comfortable with the group, that she took over hosting while I needed to cool down and get my stuff together

BESW

12:40

I mean, I understand the theory, but it's not coming easily in practice.

Alex Mitan

It's interesting to study the social effects RPGs have, for me

Anaphory

@BESW Aye!

BESW

@AlexMitan This is also something I've had experience with.

Aaron

Good morning

Anaphory

Good afternoon!

BESW

12:41

[wave]

Alex Mitan

Helloooo

sillyputty

\o

Alex Mitan

Also, people becoming more comfortable with English without realising, under my eyes? That's pure juice to me

sillyputty

BESW has experience with everything you could ever wish to ask.

3

trogdor

lol

doppelgreener

12:42

@sillyputty there are some games for which that is pointedly not the case :P

BESW

@sillyputty Except *world.

Alex Mitan

Yep, amazing individual

David Reeve

@Anaphory what are you having trouble with re: fate points?

doppelgreener

@BESW GURPS?

BESW

@doppelgreener Not worth speaking of.

David Reeve

12:43

@BESW what is the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

Alex Mitan

@Besw

wait, no, how do I make sure a tag works? a @Tag

sillyputty

@doppelgreener I'm under the assumption that he and BBS are two sides of the same alien-intelligence controlled coin that lords over the hivemind of moderation on this Stack.

doppelgreener

I have seen evidence to the contrary!

I am pretty sure BESW's hive-mind is still limited to Guam.

sillyputty

Lies and slander!

Anaphory

@DavidReeve The game runs with very few rolls usually, and I rarely do compels, so maybe 6 fate points change hands in a session, with four players and an average refresh of 3…

BESW

12:44

@AlexMitan Type @ and the first letter, and you'll be able to hit tab to cycle through the folks in the chat whose name starts with that letter.

Alex Mitan

Thank you!

BESW

And you can click on the bent arrow on the far right of a line to respond directly to that line.

Anaphory

@AlexMitan (it did work!)

Alex Mitan

@BESW is it fine if I introduce the players to the system while making their sheets on the first session? With D&D I had to make them one-on-one and it was SUPER tedious but in Fate it didn't take me more than 5 mins for the thief (I'll just call her Z.)

David Reeve

@Anaphory the fate point economy is intentionally subjective, so your number of compels may be less than another group's. that's just how it works afaict. in your game fate points may be worth a lot more than in a game where the gm is constantly compelling players

BESW

12:45

@AlexMitan I usually introduce the system as we do chargen and play, yes.

Alex Mitan

Also, is it a good idea to vaguely emulate some things from their D&D characters if they want to keep the same concept?

Anaphory

@DavidReeve I'd say less, because they come up less

David Reeve

the two times i've played fate i've tried to compel every character at least once per scene

BESW

@AlexMitan Yeah! Just translate the D&D feature into narrative, and then find the proper Fate mechanic to represent that narrative.

Alex Mitan

Don't Fate Points come mostly from having your aspects invoked? Compelling that often seems like it'd completely throw off the story by having SO much trouble happen to get points that nothing would progress

BESW

12:47

Don't try to go straight from D&D mechanic to Fate mechanic; that way lies madness.

Alex Mitan

Noo no no, filtering it through narrative of course

Anaphory

@DavidReeve Once per Scene? Oh, I have difficulties with once per session. I think I need to plan my sessions better, was thinking of getting Atomic Robo and take some inspiration on how to run more concise Issues…

BESW

@AlexMitan Depends on the group, really.

sillyputty

@Anaphory Woops. I usually think it's best to compel when it would give the character an interesting choice.

BESW

And a big issue is whether or not there's a sense that plot should not be modified.

sillyputty

12:48

But the key I think is to just allow interesting choices to be present regardless of what was preplanned

Alex Mitan

I'm just thinking, there are things to salvage narratively, the warlock guy's high intimidation or charisma whatever being translated into some sort of demonic communion Aspect and a supernatural-flavoured intimidation Stunt..that sounds fair to me

David Reeve

fate's a system where trouble and action are always happening, so i don't think there's such a thing as too much trouble

BESW

Generally, Fate does best when there's no plot planned.

David Reeve

^^^^

Anaphory

@sillyputty I really cannot plan too much.

sillyputty

12:49

Yar

Anaphory

@BESW In that I plan far too little.

BESW

The best formula I've found so far is this:

David Reeve

no plan survives contact with the players

Anaphory

There is no plan.

There's a world. Philosophers do stuff. Gods do stuff. Enter the players.

BESW

The party has a goal which seems pretty simple to achieve. We then use compels to place obstacles in the way of achieving the goal.

Anaphory

12:50

@BESW Hmm. might work.

BESW

It works on small and large scales.

Anaphory

(Note to self: Don't press “enter” after “@B-tab”.)

BESW

Last week there was a goal of "get to the sixteenth floor of this building without encountering any of the giant carnivorous worms roaming the halls."

Alex Mitan

Oh, that is amazing

sillyputty

Yes. Example: Player A has rival established in aspects. Group is going to encounter random group of NPCs they need to interact with/convince. Who cares who they were before, we give player A a choice: compel to see if he'll allow the rival to be the leader of this group of NPCs

BESW

12:51

The easy solution was to take the fire stairs. So I compelled the PC to be wearing heels in her hazmat suit.

Alex Mitan

the way you use compels... I feel that I have so much to learn BEFORE I run a session it's intimidating

Nobody's going to see it, but it is

sillyputty

@BESW Amazing.

Love it.

Anaphory

Beautiful. I'll try to keep that in mind.

BESW

@AlexMitan Ask your players for help.

sillyputty

@AlexMitan You'll do fine! It's all a learning experience anyway.

David Reeve

12:52

encourage your players to compel each other

(though you should compel a lot more as well to keep the fate flowing)

BESW

I can't keep track of everyone's aspects. If they want Fate points, they can look for interesting self-compels.

Alex Mitan

I learned a lot from what felt like D&D "Taylor Swifting" me

sillyputty

I...can you unpack that term for me?

=)

BESW

Doppelgreener is especially good at looking for self-compels.

lisardggY

Most of our compels deal with personality choices. "You're going to let that NPC be in pain? When your aspect says you're obligated to help people in distress?"

We haven't done many reality-altering compels, really.

It takes getting into the mindset.

doppelgreener

12:54

@BESW at least now that i'm becoming more comfortable with how failure can work

sillyputty

@doppelgreener Fail forward!

doppelgreener

@sillyputty no, well, it was nothing to do with that

sillyputty

Oh. Well fail forward anyway!

doppelgreener

Like, we had an adventure where there was a scientist holding onto a piece of equipment we needed. There were so many things Stellata could've done to destroy our ability to do that cleanly and send the session careening off the rails.

But this is Atomic Robo. That's how it's supposed to go.

Alex Mitan

@BESW I was... erm... real young as a RPGamer when I first saw it, I got all euphoric and threw all of my love at it and then it turned out to be this harsh, impossible to deal with, elitist thing and now I'm rambling about how heartbroken I am but also how much I've learned from our break-up and I found this new system and to hell with YOU, D&D, etc etc

"Taylor Swifting"

doppelgreener

12:56

Thinking to what goes on in Atomic Robo, I should be pretty comfortable turning the whole thing into a fiasco and total disaster at least for a while. I just have to make sure it's fun and the other players are on board for it.

sillyputty

@AlexMitan That's a great term for an easily recognizable situation/emotion.

@doppelgreener Is Stellata the name of your character?

Anaphory

It's just weird. In other games, I often think along the lines of “In Fate, here I would compel/invoke this … aspect”, and in actual Fate, I don't…

doppelgreener

@sillyputty Yes

Alex Mitan

In real life, I often think along the lines of "You missed such a good compel, ugh, you could've made it so interesting"

usually when people are being really boring, that is

Oh by the way, @BESW, you're GMing right?

"usually"

BESW

@AlexMitan Usually, yeah.

Alex Mitan

13:01

Are your settings or scenarios made up by you or taken from somewhere?

BESW

Both.

sillyputty

@doppelgreener I like her! Looking over the character sheet brings up questions though. I'm really only familiar with Strands of Fate. Does anyone know the differences between that and Fate core?

BESW

Typically, I borrow heavily for the initial conceit and then re-upholster it.

Alex Mitan

@BESW So how much time do you really spend preparing? What do you do then?

Sorry if my volleys of questions are bothersome, let me know if it's so

sillyputty

@BESW Otherwise known as the "Everyone who ever created anything ever" technique =P

BESW

13:03

Last week's session was Primeval episode 2.2 shunted into our like-Atomic-Robo-but-with-magic-too setting.

Alex Mitan

@doppelgreener Stellata's amazing, what system is she for?

BESW

@AlexMitan Depends a lot on what I'm prepping for, it varies a lot.

Last week's session I had one NPC, a couple aspects, and a general notion of the sort of obstacles they'd face.

Our game is designed to be episodic so players don't feel pressure to come every week or not at all.

That means I can't do a lot of heavy prep for the whole campaign.

I mostly just prep one week at a time, but when I've got something elaborate and show-off-y I start thinking about it well ahead.

Like, at some point in the future there's going to be a session in a spaceship that I want to be very creepy: so creepy we'll be switching systems from Atomic Robo to Cthulhu Dark for a night.

Alex Mitan

Hm, okay... I assume I'll be a bit more relaxed with the prep after the first session

BESW

Cthulhu Dark takes a lot more thought for me to prep well, and I want to tailor it to the specific PCs.

@AlexMitan My first RPG experience ever was GMing a D&D 3.5 campaign. I showed up with a giant stack of notes, and fifteen minutes later my players were nowhere near any of my prep work.

Alex Mitan

That's amazing! I hope I'll be able to reach that kind of GMing some day

About the system switch of course, not the note stack

Heh

BESW

13:10

@AlexMitan Most of what I know about GMing I've learnt by not knowing what I couldn't do, and biting off more than I could chew with a group that was eager to experiment and quick to forgive.

Alex Mitan

Oh, and also (seriously, though, tell me if I'm being annoying)
what do you use to represent players, NPCs and fate points?

BESW

For Fate points I bought a bunch of cheap plastic poker chips (and later got Campaign Coins official Fate tokens).

sillyputty

We used poker chips for Fate points, and felt no need to use anything to represent npcs or players

BESW

For everything else--if the group is all physically present, index cards.

doppelgreener

@AlexMitan Atomic Robo RPG. It is the latest Fate game, I think, based on Fate Core. And yes she is! It took three tries to bring her to that point. :)

sillyputty

13:12

Unless you mean character sheets...which was a single 8x11 piece of paper

BESW

Write aspects and other mechanics on index cards and keep them on the table where everyone can see 'em.

doppelgreener

@sillyputty I have no experience in that one, but I can answer questions about Stellata from Fate Core / Atomic Robo's context.

BESW

The only "location" notekeeping I've ever felt the need for is if there's more than two or three zones: then each zone can be its own index card and their position on the table shows how they're related.

Otherwise, everyone can generally keep track of what's where.

doppelgreener

I had help from some people in this chat bringing Stellata to this iteration, like Pixie and BESW and trogdor.

BESW

I don't use zones a lot; like other Fate mechanics --except for the Fate point economy-- they've best brought in only when the story needs them.

Alex Mitan

13:15

I'm thinking of using dice to represent living things, I have a rationale in my head that I hope will work as well as I imagine: the problem with miniatures is that they restrict imagination to what's on the table, turning the attention away from the mind..cloud..thing above the table where things are happening and towards the actual physical table...
so I'm hoping that by using dice I can have everyone feel represented in a sweet way, but not transferred completely: Z. will probably take a dark, purplish die, the barbarian guy will take a large red one, a mage might take a sparklier blue o…

so that they have their own tactile representation, but not replacement for their mental image: they're obviously not a large red cube, but they feel something FOR the large red cube that they feel FOR their character

BESW

I'd be inclined to just rip up an index card and write names on the bits, if I needed that sort of thing.

Alex Mitan

True, but I feel that it wouldn't make them feel as unique in the representation, when we might need a representation

BESW

...have the players draw on the bits of paper.

I had fun with that when I introduced Marvellous Initiative to 4e.

Alex Mitan

Mostly I'm just throwing around theories to justify pouring my currently 88-strong collection of dice :P

Is it the "You go next, because you're still [Ready]" thing?

BESW

....It never occurred to me to count my dice.

@AlexMitan At the end of each person's turn, that player decides which character that hasn't gone yet will go next.

Alex Mitan

13:19

Yep, yep, that's it

BESW

Atomic Robo uses it as default for initiative too.

Alex Mitan

Also, my other point with dice is with the swarms and stronger NPCs in combat: having a group of bandits pe represented as six dice with the 1 face upwards, while their chief is represented by a three dice with the 1, 2 and 3 faces up for stress

Basically my point is that stress boxes can be easily represented with dice, and a pile of stress boxes is an entity with a very clear bunch of stress left

BESW

Ummm.

That's not how stress tracks work, though.

If I've got OOO stress and you deal me one stress, it becomes XOO.

But if you deal me three stress, that's OOX.

Alex Mitan

isn't it how they work for mooks though?

one entity is the 6 bandits, with a single stress each before they're taken out

BESW

(I think my Internet burped. Oops.)

That... is actually kinda complex and unclear depending on which iteration of Fate you're using.

Alex Mitan

13:24

and another entity, still a mook, is the chief, with other kinds of stress boxes, maybe a 3 5 5 5 if I want

BESW

I'm still confused by exactly how it works, frankly.

David Reeve

i tend not to give my weakest mooks stress

Alex Mitan

I think I'm not expressing what I mean very well, I'm sorry, I'm quite tired

BESW

It's 1130pm here. I should go to bed myself.

Alex Mitan

4:30 pm, but I have a lot on my hands and a lot on my mind.. thank you so much for all the help and inspiration though!

same goes for everyone else.. this is a great place to hang around and get inspired :D

BESW

13:27

Glad to have ya.

Alex Mitan

http://story-games.com/forums/discussion/11348/microdungeons-i-roll-to-see-if-i-have-shoes-on/

Is this Roll For Shoes though?

BESW

Yup.

wax eagle

@AlexMitan that's the original, yes

Alex Mitan

You said something about "games you can run with nothing more than a handful of dice and index cards"... anywhere I could find a list of things like that?

BESW

Most of the games in my currently-playing entry in my profile count.

Alex Mitan

13:31

Okay, will check out! Thank you again!

BESW

ttfn

Alex Mitan

Good night! :D

BESW

I look forward to coming back in the morning and seeing what the others share with you when I'm not dominating the chat.

sillyputty

Does Fate Core use the whole consequences at the end of stress tracks thing?

Alex Mitan

Hah, okay, I need to rest a bit as well though, as well as figuring out if I can get Amazon merch over here

Lord_Gareth

13:41

@BESW Still present?

If not I thiiiink I can ask @waxeagle. Were you familiar with 4e's mechanics, Wax?

Magician

I was! I was! Pick me!

Alex Mitan

By the way, guys, in Fate, how do you treat attacking someone from stealth? Passive opposition or what?

doppelgreener

@sillyputty Yes, to the extent that you have, say, 3/2/1 stress boxes, and anything you can't soak up with stress flows through to 2/4/6 consequences.

I was also!

Lord_Gareth

@Magician I'm curious - purely intellectually, as I object to the practice myself - as to if bootstrapping is a thing that exists in 4e. I can provide a definition if you're not familiar

Magician

I suspect I know what you're talking about, but please do.

doppelgreener

13:43

@AlexMitan First: think narrative. If you're dropping from the ceiling, the guy doesn't see you coming. If you're dashing out from the bushes, maybe they have a chance to hear you or see you coming just in time. Then, model. In the first case: maybe take the stealth aspect for its bonus, maybe declare the guy just doesn't roll and defends with flat +0 with physique.

sillyputty

@Lord_Gareth Yes, a definition please.

@doppelgreener Okay. I think SoF is similar then.

doppelgreener

In the second case, maybe he gets to dive out of the way - he gets athletics, the stealth aspect is used for its bonus.

Lord_Gareth

@Magician Bootstrapping is the practice (in D&D 3.5 mechanics) of arranging your build so that a feature qualifies you for itself. For example, using a temporary source of Sneak Attack to qualify for a prestige class that requires Sneak Attack and advances Sneak Attack, when later dropping that source when the PrC has provided the minimum SA progression for itself.

This works because 3.5 never asks "where did you get this?" only "do you have it?"

(This is also the backing behind the explicitly-supported concept of using items to qualify for feats)

Alex Mitan

Hmm, okay... I can see a bunch of the situations being "no way he can react", like a thrown dagger or a sneaky firebolt from the dark

sillyputty

@Lord_Gareth I suspect this can happen. A multiclass feat that gives you (for example) The Hunter's Quarry Class Feature, then you take a feat that requires the Hunter's Quarry feature, then retrain the multiclass feat.

Alex Mitan

13:45

isn't a defense of 0 a bit low though? Maybe a 1 at least.. Z is going to get stealth bonuses anyway

doppelgreener

@AlexMitan You really need to play the game to get a feel for the numbers.

Defense of 0 is defined as mediocre.

Alex Mitan

Ugh, I knooow, I'm sorry

Magician

There's barely any requirements like that in 4e. At most it's "be an elf" for paragon paths, etc. The feats that require class features generally improve those features, so getting rid of them would be pointless.

David Reeve

why not give them the ability to defend at a penalty

doppelgreener

S'fine.

Against a good (+3) attacker, mediocre is pretty, well, mediocre.

Lord_Gareth

13:46

@sillyputty That sounds like you end up with a broken pre-req rather than a bootstrap.

doppelgreener

But that attacker could roll -2 for a total of +1, and the mediocre attacker could roll a +2 for a total of +2 defence.

(-2 to +2 are the most common roll range, with +0 the most common)

Lord_Gareth

@Magician Aye, and on top of that broken pre-reqs =/= boostrapping

doppelgreener

@Magician Be an elf, be level 10.

David Reeve

imo, saying that stealth = no defense would be the wrong approach

Magician

Unlike the insane 3.5 thing of planning your entire build 1 to 20, you can just sort of wing it in 4e, and not screw yourself. Partially because everything can be respecced.

doppelgreener

13:48

4e also has... I think... no temporary granting of features.

Alex Mitan

@DavidReeve mechanically or narratively?

Magician

@doppelgreener Can't think of any, but eh, lots of materiel out there.

David Reeve

@AlexMitan both, imo

mechanically it'd be a headache for saying "am i stealthed or am i not?" and having to have a set of rules in place to say when the no defense would apply

whereas you can already give a penalty or bonus on a roll for invoking a trait or advantage

Alex Mitan

@DavidReeve Okay.. but if you get a heavy crossbow bolt fired at you from not-too-far-away while you're asleep how is that a defense?

David Reeve

that's different because that's not stealth

doppelgreener

13:50

@Magician yeah they're definitely going to be an extremely exceptional odd thing out

Alex Mitan

or if the marksman is hidden and stealthy and you're just standing wondering about life

sillyputty

@Lord_Gareth Okay. Well that's the closest thing I could conjure up. I'm not sure that there is, in fact, much bootstrapping to be had in 4e then.

Alex Mitan

staring at the sky, kind of zoned out, while the marksman is stealthing it up to 11

doppelgreener

likely from dragon magazine or adventurer's vault or another thing with a sort of "you didn't really think through what this meant, did you" wording / design problem as a common theme in its items and powers and whatnot

David Reeve

sneaking up on someone, they could still get lucky and get out of the way purely by accident, or they're actually more observant than first anticipated

doppelgreener

13:51

e.g. those gauntlets that grant resistance to "a keyword" @_@

David Reeve

and if you have the rule of "stealth means no defense", do you have a separate rule for if you're fighting, say, spiderman?

(or anyone with the insane ability to avoid stealthy attacks)

Alex Mitan

@DavidReeve Hmm... fair points though... so are you suggesting a +0 defense, or some defense penalty? Or..

sillyputty

@AlexMitan Case by case adjudication is part of the fun. =)

David Reeve

i'm suggesting that if a character is stealthy it might mean the enemy has a -2 to defense

again, i think stealth works better as being an advantage than for creating separate rules for it

because if you have separate stealth rules, you'll need to elaborate on the edge cases, and at this point you might as well be playing d&d

sillyputty

^ yup

Alex Mitan

13:54

Hah, okay, I see now... Yeah, doppelgreen was right about me needing to play the game to get a feel of it, because my actual experience is laughable

And as much as I want to make it all better for my players, it'll work against them if I just theorise endlessly

doppelgreener

Fate Core doesn't generally work in minuses though.

so if anything it's +2 to the attacker.

David Reeve

so a +2 to the attack yeah

same net change

sillyputty

@AlexMitan Learn by doing! It'll be a grand experiment. =)

David Reeve

i like fate because the rules are very vague, so you can do a lot of playing by ear

introducing extra rules and stunts just complicates that

wax eagle

@Lord_Gareth intimately

Alex Mitan

13:58

Yeah, I'd just be ruining its strongest point I guess... All of my group is basically gamers and we can get stuck on things like that for now...

David Reeve

aspects and advantages are so versatile. try using them over making up your own rules

wax eagle

@Lord_Gareth there is an explicit rule that prevents you from retraining something that was a requirement for another feature you've picked up. So like if you MC Rogue to get Sneak Attack, and then take a paragon path that requires rogue or sneak attack (usually rogue), you can't retrain the MC feat

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