TRPG General Chat

BESW

00:52

house martin griffin

Pureferret

@BESW ...I chose you

doppelgreener

01:45

@BESW that is adorable

can these be a thing once the paranormalpocalypse hits pleasepleaseplease

i'm imagining like, a bunch of species get struck by MAGIC

house martins become tiny adorable griffins.

BESW

Also metaphorical pigeons.

doppelgreener

02:56

xD why are they metaphorical?

BESW

Pigeons are called "rats with wings."

Shalvenay

yep

doppelgreener

but... i get it... but...

Adeptus

Do you get notified when something you've downvoted gets edited?

Shalvenay

/me wonders if he'll get 100 upvotes on his "I don't play V:tR, but..." answer on the vampires vs. touchscreens question

Miniman

03:07

@Adeptus Nope

Adeptus

Hm. OK. I got a downvote on that Animal Companion question, I assume because it was "what happens in 5e? And what about earlier versions?", and I only gave a 3.5e answer. Now I've added a 5e part.

doppelgreener

well, i just got done with a giant edit i was figuring out how to approach for days

Miniman

@Adeptus Sadly, there's nothing to suggest to the downvoter that they might want to look at your answer again. On the other hand, it turned my deliberate lack of vote into an upvote, if that helps.

doppelgreener

@Adeptus yes, that was me, and that was why

i don't think the question should be asking about prior editions at all if it's trying to find out what the case is in 5e

after all, every other edition's rules are irrelevant

if they're relevant, someone will mention it.

Miniman

03:27

@doppelgreener It seems like a pretty poor question for a few reasons, but it did ask for the previous edition stuff. Downvoting an answer based on that seems a little harsh.

BESW

I'm not sure if Greener himself holds this view, but some citizens feel that "The question asked for a poor answer" is not justification for a poor answer.

Helping to improve the question so that it's no longer poor would, in that mindset, be the appropriate first action.

One of the weird things about the Stack, though, is that voting is sacrosanct. So long as you're not spam-voting, your motives and rationale for voting are privileged and protected and no one can with any authority say that you're wrong to vote up, down, or not at all on any post. I can downvote answers that have an odd number of words which start with vowels. I really really shouldn't, but I could.

doppelgreener

@BESW i don't know if i hold this view, but that's effectively my motivation in this case. "Can my animal companion keep attacking in 5e?" doesn't get solved by saying "well, here's what 3.5e says."

i probably don't have that view because the more immediate concern is that the question shouldn't be asking for a poor answer at all; if it does it needs attention

my basic expectation is: people come to us with problems, answers that don't solve those problems effectively aren't good answers (sometimes evaluating this is objective, sometimes it is subjective), answers that are going on a tangent from a small section of the question fall into this bin and otherwise ignore the problem are low quality.

i.e. the last type isn't going to the effort it should, because it's misunderstood the question or isn't bothering because someone else got it

probably later this afternoon if i don't get a better idea of why that request is there, i'm going to edit that question to not ask for other editions as a source of justification

Magician

03:48

Would anyone here care to participate in a *World/PbtA musing? I've been having strange ideas rumbling in my head.

BESW

...Philadelphia Behaviour Therapy Association? This I want to hear about.

Magician

//backs away slowly//

BESW

Or is it a post-apocalyptic setting with Islamic protagonists?

Magician

How'd you get that one?

BESW

"Praise be to Allah." (Al-ḥamdu lillāh.)

Magician

03:56

That'd make for an interesting Powered by the Apocalypse game: PbtA (PbtA).

BESW

pbuh.

Magician

Powered by Uriah Heep?

(Going to see them this Friday :D)

BESW

Not quite.

Magician

It does seem strange to abbreviate that.

BESW

...yes.

BESW

04:13

Anyway, what's your musing?

Magician

Ah, yes, that.

In AW-spawned games, rules have a unique relationship with the gameplay, at least from the players' point of view. Unlike most other games, where at some point players would go "I use X ability" or "I do X action", in AW they are urged never to think in such terms. Instead, they are to describe their actions as they see fit, and sometimes those actions would trigger a move.

BESW

I've picked that up, yes.

Shalvenay

yeah -- I like that

Magician

At which point the rules will briefly jump into the purely narrative proceedings, dice will be rolled and outcomes picked from a list. After which the game will resume with its narrative flow. Rules introduce a potential change in story's direction.

BESW

I really want to see this in action.

Magician

04:19

One of the common criticisms of DW in particular is lack of difficulties. You always roll your move as-is. The potential consequences of succeeding or failing depend on the context, but the roll stays the same, and that's a feature.

BESW

Having run Cthulhu Dark and Pilgrims, I find this understandable but see how it might be hard to wrap your head around.

Magician

This leads me to conclude that dice are not really used as conflict resolution mechanism, but as pacing mechanism. There'll be roughly 1/3rd of good outcomes, 1/3rd of bad outcomes and 1/3rd of compromise outcomes. It's not about how good you are at a task, it's about having a mix of successes and failures in a game.

And yes, wrapping one's head around this takes a while. Having run a few games of tremulus I'm still not sure I'm doing it "right".

BESW

@Magician Interesting.

Magician

But if dice are a pacing mechanism that doesn't really care about skills and stats, what do those stats mean? Having high Strength means players are more likely to seek Strength-related solutions to their problems. This works well in FAE where PCs almost always using their highest approach is a feature: it provides color to their actions and changes their outcomes. There is a disconnect in AW, though.

BESW

That's very much a storyteller point of view, and not at all a realist or simulationist one--unless one is simulating stories.

Magician

04:23

Yes! And that's why some people vehemently hate AW.

Shalvenay

yeah

Magician

While moves connect to stats in an obvious manner, they are still strict and unbending (on purpose!). That causes players who wish to utilize their high stat to maneuver into a situation where they're going to trigger a move reliant on that stat. Which is contrary to the purpose of the game of not thinking about mechanics.

BESW

How do the stats connect to moves?

Shalvenay

@Magician -- I find that is a good feature of FAE, yes, although something that doesn't work in every case

Magician

@BESW Most moves are written as "When you try to do X, roll +Stat"

DW has Defy Danger which lets you use any appropriate stat, I don't think AW has that. tremulus doesn't.

BESW

04:28

So, your likelihood of success scales with the stat you're rolling but not the challenge you're facing.

Magician

@BESW Correct. The challenge you are facing determines potential outcomes of your success or failure (in a purely narrative, GM discretion kind of way).

This also means that a common advise for making monsters tougher in DW is to require Defy Danger rolls to get close to them so one can actually Hack and Slash.

Which I'm not entirely sold on.

doppelgreener

@Magician I have an alternative proposal.

Magician

BRB, critically low caffeine levels in bloodstream.

I'd say "critically high blood levels in caffeinestream" but that's just way too gruesome.

doppelgreener

> Agent Smith: Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world.

> But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from. Which is why the Matrix was redesigned to this: the peak of your civilization.

Character attributes are a mechanism for enforcing limitation, dice are a mechanism for enforcing a lack of control, and both work together with other mechanics to enforce realistic and regular chances of failure.

Overcoming challenge in the face of adversity is a major source of fun. Winning because you say so is not. Those mechanics exist to enforce the same sort of adversity we find satisfying to deal with - difficult, not succeeding perfectly, having to constantly overcome challenges, failing sometimes but never in such a way that you are obstructed completely.

Incidentally the same sort of stream of difficulty is what induces a state of flow.

Mechanics exist to enforce suffering and misery, which gives us a sense of realism, which anchors us down to earth and makes it feel real, and succeeding in the face of this is fun and empowering.

Magician

04:46

I agree with all of that, just think that AW "cheats" to get the same feelings of overcoming adversity. It's no coincidence the most common outcome of a failed roll is "GM makes a move". You are due for something bad, and it's up to the GM to decide what it'll be, a bear or a lost torch.

Which is not at all a criticism of AW, but a shift in one's point of view that is perhaps needed to run it well.

David Wilkins

In 5e, a 60 foot cone, wher is this described?

Oh wait...its a arc-length equal to its distance from the caster?

A 60 foot cone is 60 feet wide 60 feet from the caster....ugh

Magician

05:05

...does it mean it's triangular?

David Wilkins

Looks so

Miniman

With base equal to height, yeah

David Wilkins

But with an arc that is radially centered on the caster with a 60 foot arc centered on the furthest point being the middle of the arc

Wtf

Magician

...and now I want someone to make a bunch of geometric puzzles in the flavor of spell areas of effect. Help wizard Geometricus place a fireball that'll hit at least 3 goblins. What maximum spread angle should burning hands be in order to avoid hitting either the fighter or the rogue?

Miniman

@DavidWilkins Not an arc

Magician

05:08

Educational D&D!

David Wilkins

How is . It not an arc?

Miniman

Like you said earlier, it's a triangle

David Wilkins

So there are point less than the rang away that don't fall within the range?

Miniman

@DavidWilkins No, actually there are points further than the range away that do fall within the range

12

A: How do I map a 15' cone to a 1" grid?

Right now there isn't an official rule. According to Mike Mearls and the Wizards Team that will be an option spelled out in the Dungeon Master's Guide. However this has been an issue for 3.5, Pathfinder, and 4e. You can use this diagram from the Pathfinder SRD to make a ruling on applying a spe...

David Wilkins

Wait - a pathfinder answer applies to 5e?

BESW

05:13

> A tarrasque emerges from the ground 100 miles East of Halfport and moves toward the city at 20 ft/round. The nearest 17th-level druid with miracle prepared is 500 miles North of Halfport. If the druid hears about the tarrasque half an hour after it emerges, what creature should she turn into in order to arrive at the city before the tarrasque does?

4

David Wilkins

Ok, this helps ... lol

Miniman

I guess the important thing is - draw a line with length equal to the range

Then at the end of that line, draw a perpendicular line with length equal to the range, with its midpoint on your first line

David Wilkins

Oh...its always a right triangle

Miniman

Yep

David Wilkins

Sweet

Miniman

05:16

Maybe I should have led with that :)

David Wilkins

Hah ... a right triangle with a radial arc centered on the caster with equidistant points on the radial circle that intersects at the two non-hypotenuse radii

Passes out

Miniman

Trying to think of it in terms of radius from the caster isn't super helpful for this

Magician

> Two tribes of goblins, one (currently) friendly to the party and one hostile, are fighting in the caves. Unfortunately, it's dark and all the goblins smell terrible. Each fireball cast by a wizard takes out exactly 10 goblins. Given there are 50 friendly goblins and 50 unfriendly goblins, what is the probability of there being only friendly goblins left after 7 fireballs?

> A third tribe of demonic goblins who are immune to fire has entered the cave, numbering 50. How many unfriendly goblins will be left after 10 fireballs?

David Wilkins

Yea, its a case where "see this picture? Thats what you do" is best

Miniman

@Magician Friendly goblins is an oxymoron.

David Wilkins

05:23

What is the size of the cave?

Magician

@Miniman Fixed.

Miniman

@Magician Heh.

Magician

@DavidWilkins Doesn't matter, 10 goblins per fireball. They are packed!

David Wilkins

Can I cast a fireball where it won't hurt . My buddies?

Magician

Aye. Not a fireball placement question, a goblin combinatorics question.

David Wilkins

05:25

Ok

So the answer is 1:1

Magician

(also, entirely off the top of my head, inspired by the multitude of black and white balls in sack questions, no need to actually answer it).

David Wilkins

Oh crap

Forgot the third tribe

When do the immune goblins arrive?

Magician

The third tribe makes it seriously non-trivial, at least to someone like me who barely remembers this stuff. Because they don't get eliminated when picked which means you can't just use a formula.

@DavidWilkins in the first round, if you actually want to have a go at it.

David Wilkins

Being immune to fire, this makes sence, statistically

6 and 2/3 goblins are targeted per fireball

After 7 rounds , that means 46.62 targets

15 of those arei mmune

So. After 7 fireballs 31 goblins are dead, odds are 10 were friendly, 21 were either demonic or unfriendly

3 more rounds means more of the samr, 13 demonic/unfriendly die, and 7 frien d ly die

BESW

> A green dragon etches a chessboard 160 feet long and 160 feet wide into the floor of his lair. Each day he orders twice as many kobolds to stand on one of the squares of the chessboard as he ordered the previous day. On the first day, he orders one kobold to stand on the first square. On the second, he orders two kobolds to stand on the second square. Four kobolds are ordered onto the third square, eight onto the fourth, and so on.
Assuming the kobolds are following 3.5 squeezing rules, on which day are they unable to fit on a square of the chessboard in the quantity the dragon demands?

David Wilkins

05:39

Ok, prolly too drunk for the last question, not even...

If I am the DM, half die, the rest scatter and attack from all sides :p

The chess board was a, ruse :p

I suck :(

BESW

> You have three travelling companions, Tom, Dick, and Harry. Tom always tells the truth, Dick always lies, and Harry sometimes tells the truth but sometimes lies. Three orks guard the entrance to the Mathemagician's tower. One stabs people who tell the truth, one stabs people who lie, and one asks tricky questions. What is the minimum number of unwounded companions you can hope to have after encountering the Mathemagician's guards?

David Wilkins

Z^x-y + X^z - Y ^x -4zXy

Where Z is the stabbed, X is the truthtellers, and Y is, the liers

Magician

05:58

@BESW A 32 by 32 chess board? Was that strictly necessary? :P

Or does it mean each chess square is 20 feet across? I guess that makes more sense, disregard me.

BESW

It wouldn't really be a chessboard if it wasn't 8 squares by 8 squares.

Magician

06:38

Ah, chess. Back in the 4e days, I once had a fight against a massive beholder happen on a Khet board, with participants able to push the mirror pieces around and the laser doing massive damage to anyone who was in its way. PCs, being crafty buggers that they are, managed to hit the poor beholder multiple times by crossing the beam over it repeatedly. It was the only time when a creature gave cover to itself.

BESW

[amused]

user61230

@Magician That's actually a brilliant use of a Khet board

user61230

I now very much want to write or play an encounter with a laser mirror room

BESW

Now I'm imagining how to model that in Fate.

BESW

07:16

Character aspect for a seasoned adventurer type: I've done this before.

user61230

07:30

That might be exactly the kind of mind game I can see my players loving.

user61230

And it'd be totally character-driven, too.

user61230

....Atomic Robo

doppelgreener

A little piece of trivia I really like just crossed my mind so I'm going to share it:

The name of Robotnik, our friendly Sonic villain, means something like slave in Czech, or someone owing labour. It's also the base word for robot. (Source: dictionaries)

BESW

Ah, yes. Rosumovi Univerzální Roboti, Rossum's Universal Robots.

doppelgreener

Yes.

But the slave mastermind has a name meaning slave.

This is the bit i like. ;)

BESW

07:47

Duly noted.

doppelgreener

That tarrasque takes 44 hours to reach the city, if it doesn't pause to do anything else.

(I think? If I did my calculations right.)

It'll take 26,400 rounds. At 10 rounds a minute that's 2,640 minutes, or 44 hours.

Does that sound right?

BESW

Seems reasonable.

So, how fast does the druid's per-round speed need to be in order to cover 500 miles in under 43.5 hours?

doppelgreener

Solution: the druid transforms into the dumbest animal he can imagine, activates his amulet of planar cleansing, and the player requests the GM leave him in a plane with less mathematics questions.

But for real, 100 feet/round.

Oh, wait, that's 44 hours.

He needs to move at (500 miles / 43.5) 11.5 miles per hour, which is 60,720 feet per hour. There's (10 * 60) 600 rounds in an hour, so he needs to move at ~101.2 feet per round.

[looks up movement rules]

(Is this Pathfinder or D&D 3.5e?)

BESW

08:09

3.5

@mawimawi Hi!

mawimawi

For Pathfinder, I'm looking for a comprehensive documentation when the DEX bonus is denied to AC (so I know when a Rogue can make sneak attacks - especially when using ranged weapons). Anyone know a source?

hi BESW!!

please ignore my question - as I did not consult a good search engine before :-( The solution is right here: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/27215/…

BESW

It's always nice to find that one's question has already been answered.

mawimawi

08:31

absolutely. and it would be nicer for the asking person to search for possible answers before ;-)

can't wait for tomorrow evening when my party will be betrayed by a guest player's character... I feel so excited about this! (especially since up until now I always have been a really nice GM, and a previous guest player was a huge boon for the party. They won't see it coming!)

BESW

Ooer. Guest NPCs are fun.

BESW

09:05

The Badgermin

David Wilkins

11:35

Flerb

BESW

13:08

Anybody here familiar with the effects of pressure on oxygen toxicity in humans?

David Wilkins

I know a little about pressure and nitration in the blood...

BESW

I'm trying to figure out the effects of a Carboniferous atmosphere on humans.

This Worldbuilding.SE question helps a lot, but not entirely: I know the increased oxygen (up to about 35%, from modern 21%) would also increase the atmospheric pressure. I'm looking up how much now.

Okay, so: let's say an atmosphere of 4.5 bar with 35% oxygen content.

David Wilkins

That's a big increase over normal atmospheric pressure

are you replacing CO2 with O2?

or just adding O2?

BESW

13:25

The Carboniferous era was marked by a massive CO2 scrubbing from enormous swamp forests.

Also, higher nitrogen levels.

(This atmospheric high crashed pretty fast, down to about 15% oxygen by the Triassic.)

David Wilkins

Ok, so consider the atomic mass of CO2 is 44, and O is 16, and N is 14. Less CO2 would be more of a negative impact on pressure than more O or N

BESW

[shrug] I dunno, I'm just quoting the studies.

David Wilkins

I'm just confused how pressure could have been so much higher than normal

well, now normal

BESW

yeah. Most of the papers I'm reading are more concerned with the chemical content and its impact on life.

The pressure only gets brought up when they're talking about flying animals.

Increased air density making it easier to get off the ground, leading to flying megafauna.

David Wilkins

That is true

BESW

13:31

Does this help? It's mostly greek to me:

From this paper.

Looks like maybe the oxygen content wasn't mostly O2?

Ping @Shalvenay because SCIENCE.

David Wilkins

From your paper:

Although an increase in
atmospheric pressure will decrease oxygen diffusivity within
tracheal systems, given the dependence of gas diffusion
coefficients on total pressure (Paganelli et al. 1975), the net
effect of elevated oxygen levels on diffusive flux is nonetheless
substantial. The elevation of oxygen partial pressure to an
atmospheric concentration of 35 %, when coupled with a
constant nitrogen partial pressure, increases rates of oxygen
diffusion by approximately 67 %. This value probably

I'm confused as to whether they are saying the overall atmospheric pressure increased, or the nitrogen level decrease at a rate that corresponded to the increase of oxygen and the decrease of CO2, leaving the pressure roughly the same, but changing what parts of the pressure are provided by which gasses

either way, it looks like at optimum levels, creatures with trachea would have up to 67% more available oxygen

So your original question, was related to toxicity?

BESW

Well, I'm now also interested in the effects of the pressure itself. Generally I'm trying to figure out what it'd be like for a human shoved into a Carboniferous atmosphere.

David Wilkins

Well, check out this page to see the neurological effects divers deal with: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_narcosis

It also mentions heliox, which is referred to in that paper.

BESW

13:48

Gotcha. 4 bar is the "significant risk" threshold, 10 bar is "crazy town gonna kill ya."

David Wilkins

oh yeah

and I would be a little more liberal since there is a chance of less nitrogen and more oxygen compounds that are less likely to have a narcotic effect

BESW

My dad was a master instructor SCUBA trainer, but I didn't pick it up myself, so I know about this stuff only second-hand.

David Wilkins

My roommate is a SCUBA instructor, I only know what I've seen on the Discovery channel

BESW

Heh.

Okay, so... moderate chances of nitrogen narcosis. Gotcha. That means... a setting aspect that can be compelled.

Which is a bit boring.

David Wilkins

Yeah, not too crazy

BESW

13:57

I may go "TV science" and have it be invocable for heightened oxygen allowing feats of endurance/recovery.

David Wilkins

That's something I was thinking about. Increased oxygen availability would mean it takes more work to get exhausted

the onset of lactic acidosis would be delayed, meaning that even very strenuous exertion would be easier to recover from

BESW

Also: two of my PCs are plant people.

David Wilkins

do they breathe CO2? they may find the opposite to be the case

BESW

Yeah, it looks like that atmosphere would repress their photosynthesis cycles.

....they may have to go for solid food, either rooting themselves or turning carnivorous.

JohnP

15:05

@BESW - Actually, you want the right side of the scale, the hyperdense which could be done just by increasing xenon.

Partial pressure of O2 increases don't necessarily mean the air gets denser, it's more related (at least from a physiological standpoint) to O2 diffusion in the lungs.

@waxeagle - I will still create a character, but my 5e gameplay may be a bit sporadic. I might have a chance to test for 5th degree in Korea next year, and I also made our top 10 World rankings in forms after this weekend. The next 6-15 months is going to be a lot of prep work.

Joshua Aslan Smith

whud up gangstas

David Wilkins

@JohnP congrats!

Nate Kerkhofs

15:24

Quick question: Are there already mobile apps that can basically replace character sheets and dice? like: you make a character, and any new items you gain, any dice rolls you make and any checks you have to do are managed by the app, so you have a bit more room at the table?

Joshua Aslan Smith

@waxeagle heres the youtube track for that cello music I mentioned awhile back as the title screen music for a game I had kickstarted which in his developer lets play videos just plays on an infinite loop

Nate Kerkhofs

and in case there aren't any of those, how would you feel about an app like that?

Joshua Aslan Smith

Jon Shafer's At The Gates - Title Music

►

@NateKerkhofs what system?

There are some software applications for PC that handle that fairly well and one or two related apps to those systems such as hero lab

Nate Kerkhofs

well, it's more of a system-agnostic question, but suppose DnD 3.0-5.0

any of those versions

but no mobile app?

Joshua Aslan Smith

Are you asking about a question you want to put on the mainsite

or you know its off topic and are asking here

I have used character apps

for 4e specifically

which worked on mobile

and they managed to avoid getting sued to hell because they used the insider database and tools and you needed to authenticate with D&Dinsider to use it

some exist but their mileage for you as a user would depend on what system they were made to support and what system you are playing

Nate Kerkhofs

15:27

oh, right, copyright. WotC probably won't like it if I develop an app myself

Joshua Aslan Smith

correct

I mean you could probably do it for 3.5 if you only used OGL published data

Nate Kerkhofs

well, that's that idea shot out of the window

Joshua Aslan Smith

youd have to go over the terms of the OGL with a fine tooth comb

David Wilkins

@NateKerkhofs there has already been one app (at least) for 5e that has been sent a Cease and Desist Order

Joshua Aslan Smith

yeah thats the issue, most of the time, for a character sheet to be anything more than a form fillable pdf it needs to know rules, rules that are part of the sold system

@DavidWilkins yeah the spell site got taken down hard

Nate Kerkhofs

15:30

I understand, they need to make money off of it

Joshua Aslan Smith

what?

David Wilkins

There's still a russian site that has all of the spell cards and monster info, but I am not linking that here

Joshua Aslan Smith

its not necessarily about selling more books (though that is part of it) but about maintaining control over your IP

@DavidWilkins good otherwise.... reported lol

Nate Kerkhofs

The plan was that I'd use my unemployment time partially to develop an open-source cross-platform mobile app that could basically remove some of the required paper and make the math easier to work with.

it would manage the primary stats, the skill checks, armor, spellbook, inventory and dice rolls

the intent was that you could use it to manage your character, and the app would manage anything involving numbers

so if you had a belt of STR+8, you wouldn't have to manually keep track of that, the app would automatically update your strength stat based on equipment

David Wilkins

@NateKerkhofs : enworld.org/forum/…

Nate Kerkhofs

15:38

Yeah, it'd be like that, but just the rules

there wouldn't be anything like items, spells, monsters included by default, you'd have to enter those manually

but you could make a custom item, and any stats you gave to that item would be factored in automatically

Maybe I need to ask if WotC can hire me to develop an official app

but that's a tall order likely

Actually, if I understand this properly, the app itself could be considered OGC, because I would only manage the game rules, not anything from product identity like items, spells, characters,...

I'm not sure though, I'd have to run it through a lawyer to be certain

or do you think THAT would make a good question? "Is a character management app that only handles mechanics allowed with the OGL?"

David Wilkins

I don't think you should ask for legal advice, no

SevenSidedDie

16:05

@NateKerkhofs Not a lawyer, but there is long, long, long precedent for 3rd-party programs/apps implementing rules but including no content, requiring the user to add content themselves.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@NateKerkhofs we dont handle legal questions here

SevenSidedDie

I could explain the copyright stuff that allows that, but the basics are that rules can't be copyrighted (only the words that express them); and end-users are not prevented by copyright from copying content, only prevented from distributing it to others.

(Long precedent, like, way before the OGL made it easier and ironically more confusing.)

David Reeve

as long as it's not for profit you should be fine

SevenSidedDie

@DavidReeve Nooo. Fine maybe in the sense that nobody would notice, but "not for profit" is not relevant to copyright stuff. Avoiding copying prohibited stuff is the only way to be in the clear.

David Reeve

what about fair use

SevenSidedDie

16:09

@DavidReeve 99.9-many-more-9s% of anything you could call a product are not covered by fair use.

@DavidReeve If fair use covers what you're doing, you can even make money doing it. Money just isn't relevant to whether copyright is violated. (It starts to matter if you're already guilty of copyright violation, in which case penalties will be worse. It won't impact the fact of guilt or innocence in the first place.)

David Reeve

law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/107

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

Joshua Aslan Smith

@DavidReeve Fair use is very murky, not something to bank on unless you are an educator/education institute expressly using it for that purpose

David Reeve

the first factor in whether something constitutes fair use

the only concerning aspect would be whether it infringes on the existing market

but wizards doesn't sell character sheets

Joshua Aslan Smith

right, so making an app for 3.5 would be very unlikely to use that as a defense and have it hold up in court

David Reeve

free = noncommercial

Joshua Aslan Smith

16:15

@DavidReeve he could make and distribute a PDF that was dumb and so long as he didnt slap a D&D logo on it he would be fine

the issue is when he has an app start to automate rules processes, he is incorporating the rules system

even some of the stuff we do at the library I work at under the guise of fair use is on pretty shaky ground

David Reeve

OGL would allow for you to use the rules system though

SevenSidedDie

@DavidReeve Free doesn't always equal non-commercial.

Joshua Aslan Smith

yes in this specific case he could use it, but how and to what degree would be in the exact wording of the OGL itself

SevenSidedDie

@JoshuaAslanSmith Yeah, but rules can't be copyrighted, at least not in the US.

David Reeve

they can be patented

SevenSidedDie

16:19

@DavidReeve True, but no patent has ever been granted for an RPG. Someone tried recently, and the USPO shot them down twice. And that was nicer than what the RPG community did to them for daring to seek patent on rules.

(Besides which, there is so much prior art in RPGs that it would be nearly impossible to find a unique, patentable rule.)

David Reeve

there are plenty of character generation tools available for free online and i don't see wizards cracking down on them

some of them even have ads

Joshua Aslan Smith

@DavidReeve which system?

David Reeve

3.5

Joshua Aslan Smith

I mean Im talking broadly about the issue, not specifically to 3.5, and with the ogl its understandable for 3.5

4e or 5e though, yeah not a good idea

David Reeve

i disagree, i think that character generators are fair use as long as you don't sell them, and maybe even if you do

and if you don't sell it the worst that could happen is a c&d

SevenSidedDie

16:25

Character generators aren't fair use, they're just not covered by copyright. As long as the data going in is user-created. Check out things like Herolab and Army Builder: they provide an engine that accepts pluggable content.

Joshua Aslan Smith

right, users can use the base format without issue or pay for the plugins to get access to all that wonderful IP

SevenSidedDie

@DavidReeve This is also true, in a practical sense rather than legal.

David Reeve

what about this ibisfightclub.co.uk/dnd

SevenSidedDie

@JoshuaAslanSmith I don't think there's any paid plugins for those two. At least, never have been for D&D.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@DavidReeve lol only the PHB1 content

David Reeve

16:29

it's still content provided by the program itself

Joshua Aslan Smith

@SevenSidedDie the "Core data for one game" with the purchase is in a sense a plugin

and you can purchase other game data as well for other systems

at least as I remember it from when I looked at using it a few years ago

SevenSidedDie

@DavidReeve I just played around with that to see what it's doing. It's just plain violating copyright, is all. They're either clueless, or hoping to not be noticed. And, the worst that will likely happen is a C&D, since WotC has no desire for the bad press that would result from suing fans.

Joshua Aslan Smith

the fact that tiefling was there was insta copyright violation as Tieflings are an IP of D&D and thus WOTC and Hasbro

in general just because it exists on the internet and you found it by google does not make it legal/safe

David Reeve

it can, however, be used to defend yourself against a copyright claim

infringements weaken copyright by definition. that's why bethesda will sue anyone that uses the words "elder", "scrolls", or "the"

Joshua Aslan Smith

@DavidReeve that one tiny 4e char builder would not protect you effectively if you made a paid app and then got taken to court

SevenSidedDie

16:34

@JoshuaAslanSmith Oh hey, that's new. (Last I looked at Lonewolf's stuff was back when Warzone was still current, which was... 1998?) But they pay IP owners for licenses, so that's why.

David Reeve

how many god damn times did i say "free"

JohnP

@DavidWilkins Cheers! :)

Joshua Aslan Smith

@SevenSidedDie right, I fully expect that paizo and WOTC get cuts from herolab and thus are okay with it

@DavidReeve then why bring up scrolls?

which was not in anyway free lol

SevenSidedDie

@DavidReeve No, that's wrong. Infringement weakens trade marks, which is why Bethesda guards "elder" and "scrolls". Copyright never weakens. So others violating it provides zero extra defense.

Joshua Aslan Smith

This discussion almost needs its own room

SevenSidedDie

16:37

(I actually really hate the three IP laws, as they currently work. I know this stuff because of 15 years of careful "know thy enemy.")

David Reeve

if you were king of the united states, how would you change ip laws?

David Wilkins

@JoshuaAslanSmith Yep

Joshua Aslan Smith

any continued IP/copyright/trademark discussion, lets take it over here...

Not a bar, but plays one on TV

I'm not a place to unwind after work, but I play one on TV.

1

SevenSidedDie

@DavidReeve Answered in the Bar. :)

David Reeve

read in bar

RobertF

16:47

Question about the Animal Handling skill in D&D 3.5 as used in a recent adventure: After distracting the guards, my Thief character jumped into a wagon carrying the loot and whipped the horses to make a fast getaway. Would an animal handling skill check be necessary in this situation? If you whip horses won't they start galloping down the road, regardless if you're a teamster or not?

SevenSidedDie

@RobertF Do you want them to just go, or to go in a specific direction (or not in a specific direction?) And, if they're a team, do you want them to go together, or is it OK for them to pull in different directions and possibly trip and break their legs? If not, yeah a check is important. :)

RobertF

@SevenSidedDie - I wanted the horses to run down the road as a team and take me away from the pursuing guards. I'm not sure if horses will instinctively follow the road when whipped (that was my assumption). As it turned out, the DM asked me to make an animal handling check, which I failed, and the horses pulled the wagon off the road.

SevenSidedDie

@RobertF Yeah, that's fair. Horses are stupid and trained to obey directions, and it takes a quality horse to know what to do without direction. Panicked horses are extra stupid. Also, horses don't care about roads, and actually prefer softer surface.

RobertF

@SevenSidedDie - Yea, I was going by cinematic assumptions here - you see Indiana Jones or Zorro commandeer a horse or wagon and off they go.

SevenSidedDie

@RobertF Aw, yeah, I see what you mean. In that case, you have a genre-expectation mismatch and you should sit down as a group and get on the same page about whether cinematic expectations are valid or not.

David Reeve

16:58

the difference between you and indie/zorro is that they succeeded at the handle animal check

:p

Joshua Aslan Smith

@robertf yeah its sort of a system level expectation of character competence

RobertF

Ha, it's a gritty campaign setting - meaning the DM gives very few free lunches, so I should have known better.

Joshua Aslan Smith

D&D 3.5 has incredible swingy-ness for that kind of thing

SevenSidedDie

@RobertF There you go then. Count it as learning from experience. XP isn't just for characters! :D

RobertF

Alas my thief was killed by the guards. :( The DM allowed me to respawn, but as a 0th level barber (hey with a fantastic coiffeur at least). It's going to be a long, hard climb up the ladder from cutting hair and bleeding customers to dungeon adventurer.

It's actually an interesting campaign - we're all starting off as virtual nobodies and have to struggle to make a living.

SevenSidedDie

17:11

@RobertF It's an interesting way to play. When you don't have much, motivations just happen 'cause you want stuff. And trying to get stuff usually leads to entertaining complications. It's a nice way to generate adventure without a railroad.

David Reeve

don't underestimate a barber

SevenSidedDie

@RobertF Oh hey, I wrote something about exactly this a while ago.

David Reeve

straight razors can get sharp

RobertF

@SevenSidedDie - And when you're dirt poor and everyone treats you like scum, it's tough to maintain that chaotic good alignment sometimes. :P

SevenSidedDie

@DavidReeve The last 0th-level barber I played was a literal serial killer. Straight razors are quite effective.

@RobertF But when you do, it's true heroism. :)

RobertF

17:16

Yes, I've been thinking about adding a little Sweeney Todd or Hannibal Lecter to my barber character if I could stomach it.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@SevenSidedDie love me some scarcity

David Reeve

craft (meat pies)

4

RobertF

@DavidReeve - nice

@SevenSidedDie - Interesting blog article - although if the DM makes things too tough for the players they may get frustrated & quit. It's a fine balance.

SevenSidedDie

@RobertF Yeah. Walking that balance is one of the core skills to develop when running these kinds of games, just like DM tactical skill is a core skill for, say, D&D 4e, but not for other games.

The last old-school game I ran I was rusty and flubbed that balance badly. It didn't see a second session!

David Wilkins

@SevenSidedDie ouch!

SevenSidedDie

17:27

@DavidWilkins Happens. On the plus side, chargen in B/X D&D is so quick that it wasn't much loss. We did get an evening of entertainment out of it in any case.

(And I got "XP" to spend on my DMing skills. That one session taught me lots.)

RobertF

@SevenSidedDie - Did the characters have heroic death scenes?

SevenSidedDie

@RobertF Really didn't. Half of them were eaten by giant horseflies in two rounds, super-unheroically. The other two PCs wandered lost in the swamp until they regained solid ground, and we ended there never to return to their story.

RobertF

Oh god

SevenSidedDie

I put a bunch of real-life "XP" into my telegraphing skills, my sandbox prep skills, and into sandbox-specific pacing skills. Very valuable session on my end! But we haven't played old-school since. :)

On the bright side though, we had had good sessions in an old-school game before that, so I know how I'd sell such a campaign next time and I have confidence I won't make a hash of it again.

RobertF

And in the best of gaming groups, players will be accomodating to DM screwups, especially if they want to recruit players for their own campaigns. :)

Another way to telegraph dangers at the most basic level in a sandbox setting is give the players a map of the region around their home base, labeled with "Goblin Den","Here be Trolls", "Karg the Red Dragon's Cave", etc. 1st level players should instinctively go for the goblin den & know that trying to tackle the dragon will be suicidal.

SevenSidedDie

17:42

@RobertF Oh how I wish more of my group would GM. It's me and one other member who do all the running.

@RobertF Yeah, that's an idea I never thought of. It was supposed to be a West Marches kinda thing where little was known beyond the border town, but townies would reasonably have at least a small map saying "Good gods don't go in the Dead Swamp!"... A minimal starting map is something I plan for next time, but I hadn't thought of putting known/rumoured dangers right on it.

Ah, I knew this had already been asked. Duplicate vote posse?

5

Q: If I design a PC for use as an NPC, how much XP should he give when killed?

As part of an early quest, my PCs are likely to face off against a wizard. The problem here is that the stat block for Mage NPCs listed in the Basic Rules has a Challenge Rating of 6, while the PCs are going to be five Level 1s. So, instead of messing with the stat block and risk weakening it to...

dnd-5e

Or not, the review queue will probably do it fine.

The answer on the original isn't great, either. I think maybe a bounty is in order...

RobertF

I suppose in reality detailed maps were a rare & expensive commodity in the Middle Ages - the PCs ought to pay through the nose for a reliable map since it could save their lives. At any rate pretty maps also add the "Oooh!" factor to a campaign since everyone likes shiny colorful baubles.

SevenSidedDie

@RobertF Oh hey, make the map price be a goal, scarcity-wise. That's a good idea. But then, even more reason to make a clear "starting area" available. I think that's also something I learned: too hardcore a sandbox is hard to start, so a few easy signposts to give it early momentum is important. Not to make an easy tutorial area, but not one of the deadliest areas. The swamp was the worst place they could have gone...

Not a bar, but plays one on TV

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