TRPG General Chat

KRyan

17:05

would like the opinions of the chat:

-1

A: Looking for a sane alternative to my DM's favorite fumble table

I strongly recommend that you urge your DM to ditch fumble and critical tables altogether. It sounds like this will be difficult to do, but you’ll find the game much improved – and, I think, so will he. This is because... Critical and fumble tables have myriad problems The Dungeon Master’s Guid...

does this constitute an appropriate "challenge" to the question? (it's barely even that since it has recommendations for even using the damn tables)

but mxyzplk has felt it appropriate to knee-jerk downvote and comment dismissively, so I want to make sure I haven't messed something up

@JoshuaAslanSmith tell me about it

@JohnP this argument is mathematically fallacious; see my answer

they are not the same

@JohnP do you do that on 5% of the things you ever attempt to do in your life?

because based on this guy's table, you would

mind you, do you think you would still do that on 5% of everything you did, if you were a legendary hero, veteran of a hundred dungeons and thousands of fights to the death with vicious monsters?

would you, in fact, expect to be more likely to "eat a foot" after gaining all that experience?

because that's what's going on here, and it's more-or-less what happens with every fumble table ever written

for d20, anyway

the system is just inherently incompatible with them

David Wilkins

is it true that PCs see far more rolls than NPCs? I see my DM rolling far more for the NPCs multiattacks than we do for our attacks

KRyan

@DavidWilkins they're pretty similar; monsters don't usually have dramatically more attacks than PCs do

wax eagle

@DavidWilkins think individual to individual

KRyan

plus PCs roll for all kinds of things that don't involve NPCs

(though those rolls are only sometimes considered in fumble tables)

David Wilkins

Yeah, other than that point of (contention?) I think the answer is approximately what I would say

Joshua Aslan Smith

17:12

@johnp critical hits are a brief moment of excitement, like hitting jackpot, that spice up the normal combat, critical fumbles have the inverse effect

having only crit hits is balanced because both sides can crit

@waxeagle that new 4e question so sad I cant answer it

David Wilkins

@JoshuaAslanSmith I agree, I have had times when I asked myself "Do I really want to attack when I know that if I fumble, I literally could kill my party member/myself?"

Joshua Aslan Smith

@kryan I upvoted you but you could pare it down simply because of the page space, not the content if that makes sense

KRyan

@DavidWilkins also, even if the DM exclusively uses monsters with lots of attacks, and none of the party does, the typical game has what, a couple dozen “unimportant” foes for every enemy who really, truly counts? the DM definitely should not be using monsters that get orders of magnitude more attacks, at any rate

so even if your argument is true (doubt it's true on average but it's conceivable for a particular table), it's not true "enough" to counteract the math

David Wilkins

@KRyan fair enough

KRyan

@JoshuaAslanSmith it does, I'm taking suggestions on how to actually do that, though, because I put a fair amount of effort into the pacing and organization of the answer to begin with

but then I am verbose

Joshua Aslan Smith

17:17

hah

KRyan

also, it bothers me that the question necessitated downvoting very-nearly every answer in it

at least the highest-rated answer is solid

David Wilkins

@KRyan that is worrisome indeed

mxyzplk

@KRyan, it's a matter of magnitude. Your answer is fine and challenges the frame - down through the end of your FATE section. Then adding another 2 linear pages of "HERE'S WHY FUMBLES ARE AWFUL" detracts from it.

KRyan

@mxyzplk I disagree, it's a common enough thing to do that I felt the need to back up my claims that they are bad

and my claim is very strong

it needs a lot of back-up

because I'm stating that fumbles are bad – not for some games, not for some tables, not for some playstyles, but bad, period

for everyone

mxyzplk

You make your point, but then you efefctively decide to hog up a couple more pages of space with the tangent. It would be appropriate if the question were about that, but it's not. So you should show moderation in how much you present in that context.

David Wilkins

17:21

this question bothers me also. The accepted answer has 3 down and one upvote: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/56008/… Makes me cringe

mxyzplk

Please refer to meta.rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/3318/…

KRyan

@mxyzplk it's a fair criticism (@JoshuaAslanSmith suggest trimming as well), but I'd rather be verbose than fail to back up the claim I'm making

mxyzplk

One can spend from one sentence to ten pages backing up any claim they make. That's not a valid line of reasoning. The question is the order of magnitude appropriate in a given venue.

In a question about "are fumbles bad" - the whole thing is fine.

KRyan

@mxyzplk I'll consider moving the bit about the problems in detail to a separate Q&A and linking to them, then; that might be a better solution

I'll have to check to see if there's an existing question that might be more appropriate, first

but I am not inclined to do so right at this moment; I've already spent longer on this than I should have

David Wilkins

perhaps rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/36084/…

mxyzplk

17:28

I don't see a direct one, but it's easy enough to ask. "The DMG has this optional fumble rule on p.28, how does it affect play?"

Anyway, once that happens I'd be happy to rescind my downvote.

I do wonder why my answer on that Q is being downvoted, it seems like pure revenge downvoting.

David Wilkins

I've only downvoted the question itself, and I may need to re-evaluate that

KRyan

@mxyzplk I downvoted every answer that suggested that using a critical or fumble table as-is was anything but a bad idea; can't speak for anyone else, but I really stand by my statement that they are always bad and thus those answers are all bad suggestions

JohnP

@KRyan I am a 4th degree black belt. Multiple state championships, been ranked top 10 world in our system and fought for a World title. Been in martial arts since 1986. Two weeks ago in our tournament I slipped landing a technique and got a nice whip kick returned off the side of my head. Yes, it will happen.

KRyan

@JohnP 5% of the time?

5% of your punches and kicks result in you hurting yourself or falling over or dropping whatever it is you're holding?

JohnP

@KRyan No. But that's why I think you should roll to confirm the crit, if you roll 1, 1, yeah something should happen. I disagree with the table that yutz has put together though. At most you might be caught flatfooted or provoke an AoO

KRyan

17:38

it does happen, but a d20 just doesn't have the granularity to represent it

JohnP

@KRyan - I also don't land spectacular techniques 5% of the time either. I agree it's a skewed representation, but you can't support the "YAHOO!" 5% of the time as being perfectly acceptable and at the same time decry the "Oh, @#$" 5% of the time either.

Roll to confirm hit, roll to confirm crit, and make the fumble realistic. (Such as the sword twists in your grip, and you lose initiative to the end of the next round while you readjust).

I don't agree with fumbles where the sword goes flying, or you do the Daffy Duck "Ho ha hee dodge thrust parry WHACK!!" thing.

David Wilkins

I say, if you want fumbles, roleplay them. Take real life as an example where professionals make mistakes. "Roll a 1? Ok you are now addicted to shire weed. or: Word gets out that you hit your wife once in the tavern. "

At least then it wouldn't alter game mechanics

JohnP

@DavidWilkins - So...for that parallel, if a professional football player fumbles the ball on a handoff, people should start saying he beats his wife?

wax eagle

@JohnP welcome to twitter

David Wilkins

It was meant to be a jest :P

JohnP

17:51

@waxeagle Now that's funny. :) :)

wax eagle

@DavidWilkins I've been meaning to look up if that item even exists in 5e for 2 days now because if it does, it's upvotable, if it's not then that's NAA

JohnP

@DavidWilkins - I agree, roleplay it. You attack with a sword and roll a 1. Ok, now roll again. Anything but a 1, you just miss. Another 1, and give a consequence, but not one that would result in party wipe or absolute chaos.

wax eagle

(it's still not a good answer, but at least it's valid)

JohnP

Like I said, your sword twists, and you lose initiative this round while you recover, or the shock of a bad hit stings your arm and you are caught flat footed for a moment. Something like that.

wax eagle

the way we play at home (and I confess to hating it, but everyone else seems to enjoy it), is that if you roll a 1, we roll d%, 10% or lower and something bad happens, 90% or higher and you get a reroll

David Wilkins

17:55

So a roll of 2 on a d20 would confirm a fumble

wax eagle

basically

I think the roll of d% is mostly because the d% get lonely in 4e

JohnP

@waxeagle - And are your fumbles realistic? Or chaos producing?

wax eagle

@JohnP mostly it's a "your damage is done to yourself" or "you have a -2 to skill check X til next rest", they vary a bit based on how bad the d% roll comes up

or your ranged attack hits your ally who is standing next to the enemy you were targetting. They aren't particularly game changing

Lord_Gareth

@JohnP I'd agree you can, honestly. Critical hits don't punish the players for existing and don't kick characters already hurt by the math while they're down. The goal isn't simulationism in the first place anyway.

David Wilkins

I have spells that can kill me in one hit if I do damage to myself. I choose never to cast them and instead sit around while you all fight

wax eagle

17:58

@DavidWilkins this is a 4e game, those basically don't exist

JohnP

@waxeagle Exactly. They sting a bit, but they aren't life changing events.

Lord_Gareth

@waxeagle 4e has better math in general. 3.P has a lot of attacks that can natively just finish off yourself or a party member, especially for people who are playing attrition games (somehow) and thus entering fights pre-wounded.

wax eagle

rpg.stackexchange.com/a/56076/1084 really want to comment "Common sense overriding the rulebook is not a concept with which 4e is familiar" but that's probably not appropriate

@Lord_Gareth yeah

JohnP

To see if the scorpion stings itself? Seriously?

Lord_Gareth

@waxeagle You could re-word that more professionally, though. "4e deals in a stricter RAW than many other RPG systems" maybe with some expanding on the idea

Which is similar to what I'd say about Legend, y'know?

Joshua Aslan Smith

18:12

Are we playing next week

@waxeagle NO IT IS, FIRE AWAY!

ENGAGE ENGAGE ENGAGE

wax eagle

@JoshuaAslanSmith yes

JohnP

@DavidWilkins I don't find a "Manual of Golems" for 5e referenced anywhere.

wax eagle

@JoshuaAslanSmith I composed something slightly more professional :)

KRyan

18:29

and back

@JohnP the difference is that critical hits are something that you do, on your turn. Enough bad things will happen to you on enemies' turns, and losing your opportunity to respond (e.g. auto-miss) is already devastating; giving them more "for free" (e.g. not even on their turn, not using any action of theirs) just doesn't work well within the system

Lord_Gareth

@KRyan Or are you?

KRyan

also, I mean – my answer explicitly supports the idea of such failures. It just makes them more narrative and less random

Zachiel

@KRyan I'm readying your extended essay on Team PC critical chances

Fumbling on the vampire, critting on the wolves he summoned. True story.

KRyan

@Zachiel exactly

Lord_Gareth

<-Has killed more than one ally because of three words: "Critical hit, other"

But that was back in the bad old days of the "Good Hits, Bad Misses" chart.

KRyan

18:42

?

Lord_Gareth

@KRyan GH,BM came out as an article in one of the earliest Dragons and was used by my 2e DM (Daaaad) to add flavor to critical hits and fumbles, keeping in mind that a fumble back in 2e already stopped your entire attack routine and ended your turn.

It had stuff like "drop weapon" or "trip", but then it had stuff like "critical hit, self"

KRyan

those things are not flavor

Zachiel

Ah I think I used that in my first 3e campaign

Lord_Gareth

I had one combat where I had to explain how my bard decapitated a drow priestess and then put a three foot longsword through his own lungs.

KRyan

I mean, how do you even explain critical-hitting yourself?

Lord_Gareth

18:45

@KRyan Well in the above case I said he did it on purpose in a brief bout of insanity. Not that I am defending it, this chart is horrible.

Zachiel

I know people who aked themselves on the head while lumbering, but yeah, that's not the point, isn't it?

Lord_Gareth

Indeed. D&D (and PF) are heroic fantasy stories. Fumbles kinda suck the dignity out of that.

David Wilkins

@JohnP what?

Zachiel

Anyway, the horrible, HORRRRRIBLE chart provided one of our most hilarious scenes. Gundam the orc samurai charging zombies to save his master (who just slipped and went unconscious for 4 rounds while trying to shoot a crossbow in melee, with the hope of hitting the party rogue/ranger/barbarian/wizard elf weretiger who just hit him with an arrow because of cover),
and dislocating his arm becoming unable to hold his katana, that he never learned to wield one-handed because the samurai class gave him bonuses when he used it in two hands.

(afk)

KRyan

19:00

@Lord_Gareth anyway, what do you think of the suggestion of moving the The problems in detail section to its own Q&A, and just linking that in this answer?

Lord_Gareth

@KRyan It might be cleaner and give readers of your current answer a greater ability to focus on the phenomenal Fate Points suggestion

KRyan

@Lord_Gareth ok, I'm going to do that then... later, because my boss just came in

>.>

bye all!

David Wilkins

Boss mode!

Zachiel

19:35

That's why I like my PC screen facing the corridor where everybody is. No distractions, no excuses. I'd be too slow otherwise.

JohnP

@DavidWilkins It was a response to a response on the accepted with two downvotes question

@DavidWilkins rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/56008/… That question.

Aaron

I return!

JohnP

For some reason I thought someone had asked if "manual of golems" was even a thing in 5e, I couldn't find it (But I didn't really look all that hard).

@Aaron ::looks for banish scroll::

David Wilkins

Ahh. I downvoted the answer because the user appeared to have misinterpreted 5th edition as 5th level

I still don't understand accepting such an obviously wrong answer. I suppose I could flag the answer, but as what?

Zachiel

@DavidWilkins you should say that in a comment

Aaron

19:45

@JohnP Trying to say I'm an outsider? :P

Zachiel

@DavidWilkins Write a right answer. Hope the querent logs in again

JohnP

@DavidWilkins Mindsuckingly bad?

@Aaron - If the demiplane fits...

David Wilkins

almost @JohnP

JohnP

the 5e tag needs revision though, there is no manual of golems in 5e yet.

wax eagle

yeah, just removed my upvote from the question.

JohnP

19:51

I need to come up with a brilliant question to push me over the 1k mark.

Lord_Gareth

@JohnP Too late, they're all taken aahahahahahahaha

I got quite a bit of rep on the Q&A on utilizing monsters in 3.5

MadMAxJr

Find latest RPG fad > Race to be first to ask questions likely to be googled about it.

JohnP

@MadMAxJr - I'm DM'ing pathfinder for the first time, I'm way behind the fad curve. :p

MadMAxJr

Congratulations, by choosing pathfinder, you have polarized the internet into those who will be positive about it and those who will be negative about it.

JohnP

I suppose I could post the question "What is so bad about pathfinder" and watch the world burn until it gets closed :p

MadMAxJr

19:55

You would get some detailed answers, opinioned answers, some that are both, a flame war, and a closure.

Zachiel

Postulate: "PF isn't really worse than 3.5e". Or should I say "not by that much, in the relative scale of how bad D&D 3.5 is"? (joking, joking...)

JohnP

Hrm. "How do I reimplement THAC0 in Pathfinder?"

wax eagle

@BESW twitter.com/john_harper/status/561243336561131520

MadMAxJr

Gah. That one makes me twitch. Stop that.

Lord_Gareth

@JohnP You want to gain Rep, not be downvoted into the deepest pits of Hell.

5

wax eagle

19:58

@JohnP I didn't look for it yet, but Mearls mentioned a THAC0 sidebar in 5e

MadMAxJr

Yeah, don't test if the vote value has problems when it hits the maxint range.

Lord_Gareth

@waxeagle Sweet Asmodeus why would that maniac do that to innocent freaking people?

MadMAxJr

Children read that book! No child should be exposed to THAC0!

wax eagle

@Lord_Gareth lol it's an optional in the DMG and mostly because this is the D&D to please the unpleasable

MadMAxJr

THAC0 IS WACKO.

JohnP

19:59

Gawd, it's like stepping on an ant and watching the hill boil over.

You wanna disrupt chat? Just drop THAC0 in the conversation.

MadMAxJr

It's like a paper wasp nest, yes.

Lord_Gareth

@waxeagle Just when I thought I could not possibly hate Mearls any more than I already hate him, you bring me fresh reasons. It's like Paizo that way.

MadMAxJr

The average RPG.SE chatter can sting a thousand times without losing strength.

2

Lord_Gareth

"Surely they could not do anything worse than they've already done?" NOPE. HERE COMES THE WORSE.

wax eagle

@Lord_Gareth lol, I haven't checked to see if it made the cut (but I'm like 90% sure it did)

JohnP

20:01

@MadMAxJr Can't be any worse than alt.martial.arts or some of those troll holes.

MadMAxJr

I haven't had an ISP that has offered access to news groups in ages, so I couldn't compare.

wax eagle

google's offered access for years now (not sure if they stopped or not)

JohnP

@waxeagle I think they do, but I haven't been through any groups in a couple years.

I've been on the 'net since the early days of compuserve in the early 80's, I've seen quite a few formats come and go.

I still miss door games.

MadMAxJr

I'll be over here making my group play 1st edition Ninja Burger until the THAC0 goes away.

@JohnP TradeWars 2002.

wax eagle

only reason I used newsgroups was I played Rogue/Nethack/ADOM for a while when I was in HS and read a lot of newsgroups back then (but that was the 00s already so it was via Google)

JohnP

20:05

L.O.R.D. was always my favorite.

MadMAxJr

LORD. Oldschool trolling. Paying the innkeeper to have access to X players room and murdering them in their sleep.

JohnP

Wildcat BBS, I had a list of 8 or 9, and I'd play the same games on several different boards.

MadMAxJr

Yeah. We ran a semi-popular BBS in the midwest using Wildcat software.

JohnP

@MadMAxJr Of course! Not that much different than some campaigns I've been in.

MadMAxJr

It was amusing because in the final years of BBS software, the final iteration was a dial-up HTML page

JohnP

20:07

Most of the ones I frequented were in Colorado. Cost too much to call out of state.

Zachiel

@JohnP Yay anime martial arts (it's the actual name of an alternative martial art in a webcomic, not a mockup name for the site)

David Wilkins

I saw the THAC0 part in 5e. I was seriously never going to bring it up...To anyone.

MadMAxJr

Just need to make a white 'nothing to see here' sticker and place it over the sidebar.

David Wilkins

there's even an entry in the index for THAC0 if I remember correctly

MadMAxJr

Nothing a black sharpie can't fix.

David Wilkins

20:11

hehe

MadMAxJr

The THAC0sition has it's ways. THAC0qusitors will see to the matter.

wax eagle

@DavidWilkins there's a jokey one in the PHB, I know that

Lord_Gareth

Look, I grew up on THAC0. I knew nothing else for the longest time.

And I'm still glad it died a horrible screaming death.

Even an optional variant is entirely too much THAC0 ever

wax eagle

it really makes basically 0 sense whatsoever

Zachiel

I have friends who would like to reintroduce THAC0 in our games. It makes them feel younger.

Those nostalgic waves are not getting THAC0 back in my games

Lord_Gareth

20:17

@waxeagle We had a troll for awhile on Giantitp who made a flurry of highly aggressive threads mocking modern gaming and attempting to prove that THAC0 was easy and intuitive

He did not get a lot of hearing.

The thing that bugs me about grogs - and I am fully prepared to be very ironic here - is that in an age when the RPG community as a whole is moving towards "game your way", they insist on chaining others to gaming their way and denigrating other styles of play.

You can see that in the Pathfinder core rulebook, which is laced with fear of one's own players. You can see that in online discussions and in real life where people snidely mock "player entitlement"

Zachiel

I guess they (we?) need someone to play with

Lord_Gareth

This is why I hate them so much.

Zachiel

we as in me and them

So you hate them for not being able to change what kind of game they want in order to get the fun they want?

Lord_Gareth

@Zachiel I hate them for not being able to accept that everyone is allowed to play their own way, with a secondary in "Sweet freaking hell, people, the hobby has had nearly forty years to grow up. Get over yourselves."

Zachiel

I know I need one or two more people for my D&D 4e group and I also know many games don't need that many players, yet I want to play D&D and possibly 4e. (But that does not mean I want to tell people who don't want to play my way to stop their games to come at mine. Even if I sometimes ask them too, kneeling and crying - figuratively)

JohnP

20:26

@Zachiel - Groups here generally have the opposite problem, and turn away players on a regular basis.

Zachiel

@JohnP I think I turned away at least 2 players who wanted to play 3.5e.

JohnP

Heck, even mine when I advertised it shouting "NEW DM, WILL KLUDGE IT ALL UP" filled up (5 players) in less than 2 days.

@Zachiel Pathfinder, so basically same/same

user61230

THAC0frLyfe

user61230

[Disclaimer: I have never played a THAC0 system.]

JohnP

@Emrakul You should get that tattooed on your left buttock.

THAC0 was fun, until you actually entered combat.

Zachiel

20:27

@JohnP Ah you need to turn them away. No, I turn them away because I don't want to DM that anymore. I like it as a game but I don't feel like I'm good enough to DM it.

@JohnP You did never use it ouside of combat, right?

JohnP

@Zachiel - I figure I gotta start somewhere, and might was well do it in a system that I'm at least familiar with.

@Zachiel Not that I recall, no, but that was many many moons ago.

I had a misguided sojourn into LARPs and missed a lot of the transition from AD&D to 3.5

Lord_Gareth

@JohnP Since you're sojourning into PF, have you investigated any 3pp content?

JohnP

3pp?

Third party?

Lord_Gareth

Third Party Publishing, yes.

Pathfinder's got a rather vigorous support base for it

JohnP

Not as yet. I have a world that I created myself, loosely based around a couple of Michael Stackpole's novels. The first adventure will be a premade, and then I'll branch into mostly my own dungeons/storyline, with a couple other premades thrown in if I get stuck for ideas.

Lord_Gareth

20:35

Well, if you develop and interest, ask me, @Aaron or @IronHeart

JohnP

Hey, I'm interested in anything that makes me a more knowledgable/better DM.

Which at this point is pretty much limited to how drunk I get the players.

Lord_Gareth

Well, I must leave for work here shortly, but I should note for the sake of honesty that I write 3pp content for Pathfinder, for Dreamscarred Press.

They did the psionics system for PF (it's phenomenal)

I'm personally involved primarily in the Path of War line, along with a scattering of everything else ever

Bloodforge, Lords of the Night, boss wants me to do an organizations book...

JohnP

@Lord_Gareth - You have an email? I have some dungeons from 2ed that were pretty damned good (IMHO) that I wouldn't mind converting to PF system, and I'd be interested in feedback. I'd have to dig them out, but...

Lord_Gareth

@JohnP Dungeons, you say...I may have something on the burner that could use maps and input, actually. Don't really want to share my email over something permanently searchable, though. Ah...hellfire.

JohnP

tkd dot teacher at gmail.

Lord_Gareth

20:44

Bam

JohnP

@Lord_Gareth - There's also a local player/gm that was one of the group that wrote the core books for the Rolemaster system, I could always see if he would be interested as well.

@Lord_Gareth - Only a couple hits on google and 2 pages only. I'm impressed. About the most private email I've come across that actually gets used.

BESW

21:13

@waxeagle Urrgh why does my bank hate online crowdfunding? I want this.

MadMAxJr

@BESW Sir a customer has indicated they would like 'nice things'. SHUT. DOWN. EVERYTHING.

JohnP

@BESW is why we can't have nice things.

BESW

Kickstarter and Patreon are literally on their "black list" of automatic-denial sites. I have to call up and beg for them to whitelist individual transactions.

I've got a couple players who think Lady Blackbird is the coolest thing since polyhedrons with numbered sides.

wax eagle

@BESW :(

@BESW can you get hands on generic visa/mc gift cards over there?

BESW

Not readily, especially on a weekend.

JohnP

21:21

@BESW - What about funding a paypal account and using that?

dang. 5 hours still until game time :(

BESW

You don't want to know my PayPal woes. However, that might be a temporary option.

JohnP

I have my paypal tied to a little used, lightly funded account. That way if it gets hacked, I'm not out much, and if I don't keep lots of $$ in it, I avoid large impulse purchases.

(Such as unneeded $1200 race wheels for my bike, which prompted that setup in the first place. Wife was distinctly not happy :p)

BESW

I didn't use my PayPal account for about five years. When I went to use it again, it turned out to be tied to a credit card that I'd since cancelled and destroyed the card.

Because of their security policies, this means I can no longer add money to the account, as without that card I can't add a new card.

wax eagle

paypal can be annoying. We literally have to purchase a telephone to get my wife' account working again :(

David Wilkins

21:57

As a web admin, I can say Paypal sucks on the business side as well

BESW

Unfortunately it's often the only option available to me: many businesses refuse to accept my credit card because it has a Guam PO Box address.

And as more businesses become accepting of that, my bank becomes more block-happy about online transactions.

JohnP

22:09

w0W tH4t suXX0rZ!

Anaphory

Hi

BESW

Hey.

Anaphory

How's life?

BESW

Where can I submit my petition for an extra hour in the day and an extra day in the week?

Anaphory

I don't know, but when you find it, please tell me, I would like that as well.

In particular when getting surprise visitors.

(Less a surprise that he would turn up at some point, more a surprise that he did turn up today, and not early Februrary.)

JohnP

22:22

3

Ah, almost time to head home to my lovely wife and fat little tax brea....er, child. :)

BESW

...I wish I knew more people with experience playing Cthulhu Dark.

Anaphory

I'm not a horror player, but I would appreciate that, as well.

Zachiel

I played it!

BESW

@Zachiel I'm still trying to wrap my head around the Dark Depths pamphlet and its scenario structure.

I've run a half-dozen sessions and the scenario structure seems absolutely key to success--but I can't figure out what is different between the ones that work and the ones that don't.

afk a bit

Anaphory

Hmm, interesting, given that CD is on my to-try list

(but I still need to find someone who can GM it for me, because I don't feel up to presenting horror)

Zachiel

22:41

@BESW I wouldn't know. I just happened to do a one shot where we didn't get t the horror part. But the setting was awesomely researched (the city where I studied, 1926) and I absolutely loved the session anyway.

JohnP

I wouldn't mind giving CD a try, but not many around me are into the horror RPG genre.

SolidusVerum

Hey all, does anyone know of an efficient way to feed a large magical creature (Griffon) effectively?

Instead of just having it just hunt for all of it's own food, being able to provide food without spending enormous amounts of gold per month. I am a cleric by the way.

Anaphory

Buy lots of sheep?

JohnP

Sheep, horses, deer, pigs, carrion (At DM discretion).

SolidusVerum

Is there a mechanic in D&D for farming sheep? Like I buy a few sheep and then just have them reproduce and feed my Griffon?

JohnP

22:51

Meat is meat, just don't let PETA know.

Anaphory

Cleric: “I need to tend my flock.” Commoner: “Your congregation?” Cleric: “No, the food for my griffin!”

JohnP

You're a cleric, right? Have some of the lesser church acolytes tend the massive sheep flock you just bought the church.

SolidusVerum

@Anaphory that's clever

@JohnP that could work.

We're just starting this campaign, and it's my first so I'm trying to make sure I don't starve my first mount ever.

JohnP

Plus, that gives the GM a good plot hook, what else has been stealing the sheep?

SolidusVerum

Oh good point.

JohnP

22:53

I wouldn't worry about it too much. After all, if your griffon decides your not feeding it enough, then you'll know it. Probably about the time it dives into a herd of deer wtih you clinging on for dear life.

SolidusVerum

@JohnP I'll keep that in mind.

JohnP

Of course, that particular herd of deer was claimed by the hill giant in the next valley over.

I need to give one of my players a griffon.

BESW

@Zachiel I am moderately baffled how a CD game can avoid horror.

Zachiel

@BESW We didn't get to the part where we got in touch with the evil things because we ran out of time

BESW

Huh.

Which layer did you hit?

Zachiel

23:03

We were investigating on a ritual assassin and we found the next probable victim, so we traveled to where he was and found some weird rituals about opening gates

BESW

Ah. Were you using the Dark Depths scenario structure pamphlet, or just the primary Cthulhu Dark mechanic pamphlet?

Zachiel

I have no idea, is there a difference a player could tell?

No, wait, we were using the cthulhu grey hack (three more sentences than the usual rules)

BESW

I have not heard of this. [googles]

SolidusVerum

Hey can someone explain this line from the SRD "Price +X Bonus."

I haven't found anything that clearly explains the bonus to price increase ratio.

Zachiel

@SolidusVerum I suoppose you're playing D&D 3.5

Am I right?

SolidusVerum

23:12

Yup, sorry I should have mentioned that.

Zachiel

A magic weapon or armor has a price proportional to the square of its magic bonus, plus some fixed extra (usually the cost of the weapon or armor itself)

So, suppose you have a +3 keen (Price +1 Bonus) longsword

that costs as a +4 longsword

SolidusVerum

Okay, if the item doesn't cost anything to begin with, then do I just go off of the bonus.

BESW

Table: Armor and Shields; Table: Weapons. These tables give the prices for each enhancement bonus value.

SolidusVerum

I'm using a quarterstaff.

@Zachiel & @BESW Thank you!

BESW

@SolidusVerum "All magic weapons are also masterwork weapons." This means your quarterstaff costs 300g.

SolidusVerum

23:15

Good to know.

Zachiel

Also, some enhancements have a fixed cost instead of a +X Bonus equivalent

SolidusVerum

Okay.

BESW

Okay, Cthulhu Grey is cute, but doesn't fix anything I ever had a problem with--in fact, it breaks a lot of Cthulhu Dark's pacing and tension mechanics in the name of "realism."

Someday I may write a monograph about the fallacy of realism.

Also, this question reminds me of Once Upon A Table's commentary on critical hit tables:

(source)

..."Cthulhu Grey" would be a much better name for a Lovecraftian take on Area 51 and ufology.

@Zachiel In theory, Cthulhu Grey is compatible with the Dark Depths scenario-building guidelines. In practice, I doubt that anyone who valued the changes in CG would value the structure of Dark Depths.

@Anaphory I should probably write up my Doctor Who-inspired CD scenarios. They're fun and have been successful in practice, and might make it easier for GMs like you to feel comfortable with running such things.

Anaphory

23:46

Tell me more?

BESW

I'm not really immersed in horror culture, but I like some elements of it. I love the Cthulhu Dark system and I have players who love horror. So I wanted to run a CD game, but I didn't have any adventure and didn't feel comfortable making one up.

I took the Second Doctor story The Abominable Snowmen and the Fourth Doctor story The Horror of Fang Rock and wrote them up as Cthulhu Dark scenarios using the Dark Depths structure guidelines.

Anaphory

While I live in Britain, my Doctor fu is weak.

BESW

What's important is this:

Anaphory

Are those themselves kinda horror stories?

(I mean, they have stuff in the title, but…)

BESW

The Doctor is an extremely knowledgeable expert in the alien and the inexplicable, able to bring understanding and science to bear on things which ordinary humans can't figure out on our own. He inspires others to courage and provides the tools for success.

If you remove the Doctor and his companions from a scenario and put the Investigators in their place, you get fundamental Lovecraftian horror: something with malign intent, superhuman capacity, and alien motives, is opposed by people just barely competent to survive it.

Those particular stories are especially well suited to the concept, but Doctor Who usually treads the edge of horror. Removing the competent hero who understands what's going on pushes things firmly over the edge.

Anaphory

23:53

Ah, okay. Cool.

BESW

For example: The Horror of Fang Rock is about an alien shapeshifter soldier who crashes near a British lighthouse and wants to signal his mothership to rescue him.

He needs to gain access to the lighthouse generators to power his distress beacon, but he looks like a glowing green Jello jellyfish the size of a person. So he kills someone in the lighthouse and dissects him to understand human anatomy, then takes on that person's shape to blend in.

When the Doctor can say, "Ahah, this is the wreckage of a Rutan scout ship, and Rutans are vulnerable to [technobabble]," it's scary but not horrifying.

Without him, the Investigators find multicoloured shooting stars, carefully dissected corpses, strangely-behaving people, bizarre alien machinery and mutated fish, with no way to make sense of it. When they finally confront the Rutan and it reveals its true form, no one is there to reassure them that it's a known thing.

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