> In this game, the object is to __. You might not be able to do it, though, because __.

Interesting not only for a cool way to look at game design/implementation (ping @Lord_Gareth, @Magician) but also because the responses include a ton of games I've never heard of.

and then what do you do when someone comes up with a way of doing X that you have never seen before that completely circumvents the obstacles you have placed?

They win, obviously. And if you win too easily, then the game stops being fun.

@Shalvenay This is about game design; the system is created to create and enforce the obstacles which are inherent to its play. Your experience is with a system that was not deliberately created, but exists simply as a set of unstated and amorphous social contracts.

This entry on how mechanics define both what you can and cannot do touches on the insularity freeform communities, lacking strict iterations of such restrictions, can develop.

You'll see that a lot of the bullet points about the function of mechanics --defining good and bad inputs, forcing interesting choices-- are the sorts of things you struggle with in your freeform play.

The bits about conflicting input and neutralised input are central to your struggles, I think.

@IgneusJotunn I'd say, rather, that they're playing a different game. The object/obstacle exercise is a tool for thinking about the nature of a game: it defines a goal and an obstacle. If you change either the goal or the obstacle, it's likely that you're now playing a different game.

When an entire group does it, that's cool. When one player does it without asking the rest of the group if it's okay that he plays a different game than they're playing, that's less cool.

@BESW: good point -- a lot of the reason freeform developed was because the rules were considered unsuitable

well, I mean, in the community I'm dealing with

Yeah, I'm reasonably sure freeform RPGs --even the narrow subset of online text-based ones-- predate the System Doesn't Matter movement.

@AgentPaper I keep thinking "Agent Pepper," who is probably Sergeant Pepper's more successful older brother.

heh

Hmm. Ponderable concept: "Fate Normals."

Skill spread doesn't rise above 2. Stunts are limited in number and power (+1 instead of +2). Fate points and free invokes become the only way to get high numbers. Drop the pulp elements, focus on the drama of the everyday.

Could also work for a gritty zombie build.

Aspect prompt, for half-pre-made PCs and helping players figure out aspects for their own characters: I would do anything for/to ______

I wonder what SE has in the way of tech sites...

Friend's having microphone troubles.

Greetings everyone.

Yo.

[wave]

@BESW The artist behind GenCrawl Gaiden just did character portraits for the text-only companion story

wildwestscifi.net/filler/12417

@BESW Well, I think "This is the way to play OUR game" is fine, it's not the same thing as "This is the ONLY way to play all roleplaying games, and everyone else who tries to play any other way is a bad gamer". The former is fine because it sets a clear same page for everyone to get onto when playing this particular game, the latter is a thing where you have to convince/attack anyone else because you have The One True Way.

Aye. Unfortunately, it's a line that seems very easy to cross.

Perhaps because the attitude is sadly endemic, so the language of play guidance is rife with pitfalls.

I think the first time I read really good, clear, "this is our game" text with in Call of Cthulhu.

And that's because it recognised the need to guide players in shedding other playstyles if the game was going to work, so it had to talk about it more openly.

Whereas some games seem to feel that even acknowledging other playstyles or systems is endorsing the competition.

@BESW The Pathfinder core rulebook has the opposite of this. Their GMing advice section reads like a Cold War conspiracy manual in which your players are the Soviets

@Lord_Gareth You may be missing the original context of the topic.

Not "our game" in terms of "GM and players are all participants," but "our game" as in "we developed this system to do a thing, but not every other system will be similar and that's okay."

@BESW Even with that context, my statement remains relevant. PF's CRB makes statements about how group dynamics work in RPGs as though all are similar.

...Commission for Relief in Belgium?

(Pathfinder CRB means...?)

C(ore) R(ule)b(ook)

Ahah.

It's the usual acronym found on the Paizo forums for it

Everything I know about Pathfinder I know from Stack.

@BESW -- I'd probably wind up approaching CoC with a "what's sanity?" playstyle...

@Shalvenay Yeah, and that'd probably wind up being an attempt to redefine the game to bypass one of the core obstacles it's about overcoming.

I've seen it in Cthulhu Dark, even, though not intentionally: the urge to create a character whose fictional positioning lets him mitigate a crucial mechanic for pacing and tension.

@BESW Well, the key point of One True Way-ism is making it an identity to defend instead of one choice amongst many. It also means by making it something to defend, the issues with how it works (or doesn't work)becomes something you can't talk about.

@Lord_Gareth What's that legendarily insane Call of Cthulhu PC?

@BESW Old Man Henderson, and there's lots and lots of context about that, starting with his origin as the final weapon in an escalating adverserial GM conflict.

@Bankuei Gotcha. So the key is to avoid conflating oneself with the products one consumes (or, I suppose, the way in which one consumes them).

In a lot of ways, Henderson should not have happened, because the player should not have been provoked to that point.

@Lord_Gareth Yeah, and that's part of what makes him a good example of how and why it shouldn't happen.

...Wait, did you just randomly summon me to provide the answer to a question with almost no relevant details on the assumption that I would instantly know what you were talking about?

@Lord_Gareth It worked, didn't it?

@BESW Yes this is the part that disturbs me.

[purses lips enigmatically]

How did I become known as the provider of RPG-related information in a general rather than specific sense?

How did this happen, @BESW?

Actually, I knew you would know that specific thing and I provided you very specific cues to jog your memory.

You're the one who first linked Old Man Henderson to the chat, after all.

This is true.

So don't worry! Instead of being considered a general expert, this just means I can play you like an out-of-tune harpsichord.

...or maybe a keytar.

[rolls -2 on Reassurance]

Morning!

Somewhere, somehow, shush!

And a [adjective] [time of day] to [pronoun], too.

Hail unto thee @Magician. You may see a link from me, above, of interest to you. The characters of Tourney got portraits from the Gaiden artist

Hello all

can anyone please tell me what this room is for?

so that I can ask my question accordingly

Deviance & Debauchery.

Ahem. Roleplaying games, I mean.

The tabletop kind, not the computer kind. Although many play those too, naturally.

@Magician Specifically, roleplaying games played without an electronically-driven engine; that is, non-videogame roleplaying games

@Lord_Gareth Shiny!

I need to catch up on Tourney, I've only read the first few.

@Magician It's been on hold because of the author's vacation, but that should in theory be over soon.

Speaking of webcomics to catch up on, Atomic Robo's uploaded the first volume already. Their server is handling the stress surprisingly well.

@Magician Also I cannot stop looking at Merhousemaid's portrait. She's so cute.

[Watches the Life of a Bullet scene from Lord of War]

I keep misreading that parry question as "When do I announce my party?"

"The Weird Science of Naming New Products" may be a useful read to people looking to come up with names for their settings. It may also give me some ideas for Weird plots for my own game.

Though I don't want to get too close to G.O.D.OT.

good morning

Gah, I need webcomic suggestions. In the mood for tropey parody fantasy a la 8-Bit Theater or Order of the Stick. I know there are more out there but I can't think of any!

@JoshuaAslanSmith o/

lol

why not indulge in the genius of darthsanddroids

of DM of the rings

if you havent read that yet

@Dorian Skin Horse is "X-Files social workers."

As I said, going towards themes like those present in 8-Bit Theater and OOTS.. In fact, just read 8-Bit Theater from start to finish in the last week or so.

I want more :( But I know it won't happen sadly.

8-Bit and OOTS are parodies of specific franchise tropes, rather than genre tropes or or the like. Is that what you want?

The 8-Bit guy just today put the first volume of his current comic, Atomic Robo, online for free and he'll keep putting up then up at about one volume a week, which'll keep them coming until at least May.

Atomic Robo is sort of like Hellboy in structure, but its themes are Action Science (like, Indiana Jones is an Action Archaeologist; Atomic Robo has Action Geologists and so forth). Carl Sagan helps trap a Lovecraftian horror, and Tesla has a lightning fight with Edison.

Yeah, I'm shooting for franchise tropes. That's why I cited those two specifically, and came here, because I figured there's probably more out there with similar elements to them.

Even if it's not specifically Final Fantasy/D&D geared, I'm sure there are others with similar topics in mind (fantasy games, fantasy tabletop, etc)

Mmm. I generally prefer comics that play with tropes, but don't rely so heavily on "wink wink nudge nudge I'm referring to a common popular culture element we both know" to drive their interest.

@Dorian IT IS STILL GOING

@Dorian highly recommend The GM of the Rings, its pretty heavy on both tropes and RPG gamisms

Oh, @JoshuaAslanSmith you were referring to DarthsandDroids still going? Yeah, not unexpected.

The fanbase is massive, as is the source material.

@Dorian when abouts did you stop reading it (in terms of prequels?) Its up to luke and darth fight in ESB

I cant decide whether DarthsandDroids or the auralnauts version of the prequels is the better version youtube.com/playlist?list=PLINl9l0igYjzIipxsD4Y59_Jjxe4N3pZo

Morning

I personally found GM of the Rings painful to read; it's an iteration of all the intraparty power struggles and using game solutions for table problems that I try to get away from.

@besw I read it right before I became a tabletop player but it was a good primer on what to avoid

a cautionary tale/allegory if you would

(Contrast Darths & Droids, which is the exact same setup but with players and GM who roll with the punches and incorporate the contributions of everyone at the table.)

@JoshuaAslanSmith No idea lolz. It was a long time ago.

@besw very true

also

EXPLODING DICE

kra-koom

Guess I'll read LFG and the other webcomics on there too. Maybe I should dig up that old website that had ALL THE WEBCOMICS again... Though iirc most of the links on there are long dead.

You know what... someone needs to make a Breath of Fire webcomic :3

I could trawl through my feeds and see what looks likely.

Let me know ^.^

...There's Snowflame, a fan comic about the DC character of the same name.

If I ever gitgud I might look into doing a sort of metagame webcomic, merging random crap from a few games to create an original parody fanworld kinda thing.

@BESW never heard of the character

I assume you know about the GenCrawl series of comics, as they've been linked semi-regularly in chat by @Lord_Gareth.

I'm gonna be going afk in a minute though to do snow so that'll give you time.

@Dorian He only lasted about two issues: he was a villain who got superpowers from doing cocaine. Totally loony, worshipped cocaine as a god and considered himself its high priest.

Possibly one of the most bizarre DC characters ever, which is saying something.

@BESW Know about them vaguely, haven't looked into them much. Most of the time I saw them I didn't have the time for webcomics. Also I think the images were posted without sourcing but memory is fuzzy.

@BESW That is... Well then.

anyways, afk. gettin shoes on and goin out for snowshoveling

Both the Snowflame comic and LARP Trek seem to be dead now, but they were fun while they lasted.

LARP Trek is about Geordi trying to get members of the Next Generation Enterprise to play RPGs.

...their game is the DS9 show.

That's about all I've got that are directly parodying known works, though The Thrilling Adventures of Lovelace and Babbage are basically the same thing except for real-life historical figures.

Most of the comics I like draw on a wide variety of works; Skin Horse is mad science, government drama, and the more traditionally brutal childrens' stories, with a smattering of blacksploitation and other things; Atomic Robo draws on sentai and spy films and Quatermain and others.

@besw lol that soudns like an interesting star trek webcomic

@JoshuaAslanSmith It's very close to a horror game conceit I'd like to explore some day, but without any of the horror at all.

@besw dem fire caves though

Well, you know, except for the horror innate in Wesley playing Odo.

@Dorian the only 2 I read with regularity are xkcd.com and d20monkey.com, neither is really what you're after though

that frames the odo love story in an interesting light

wait, whos playing kira

Irregularwebcomic? Restricting it to the fantasy arc, if you don't want to read all of it?

@JoshuaAslanSmith Data. Of course.

lol

'I sorta cant get over that why doesnt the wizard have enhance ability 5e question

@JoshuaAslanSmith "because she doesn't" isn't a very good answer :(

@waxeagle I do like that top answer though.

It doesn't have anything backing it up but it makes sense Thematically.

well, there's really nothing that can be backed up wrt the question, since basically the question asks "tell me what Jeremy/Mike were thinking"

I was suprised there was no mention of the fact that Sorcerers DO have access to that spell. I know I was a little baffled when I asked our wizard if he had it on his list and he said "No"

@waxeagle I almost VTCd as opinion bassed

it seems a really petty question to ask them on twitter

quick question - Did pathfinder do away with magical weapons necessary for skeletons and minor undead?

@JohnP they have damage resistance if that is what you are referring to

Flagged as "too broad" rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/55743/…

to me, the best reading of that, the answer is simply "make something up"

heh

@JohnP They have damage reduction that's bypassed by damage type (slashing, piercing, bludgeoning). Magical weapons aren't necessary to defeat them.

@IronHeart So... you can just bash away at them. No worries about needing blunt or magical weapons. Thanks.

Oh, you will probably want blunt weapons.

But if you have the damage capability, you don't, strictly speaking, need them.

So all that time I spent whaling away with the flat of the sword was unnecessary. whoopee.

@waxeagle Ive been pretty happy with our performance in your campaign sans magic items

@JoshuaAslanSmith yeah, I haven't seen the need for them (and, frankly, there aren't many in the module).

which I find very interesting because starter kit was tossing them out like candy

yes

The only exception to the you dont really need em feeling i have is Id be inclined to give a magic weapon to a lot of melee spellcaster classes

very different vibe

z0r.de/6466

is that Hulkachu?

@JohnP Oh, damage reduction is still usually sizeable.

Ignoring 5 points of damage is ignoring a lot of damage, at the low levels.

@IronHeart - Damage reduction? Hrm. ::Read read read::

Ah. Got it.

@JohnP Did I type "resistance" earlier? Bah! I need to organize my mental files, somone put a 5e rule in the pathfinder box

lol

Hello @Lord_Gareth

YOU DARE TO GREET THE DARK LORD?

(Hi)

I dare to greet any lord who graces me with their presence :)

rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/55748/… begs the question of whether or not that area of Darkness can be seen from without. If it casts no shadows, could I stare at a sphere of Darkness between me and the sun without going blind, or would I just not know why I am going blind?

haha

@DavidWilkins Back away slowly, bro. There are some questions the rules of D&D do not handle.

heh

For instance, did you know fire elementals don't shed light? Like, at all?

They're towering infernos of primal flame, shed no light

That I did know :P

And they don't catch things on fire just from being near. I actually asked that question a few months ago

Yep

What did someone want to prevent players doing by declaring that would be the case, and why did they decide to break anything resembling physics instead???

simple: D&D is an RPG rules engine, not a video game physics engine :)

correct

But still: saying “Fire elementals are actually utterly unlike fire” sounds to me like “No, players, you cannot use fire elementals to …”, when stated explicitly.

pretty much

If it was just that there's no rules about fire elementals setting anything on fire, that would be one thing, but explicitly stating that they don't…

dat enworld link, makin me laugh

@Anaphory the fence is there to protect you as much as it is to keep you in

we have a saying here

"Anything you can do, the GM can do better"

@Anaphory This is actually relevant to my life because of a horrible, soul-shriveling thread I had the misfortune of participating in

It hurt my faith in humanity. it damaged my ability to taste ice cream

And for thirteen pages it involved sniveling, simpering apes trying to argue that you needed highly complex rules modeling the interactions of fire-for-hair and the game world.

To which we replied, "Do you have any idea how little D&D models this crap when it already exists? Fire elementals don't shed light. Nightmares, who are HIGHLY ON FIRE, don't deal fire damage to things near them, and neither do efreet."

This should not have been thirteen pages of argument.

But it was

@Anaphory here's my question with the reason I had to ask it

Essentially, my party was afraid I was going to burn down the inn, which was wooden, by summoning a fire elemental

@Lord_Gareth - YO! 'sup, lord dude?

@Lord_Gareth the bitter taste of your remorse is always refreshing, continue to share.

Also dont forget

D&D is Magic

Well, I doubt that D&D is magic, but I don't have any alternative hypotheses. If I wants magic, I'll look somewhere else… (Just like for nearly every other use case. Can someone tell me a good reason why I might want to play D&D5, and not something else instead, like Torchbearer or Dungeon World or …? Because I might actually be willing to try it out, if there is something about it I should see in play.)

Production artwork from old adventure games is nice.

For instance.

@Anaphory There's lots of good reasons to not play 5e, really. WotC attempted to re-brand D&D to draw grognards back in and half-assed a bunch of things to appeal to new audiences.

So I would suggest Dungeon World

@JoshuaAslanSmith I will share more later, though frankly I'm inclined to just kick you the link to the thread and let you read my suffering yourself.

@Anaphory In truth I cant recommend 5e over something like dungeon world except to say that it has tactical combat

In fact

giantitp.com/forums/…

thats the only thing keeping me interested as a 4e player who also loves dungeon world

also

There. Read it. KNOW MY PAIN.

published adventures

I WILL

You will also find therein an example of using a straight-classed rogue to play a wizard

WITHOUT casting spells

hahaha

so what youre saying is that this is like reading the D&D 5e reddit

But the TL;DR goes like this

lots of half baked charop

"Refluffing is an awesome and interesting addition to the game that lets players bring cool concepts to life" vs. "SCREW YOU FOR HAVING BADWRONGFUN YOU FILTHY APES I HATE REFLUFFING AND I HATE YOU"

Except instead of shouting the latter side is run by Dolores Umbridge

So lots of patronizing and rhetorical questions

@Lord_Gareth that first post, that first headline "the immutability of class fluff"

Im already lost

before it even begun

Okay. Good. That means I still won't waste any time on D&D or any places where it's discussed or stuff.

Wish me luck guys.

Good luck, then?

It's my wife's B-day and I am going to be cooking her a feast and I haven't really cooked in about a year.

Oh. Very best of luck, then.

Lasagna, garlic bread, shrimp, and ravioli.

Small portions but a nice variety.

Make sure you put the garlic bread in the oven before the lasagna.

:p

make sure to put a timer on

TIMER

@JoshuaAslanSmith - How does one actually wear a timer? Like a hat? or is it an apron accessory?

lasagna takes like an hour to bake, make sure you give yourself a hell of a lot of time

@JohnP see above

I have plenty of time. I am sending her to see a 2 hour movie while I cook.

@JohnP Why garlic bread before lasagna?

@Aaron he's joking, if you do that you will have either incinerated bread or very hard bread (depending on oven temp and bread)

I assume it was a joke but I have heard of weirder things that turned out to taste good.

Ok. I am off to shop. See you all later

@Aaron - Yes, definitely a joke. Lasagna = 1hr +, garlic bread at lasagna temps for 1 hour = clouds of smelly smoke.

collective thoughts re: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/55746/… I'm thinking asking for us to write a whole class is way to broad.

@waxeagle I made a meta about that. Posting from my phone atm so I'm not going to try to link it, but it's the most recent meta question.

VTCd to close

Does 5e's Enhance Ability spell mean people are aware of the six abilities?

@doppelgreener what do you mean?

Like in character knowledge of the 6 stat system?

or do you mean can other characters tell that somone is juicing with the magic?

or something else entirely?

+1 for juicing.

lol

o/ @JoshuaAslanSmith and @waxeagle

Haha ... juicing