TRPG General Chat

Miniman

07:00

(Assuming that's your goal here, obviously.)

Zach

Added to or modified to accomidate

I was honestly just hoping that there was a very simple answer to this question that I just couldn't see.

user61230

Hmm... I'm not sure you'll find a simple answer. (In which case "too broad" might be your answer, after all.)

BESW

That'd be lovely, and there might be--but it'd be an answer drawn out in conversation, because the mainsite Stack can't accommodate a question with completely unknown qualifiers.

There's nothing about the kind of non-combat interactions you're having, why you find the Pathfinder mechanics inadequate for those interactions, or anything else which would give us any clue what sort of answer might be useful to your situation.

Personally, I'd be inclined to suggest a pared-down form of Fate Core's skills and actions in tandem with a handful of aspects.

Zach

Something like: 'Use skills and mental stats as combat stats,' or 'make people roleplay out the results of the skill check,' etc. was what I was hoping for. Some very basic answer that is generally employed in social games

doppelgreener

@BESW IIRC someone else from this chat room was doing exactly that in one of their own games.

user61230

07:07

You may want to rephrase your question to be looking for a rules-set that can be tacked on to Pathfinder that allows for battles of wits, then?

user61230

That could definitely produce succinct, on-point Pathfinder-relevant answers. Though be sure to specify to the best of your ability what you want the additional rules to do.

Zach

@Emrakul I'd considered that, but rejected the idea because I couldn't think of any criteria that would make one game an inherently better answer than any other, especially since ease of adaption isn't my main concern.

doppelgreener

@Zach Also, bear in mind there's an awful lot of games that don't feature combat. In Cthulhu Dark, you investigate and struggle against an unknown threat, trying your best to stop it, succeeding at everything you try but having little impact (but there's no fighting). In Gumshoe, you do detective stuff. In Microscope, you detail a world. In Fate, you do dramatic stuff, and I've played amazing sessions where most things that happened weren't even a fight.

Zach

That's basically what I'm looking for

doppelgreener

In Roll for Shoes, you just do whatever. BESW, myself, and a friend recently played a session in which they were salespeople in a hardware & home improvement warehouse store, competing for Employee of the Month.

Zach

07:10

Mechanics common to games that allow for play that's not combat focused

doppelgreener

Yes. So. There aren't any.

BESW

@Zach Many games which highlight social conflict use the exact same mechanics for both physical and social interactions.

doppelgreener

Except "roll dice" (maybe) and "have a character with descriptive qualities and/or stats"

user61230

@BESW As a side note, are you interested in playing again at some point? I liked our games before.

BESW

@Emrakul Sure!

Zach

07:12

Well, that's my problem, then. It's not that my question is too broad to be answered, once I boil it down to the actual question I want answered, so much as the answer ultimately doesn't exist

doppelgreener

@Zach Yep

BESW

@Zach Well, kinda. Your question assumes a truth which isn't, and asks a question based on that error.

That's why I linked to the meta about scope.

doppelgreener

Well, it assumes there's any useful conclusion to be made about what noncombat stuff has in common in games.

Zach

Well, I couldn't know unless I asked. As I have no idea how many RPGs there are, and how broadly their mechanics function, I had no way of knowing that there are too many different games to give an over-arching answer that encompasses many of them

BESW

Often scope issues are less about how many systems exist, and more about how diverse they are. Games like A Penny For My Thoughts and Microscope have been bending my own perceptions of the breadth of the medium.

user61230

07:14

@BESW Sweet :D I'm looking forward to [undetermined time] [undetermined medium] [undetermined genre] [undetermined characters]! (Actually, though.)

BESW

@Zach As I've said, the chat can probably suggest some starting places for research in this more informal setting.

Zach

I understand how broad roleplaying can be. I take part in forum-based RPGs, which basically Don't have mechanics, and they still manage to function. However, I don't actually think of those as games, so much as collaborative writing efforts.

user61230

@Zach Well, many games are built around the idea that we're playing to collaboratively write a story.

Miniman

@Zach Incidentally, however this pans out, thanks for handling it pretty well! (E.g. not like this!)

Zach

Agreed, but I wouldn't actually think of those as 'games' in a classic sense. Microscope, for example, seems to me as more of a tool for writing stories, that just happens to be fun to do in groups... if it is. I could see it getting frustrating

user61230

07:18

Well, what defines the RPG experience for you? (Because writing stories together is critical for me.)

BESW

I've seen games where you have no stats except how badly the gods hate you, which determines your success or failure at the task over which a god presides; games where the only resolution mechanic is that you ask two other players what happens and pick one of their answers; games where physical combat kills you instantly and games where initiative is determined by whether you want to talk, run, [other], or fight....

Zach

As bad an answer as it probably is, I'd define an RPG as any system that incorporates both mechanical (ex. World of Warcraft) and Role Play (ex. playing 'pretend' as a child) elements

BESW

My idea of "RPG" gets challenged at least twice a year. These days it's something like "improvising stories together, I'll know it when I see it."

Zach

For me, it has to have predetermined rules, and incorporate roleplaying into those rules

BESW

Alternately, "An RPG is whatever my group wants to play on Saturday nights."

Zach

07:23

Poker: RPG edition!

BESW

Nah, cribbage. Better for talking.

Zach

If simple communication is your goal, atleast in my circles, Poker is the best... so long as you count exasperated dramatics as 'talking'

doppelgreener

@BESW in order, to faciliate research: Great Ork Gods; Penny for my thoughts; Cthulhu Dark, and the initiative system is one we've tried but I don't know where it comes from originally

BESW

@Zach I've had that sort of notion in my definition sometimes, but it runs into syllogism issues: free-form RPGs have social rules, stated or unstated; do they count? And is roleplaying limited to controlling a single character or can I RP a nation, or take up and slough off characters like hats? These are neither trivial nor objective for me.

@doppelgreener And the last one is Doctor Who: Adventures In Time And Space.

doppelgreener

@BESW there we go

user61230

07:26

What if the definition is so simple and stupid and obvious, it's been evading us this entire time...

user61230

A role-playing game is a game in which you play a role.

Zach

Agreed

That's the answer... but it's just vague to the point of being unhelpful

user61230

er, well, besides the fact that it includes mumblety-peg as a roleplaying game...

doppelgreener

@Emrakul monopoly is a popular rebuttal to that. is monopoly a roleplaying game? is Small World or Risk?

user61230

@doppelgreener Actually, I'd argue that those are a different definition of role

Zach

07:27

Thus, people try, and fail, to define 'game' and 'role', in order to make a better answer

I think it would work better as a sliding scale

user61230

Though I have absolutely nothing to support that claim.

Zach

1-10, 1 being toddlers playing in the back yard, 10 being chess

user61230

> Role: A character assigned or assumed.

Zach

Hmm... though, acting may be a better definition for 1

user61230

@doppelgreener No, monopoly is not typically a role-playing game because you aren't assigned a character.

Zach

07:29

Sure you are

The person buying and selling all that land

You just never act out anything other than their financial choices

user61230

You can play it that way, but I haven't.

user61230

That's why I say typically - people aren't usually playing monopoly as if they're a banker with a tendency toward desire for money.

user61230

They're usually just themselves playing Monopoly.

BESW

See also: Munchkin, Magic: the Gathering, Grave Robbers From Outer Space...

doppelgreener

true enuff

Zach

07:31

It'd be a 9 or a 10 on the scale

user61230

Definition of character:

user61230

> the aggregate of features and traits that form the individual nature of some person ~~or thing~~.

Zach

Hmm... I'm actually really starting to like this scale idea. Role Vs. Game, 1-10

user61230

In Munchkin, you're not assuming the role of a character. The card has no features and traits that would define it as a person.

BESW

@Emrakul Ah, but remember that we're in a specialised context where general definitions may be trumped by definitions specific to the medium. Rather like "mode" means something quite different whether you're a statistician, a musician, or a cook.

doppelgreener

07:33

@BESW or playing atomic robo RPG

AgentPaper

@Emrakul You seem to be going for a literal definition of "roleplaying game", which means any game in which you play a role. However, since that encompasses almost every game that exists (short of the extremely abstract, such as Tic Tac Toe), that's not really a useful definition.

user61230

@BESW Does the RPG world have a definition of "character"?

Zach

An extremely vague one

user61230

@AgentPaper 'role' includes the word 'character,' which is highly limiting on the scope of those games.

doppelgreener

@Emrakul it's the thing that dies if you try to make one in deadEarth

2

BESW

07:34

@Emrakul It certainly does! Is it codified? No. Is it fluid and context-dependent? Yes. Is it recognisably unique to the RP medium? Also yes.

Zach

Pretty much what BESW said

user61230

@BESW I'm not sure "has an aggregate of features and traits that form its individual nature as a conscious entity" is incomplete.

AgentPaper

I think a more useful definition of a role-playing game is a game where the rules are built to support and fulfill the roles that the players take up, rather than the roles being subsidiary to the rules and mechanics of the game.

Zach

@Emrakul It's not incomplete. It's just vague, and therefore unhelpful to the end goal

user61230

@Zach It's broad, but I don't think it's vague.

AgentPaper

07:36

In a role-paying game, the rules are there to give structure to what the players are trying to do, whereas in other games the structure is the game.

Zach

Broad, then. Still unhelpful when trying to find an exact answer

user61230

@AgentPaper The same could be true of a highly limiting role-playing game.

AgentPaper

@Emrakul What do you mean?

user61230

@Zach I'm not sure it's unhelpful, either. With it, I can clearly define what is and is not a character, and that's what I need.

Zach

Well, for one thing; Golems

Golems are not concious entities, but they Can be NPCs

user61230

07:37

@AgentPaper I could argue that in a war simulation game, you can roleplay a general, but the structure of the game is the game.

doppelgreener

@AgentPaper well.... you say that, but then I'm looking at D&D, where things people want to do with their characters are rarely supported well and, if they are, rarely a good idea. And I'm playing games where I can say "I want my character to be able to do X" and the system says "sure!" and so long as it's kinda related to the ethos of the system, it'll work well.

user61230

@Zach If a Golem isn't conscious, then the player isn't making choices on behalf of the Golem.

AgentPaper

@Emrakul Yes, and thus those aren't role-playing games.

Zach

No, the DM is

DMs play characters... on average, vastly more than the other players do

user61230

@AgentPaper What about a war game presented as a role-playing game in which you play the role of a general and make choices as a general, but it's just repackaged Warhammer 40k?

Zach

07:39

As a DM, I've played a tree... and not even a talking one!

AgentPaper

@doppelgreener Well, not so much what the players want to happen, in the moment-to-moment action, but rather that the rules obey the overall structure of the world that the players (as a whole) want to play in.

BESW

Hypothesis: An RPG is a form of collaborative play wherein the resultant narrative is the primary product of the experience.
Challenge: "I play D&D to hang out with my friends."

Zach

Again, I think it'd be best on a scale

An RPG is anything that incorporates aspects of playing a game, and acting out a role

Chess is an RPG: so long as the moves you make are based on a role you decide to portray

AgentPaper

@Emrakul None of that really matters. What matters is whether the players are free to roam beyond the typical limitations of the rules. For example, what if the player decides that he wants to equip his guardsmen with long spears and shields instead of their normal equipment? In a role-playing game, this is totally fair, even if the rules don't support it directly.

Zach

RPGs are games that incorporate roleplaying somehow... whether they focus more on the game part, or the roleplaying part, is irrelevant

So long as you have both

user61230

07:42

@AgentPaper What if the rules say "The player can roam beyond every other rule in this book except this one."? Arguably, in Diplomacy, I can say that I, as the French general, am wearing a silly hat.

user61230

Now the French general is wearing a silly hat. I can go outside the rules simply because I choose to.

Zach

I'd just like to point out: If you violate the rules of a game to incorporate roleplaying elements, you are no longer playing That game... you are playing "[name's] homebrew version of [game]"

AgentPaper

Sure, but the french general having a silly hat has no effect on the game. The role of a french general with a silly hat is still subsidiary to the rules of the game, it doesn't change anything.

user61230

Neither does my RPG character donning rouge (in many RPGs) have any impact on the game.

user61230

That doesn't make it any less valid that I did it.

Zach

07:45

Because it's more based in the roleplaying aspect, not the game aspect, is what's important

BESW

I'm going to name an NPC "Donning Rouge."

2

He's probably a David Bowie impersonator.

AgentPaper

@Emrakul Sure it does. It's called a disguise, or perhaps a bonus to charisma checks.

Zach

@BESW You remind me so much of someone I know IRL, it's almost scary

user61230

@Zach What about people who play D&D to run combat scenarios?

user61230

@AgentPaper In many role-playing games, trivial changes are irrelevant.

AgentPaper

07:47

@Emrakul They're playing the combat part of DnD, ignoring the larger role-playing parts. If you only ever do pure by-the-book combat in DnD, then you aren't playing a role-playing game.

Zach

@Emrakul They're playing a roleplaying game. Even if they do it solely for the combat, so long as they have characters that they're taking on the role of, even in a minor way, they're still playing an RPG

Just one that's more focused on the game aspect than the roleplay aspect

So, an 8 or a 9 on the scale

BESW

[looks at both responses] [is amused]

user61230

Which is honestly kind of the point I've been trying to make.

AgentPaper

@Zach See, that's getting into the "useless definition" territory again. By that logic, almost every game is a role-playing game.

Zach

Not quite. That's the purpose of the scale

2-9, it's an RPG

user61230

07:49

I posit the following definitions:

Zach

1, you're playing a role, 10, you're playing a game

user61230

> Role-playing game: A game in which (per the rules of the game,) you play a role.
> Role: A character assigned or assumed.
> Character: An entity with an aggregate of features and traits that form the individual nature of it as a conscious being.

Zach

I disagree with character

a character does not have to be self-aware

AgentPaper

If you define a roleplaying game as literally, "A game wherein you play a role" then you're being true to the words that make up the phrase, but ignoring all of the meaning that the term has built-up over the years.

Zach

Built-up meaning is just another way of saying 'standards imposed by the society that adopted it'

user61230

07:50

@AgentPaper I then proceed to define exactly what I mean by "role."

AgentPaper

Yes, that is how words get definitions.

user61230

@Zach Not necessarily self-aware, just conscious. Able to make decisions.

Zach

Words get definitions by everyone agreeing what they mean... The problem? People Don't agree what, exactly, RPG means

Golems Don't make decisions... they just do as programmed

BESW

Posit: There is no useful objective definition of RPG except in the context of the community which consumes them.

Zach

I still say a scale would work, and extremely well

user61230

07:52

@BESW Disagree. While a definition may evolve over time, and while a definition may be subjectively-valid, I posit that all words can be rigorously defined.

BESW

I know it when I see it

The phrase "I know it when I see it" is a colloquial expression by which a speaker attempts to categorize an observable fact or event, although the category is subjective or lacks clearly defined parameters. The phrase was famously used in 1964 by United States Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart to describe his threshold test for obscenity in Jacobellis v. Ohio. In explaining why the material at issue in the case was not obscene under the Roth test, and therefore was protected speech that could not be censored, Stewart wrote: I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material...

Not all rigorous definitions are actionably useful.

AgentPaper

@Emrakul I think the very discussion we're having is a pretty strong disproof of that statement.

Zach

@Emrakul Yes, words Can be defined... by the group that uses the term. However, if the group is in disagreement over the exact definition, then it Can't be rigorously defined, as it will hold different meanings to different people, and therefore not have an universally excepted meaning to Be defined

user61230

@AgentPaper I found a definition that works for me. I'd guess that if you thought about it hard enough, you could find a definition you found satisfactory for yourself.

user61230

That's what I mean by "subjectively valid" - it makes sense to you, and though your definition's validity is subjective, you can still rigorously define it.

AgentPaper

07:54

@Emrakul Yes, but that's a personal definition, not a "rigorous" definition.

user61230

@BESW The reason "I know it when I see it" exists is because even though a rigorous definition can be found, it's only subjectively-valid.

BESW

As we've seen just now, different members of the RPG community don't just define the words differently, but have actively conflicting notions about the scope of physical things and actions which the words should contain.

user61230

@AgentPaper Rigorous means fully-written, and able to discern RPG/not-RPG for each game in existence.

Zach

Can we all just agree that rolling dice is fun?

4

user61230

(I'm using a mathematical definition of rigorous)

AgentPaper

07:55

Ah, I was thinking "objective" for some reason.

Zach

Thus the sliding scale I suggested!

2-9, RPG

1, you're acting

10, you're playing tic-tac-toe or the like

user61230

@Zach What about a LARP?

Zach

That'd be about a 3 or a 4

BESW

@Zach By your own admission, freeform RPGs --which are widely considered to be role-playing games-- don't fall within the scope of what you consider to be RPGs.

Zach

More playing a role than a game, but they still have game-based elements

So far as I'm aware, LARPs Have rules

As in, mechanics for how to 'play'

user61230

07:58

Not all LARPs have rules (besides the metagame rules required for safety).

BESW

Now I have to go make my famous tofu scramble. ttfn

Zach

Which would make them a 2

Those specific larps

user61230

Hmm. Maybe I don't understand what you mean by "acting."

Zach

As, if nothing else, the person who is playing the role is the one making the decisions for their character

Thus, 'playing'

When you're 'acting' you're following a script

You have no control over your character... or you're not supposed to

All your effort is going towards portraying that character as it was intended to be portrayed

user61230

Hrrm. Still, I'm not sure I understand the dichotomy between acting and playing tic-tac-toe - how do RPGs fall somewhere between there?

Zach

08:01

If the intent, at any time, diverts from 'depicting a pre-defined role' it is, at least in part, a game

In that 'anything' can be a game, so long as those involved agree it is. Generally, when acting, those involved would not consider it a 'game'

Miniman

By that logic, both ends of your scale are where your actions are incredibly constrained.

Zach

Where as a 'game' is any set of rules designed towards the purpose of amusement, in theory, or restrictions on actions to accomplish a task, in practice

@Miniman yes, actually

A 1 on the scale is pretty much just acting... not much veriation

A 10 would be more broad, but it would be things like 'ball in a cup' or soccer

Where any rules that exist to incorporate roleplaying are added by the players

If you have a 10 that the group adds roleplaying elements to, it becomes a different game that I'd refer to as [name]'s RPing edition of [game]

Which would then be a 9

Where as anyone who takes acting, a 1, and adds some form of mechanics to it, such as scoring or the like, would make it a 2

And would, by extension, be creating a game that Is a 2 on the scale

Though, likely the scale would need to be extended, possibly to a 1-20

user61230

I think you are overlapping two completely different scales

user61230

One of which is a scale of how much you're playing a character, and the other is how rigid the rules of the game are.

Zach

Yea... the more rigid the rules for playing a character are, the less You're playing the character, and the more the game is playing it for you

BESW

08:11

[wanders in for a moment] Man, I'd like to see you play some Forge games.

Zach

@BESW I can only assume you're talking to me, but I can't tell if you're being serious or sarcastic

Doesn't help that I've never heard of Forge

Or at least don't know it by name

BESW

I'm quite serious. You've got some interesting notions, but @Emrakul's right that you're conflating some rather disparate notions. I'd like to see you play My Life With Master and do some theatre analysis and then see what you can come up with after you've got that under your belt.

I think an axis might be more accurate and useful to describe the complexities involved.

Zach

Hmm... that I'd agree with

I was originally picturing a D&D style alignment chart, but reduced it to a sliding scale for the sake of simplicity

BESW

The two elements you're addressing do not have the direct inverse correlation you're ascribing to them, so it makes no sense for them to be at opposite ends of a line.

Zach

I don't know... it seems to me that any game that has more rigid mechanics, where the actions of your character and the mechanics are actually tied to one another in a significant way, allows for less actual control of the character

BESW

08:16

They'd be more comfortable as their own sliding scales at right angles to each other, though I'm not sure they're sufficient to describe the subject.

@Zach And this is why I'd like to see you engage with RPGs and the theatre in the spaces where the two elements are both utilised in tandem.

Zach

For example, I could say that monopoly with people pretending to be the people buying the land is a RPG... but I'd only actually consider it one if the roles they played had to effect the decisions made in the game

Or even the opposite, where they had to act out the kind of person who'd make said decisions

BESW

My Life With Master has some of the most uncompromisingly stringent rules I've ever seen, with no room for wiggle or deviation. They're designed to (and successfully achieve) force the player into greater pathos and catharsis by immersing him in his character against his will.

Metool

[facedesk]

[facedesk some more]

user61230

@Metool I do not understand why you injure yourself thusly.

BESW

On the other end of the spectrum, Laurence Olivier would not be famous if the mark of an actor is to occupy a role defined for him by others: his Hamlet is definitive because he made it his own, not because he became the Hamlet of Shakespeare.

(Leaving aside the role of ad-libbing, thribbling, and other improvisation crucial to the craft.)

Zach

08:21

That... gets dangerously close to what I'd call good acting

See, my definition of what a role is supposed to be is not limited by the intent of the author

BESW

The mutability of rules and the freedom for a character's motives to influence his action are not correlated.

Now, I'm burning my tofu..

Metool

@Emrakul Prime lack of quality control on this supplement I picked up. The tank has 4 fewer HP than they should for all the choices they've made, while the psion has one more HP than the maximum they should have and one fewer PP than the minimum they should have.

user61230

@Metool [facedesk]

Zach

Sounds more like bad math...

user61230

@BESW Muahaha! Our dastardly plan to force you to burn your tofu has succeeded! Live in mild discomfort briefly! Muahahahaha!

Metool

08:24

@Zach I have word from one of the staff that they very much didn't check the numbers before sending it to print.

The pregenerated characters I speak of were submitted by fans in a contest.

Zach

So, yea... bad math. Not lack of quality control

They didn't control their quality... because it's not Their quality. It's fan service

Metool

[facedesk]

Zach

@BESW After reading up on the game you mentioned... I'd call it a 6 or a 7 on the scale. Heavy emphasis on the roleplaying, but from what I can tell, how you portray the character is still heavily influenced by the games mechanics

BESW

@Zach And that's why I think you should play it: reading the game, especially without the context of the Forge community's philosophies from which it was born, you naturally imagine it playing out like games you do have experience with. I did too.

Zach

From what I read, you say what you want to do, someone roles dice, and then you act out what the dice say happens

BESW

08:38

Actually playing MLWM was a medium-redefining experience for me, and it has the chance to be so for you as well, revising your notions about the necessary and foundational interrelationship between mechanics and characters.

@Zach That is exactly what it is not.

You don't roll the dice until the end of a scene, and the dice may have no effect at all on any physical events within it.

Zach

Then someone needs to re-write the wikipedia page on it

BESW

Yes, Wikipedia pages for games are often insufficient, if not outright inaccurate.

Zach

Quote: "A player describes what their minion is trying to do, be it carrying out their Master's wishes or trying to resist him, interacting with the Townsfolk, attempting an act of Love (which could result in increasing their "Love" trait, or increasing their "Self-loathing" if the attempt fails), etc. A series of dice rolls are used to determine success or failure, and then the scene is played out according to that outcome"

Though... I Could be reading that wrong

BESW

That is wrong.

Except in very specific instances, the dice influence the emotional content of the scene rather than the success or failure of an action, they are NEVER rolled in series, and several other subtle elements are inaccurate.

Zach

See, it's hard to form an opinion about a game when I can't find an accurate description of that game... and whether or not I'd want to play a game is based on my opinion of it

BESW

08:43

Aye.

Zach

At least for right now, I've got too little free time to try a game solely to see if I like it, with no guarantee I will

BESW

I'm not saying you should play it. I'm saying that your scale/axis concept will be necessarily incomplete and inaccurate unless/until you're more familiar with the things you're describing.

Zach

Oh, I have no intent on being the one to define the scale

BESW

MLWM would be a good thing to look into if you're interested in doing the research.

Zach

I just have a general idea of what it should be, and gave an example of what it would look like

I'd much rather see someone more heavily invested undertake that task

If it even showed up somewhere on a website like TVtropes as an article, or something like that... "The RPG scale," for example, I'd be happy

doppelgreener

09:09

1

Q: What's the best way to make travel time more interesting?

My players are going from Neverwinter to Comyr in D&D 4e Forgotten Realms. So, what I do everytime they travel is, learned from The Order of the Stick, a single random encounter (which, honestly, is bothering me) and a detailed description of how the world looks different geographically speaking...

this question is really weird for me

it has the [dnd-4e] and [dungeons-and-dragons] and [system-agnostic] and all of those feel right at home being there.

Miniman

@doppelgreener And [time-travel]?

doppelgreener

@Miniman well, that one too

Miniman

@doppelgreener That feels at home to you?

doppelgreener

... i am an idiot and read those two words the wrong way around

suddenly the question makes more sense to me

Miniman

Based on the evidence I have, I don't think you're an idiot.

...Although you did ignore the tag where all of my awesome answers are, so there's an argument there...

:P

doppelgreener

09:18

@Miniman i only put it on my ignore list today!

so it's ok

it's only your future awesome answers that i will be less likely to be enlightened by

Miniman

[shakes fist]

Although I suppose it's one less competitor for 5e answers...

doppelgreener

Apparently I've made a whole five 5e answers. I guess there is some statistical significance to be had with me being less likely to answer them.

BESW

@doppelgreener Have you seen any Original Star Trek?

doppelgreener

@BESW I've seen Wrath of Khan.

BESW

I'm watching The Return of the Archons and it's giving me Ideas for our campaign.

doppelgreener

09:28

@Miniman Mainly it's that when I see D&D 5e questions I'm increasingly holding off on them to let the 5e-playing community here define their own standards and stuff, so I'd rather put those less in my view so I just deal with the stuff that hits the review queue.

Miniman

@doppelgreener Unfortunately there's a tendency I've noticed among the RPG.SE 5e segment to prefer answering enthusiastically to closing or downvoting, and I think we need as many site members keeping an eye on us as possible.

Wait, nvm.

I just went back and actually read what you just said properly.

doppelgreener

Yeah if something goes to the close vote queue my eye will be on it :)

BESW

10:41

Mmm. Organic ketchup not only tastes like a totally different, much more awesome, sauce compared to regular ketchup, it makes an excellent base/foundation for sauces.

I used it to tie together my tofu spicing tonight.

(Other things that went into the pan with the tofu: onion, garlic, cayenne pepper, black pepper, Pohnpeian pepper, tumeric, cumin, Tobasco, non-fish Worchester sauce, soy sauce, honey, garlic powder, olive oil.)

Miniman

12:58

@BESW Worcester sauce that's...not made from anchovies?

Is that even legal?

BESW

@Miniman Some of the cheaper brands don't have fish. Since my mother generally avoids animal products, and they're cheaper, it works out.

Miniman

@BESW Weird. I thought the whole, you know, concept of Worcester sauce was fermented anchovy sauce.

BESW

Yes, well, the other day I saw a jar of something calling itself "Jet-puffed Marshmallow creme" and I don't know how you can jet-puff a creme either.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio.

Magician

Old but good, D&D stats explained via tomatoes:

3

Miniman

I hadn't heard the Charisma bit before lol.

BESW

13:07

Hmm.

> Strength is being able to bench-press an owlbear.
Dexterity is being able to hogtie an owlbear.
Constitution is being able to survive either of those activities.
Intelligence is knowing where owlbears come from.
Wisdom is waiting until later to explain that.
Charisma is not sounding like an idiot when you tell people how you got that scar from bench-pressing a hogtied owlbear.

4

Joshua Aslan Smith

14:23

lol

Guten Morgen

JohnP

Guten Morgen

BESW

Mr. Morgan isn't here right now, but Miss Nacht is available.

JohnP

Guten Abend?

ich bin Arizonan

Aaaand...I'm done. Out of German.

Oh wait. NEIN!

ok. now I'm done.

BESW

14:42

Eine kleine natchsprechen?

JohnP

a little night something? I would only guess that because of eine kleine nachtmusik (A little night music)

BESW

Do you know the phrase Sprechen sie Deutsch?

JohnP

Yes, but I don't.

BESW

Aye, but it gives you the context clue for completing the previous phrase.

goodnight.

doppelgreener

15:01

@BESW well done

Joshua Aslan Smith

15:16

@besw Ich war eine Deutschsprach studenten im Hochschule, aber ich habt nichts studerien est fur zehn jahre.

all of those endings were undoubtably wrong

My german literacy has devolved to whatever the german equivalent of middle school ebonics would be

also I have zero idea of what form of "it" to use in this case and just pulled one out of my butt

and you are asleep already

@besw Schlaf schon

JohnP

15:46

@JoshuaAslanSmith - I can order food and get my face slapped in 6 languages. I figure that's enough to be a world traveler.

David Wilkins

16:12

I'm pondering ways of screwing with my DM...I don't like these thoughts

JohnP

@DavidWilkins - Malicious? Or still with the nerfing of spells at random?

David Wilkins

Still with the nerfing spells because they don't fit his story...Its ravenloft and he is trying to fit a 5e adventure into that setting and whe really has no idea what he is doing

JohnP

Well, you have three choices. Walk, talk with him about it, or screw with him. I'd personally go with option 3, so that he gets an idea why what he's doing isn't working.

David Wilkins

I've tried option 2, and so have the rest of, conceding that ultimately it is his choice. So now I just want to mess with him. Sadly, I don't expect his campaign to be rich enough to offer many chances

I suppose I could fireball someone who might or might not be a plot-hook

My sorcerer has relatively high AC and HP for 5e :)

JohnP

Hrm. That is bad.

David Wilkins

16:20

I don't want to walk, he's only got a few DM sessions before one of our more experienced DMs takes over (not in ravenloft, which I am kindof sad about)

user61230

If the campaign isn't going right, don't screw with it - just leave.

user61230

It's not going to be enjoyable.

user61230

But even fewer people will be happy if you start poking holes and making things more difficult.

JohnP

@DavidWilkins - Is he an interim DM?

David Wilkins

He wanted to try it for a month, and he had plenty of time to prepare. As a character, he's a munchkin, and as a DM it looks like he's going to be doing a lot of fiat to get his way

Our group is really bad when it comes to blatently ignoring plot hooks :P

user61230

16:27

If it's short, just stick it through and give constructive feedback along the way.

David Wilkins

Yeah, I still wanna mess with him though, even if it's just a tiny bit...I don't think I would actually nuke a plot device

user61230

I mean, you can, but I doubt you'll make friends doing it?

user61230

Up to you, though.

Joshua Aslan Smith

16:44

hey, anyone know how I can see the feed itself directly for the room?

nvm found out lol

CLOSE VOTES

-1

Q: Which class can do the most damage?

In DnD 5e, which race+class can do the most damage in a single round? Conditions: No dual classes Level 20, no epic boons Feats are fair game, but only as many as could be gained normally No magic gear, scrolls, or potions Assume the enemy has no resistance/immunity to anything the character do...

dnd-5e combat optimization

@DavidWilkins ignore your impulse, the best case is you ruin the story and everyone has a chuckle and time is wasted, worst case you anger/incite your dm whom I assume is a friend.

This is essentially an out of game issue about the system that should be dealt with there, not in the game

JohnP

17:07

sigh 2153 more rep. Sad panda.

David Wilkins

@JoshuaAslanSmith He isn't someone I would hang out with outside of D&D, and even though I disagree with his play style, we get along as players for the most part. I just have an issue with his changing a spell because he couldn't imagine a way to deal with it in-story. What that probably means is he's not cut out to DM and he'll realize that...or not....But you're all right, it's not my place to sabotage him...I just wanted to vent

JohnP

For the DM's in the group: When you have an overarching story arc, do you plan out every stage for the characters? Or do you set the stage and guide as necessary?

GamerJosh

@JohnP The later; but when possible I get as much buy-in from the players as I can (without giving away the important bits) before-hand, so they understand what the story is "intended" to be about

JohnP

17:22

@GamerJosh - Ok, then I'm on the right track. I set that stage (artifact gatherers for the city states for a possible upcoming "battle for the world"), and am planning on running a pregen module for the first one. At the end, I'll give them a glimpse of the ultimate evil waiting patiently for them.

user61230

('pologies)

GamerJosh

@JohnP Sounds good to me! =)

JohnP

@Emrakul - Noted on the deletion, but if the players have pointed out the shortcomings and his response is basically "nertz to you"?

user61230

@JohnP Personally, I'd leave

user61230

It's probably just not my kind of game, and/or the GM isn't very good. What it really comes down to, though, is: if I'm not having fun, why am I playing?

user61230

17:30

Something I think GMs forget all the time: they're there to (help) entertain before anything else.

JohnP

@Emrakul - True, but it sounds like the guy is an interim DM, so it's essentially suffer in silence then vent in chat. :p

Anyone here paint miniatures?

David Wilkins