TRPG General Chat

BESW

01:35

Character note: Someone who can legitimately respond to "How's it going?" with "As prophesied."

BESW

02:22

A gentle reminder that no, Twitter has not destroyed civilization. But, please, be patient.

Tweeted by NeinQuarterly on January 3, 2015 at 1:39 AM

Metool

And pulled from tumblr: "A LOCKET MY GREAT AUNT ALICE’S GRANDFATHER’S SON HANDCRAFTED FROM KING ARTHUR’S SWORD WELDED WITH PHOENIX TEARS AND THE BLOOD OF A WOOD NYMPH"

The Oracle

02:41

0

Q: Off-site Community Promotion Ads

As far as I know, we don't have any RPG.SE ads to submit to the Community Promo metas on other Stacks. (We have this ad made by Jin for general web promo, but it's the wrong size and shape for Community Promo metas.) Going through our own Community Promo metas, I noticed that other Stacks have be...

Shalvenay

03:10

@Metool: *chucks said locket in the reprocessor*

"Your worthless baubles fail to impress me."

BESW

03:50

Idea request: traps and hazards for an Indiana-Jones-style temple dungeon.

Shalvenay

04:32

heh

problem I just hit -- how do you deal with social contract/"what game are you playing to begin with" issues when someone refuses to talk OOCly with you?

I mean -- after a bunch of IC stuff, I ask the other player OOC if a dungeon crawl is what he had in mind, since that's what the IC stuff seemed to be telling me as a player -- and he responds "No metagaming."

how is it metagaming when you're trying to agree on the nature of the game to begin with?

Miniman

He might see it as spoliers for what he has planned.

AgentPaper

Well, I mean that's basically the definition of metagaming.

But metagaming isn't inherently bad.

Shalvenay

@Miniman -- the details? sure. but something as fundamental as that? he's failing to grasp what @AgentPaper said -- metagaming can work with a RP, not just against it

AgentPaper

I guess ask about it after the game, if they're that adamant about it.

Miniman

@Shalvenay I didn't say he was right, just that that's what he might have thought.

BESW

04:36

Yeeah, I find the expectation that players can find common ground in-game without out-of-game contact is only sustainable when playing with people you know well who are already on your own wavelength.

And even then, it's usually doomed to blow up eventually.

AgentPaper

Or by luck, but yeah.

Shalvenay

@BESW -- exactly

BESW

This is, I think, one of the fundamental driving forces behind the RPG community's common illusions that individual experience can be generalised to common experience across all facets of the medium.

Shalvenay

@BESW -- so much yes, many times so when RPing online even!

when you have someone who doesn't even answer to out-of-character contact ingame

BESW

When talking about your experience with your other players is a cultural taboo, it's natural to miss the fact that even within a single group experiences can be extremely variegated. It may tie into the "Geek Fallacy" notion that friends' Venn diagrams of interest perfectly overlap.

Shalvenay

05:05

@BESW -- I'm a far-outlier in some regards in my own group, even, which makes matters worse in this case

KRyan

06:33

@Shalvenay this person scares me

Shalvenay

06:47

@KRyan -- I'm not sure what to make of him myself -- if I may ask, though, how so?

also -- strange crossover RP -- Kerbals on Oerth ;P

KRyan

@Shalvenay just... that's a kind of dogmatic dedication to something that even with the briefest consideration obviously cannot work

it worries me that he's so blinded by what he's been told is the right way to play that he can't see the obvious problems

Shalvenay

...yeah.

what worries me is how he'd react to the only first-order IC ways I can think of of demonstrating how his dogma is misleading him...

@KRyan -- it doesn't help that there's plenty of dysfunction to go around -- including some very fundamental disagreements about what the game is and how it's intended to be played

KRyan

@Shalvenay not a fun situation, sorry to hear that

Shalvenay

(when you have a proto-MMO that is split between sandbox and themepark aspects roughly down the middle, and a player community with a Romanticist majority and a very small Classicist minority...it can really get aggravating for a hardcore Classicist like me. the bigger problem is that sandboxy fantasy MMOs seem to have gone the way of the dodo!)

BESW

07:13

The big unanswered question for me is why and how a "hardcore Classicist" like you joined --and more importantly, is devoted to staying in-- an ill-defined but firmly Romantic RP community, rather than seeking out groups with less diametrically-opposed playstyles.

KRyan

I don't know that I actually know what those terms mean

AgentPaper

Classicist: World > Person. Romanticist: Person > World.

Essentially, from what I've gathered.

BESW

@KRyan He's using terms defined in this article. Effectively "Classicist" play is interested in using rational, logical, definitional information to determine outcome resolution while "Romantic" play is interested in using emotional, narrative, motive-based to decide the outcome of events.

KRyan

ah

and I suppose they're playing some D&D-flavored thing?

BESW

(See my four-starred entry about dragon bravery on the sidebar.)

KRyan

07:19

makes sense

BESW

@KRyan Most of his peers want the dragon to swash its buckles, while he's more interested in torque forces and the mechanical implications of biological entities obeying air-traffic regulations.

AgentPaper

When the Classicist is stabbed he takes 1d6 damage. When the Romanticist is stabbed he makes a speech.

4

BESW

Unfortunately, all elements concerned have a hard time getting around the idea that their approach is somehow inherently superior to the others'. "Tell dramatic stories" is seen as diametrically opposed to "solve challenges efficiently," and both feel their priority is objectively more "fun."

KRyan

@BESW this makes me sad because I am ill inclined to see the two approaches as mutually exclusive

my group very happily does both all the time, though we do fall relatively hard on the, uh, "Classicist" side?

but we still have dramatic stories and value that highly

BESW

Yeah. At the end of the day it's a false dichotomy that's only really a problem if the style and tools leveraged by each participant are at odds.

Which, in this case, they are.

KRyan

07:25

@BESW right

BESW

Shalvenay wants his encounters to be rooted in physics and research-based realism, which is effort the others aren't interested in making. The others want stories where characters get in their own way, which he's finding hard to do without making bumbling idiots.

And so forth.

KRyan

can't say that either sounds particularly appealing, personally

BESW

You may have noticed his several attempts at sorting this bog out into viable Stack questions.

2

@KRyan Well, a lot of good drama comes from internal conflict, or a character who knowingly makes a poor choice for compelling reasons.

But the group has to all be on board with it, and there's some learning curve in terms of when to have your character straighten up and fly right so it doesn't get in the way of others' fun.

Skull Armchair, "Built for comfort and world domination."

AgentPaper

@BESW From the sound of it, it is a dichotomy, though. Classicist games can certainly have stories, and Romanticist ones can have logic. The difference comes in which one determines the outcome of events, not which one exists.

BESW

@AgentPaper Aye, it's a weird line to trod.

And the whole thing is built on false extremes, so practical examples are always going to be exceptions.

The categories are basically a thought experiment.

...well, maybe something like My Life With Master is a real-world example of extreme Romanticism, because that's the point of it.

KRyan

07:37

anyway, night folks

BESW

ttfn

Shalvenay

@BESW -- I'm trying to figure it out myself -- part of the problem is that the backdrop I want is extremely rare (I'm after a sandboxy fantasy MMO -- which is an extremely scarce creature in this day and age)

(if not for the ships-in-space/SF aspects, EVE Online would be exactly what I'm after -- I consider it worthy of 2 subbed accounts precisely because the sandboxiness is so darn awesome)

AgentPaper

I actually have a few design ideas on how to make a sandbox fantasy game work.

Not sure how much use they'd be to you, since they're mostly about making it easier for the players to get into the action, but there's a few on how the world itself would work as well, if you're interested.

BESW

07:53

Depending on what's meant by "sandbox" (it's one of those words everyone thinks is obvious, but everyone has a different version of it), I've done several tabletop sandbox games.

But right now I'm restarting my computer. bbl.

AgentPaper

Sandbox being, the players are the main drivers behind the action. They determine where the battles are fought, what the stakes are, what items are being used, how much those cost, etc.

Most of the changes, though, would be designed such that you could essentially have two broad types of player: the Drivers, and the Riders. The Drivers are the players who are in it for the full sandbox, they'd be guild leaders, special ops people, politicians, capitalists, that kind of thing.

Riders would be the people who take a more passive role, and mostly do what the drivers say. They'd be the soldiers fighting the battles, craftsmen, resource producers, etc.

These wouldn't be strictly defined, but basically if a player wants to be able to log in, have a clear goal to chip away at a bit, then log back off, they can do that.

Or, if they want to strike out for the unknown, shake things up, and really make a difference in the world, they can do that, too.

One example of this is the "mercenary" system. Basically, players can queue up as mercenaries, which can then be hired by other players to do various short-term things: fight in a battle, protect a caravan, drive off bandits, etc.

Basically like a PUG in a more traditional game, but it's other players that are hiring you, not nameless NPCs.

Of course, having a hand-built, well coordinated team will be preferable in many situations, but mercs let the Driver players throw down cash to get some "bulk" in their operations, and it gives Rider players an easy way to click a few buttons and get into some action without having to put in all the work and time you'd normally need to join a guild, get the spec they need, get on whatever teamspeak, wait for a time you can do something with them, etc, etc.

BESW

09:12

@JohnP I'll add that to the Cool Stuff sticky next time I update it (Morningstar KS ends in 40 hours, so I'll do it then).

Anybody got anything else for me to add to the Cool Stuff sticky?

BESW

09:25

This edition of the Hidden Almanac suggests an amusing plot hook: the Sigil Party.

(I'm listening to my backlog of Almanacs while waiting for my players.)

Saint Sebastian of Drog was martyred by a septic paper cut, and is the patron saint of those who refuse medical attention.

BESW

10:05

We are playing Roll For Shoes, as salespeople in a hardware & home improvement warehouse store, competing for Employee of the Month.

I'm trying to snipe the other guy's customers.

Someone just got upsold from a camping tent, to a Jeep with a Jacuzzi.

Metool

Jeep? Really?

BESW

...it is a very well-stocked store.

My opponent salesman just accidentally sold a Gatling gun attachment to a guy without doing the proper background check. He's trying to erase the evidence from the store computer.

Metool

Ooh, wow.

BESW

He tried to frame me for it.

Metool

So is it an attachment for gatling guns, or a gatling gun that attaches to something else?

(Or both?)

BESW

10:12

It's a Gatling gun on the top of the Jeep (which is now upgraded to a Winnebago).

I gave him the manager's password instead of mine and tried to get him on security tape logging in on the manager's account. Unfortunately, he was able to avoid it.

I'm not doing too well.

Metool

What are your skills at the moment?

BESW

> Me:
Do Anything 1
Computer Savvy 2
Always Buy the Warranty 2
Features are Key 3

> Him:
Do Anything 1
Finding Customers 2
Guaranteed Satisfaction 2
Camera Savvy 2

user61230

10:25

[waaave]

Miniman

@Emrakul Hi!

user61230

How goes the battle, O Friends?

BESW

My character has given up on taking credit for the other guy's sale of the Gatling-gun-mounted RV, and instead I'm hacking the system to take credit for dozens of other, minor sales by all the other employees.

Quantity over quality!

user61230

@Shalvenay By the way, I've done a lot of freeform online roleplaying. If you're looking to discuss in more detail, I'm pretty much always available.

user61230

@BESW Live-typing RFS?

BESW

10:31

[grin] Yes.

user61230

Wonderful.

BESW

The other guy is desperately trying to keep his customer from leaving with an illegal Gatling gun.

user61230

If there is a peanut gallery, I am it.

user61230

Though there's likely not a peanut gallery.

user61230

I do like peanuts, though.

BESW

10:33

The Customers NPC just got "Remembering What They're Here For 2"

user61230

Ow

user61230

Classicist vs. Romanticist is the worst false dichotomy I've read in a long time.

BESW

And now the Customers have "I'm Not Going Back To Jail 2"

Dyndrilliac

I would tell the customer that they have just been the victim of an ATF sting targeted at people buying illegal gatling guns, and he needs to wait there to be detained. That will instantly make the customer want to hand the gun back and leave.

Miniman

@Emrakul Is it, though? It's pretty clear Shalvenay is playing a wildly different game to everyone else he plays with.

Dyndrilliac

10:45

@BESW So what distinguishes that custom minis kickstarter from Hero Forge?

user61230

@Miniman Absolutely, but the idea that it's classicist/romanticist seems like a serious false dichotomy to me.

BESW

The customer with the Jeep is opening fire on the mall cops.

3

user61230

Unless I'm totally misunderstanding... let me reread...

Miniman

@Emrakul Yeah, I don't know what exactly to call his playing style.

user61230

Yeah, I still think it's a false dichotomy. Though I agree, I'm not sure how I'd characterize his playing style...

Miniman

10:53

That said, I'm probably the worst possible person to discuss this with.

BESW

It's knowledge-based puzzle-solving, very similar to the "extreme optimiser" approach to D&D 3.5 except based on real life mechanics (IE, physics, laws, etc).

My character as of now:

> Do Anything 1
Customer Service 2
An Eye for Quantity 2
Computer Savvy 2
Always Buy the Warranty 2
Conniving 3
Features are Key 3
Sycophantic 3
Innocent 4

My opponent:

> Do Anything 1
Finding Customers 2
Guaranteed Satisfaction 2
Camera Savvy 2
Telepathy 3
Sneaky Mechanic 2
Covering up for mistakes 2
Friends with a mall cop 3
Fantastic Stories 2

The police just showed up.

user61230

Lucky you have a Gatling gun.

BESW

I just sold nine kevlar vests (with warranty!).

Gained skill Seize the Moment 3.

I've used one of the RV's many bonus features--an ejector seat--to toss the customer to the mall cops, and my opponent is now posing as the customer's attorney.

(I'm fine with this, as it will no doubt reduce his sales.)

...now I'm selling handguns (but no warranty) to my kevlar-vested customers.

My opponent is counselling traumatised customers, and I'm selling them incense and soothing music CDs.

I've got the more terrible character, and he's the one who sold an RV-mounted Gatling gun illegally and pretended to be legal council.

The Customers NPC just got the skill Buyer's Remorse 4.

The Department Store NPC just got Intimidating Management 4.

My opponent is selling his story to a news agency.

Metool

11:31

@BESW Hhhhow does one even apply that?

BESW

@Metool We haven't seen it in play yet. Management showed up.

"Staff Policy 3" is getting rolled a lot.

We're duking it out on the daily talk shows.

I have Spin Anything 4.

Miniman

That's gonna be awesome if you ever get into a spinning top competition.

BESW

He's organising a protest march.

He quit, and is leading an mob of pro-gun agitators against the store. I got promoted and have Managerial Powers 4.

I'm selling the mob a tank.

(Calling the cops while I keep them tied up in the paperwork.)

My opponent is trying to get them to annex the department store as a micro-nation.

....he succeeded. The game is over, because neither of us are getting Employee of the Month now.

Metool

11:54

Then who is?

Miniman

Wait, that was the objective of all this?

BESW

Yes.

2 hours ago, by BESW

We are playing Roll For Shoes, as salespeople in a hardware & home improvement warehouse store, competing for Employee of the Month.

> Customers:
Do Anything 1
Heckling 2
Live Dangerously 2
Remember what they’re here for 2
I’m not going back to jail 2
Hysterical 2
Live Safely 2
Being Stingy 3
Buyer’s Remorse 4
Exaggerating the story 3
Obscure Documentation 3
Watchful Eyes 3

Miniman

I'm really going to have to try this sometime. The escalation is just frightening.

BESW

RFS is definitionally escalating. And simultaneously it's all about on-the-fly worldbuilding.

Which dovetails nicely.

The first sale of the game was a lawn chair.

The second sale was a Winnebago with a Jacuzzi, waterbed, roof-mounted Gatling gun, ejector seat, and ALL other imaginable features.

The third sale was kevlar vests and handguns, to the customers caught in the shootout between Winnebago Guy and the mall cops.

The final sale was a tank.

Miniman

13:11

So close to 10k...

The Oracle

13:38

1

Q: (game-aids) vs. (tools)

What is the functional difference between game-aids and tools? The latter has a well-defined excerpt and description: An online or offline tool used in preparing or running a RPG. A device, software, online service, procedure or process used for a specific purpose in relationship to rolepl...

discussion tags

JohnP

15:57

Question - For arcane archer at 5th, it states "Every nonmagical arrow gains the distance weapon quality". Does that stack if you already have a clb of distance?

JohnP

16:54

nm. Read the next page. :/

Shalvenay

17:17

o/ @Emrakul

user61230

17:36

'ello, @Shalvenay!

Shalvenay

so, how's itgoing?

user61230

18:12

Sorry, little busy. Going well, though!

user61230

Robotics competition challenge was released. I kinda miss it.

Shalvenay

alright over here -- so yeah, I'm in a rather nasty bog re: RPing styles

user61230

Hmm... in what sense?

Shalvenay

basically -- I find myself in the pickle where my character's construction makes it very difficult for her to participate at all in other folks' RP without raining on somebody else's parade

in combat/adventure scenarios -- she can fill a variety of roles, but I tend to emphasize realism over drama, which really screws with the heads of many RPers who have not the foggiest clue what even a remotely realistic fight looks like

and outside of combat, she's a very direct, no-nonsense personality with a strong problem-solving drive, which clashes hardcore with the desire of other RPers to put the complexity of their RPs in the social/political domain

what makes it worse is that I seem to have all sorts of trouble wrapping my head around the idea of playing a character that's "balanced" from a narrative perspective

either they find ways to succeed consistently to the point where other folks don't want to challenge them, or they wind up being forcibly driven to fail, which makes for quite awkward RP

I've heard the old saw of "let your character fail" many times -- but it doesn't address the issue of your problem being with the let not the fail

user61230

20:40

@Shalvenay I have thoughts, but I'm rather busy. Can I get back to you later?

BESW

23:09

@Wrathchild [wave]

Wrathchild

@BESW Greets.

Ugh. So much good material. Tired of being out of votes.

(Tom Petty was right about one thing. The waiting is the hardest part.)

BESW

heh.

Shalvenay

23:32

@Emrakul -- was AFK myself :) so fire away when you're ready

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