TRPG General Chat

Joshua Aslan Smith

17:05

smh over 80 positive net upvotes on the macgyver answer

Aaron

smh?

Joshua Aslan Smith

shake my head

I think its a correct answer but I definitely dont think its one of my best answers

Aaron

Grr.

I hate knowing an answer but not being able to provide a source

Lord_Gareth

levelthecomic.com/comics/01-02-54

wax eagle

17:24

@JoshuaAslanSmith the thing that gets me in that one is that the DM is afraid of his PC's improvisational abilities...I feel like most DMs would pay for players who did this

Joshua Aslan Smith

I feel like most DMs we know would pay for it

theres a lot of killer GM/Power GM stuff out there

wax eagle

good point

Joshua Aslan Smith

goes with the territory for a lot of other games that most of us here actively avoid

thats why those 5e questions are going to very very interesting

wax eagle

rpg.stackexchange.com/a/49900/1084 has the closest thing to my interpretation contained in it. My answer to this kind of question is "stop making improvisation overpowered"

4e's recommendation of giving "encounter power level" damage to repeatable improv actions is spot on to me

one offs can be as powerful as suits. But something the PCs can do over and over should be tempered.

want to throw molotavs in 5e? Great, they have an item cost of X (price of 2 flasks fo lamp oil), and they work like X (probably an area affect with low damage, or cantrip level damage with a small amount of splash with much less range).

Joshua Aslan Smith

yeah

toats

Tritium21

17:56

I still think this is a total communications breakdown at the table about what game is actually being played.

Joshua Aslan Smith

oh no doubt

Tritium21

Tangent: I would not run MacGyver games in a system like fate. I think they actually would work better with crunchier rules - gurps, hero...

Joshua Aslan Smith

interesting I think they work eminently well in fate theyre just approaches basically

Tritium21

I see a MacGyver game as exploiting (not in the bad sense) the rules in a non-traditional way. Fate is very loose with the rules to begin with, you cant really exploit it in interesting ways. Fate tries too much to get out of the way.

Actually

Both will work, depending on how you want to play

...Trying to flag a question for migration, but it will only let me flag it for meta

0

Q: The Silver Age Science & The Civil Rights Movement

So i'm trying to create a time travel setting that focuses on the actions of people involved in the american civil rights movement. I'm looking for system-neutral resources for the strengths, weaknesses, and personalities of the civil rights leaders but also have them involved in the scientific b...

should be the history beta se

wax eagle

@Tritium21 use a custom flag

Tritium21

18:07

@waxeagle Flagged it with another one of the problems

wax eagle

though tbh, it's not going to get migrated

Joshua Aslan Smith

hah

wax eagle

I vtc'd too broad, there's not really anything there to limit beyond period

Tritium21

yeah

0

Q: Differentiating between class level versus character level for alchemist discoveries

For the discoveries for alchemist, a good chunk of them say "An alchemist must be at least X level before selecting this discovery". Case in point: Explosive Missile: As a standard action, the alchemist can infuse a single arrow, crossbow bolt, or one-handed firearm bullet with the powe...

pathfinder character-levels alchemist class-level

I want to say that "<foo class> level" always means class level.

wax eagle

it's definitely hard to tell there. It's sufficiently ambiguous that it could go either way (though my first experience with differentiating has been 5e and I feel like it tries to be clearer)

I would read that as class level though

wax eagle

18:25

and there you go, generic rule to lend clarity where there was none

wax eagle

19:17

It's almost Dinovember!!!!

heh, 2 leader, 3 striker party no wonder they're cruising

Tritium21

19:41

...almost typed my comparative human anatomy message in here. Too tired. Going to bed.

lisardggY

Many of us are comparatively human, anatomically speaking.

Aaron

So I am thinking of running a game that is set in a video game. I am thinking of adding the idea of two types of currency. Normal gold and a more valuable in game money that is the kind you pay real money for. But as they will be stuck in the game they can't do this obviously so only way to get it would be quests and daily rewards. Is that too much?

lisardggY

The players will actually have to go do the daily quests?

Wouldn't that be taking a grinding mechanic that people don't actually enjoy and needless translating it to a medium where it's not needed?

Aaron

No the daily thing is more like the daily login reward.

They auto get like 1-5 per day. Maybe 1d6 or something.

lisardggY

We're talking about a tabletop game, right?

Aaron

19:48

Yea.

Let me explain. Sorry I tend to ask questions without context

I am going to be running a game where everyone plays a character who gets stuck in a video game. (Think Sword Are Online or Log Horizon). The goal is yet to be determined. It might be simply survive in the world or it might be to escape that is yet to be decided and is an end goal anyway.

lisardggY

Ok, that's pretty much what I guessed.

Aaron

I have most of the ideas ready but was curious about adding the dual currency in.

It doesn't seem too complicated to me. Normal gold gets you normal items and magic items up to +10 enhancement. you can spend the secondary currency on things like artifacts and such.

lisardggY

I can understand wanting to insert video game mechanics like grinding for "gold bars" or whatever the hard-to-obtain currency is, because it adds verisimilitude, it makes it feel like a video game. But to actually have the character perform the quests for it at every session to get the currency would be repetitive.

Unlike video games, we have a limited time around the table and we usually want to cram as many things into one session, unlike the video game dynamic of stretching your playtime over as many hours as possible.

I know I, personally, would be bummed if every session contained a generic quest just to get money, as opposed to interesting quests that advance the story, where the story might be "we need to make money for better gear".

Aaron

@lisardggY True. So maybe I could make the daily side quests a "choose your difficulty, Roll a d20 and add your level" You get X currency for Y difficulty

Just a quick 5 minute thing to do at the beginning of each session.

lisardggY

@Aaron Which would make it a "roll for money" that the characters aren't really invested in.

Aaron

19:54

Hmm.

lisardggY

It makes me think of the problems of skill challenges in D&D.

Aaron

Ok so if I do do this I need to avoid making it roll for money and grinding.

Hmmm.

lisardggY

I do like the idea of adding the "daily spin" trope into the game.

Aaron

Challenging.

@lisardggY Yes but that doesn't seem like enough to me. should that be the only way to get the currency?

lisardggY

I don't know if that's what you're aiming for, but in my mind, I can see every game session being limited by a limited number of lives, or moves, like many games. Make it a real part of the mechanics, not just the setting.

Every session starts with the full number of lives, and there's a daily spin that actually affects the game. The party spins the Wheel of Buffs, and receive - Fire Bonus! All their attacks deal an additional 1 point of fire damage for this session!

Aaron

19:57

@lisardggY Ohh. I like that

lisardggY

And the number of lives can be integrated into the game somehow, maybe like 13th Age's Escalation Die.

That is, a mechanic that is explicitly out-of-universe but still directly affects the game.

Aaron

@lisardggY I have not played that. What is it?

lisardggY

I haven't played it personally, but the idea is that combats should be short and dramatic. You place a d10 on the table at the beginning of combat, and increment it every round. This is the escalation die, and everybody - everybody - gets the number on the die as a bonus on all rolls. The longer combat drags on, the deadlier and more dramatic it gets.

Well, that's a very incomplete and imprecise description, but it gets the point across.

Here's a link that's actually based on the rules. forum.rpg.net/…

Aaron

@lisardggY Ah so a lot of abilities are dependent on the die.

lisardggY

Yeah, which is a bit I don't like as much.

I like how it encourages going all-out after a few rounds.

Aaron

20:02

The Players I have tend to be well more powerful than the monsters so maybe I will make some attacks for monsters. I tend to make up most monster stats anyway.

Shouldn't be too hard to say the dragon gets a powerful fire attack after X rounds

lisardggY

But that's just an example of using an out-of-universe mechanic. In this case, we want something videogamish. Are you aiming more for an MMO feel or a casual gaming Candy Crush/Farmville limited-action feel?

Aaron

MMO feel. Have you ever watched Sword art online or log horizon?

lisardggY

Nope.

Aaron

Quick description then.

SAO plot is players join a game (Sword art online) via a headset called nerve gear. They can feel, taste everything in the game. Problem is when people go to log out there is no logout button. They find out that they are stuck and to get out they have to beat the 100 floors of the game. If they die in the game they die for real. The nervegear effectively microwaves their brains if they die. If they try to remove it the same happens.

Log Horizon is similar but without the nerve gear. The players are actually physically in the world. Some accept this and just go about living in the world while others try to find a way home.

lisardggY

They die in real life!

My MMO experience is mostly WoW and some DDO. DDO is actually interesting because they've done exactly what you're doing - take existing tabletop mechanics and adapted them to the MMO medium. Maybe you should see what you can adapt from there.

Aaron

20:07

Both shows focus less on combat and more on the storyline.

@lisardggY DDO?

lisardggY

D&D Online

Aaron

Oh derp

dungeons and dragons online

I had a brain fart

lisardggY

For instance, spells-per-day has mostly been replaced by power-cooldowns.

Aaron

@lisardggY Clever lol

@lisardggY Hmm. That might work as we use the Spheres of Power system for magic. Limiting the spell points but making them refresh more often would be rather simple.

lisardggY

But for focusing on the non-combat MMO aspects, there are quite a few tropes that can be adapted. Shopkeepers and NPCs that always repeat the same dialog. Quests as a real thing in the world - they have a real, physical presence.

Aaron

20:09

@lisardggY So you mean make the NPCs in the game have repetitive dialog?

lisardggY

@Aaron Yeah. Repetitive dialog and no long-term memory. :)

Aaron

lol.

lisardggY

That's how you can make it feel like a video game setting, rather than just another fantasy setting.

Aaron

I was thinking about making quests a thing but instead of actual "Go kill this monster" Quests it would be a "Select a template" and I would generate a dungeon depending on what everyone selects.

lisardggY

It depends, though, on how you want to run it. You can do it really heavy-handedly using the MMO tropes, which will quickly turn into a bit of a parody, or you can just sprinkle them in occasionally to keep the feel up.

Aaron

20:12

@lisardggY Hmm. I kindof liked Log Horizons take though. They made the NPCs that used to be repetitive real so the players had to get used to the fact these were not mindless things you get quests from.

@lisardggY I was aiming for the latter.

lisardggY

@Aaron Better, for a long term game.

Aaron

The main storyline will follow a dynamic storyline but the somewhat repetitive side quests are always available.

So if the PCs want to prepare for something they might decide to do a few side quests.

Zachiel

So, 5e's way of discouraging anything that's not what the DM wants from his game is "you don't get inspiration this time". No, let's take aside the "you will do as I please" issue... isn't that the exact way you create munchkins? "I must concoct such a build that makes sure I can beat the monsters even if the DM gives me no inspiration"

Aaron

I could also make seasonal quests or something when I don't have time to prep the main storyline XD

wax eagle

@Zachiel inspiration is small potatoes

it's just a little extra to encourage things.

lisardggY

20:15

@Zachiel When the underlying dynamic is "how to build a character to maximize bonuses", then inspiration will be treated as such.

My friends who've started playing 5e all reported that inspiration is hardly used, but when it is, it's regarded as "ooh, a nice bonus".

Aaron

@lisardggY ooooh. What about making the side quests do little things? Like a delivery quest supplying an NPC army that will assist them in a fight later?

wax eagle

@lisardggY exactly

Aaron

Not assist them because they helped them but the army is better equipped because the PCs delivered the equipment.

wax eagle

I'll be using it more in my upcoming game, but that will be because I'm looking for ways to hand it out. If you're gameplanning around getting inspiration...you're going to be disappointed though

lisardggY

@Aaron That's cool. Using the basic quest templates like Delivery Quest, Escort Quest, and the ever popular Collection Quests as the templates for those side quests, but make the quests themselves interesting.

wax eagle

20:17

(and hell, if you're gameplanning around gaining inspiration, you just became teh DM's best friend)

Aaron

So far the ideas I have down are
Limit spell points but refresh more often?
Daily spin for small upgrades
Side quests that don’t affect main quest? Or affect it in small ways like granting supplies to an army

Also the money thing

Zachiel

Thanks for the insight, guys.

lisardggY

@waxeagle "So the system rewards me for making interesting characters and playing them for the benefit of the story and the game? I'm gonna game the system, and make the most interesting character and play it to the utmost benefit of the story and the game. Ha! Take that!"

wax eagle

@lisardggY exactly

lisardggY

@Aaron The money thing has potential. Have shopkeepers in town that refuse to do business with the characters unless they have Special Money.

Drop hints about how terrifically great the gear is in the Special Money Stores.

Aaron

20:20

Going through our convo again here is the expanded list

Limit spell points but refresh more often?
Daily spin for small upgrades
Side quests that don’t affect main quest? Or affect it in small ways like granting supplies to an army
Secondary money?
NPC repetitive or real people?
Limited lives or penalty for dying?
Escalation Die

@lisardggY Adding this idea to Secondary money idea

lisardggY

Have the gear inside a bunch of identical looking chests arrayed behind an impassable countertop. Or is that just my hours of early Final Fantasy speaking?

Aaron

@lisardggY It's a good idea And a bit of the FF speaking lol

Oh here is a good explination for the money

The gold is currency players use but the secondary is something only NPCs use.

So most shop keepers would be players except like 1 shop per town that sells items for NPC money.

lisardggY

@Aaron And only meaningful ("named") NPCs carry it?

2

Q: It is possible to make Vampires, Night-Elves and Warforged to play along?

I got a... difficult situation on my hands. I currently have three groups - a classic Vampire: The Masquerade game, a Pathfinder game, using a Eberron-like setting, and a Warcraft 2nd Ed. /D&D 3.5 game. All of those players know each other and, and all of us are good friends. We are ten people...

dnd-3.5e pathfinder gm-techniques vampire-the-masquerade warcraft-rpg

I can totally see this crossover happening.

Aaron

@lisardggY Right. Something like that. Only quest givers and powerful NPCs carry it.

lisardggY

I mean, I think it's maybe a bit too vague and opinion-based for the site, but it would still make for a fantastic session.

Miniman

22:16

Damn that munchkin question.

wax eagle

22:26

@Miniman yeah...I'm kind of like...go read 5e see if you're still worried about any of this

Smurfton

Well, it has certainly been well answered. Why not let it drop now?

Miniman

Actually, what really bothers me is that I hit rep cap. It always seems like such a waste :P

Smurfton

22:53

Obviously, I've never hit the rep cap, but surely you can be pleased that you are one of a mere... nvm, 147 is quite a few people for the size of this site.

Miniman

@Smurfton I'm glad that my answer did so well. What annoys me is the 60 rep that has disappeared into the rep cap abyss :P

BESW

Butwhatshisface Cantbekhan is slated to play Doctor Strange.

doppelgreener

23:08

They're making a movie about Doctor Strange?

BESW

Superhero movies are back.

Smurfton

Haven't they been back for a few years now?

BESW

Kinda. Guardians of the Galaxy marks a major turning point, though.

Smurfton

in that the general populace probably hadn't heard of them?

BESW

That's part of it. They took a generally unknown property and made a film stuffed with comic references set in a world totally unfamiliar to anyone who hadn't read that property, and had a talking racoon and a walking tree as major protagonists.

It was brightly coloured and ridiculous, but wasn't a comedy or a parody and it didn't feel the need to apologise for itself, and it was wildly successful.

Miniman

23:16

@BESW I think Marvel finally realised that where they excel is making movies that are fun, and focussed on that.

BESW

@Miniman Meanwhile, DC is still dishing washed-out colours and miserable heroes in "realistic" worlds where the fantastic and remarkable is kept to a minimum.

Miniman

23:28

@BESW I'd call you on your prejudices if mine weren't the same.

BESW

I really like several DC characters, but it's reached the point where I'm not sure I want to see them get TV or film treatments any time soon.

doppelgreener

@BESW also there's only so many stories you can tell where the personality, hopes, dreams, and feelings of the person behind the mask isn't important, just how much they are punching people

BESW

Mmm. DC characters don't have to be that way. Characters like Alec Holland and Jaime Reyes prove that.

doppelgreener

@Miniman it only needs spam flags, downvotes do nothing

Miniman

@doppelgreener Also, it just hit the mark

doppelgreener

23:35

rad

BESW

Sufficient spam flags will nuke it. If it's got a cumulative score of just -1, there's also a manual delete option for high-rep users.

doppelgreener

@BESW Yeah, no doubt - I haven't heard of Jaime Reyes, but what you've told me about Swamp Thing tells me they're definitely interested in exploring the man himself.

Though recalling the DC stories I've read, it seems they're mostly just interested in dealing with the superhero side of their individuals, and aren't really interested in the real human aspects of the superhero in question. Superheroes' real-life bits are thrown in as accessories to the story like the real-life issues of characters in House or CSI.

BESW

Jaime is one of my favourite DC characters, not least because he's defined more by his mortal identity than by his alter ego and powers.

At least, he was before the New 52 reboot.

doppelgreener

contrast to Marvel, where it's totally about exploring the real human individuals involved in their stories, and throwing them into combat is for more of the same, and for fun and drama.

BESW

Jaime is a Mexican-American teenager who accidentally gets alien weapons tech fused with his body. As soon as he can, he tells his parents.

trogdor

23:48

lol

to be fair Marvel has had issues sometimes making too much of a big deal out of just ONE specific "human" aspect of some of their characters

instead of exploring their humanity, they sometimes only look at one spot in that humanity

not all the time to be fair, but they do have this issue sometimes

BESW

Jaime's recurring problems include his best friend's aunt being a gang lord, and his superhero identity being expected to take sides in immigration politics.

Also his alien tech keeps wanting to use lethal force in every scenario.

trogdor

And I suppose his superhero identity doesn't exactly broadcast what his ethnicity is?

At the very least,.. he isn't about to show people what he looks like under the suit, cause that is a superhero no no

BESW

Yeah.

trogdor

At any rate, I can see several reasons for that to be awkward

BESW

For most of the series, his best friend doesn't know her aunt is a crime boss, but helps Jaime with his superheroing. It gets awkward when they have to fight her aunt's gang without her discovering who's in charge of the people they're fighting.

trogdor

23:58

I can't imagine it getting BETTER when they figure it out

Lord_Gareth

rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/50059/… <-Can a neutral party check this question and tell me if they find it as provocative as I do?

I see the word 'munchkin' and the kill engine engages at that point so I'm not precisely unbiased

Transcript for