...I'm going to be sketching kabbalah during my meeting tomorrow.

Okay, I need to go to sleep before I get too many tabs open on the Tree of Death.

ttfn

@waxeagle spam mail FOILED AGAIN!

Groupon :(

monetate webinar for me

kickstarter update...

(that I've already read on KS)

I'm thinking of changing the title to "What happens when dark arts exceed the boundary of reality?" or some such.

@waxeagle otterbox junkmail

So we are to the point in video games and displays where making it more detailed would be pointless as the human eye cannot see in more detail. What is the next step? More FPS? What is the next (We have the best Enter new brag here)

@Aaron VG 2.0

Whats that?

Ever heard of Web 2.0?

Err. I know the term

Its a horrible media term

web 2.0 Is pretty meaningless as far as I am aware.

Wikipedia says: Web 2.0 describes World Wide Web sites that use technology beyond the static pages of earlier Web sites.

If I understand they just mean we went from hard coded data on screen to dynamic data that can change. Like the very chat we are using

@NiteCyper pretty much yes.

@NiteCyper your latest looks like a better question for chat. Some more detail on what you're trying to learn might be helpful

@waxeagle I'm becoming discouraged from working on detail in my questions since MrLemon amends them anyway.

@NiteCyper So how would they make Video Games 2.0?

The answer is that doing 120% damage to someone who believes the fireball is not real is hilarious.

@Aaron When I think of VG 2.0, I think of StarCraft (2).

@NiteCyper editing is part of the natural process, but that one has a close vote for me right now

@NiteCyper How is it different? It's a pvp or pve strategy game.

@Aaron I guess you don't know about Use Map Settings (or at least that's what it was called in SC1).

A game feature?

I have never played the starcraft games

Star Craft 2 was Star Craft 1 dumbed down and made more shiney

I was disappointed :(

@Aaron Yeah, sort of. It was a game mode, one could say. StarCraft came with StarEdit, a program for making custom maps. It has a system that essentially allows you to program maps, events in maps.

Nite is asking so many questions. And good questions at that.

@NiteCyper So map making is VG 2.0?

@Aaron It's an example of it, I'd say.

Hmm.

The original DotA originated from Aion of Strife (AoS), a custom StarCraft map. At least, according to what I've read.

The original DotA itself began in WarCraft III or something, itself another custom map.

is there an SE where my question would be on topic?

@Aaron Arqade?

Arqade

but that's way to speculative for anywhere on the stack i think

it's a forum topic

Darn

you might be able to get a sense of where things are going from Game Development though

Even if I asked answers to be backed by trends and articles?

not sure, you could ask on gamedev meta

or gaming meta

or their chat

Could check Reddit.

So gamedev or arqade?

I'll check both see which is better

yep

I played the original DotA as a WarCraft III map, it was pretty fun. Got a lot of people playing it. In a way I'm surprised it took as long as it did for a gaming company to get the idea of doing LoL/DotA2/etc

I played lots of Sunken Defense. Co-op (tower) defense games were common custom maps. I'm not familiar with any games really like it today. So many popular games that I don't see today.

I played the competitive tower defence ones, where you sent creeps to attack the next persons towers

@NiteCyper SUNKEN DEFENSE!!

You mean Tower Wars

@TimB Closest thing I can think of is Tug of War.

O.o

o.O

[Points repeatedly at NiteCyper] @BESW BIRD HE ART

[Unreasonably happy about this]

Fudge dice script has been updated and supports other rooms now \o/

@doppelgreener I find myself with an interesting line of thought.

How well do you think FATE would handle being used as the system for a god game; that is, a game where players take on the role of deities cooperating and competing to create a world and then shape the growth of its civilizations?

@JoshuaAslanSmith fake twitter follower email

(do you guys get fake followers on a regular basis? I've got one account (variations on beauty tips) that follows me 1/week or more)

@Lord_Gareth super competent... super proactive... probably dramatic... this is an idea worth exploring at a time when it is not 1:40am whilst i am awfully sleepy

i think it could work well

Make a note for me to poke you and @BESW about it sometime

ok :)

for now i sleep. night!

@NiteCyper Starcraft II? Game barely innovated at all

@JoshuaAslanSmith But I thought it has a much more customizable map editor or whatever it's called now: Tetris, third-person shooting, etc.

Moding has been a staple of PC games for decades

@JoshuaAslanSmith What about multiplayer communities? And when was it ever more than just a novelty and something worth buying the game for? Minecraft? I never learned how to play vanilla StarCraft...

If youre talking about a paradigm shift in games its difficult because the back and forth between PCs and Consoles for a long time drove development and overlapped and was a back and forth on different issues

@NiteCyper I cant see how you would define minecraft as a multiplayer community, as a modding community yes

See Half-Life (the original

some of the biggest names in PC games started out as free downloadable mods made by a bunch of dudes talking to each other on forums

multiplayer community? Halflife...even further back Unreal/Quake

heck there were thriving C&C multiplayer communities when I was kid

yep

Web 2.0 was a paradigm shift (or what it was talking about in media hype was supposed to be)

(and SC1 for that matter)

@JoshuaAslanSmith What's a paradigm shift?

The issue is you might have FPS be revolutionized by a game but that only affects one genre

A paradigm shift is an event that completely changes your view on what happened before it and what is possible after it, the paradigm, or framework, through which you view a thing has forever changed

it is incredibly subjective and a mostly worthless term

at best its historicism

at worst its a clickbait to hype certain companies over others.

Would your response to Aaron would be that his perception-of-us-reaching-a-limit is subjective?

@waxeagle INVITE RECEIVED!

Web Beta invite which I guess when the android beta goes out I can log into as well given their posts

I think that video games could become more customizable. Blizzard RTSes seems to be the shining example, and I never saw their customizability as the big selling point that they deserve. Many people lamented the discontinuation of Ultra Rapid-Fire (URF) game mode from LoL, but players just had to lump it. In the future, I feel that such tragedy may no longer be possible. People won't have to lump it; players will easily be able to make their own game and play it with others.

Customization already exists for the majority of PC games

We can make our own games, sure, but people play LoL because that's what everyone else is playing. If making and accessing a game was easier, we might see the definition of VG 2.0.

one of my favorite PC games of all time, still is a FPS mod for half life called Hostile Intent which had Tom Clancy rainbow six levels of f tactical realism

I think you are caught up in trying to define VG2.0

So weird seeing @waxeagle as hatface and not redthing.

if we were versioning videogames as an artform over big changes were probably on 7 or 8

Especially when the twitter, just a way up, is still redthing.

Gotta go all the way back to early games created on corporate and research computer shares

in the 60s

I don't care what version number it is, I'm just giving it a name that derives from another term.

Right but 1 - 2.0 implies major changes and that no such major changes have come before

Are you sure we can't say the same for Web?

I guess I'll just refer to it as customizability then.

right and I guess I would say its always existed in some form and grown and in certain niches its all that its about

Again this was sort of a false revolution many pushed by major media outlets to sell newspapers etc.

the irony of buying a Time magazine issue about Web 2.0

which is fine

but I think you are trying to overlay your personal experiences onto the medium which is problematic in general but specifically in this case because of your lack of knowledge of the history of the medium

By me saying VG 2.0?

yep

A statement like Twitch revolutionized gaming for me is completely fine, you are the sole authoritative source on your own views on gaming

Like I said, I only called it that because of Web 2.0. I don't care whether that's the correct number. I'm using it to refer to the uprising of user-created content.

Which is how I see the meaning of Web 2.0.

I don't see it as equivalent to something like the numbering of a generation of video-gaming consoles.

/disengage

@NiteCyper nothing to do with consoles

anyway Im going to stop talking about this, its just an argument for arguments sake right now

@JoshuaAslanSmith :(

@waxeagle so far not as good as 4e there is no character building information throughout the process

like when you choose race and class the only gameplay info it gives you is the class hit die

im at ability points and its not telling me which ones matter

yikes

but the order still race class then ability scores

with rolling as the default option (the array is what the rolled number are set at when you reach here and you can just assign them or hit the pointbuy tab )

gotcha

hmm The did say it was an alpha

hmmm thought this was a bug but in the PHB the point buy chart only goes up to 15

so it naturally only goes up to 15 in the app

it's a hard cap

can't buy more than 15 w/ point buy

yes and Im fathoming as to why not?

should've gone up to 18

I think they want to make rolling more appealing/give it an advantage

@waxeagle here is the rub, the pointbuy button for +changes from 2 to 3 when you after you spend two to hit 15,

point buy prices seem to synch with modifier granted for that stat

nvm

wait yes

so +1 each raise till 13

+2 for 14 and 15

+3 for 16 and 17 and +4 for 18

how many points does a starting 18 leave?

with the standard 27 point buy

that sucks down 17 points leaving you with 10 for the rest (12 if you take an 8...)

yeah

I dont want an 18 really, but just saying

I think 16 is totally reasonable given the +2 stat bumps out there

I don't think it would be crazy to allow it. The only thing it really affects is that you basically get a free feat. Or you could pick a non-optimal race for your class

im fine with PCs being specialists

so yeah this thing 100 percent alpha state in my opinion

fair number of bugs

and after character reaction I could simply stare at stats page for that character or make another, just core descriptors and stats and lvl and xp

"I'm unaware of a spell that does that. please don't let that stop you" I love 4e's treatment of this kind of stuff.

@waxeagle That is a wonderful line for some reason.

@Aaron It's a part of 4e that the grognards missed when they called it "a card game" or "wow with dice" or whatever other pejorative they willed.

Is it okay for me to post an answer to my own question from a while back? After playing a few sessions and going back to it my experiences don't quite match the given answers.

absolutely

highly encouraged even

Good to know. Thanks :)

Though if you use ideas/quotes/text from the other answers, be sure to credit and link them

Evening fellas (and pleasant weekend for those who get to enjoy it!)

Reading Dungeon World pdf. Gotta try this.

@kviiri you'll want to have a look at this: apocalypse-world.com/forums/index.php?topic=4996.0 too

@Phil Thanks Phil - but so far, I'm having no trouble (I'm an Apocalypse World veteran!) :P

I'd read it anyways, there's some good stuff in the guide even for people who know the system

Oh, it's beyond a newbie guide :o

Well, thanks. I'll download it.

The playbook for DW seems a bit less well organized than that of AW.

not as familiar with AW, so I don't really have anything to compare

Heh, a friend at the University just walked past me and said something along the lines of "oh, a web chat? That's so nineties."

Hah, this looks like solid gold. Why oh why haven't I played DW yet?

:)

On the other hand, this seems slightly more bookkeepy than AW.

Probably not to the point of being a nuisance though.

yeah, its a complaint I've heard before

That's mostly true in comparison with AW, I guess.

Hey is imgur.com not loading for anyone else?

isup.me/imgur.com

not for me or isup either.

I didn't think Isup would work cause I wasn't getting an error just a white screen. Guess I know better now

4d

Sweet, any-room Fudge dice.

However...

@doppelgreener: Would it be possible to have the script only place the [fudge dice] toggle in RPG.SE rooms? Since rooms associated with other Stacks don't have the dice function, it's not useful there.

@Lord_Gareth We did once briefly speculate about a Lovecraftian game from the PoV of Things trying to influence humanity.

Hehe.

NO YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS WAS MY FIRST RPG CHARACTER.

Except he didn't save the books, so he had to join an adventuring party so he could travel to collect new ones. And it wasn't literally the Library of Alexandria because it was a generic D&D setting, but I named him Alexander.

leaving GM prep to the last minute is always such a sensible idea -_-

And I named his patron goddess Hypatia.

I always plan to plan, but...

Mostly, for a single session of AW, I have a single idea that I improvise on.

cant really get away with quite that little prep for Savage Worlds

With Apocalypse World, I can!

With Roll For Shoes, you have to!

guess I'm using the wrong system then :p

I've been studying Dungeon World this evening. This looks very appealing but at the same time it feels ominously like "AW, except with more bloat"

@kviiri That sounds like a perfect description of it based on what I've learnt through this chat.

"Appealing AW hack, but with more stuff attached."

Yeah, it feels like it might just be a bit too much for my taste. I've grown very fond of AW's simplicity and the manageable amount of moves.

Can you even imagine this - there's TWO PAGES of spells for both wizards and clerics! Outrageous!

I suspect an unconscious belief on the part of the designers that achieving a D&D-like experience required needlessly complicated rules.

@BESW this

@BESW I don't know which part of DnD this is supposed to emulate: complex rules or long lists of stuff. But whichever it is, one thing is clear: it still looks far better than DnD.

@kviiri Long lists of complex rules, obviously.

Well, each individual move seems quite easy. Just the typical *World 2d6 roll - 10+ is hard hit, 7-9 is soft hit, 2-6 is trouble. The entire description of the move is on a single page, so I don't have to refer to multiple rules to resolve a single action.

However, there are far more moves than in AW - both basic ones and role-specific ones. And with growing numbers, there's unfortunately a good chance that each individual move gets less interesting.

Many moves knit mechanics and narration (not unlike AW)

I kinda liked the inventory and money erasure in AW, so it's going to require some adjustment to get used to them again in DW

But all in all DW deserves a try.

Gosh, but all these modern occult Crowley/Moore ripoffs make it hard to find enumerated information about Judaic interpretations of the sephirot.

I'm trying to look for clear discussions of the Kelipot, to draw on for adversity in the encounter, and I'm just finding demon princes rather than vices.