TRPG General Chat

Metool

15:03

Ah, cool.

Lord_Gareth

But it's also legit

There's also one in Complete Arcane that's Monk/arcane caster, I think it's Enlightened Fist or something

MadMAxJr

Is drunken master a class or a dwarven excuse? I can't tell.

The Oracle

0

Q: wiki topic about external links to useful resources?

I have been wondering for a moment, because in a lot of answers there are links to very interesting external resources, for example when speaking of d&d 3.5 Sites with a lot of online material (those are easily found via a quick research anyway) dndtools dandwiki d20srd Dnd crossed Indexes S...

discussion

Lord_Gareth

@MadMAxJr Prestige class, Complete Warrior. Is honestly a pile of features that are bad jokes, like being able to use improvised weapons without penalty for barroom brawls

The thing's got more poor humor than material components for spells

MadMAxJr

Is this one of those ones that was written for 3.0?

Lord_Gareth

15:08

Nope. 3.5

But very early in 3.5's run, when they were still terrified of ideas like casters wearing armor and full base attack bonus

MadMAxJr

Can't allow that. Next you'll want rogues with magical ability. Nonsense!

Lord_Gareth

Man I think I'm going to use Veigar's rap as my theme song for wizard arena fights from now on. It's Tough to be a God is nice and all, but, I mean - "My decree from the stars/ My will be done /Is there anyone worthy?/I say not even one /Be you born of dragons or a warrior of light/All will bow before this emperor's might."

Players, meet wizard

Wizard, meet players

Metool

@Lord_Gareth You say that like you're going to have more wizard arena fights.

MadMAxJr

So you're saying rap-battle wizards is going to be a thing?

It's just that sick burns result in actual burn damage.

Lord_Gareth

@Metool My players are still idiots, so I have a reasonable expectation

@MadMAxJr They're already a thing, used Jace Hall's Street Fighter as the theme for a more traditional 'zard build that used a staff.

Metool

15:14

@Lord_Gareth "Whenever the bushi uses the Aid Another action, he adds +2 to the bonus that he grants his allies for every 5 points by which he exceeds the aid another check DC."

Yesssss unreasonable Aid Another checks!

Lord_Gareth

:p

Metool

It's already +Cha as a move action for Warlords, which is amazing on its own...

I absolutely adore how much love Aid Another is getting.

Lord_Gareth

Man Azir hasn't even been out a week and Falconshield already did a song for him. And it's actually fairly cool.

Metool

@BESW Don't you love how much support Aid Another is getting?

Joshua Aslan Smith

15:51

I dont get this site sometimes

Lord_Gareth

?

Joshua Aslan Smith

I get picked on for defending a 5e balance question

go to meta

meta seems to support that balance questions need fine requirements

see a 3.5 balance question

I vtc and state that I it should have finer requirements

link to meta

then I get told that I am doing the site a disservice

MadMAxJr

Welcome to stackexchange, where you are always wrong.

Joshua Aslan Smith

Now ususally I am in the boat with Kryan and against mxy, but both besw and mxy made some compelling arguments on the meta

but basically explain to my why the community thinks x is unbalanced was deemed lacking especially compared is Y in line with Z for other classes mathematically?

Grubermensch

Which metata?

wax eagle

15:55

it's worth noting one difference here. And it's the one that had me pulling my close vote. 3.5's char-op space is well defined. vs 5e's which isn't yet. But I do agree that this is a conversation that needs to continue

Joshua Aslan Smith

5

Q: What are the standards for balance questions?

Recently Mxyzplk closed Are 5e Rangers Actually Underpowered? on the grounds that it was primarily opinion-based. If this is true, and BESW made a fairly convincing argument to me in Chat in support of its closing, then why are questions like The half-elf: is it balanced? & Sword-and-board balanc...

discussion tags

Lord_Gareth

@waxeagle This was mostly my stance on the matter, aye. 3.5 is a solved puzzle.

Metool

Should be, after how many years?

wax eagle

so when someone is asking "why is X considered weaker than Y" it's drawing on a history of char-op space.

(implicitly in this case, but sometimes explicitly)

Joshua Aslan Smith

hmmm I feel thats too murky

Grubermensch

16:01

[grumble grumble] Why you guys always start fun discussions right when I have to leave for work [grumble grumble]

wax eagle

cuz it's almost lunch time

(or is)

Joshua Aslan Smith

dont move to the left coast?

Grubermensch

[sigh]

MadMAxJr

When fantasy races play cubicles and careers do they discuss what the best build for the officeplace is? I mean IT builds spec'd for networking do seem a little OP, but then there's all that stuff the Manager control tree gives too.

Joshua Aslan Smith

IT build is not OP

IT is a trap

Lord_Gareth

16:03

There's some seriously hidden moneymaking power in the Construction feat tree

Joshua Aslan Smith

traditional healbot trap, everybody wants you to spend all your actions fixing their access

MadMAxJr

Not even the class feature that makes them immune to the internet blocklist?

Joshua Aslan Smith

much like VoP its a low level fix that doesnt pan out in the ned

MadMAxJr

I find it odd though that hide in plan sight works in cubicles and careers exactly as it does in D&D.

Joshua Aslan Smith

your advancement never matches up

Grubermensch

16:05

The real trick is to take both the Startup and Megacorporation backgrounds as a Software Dev

Metool

@Lord_Gareth Bosspoke.

Joshua Aslan Smith

That random effects table has too much swing

Lord_Gareth

@Metool Mrr?

MadMAxJr

Wait, you can pick startup and megacorp? There's no conflict?

Joshua Aslan Smith

sure you might end up with d20 d20s of millions of dollars but you might also end up destitute

Grubermensch

16:06

@MadMAxJr Welcome to my office. It's fantastic.

Joshua Aslan Smith

l@MadMAxJr just a annual PR fee

Metool

@Lord_Gareth If your boss is wondering why I'm editing my posts so much, it's because ideas come to me way too slowly.

But I'm done with that one.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@Grubermensch where do you work

Grubermensch

Cisco Meraki

Joshua Aslan Smith

oh right, you mentioned you were a company bought out by cisco and then integrated

MadMAxJr

16:07

Okay so I just took the feat that gives me 50% concealment against executives at all times. I think that will help.

Grubermensch

But not really integrated, hence the awesome.

Joshua Aslan Smith

so youre saying your team/department gets to function like its own seperate dev studio

Grubermensch

Our whole 500 person business unit. We have our own sales, support, etc.

MadMAxJr

How do you convince another player to also take the teamwork feat that lets you divert blame equally amongst the team instead of as an individual?

Joshua Aslan Smith

thats a mid level manager feat

/team lead

Grubermensch

16:09

And on that note, time to go poke computers all day.

And then, gamer meetup

MadMAxJr

What's the quickest way to qualify for the CEO prestige class?

Lord_Gareth

@MadMAxJr The Inheritance background

MadMAxJr

Hmm, so you'd say that over taking the Director class?

Lord_Gareth

Director can be hard to qualify for, given the combination of Merit and Nepotism checks needed

MadMAxJr

Yeah but Director gets so many good ways to empower Argument of Opportunity when it pops up.

Nobody in the party wants to bite the Salesman bullet.

Lord_Gareth

16:22

Nobody ever plays the Janitor either

MadMAxJr

16:35

Janitor gets Building Access for free, but it seems like that's his whole thing.

Phil

17:02

0

Q: Where can I find Noob DM resources?

I found a bunch of my 2nd ed D&D books recently and managed to talk someone into playing a 1 DM 1 PC champain . They choose to be a ranger, but then surprised me by purchasing a dog from the equipment table. At first I was worried that I should just nix the dog (esp since 2nd ed rangers aren't re...

new-players new-gm adnd-2e

MY EYES!! THEY BURN!!!

wax eagle

MM disclaimer from Enworld:

> Disclaimer: Any similarities between monsters depicted in this book and monsters that actually exist are purely coincidental. That goes double for mind flayers, which absolutely, utterly, and completely do not exist, nor do they secretly run the D&D team. Do we really need a disclaimer to tell you that? You shouldn't use your brain to consider such irrational thoughts. They only make the mind cluttered, confused, and unpleasantly chewy. A good brain is nice, tender, and rarely used. Go ahead, put down this book and watch some reality TV or internet cat videos. They're really funny these d…

Joshua Aslan Smith

haha

@Phil check it now

Phil

17:27

@JoshuaAslanSmith you're far too good at that :)

Joshua Aslan Smith

My undergrad was a design degree and I worked on my highschool newspaper, thus I always know how to break it up and what text should be emphasized

Zachiel

18:45

@Lord_Gareth is it? Everyone seems to be working under different assumptions, People who support supremacy of casters and then call the DM a jerk if he uses dead magic zones... but can't work with "only a subset of manuals"...

Metool

@PatLudwig Greetings!

Pat Ludwig

@Metool Howdy!

Holy moley, people chatting? I'll have to fire this chat thing up more often!

Zachiel

Heya Pat

This chat is quite lively

Joshua Aslan Smith

yeah roughly 8am to 3pm est its got a lot going on

Zachiel

Even if there are things I can't allow to get google-indexed and this is making me angry. Metool knows what I'm talking about.

Pat Ludwig

18:49

Very cool. Just getting back into RPG with D&D 5 these days

wax eagle

fun! a bunch of us are playing or running 5e games

Metool

And a bunch of us are running Pathfinder games, against our better judgment!

(I am one of those people.)

Zachiel

@Metool [hugs Metool and flips into the void]

Metool

[acks]

Phil

<- savage worlds and unknown armies

Joshua Aslan Smith

18:53

Dungeon world

5e

4e

Pat Ludwig

@Metool Tried Pathfinder, but it was just as D&D3.5 as I feared ... and I'm pretty much done with that style of RPG for the forseeable future

Joshua Aslan Smith

Fate

@PatLudwig dude its like they took 3.5 and turned it up to 11

in its 3.5ness

Metool

I would like to call the back half of 3.5e 3.6e.

Yes...

Pat Ludwig

@JoshuaAslanSmith Yeah ... I can't help but make stupid broken characters. I'm that guy.... better for me to DM

Metool

@PatLudwig Note I said "against [my] better judgment".

Pat Ludwig

18:56

@Metool Lol, the DM who ran it used the tactic of asking me every week if I'd play if he started Pathfinder. Eventually I felt I had to acquiesce. Once 17 No's are given, its hard to go one more :-S

Metool

Yup...

Joshua Aslan Smith

@PatLudwig nothign wrong with optimization

Zachiel

@PatLudwig I can't help but try to make stupid broken character and not managing it because of self imposed restrictions, resulting in endless frustration.

Pat Ludwig

@JoshuaAslanSmith Unless the whole table is into it, me having a character with twice the capability of anyone else leads to issues ...

Zachiel

I need to find a DM that lets me be Pun-Pun

Joshua Aslan Smith

19:01

right, thats a game design issue for 3.5/path 4e doesnt have that issue, in fact it expects optimization for average success levels

Pat Ludwig

@Zachiel I've tried self-limiting, and optimizing basically useless stuff (example - monster knowledge) .... nothing much helps for long

I did a mapless 5e combat last week. The group was very cool with it, lots of fun. Some folks used the freedom to try different things, exactly what i was looking for.

Zachiel

@PatLudwig Monster Knowledge? When there's Knowledge Devotion and Archivist out there?

I optimized Escape Artist

Joshua Aslan Smith

@PatLudwig you should also check out DW

I love dungeon world, and am poaching lots of things from it into D&D 5e

Zachiel

to the point of getting both a +75 -and- nonmagical freedom of movement

Pat Ludwig

@Zachiel It was a couple years ago, so I forget the details, but the knowledge check was passed at hard for anything I was likely to encounter. Annoyed the DM to no end, so I had to drop it.

Zachiel

19:05

as a result, my character fears any combat

Pat Ludwig

@Zachiel Lol, awesome

@JoshuaAslanSmith I've read some good things about it, but haven't dove in yet. Perhaps I can make some time

Joshua Aslan Smith

def

Metool

@Zachiel You'll have to teach me how.

Joshua Aslan Smith

the only part that is fiddly still to me is their is no initiative actions/combat should flow narratively and transfer between characters when a vignette is down

but in practice I use a everybody goes then the monster goes repeat cycle

I also which it had grid rules, cause me and my players love that grid

Metool

@JoshuaAslanSmith Wait, what?

Joshua Aslan Smith

19:14

@Metool *wish

Metool

No, I get that.

But... grid rules? Like with 3.5 movement?

Joshua Aslan Smith

@metool

never

4e all the way

Metool

oh

... can you not just do that?

Joshua Aslan Smith

no silly 1 and 1/2 on diagonals

I feel like weapon range is easy

its figuring out movement speed

Metool

oh?

wax eagle

19:17

@JoshuaAslanSmith movement speed is explicitly 4e esque in 5e.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@waxeagle no I meant for dungeonworld

wax eagle

oh yeah nm, no clue about DW

Joshua Aslan Smith

so DW weapon ranges are

so if you allow people to share squares than hand is in the same square, close is 1 square, reach is 2, near is maybe 5, far is 20 maybe

wax eagle

oh that's fairly easy to handle. You can move to someone who is near or in reach. it takes a full round to move to someone who is far (or two rounds). that's basically what I track when I do TotM in 5e

though it makes movement speed mean less

you might need to be more granular to pick up that distinction

Joshua Aslan Smith

hmmm

I could literally tie it to class weapon die

get up to that die's worth of movement squares

so fighters and paladins as physical juggernauts can run around, which from balance makes sense cause they need to get in range

rogues, rangers, etc. have d8

wizards have d4

silly wizards

Zachiel

19:26

@Metool 18 levels in Scout. Possibly some variant of it, i don't know, the planescape game uses planar variants of everything and doesn't allow you to take the regular versions. Plus greater slippery armor, kuo-toa's skin spell, silthilar graft: flexible spine, Epic Skill Focus, Skill Focus and Agile feats

Joshua Aslan Smith

I just realized Person of Interest is back with season 4 tonight

losing my mind

MadMAxJr

Agents of Shield is back tonight~

Lord_Gareth

[Posts thoughts on a Hunter setting he sorta started and then never finished]

MadMAxJr

As in White Wolf Hunter?

Joshua Aslan Smith

oh white wolf

Lord_Gareth

19:37

Hunter: the Vigil, yes

MadMAxJr

That's the one where mortals make a futile attempt to fight off /every/ other product line er.... creature in WW's world of darkness, right?

wax eagle

@MadMAxJr woot.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@MadMAxJr I dont hink Hunter was ever meant to directly compete with the other books, but just be a different way to play in the same setting

MadMAxJr

Ah The Witcher.. He always made me think of DM-PCs. He's a mutant with a variety of powers, is excellent in combat, good with magic, and gets all the ladies, including fantasy creature women.

Joshua Aslan Smith

hah

but he isnt

So the mutant reflexes training, better weapons all get balanced out by terrible social problems

and magic wise hes a joke vs an sorcerer

Lord_Gareth

19:41

@MadMAxJr nWoD classed down the supes and classed up the mortals, so it's the one where mortals appoint themselves judge, jury, and executioner in shadowy conflicts with supernature

MadMAxJr

That and sterility.

Lord_Gareth

And must deal with the moral consequences of doing so

Zachiel

@JoshuaAslanSmith bookwise, maybe. In the game? Spam igni.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@MadMAxJr yeah I mean thats a big part of the setting's price of magic generally

@Zachiel hmm the first game is probably the least comparable to the books, but it also has the least action driven combat as well

and igni is for chumps

MadMAxJr

@Lord_Gareth I've never read much into WW. Are 'Mage' personas part of the hunted?

Joshua Aslan Smith

19:42

real witchers spam aard and get that sweet coup de grace going

geralt gets his ass kicked way too much to be the GMPC though

Lord_Gareth

@MadMAxJr "Maybe". Not every Hunter cell or organization hunts mages. Not all of those that do hunt all mages. Also recall that hunters have trouble drawing a line between a hedge witch and awakened magic

MadMAxJr

Interesting. I knew Werewolf, Vampire, Demon, and Promethean are pretty much all on the 'PURGE' list.

Lord_Gareth

@MadMAxJr Not as accurate as you think it is.

The first answer to, "Do I want to kill this thing?" is almost always, "Well, who do I work for?"

For instance, the Loyalists of Thule rarely hunt werewolves except purely in the sense of gathering information, because they have a large body of evidence suggesting that werewolves are a positive presence.

MadMAxJr

Factions within factions within factions.

Lord_Gareth

Indeed

"Hunters" are not a unified group

Not even close

The Compacts and Conspiracies they form and join define a lot of how they approach the Hunt

MadMAxJr

19:47

I just recall that the artwork for Hunter tried to convince me that crossbows are /awesome/.

Lord_Gareth

Heh

They're actually pretty good for werewolf or vampire hunting, though for different reasons

For vamps you want them for the explosive tips. You can't do that with bullets, but sweet Asmodeus do vamps hate it.

For werewolves, crossbow projectiles move slow enough for you to have silver tips without the ammo falling apart in transit

Silver bullets don't actually work unless you're using hilariously antique weaponry

Joshua Aslan Smith

silver bullet is easy

jacketed hollowpoint

done

Lord_Gareth

Shakes apart

And/or melts

Joshua Aslan Smith

core filling doesnt need to be all silver

MadMAxJr

Pfff. We just need a naval CIWS firing silver shrapnel at them.

Joshua Aslan Smith

19:51

I would do a lead fill with a silver core

when the JHP hits and mushrooms it would pull apart to the silver

MadMAxJr

Surely silver buckshot would still work.

Lord_Gareth

If you're close enough to use buckshot on a werewolf

You are too close

MadMAxJr

As for dealing with Promethean and Demon that would be 'oh wow you bought those books'...

I got to watch those become sun faded with the years.

Lord_Gareth

Prometheans get hunted a lot because of the whole thing with auto-hate

Hunters are already angry, violent people

Auto-hate works really well on them

Demons have...an odd relationship, with Hunters

A lot of groups hate 'em and hunt on sight

But then you get people like the Lucifuge, who keep demons around the way cops keep snitches

MadMAxJr

Demons are manipulative sorts.

The enemy of my enemy is also my enemy but not today.

Joshua Aslan Smith

19:56

@Lord_Gareth even better than a silver bullet, silver fragmentation grenades

MadMAxJr

Still aren't humans pretty much doomed no matter what in WoD?

It's just a matter of whose farming them.

Lord_Gareth

@MadMAxJr Not in nWoD!

You're thinking oWoD

Where the answer to, "My players did something," is always "They fail, betray everything they love, then get killed by the designated setting villains"

MadMAxJr

oWoD actually published the Armageddon book, which I found interesting because I rarely ever see a company /finish/ a storyline.

Lord_Gareth

I'm aware of their meta plot, yes

Which was the worst aspect of oWoD, which is saying something since the rest was horrible too

But the metaplot is the direct reason for the above "my players did something" statement

MadMAxJr

If I recall correctly, didn't it give GMs options on how the world ends? I don't know if any one of them was the actual canon.

Lord_Gareth

20:01

@MadMAxJr None of those options were, "You succeed"

It was all just gradients of pain

MadMAxJr

I remember briefly meeting some of their designers at Gencon '09. Interesting folks.

Lord_Gareth

From "You fail" to "you fail so hard that the universe is now run by sadistic extradimensional tyrants"

Joshua Aslan Smith

.

MadMAxJr

Isn't one of those also "Try to kill the first blood vampire" ?

Lord_Gareth

@MadMAxJr Cain's stats are canonically listed as "You lose"

5

Joshua Aslan Smith

20:02

hahaha

Lord_Gareth

So good luck there

MadMAxJr

You loose. Good day sir. You get... NOTHING.

Joshua Aslan Smith

lets be honest

the 90s were a very different time in RPGs

MadMAxJr

Dear White Wolf. April 1st, 2015, please produce a mockup for Pony: The Friending

And describe canonical additions of magical, colorful ponies to WoD and their interactions with the other creatures.

Lord_Gareth

To give you an idea, MadMax

And keeping in mind that Vamp is the lowest-power oWoD splat

Setting Villain 1: I use my illusions to crash the Moon into the Earth. Setting Villain 2: What moon? Rest of the Planet: Man, these tides sure are convenient. It's odd that they happen without a source of gravity. Science sure is odd, huh?

Maximum Permitted Player Power: I can possess animals sometimes!

Metool

20:07

... Knowledge (red dragons)?

Who... why!

MadMAxJr

I'm sure the villain could be stopped with a healthy snack and a song about working fairly with others.

4

That or have their soul torn from their pastel toned flesh and devoured to fuel unending nightmare machines.

KRyan

21:16

wow.

no BESW

how odd

Lord_Gareth

21:31

It's his sleeptime

trogdor

21:56

timezones are a thing

BESW

22:08

Mmmmbleaguh.

trogdor

lol

Metool

pata pon don chaka

BESW

VTC too broad until system tagged.

Metool

22:47

@BESW He's got to be the one to tag it, huh?

Even though it's right in there?

BESW

Ooh, I see it.

Miniman

23:03

@trogdor Wouldn't it be great if they weren't?

Metool

pata pata pata pon

trogdor

@Miniman I suppose so, maybe

but then the world would be flat, and you could fall off the edge

The Oracle

23:26

0

Q: World of Darkness tags: include the 'the' from the title, or drop it?

There's a discrepancy in our World of Darkness tags. As you can (presently) see here, the vast majority skip any 'the' that is present, whether it's from OWOD — vampire-masquerade, werewolf-apocalypse, mage-ascension — or NWOD — mage-awakening, changeling-lost, hunter-vigil. But these two have i...

discussion tags

doppelgreener

@MadMAxJr Then proceed to actually develop and release it. If necessary, continue to pretend it is just an april fool's joke.

(even in october)

BESW

...now I'm imagining pony Nature/Demeanour traits.

Twilight: Controller/Polymath
Applejack: Controller/Labourer
Pinkie: Controller/Entertainer
Fluttershy: Controller/Enabler
Rarity: Controller/Manipulator
Rainbow Dash: Controller/Competitor
Spike: Doormat/Servile

doppelgreener

@BESW ha! that spike one cracked me up

trogdor

it's not funny

he should be ruling with a fiery fist

well,.. claw

Metool

pata pata pata pon

RedRiderX

23:40

pon pon pata pon

BESW

23:55

Cottleston, Cottleston, Cottleston pie.

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