@JoshuaAslanSmith It also depends ALOT on the system in question and the philosophy used when designing it. Spotting when a fiasco like game is broken would be a very different thing to a GURPS like game for example

correct but until he specifies what he means by broken Ill stand by my point

oh that too

on, the answer to that question ... nothing an easy, univariate theory would describe, it seems

I was just adding another issue that imo makes the question unanswerable in its current form

@phil gotcha

@johnny is this in a professional setting or as a hobby

because professionally yeah you need to clearly outline where it went wrong, but a gut feeling is more than enough

It could mean its not fun, or play is unclear, or the game lacks an identity

the thing is, i encounter quite a lot of these broken RPG systems. various settings, various system philosophies

usually fixing a system like that means overhauling the core systems/features

@Johnny is this a specific issue you've had or an idle pondering?

is it in relation to systems you're actually playing with a group?

@Phil this one is a specific issue, but the system is not in English. Linking it here would do no good

or something you're designing?

or have designed

@Phil nope, this system is not even mine. It is bad, and I'd like to give the designer some feedback on it being bad

Okay, so what are the specific issues you're having with the system that are leading you to the idea that it might be broken?

or is it just a gut feeling

?

let me check the rules

all this detail needs to go into the question you've answered. Even then though, it might not be judged to be answerable within the requirements of the site

you can already see from the answer given so far that there isn't sufficient detail in the question, as the answerer has assumed its a system you're in the process of designing

*I meant asked not answered, obviously ¬¬

Back to my "gut feeling" of the broken system in question: the author of the system chose to tailor the game mechanics according to some ADnD 2e clone, because the author does no know any other system (and yes, it is 2014 now, and roleplaying games have evolved through some 3 generations since ADnD). The system is restrictive, authoritative (yet full of logical holes), encourages closed play of the GM, inflicts hard attribute limits on skills, and puts together a few different mechanics

sounds like you've answered your own question? O_o

well, guess i was looking for some methodology on evaluating bad design, that is

if I did answer my own question, then sincere apologies for making a mess on the front page of your favorite site!

oh well the easiest shorthand would be look your system doesn't exist in a bubble, I can compare it to x y and z and why would I choose it over those options

@johnny no evaluation can be made without defined requirements

and a set scope

once you have those then they become the test against which every aspect of the game must meet

If one of those requirements is total balance (again even the word balance would need to be broken down and defined into sub-requirements) how does each and every rule and feature hone toward this goal

@Joshua Aslan Smith: well, what you just wrote, that seems like a winner answer to the question to me! You're proposing an adaptive method (comparing the tested design with a control group of similar design solutions, pinpointing the relevant criteria on the go), and that's all I could wish for.

@johnny yes, question is closed right now though, and rightly so I think, but glad I could hlep

@johnny playtesting is important and should be part of the iterative process, but you should always test at each stage and try to do a vertical slice initially

never be afraid to scrap a feature or redesign the core system if it needs to be done, theres nothing worse than polishing a turd

Hey guys, quick question, there was this set of "geek mistakes" or something and one of these was that "geeks" don't want to exclude anybody from their groups because they know what it means to be lonely, anybody any idea what that set of mistakes/rules/whatever they were was called?

@DavidMulder the Five Geek Social Fallacies

@Zachiel Thaaanks :D

The RPG panorama is full of fallacies. I think we love the word.

@DavidMulder you're welcome

fallacy fallacy fallacy

@BESW Is that the fallacy about fallacies being fallible?

No, that's the Fallible Fallacy Fallacy.

Well, puzzling can be an option to if it's an actual math puzzle? :P

Isn't D&D math a peculiar off-shoot nearly unrecognisable as mathematics?

@DavidMulder Hmm. I hadn't thought about using that SE...

It's about optimizing Tome shopping for skill point gain instead of for moneysaving

@BESW It all depends so much on the specific problem, but I had a programming problem a while back which thinking back would have been so much of a better fit taking the programming out and posting on puzzling.SE

instead... than. Maybe. For/for baffles me

do math.se solve optimization problems?

I've got a rather devilish puzzle maze idea I want to implement some time, where every room is a logic gate.

Leaving room doors opened/closed represents 1/0 inputs, and the outputs are (un)locking other doors or turning machines on/off.

@Zachiel Don't think they are up for solving it for you no. But if you're stuck at some point they would be willing to give help, just make sure to phrase it mathematically enough. WolframAlpha can be also a great help once u get it in mathematical terminology

Btw, now that I am here on chat either way, question: Do you guys know whether there are groups which prefer doing full time, multiple day game and then finish (like finish finish) rather than prolonged games over the course of months or years? Just from a time and immersion point of view it sounds like a lot more fun to me, but I haven't heard about anybody doing such a thing.

@DavidMulder Yes, I've known a group which did that. But it's a lot harder to carve that much time out of one's life, so it's usually only a thing that happens among students.

Same

@BESW You are evil and I bow before you. I have one group that would love that … and another that wouldn't have a hope of figuring it out.

@BESW To me it sounds a lot more practical from a time point of view as well, like renting a cheap cottage maybe for the weekend and go all out :P

@DavidMulder The intensive thing is fun, but its hard to fit into most peoples' schedules. I did do something like that this summer though. We played a campaign for a few hours every morning and then broke to do other things in the afternoon. thecoreworlds.net/blog/category/rpg/dramasystem/…

@DavidMulder If you can get that kind of uninterrupted time, perhaps. But as the group members get jobs and families, two or three totally unbroken days for a hobby is increasingly difficult to manage.

@DavidMulder We rented a mansion :) (There were 25+ of us and we are playing a variety of different games though)

Difficult for the GM unless they're good at rolling with the punches and improvising when the players do the unexpected too

@BESW There's LARPers who are not students anymore. And it's a one-time event, so it's not like committing to something Life (as in "life happens") could crash into.

@Phil I'd call for regular "I can't believe you just did that" breaks.

that'd be the way to fix it

@Quentin [grin]

As gaming venues go, flickr.com/photos/dorward/14458176449/in/set-72157645665978504 kinda rocks ;)

Yeah, I know I know, I have worked for 2 years full time as well, though now back to being a student :P Still, running a company and studying doesn't leave me a lot of time each week, but fitting in a weekend+friday sounds like something I could have managed both back then and now

@Quentin Or rent an old cottage in the mountains without electricity or running water :P Does add to the immersion with a lot of settings :P

just need to find like minded friends who are into rpging then :o)

@DavidMulder Ouch. I've pondered doing an OU history degree but it keeps coming back to "Where am I going to find the time?"

@Phil Group of people who are into doing "game cottages", but have never done the whole d&d-like RPG'ing, so part of me is considering organizing something crazy like that :P Running the campaign with a bit of a strong hand and stuff, but who knows :P Will be doing that at the earliest next summer :P

@DavidMulder Some groups meet less often, like month or semi-weekly. Other groups--like mine--meet regularly (weekly in my case) but instead of a long-form campaign with takes months to finish and requires regular commitment, whoever can show up on a particular week plays a single-session game that night.

(Using low-prep short-form systems takes a lot of the midweek prep pressure off the GM, too, and it means we can jump right into play each week without spending an hour or more making PCs first.)

I, for instance, run a long-form weekly campaign that takes years to finish, mostly because if we're not at least 5 players out of 6 we just don't meet...

That's one thing I like about D&D 5e: There are very few choices to be made for level 1 character creation. After narrowing down Race / Class / Background, I think that there aren't any choices which are more complex than "2 options out of these 4" unless you have to pick spells.

@Quentin Aye, but compare Cthulhu Dark chargen: Write down your name and your profession. Or Roll for Shoes: Write down your name.

I'm planning to write out the salient points for races, classes (at level 1) and backgrounds on index cards (along with a bunch of preselected spell lists) and hand them out to a table saying "Mix and match and if all the Human cards are taken, pick something else"

Systems that are designed for short-term play often massively reduce the complexity of character generation in ways systems that need to support long-term play can't.

I'm planning this for a group that does 6-session campaigns.

So long as character creation takes less than an hour, I'm happy.

I'm rather curious to see if a long-form Roll For Shoes game falls apart.

I'm also in the process of writing a Spelljammer with Giant Space Flumps scenario that I'm hoping to test out on them. (still 5e)

I'm rather curious to see how it would be to play a Blood Red Sands game. It requires 10 6-hour-long sessions. But I'm too scared about the game being really competitive and favoring people fast on their tongue.

Oh, my.

So when a game is alla bout having who makes the best contributions win, I'm not sure I want to be in that game, even if I love the mechanics.

Yeeah, I've documented my problems with treat training systems here in the past.

@BESW And you've also told us about you manipulating your games with the less charismatic orc ever

(or something on that line)

Also, sorry for the late reply but I had to defend my question from theoreticalness accusations.

I'm curious - are you saying you think Fiasco is a 'best contributions' game, because that's not my experience with it at all

No, I just felt I was marginal, not contributing to the story, and the game could have been the same had I been an item card.

This is not the Fiasco game I "won", by the way

happens sometimes - I just figure that as long as the overall story turns out cool then that's all that matters

yeah, but I have some... spotlight thirst?

ah, fair enough

get that sometimes myself :o)

someone would call me an "attention whore"

but I think it's more suble while gaming

I wish I was good enough to get the attention by my own merits.

@MattGiltaji Hi!

@BESW hi

Anything in particular on your mind we can help you with?

nah, not much activity in my usual rooms, so peeking into other sites to see what's going on

as you can see, not much...

Well, I've got my Doctor Who Fate Accelerated game prep as an ongoing background thing.

I came up with an adventure scenario last night at 1 in the morning, but on reflection I think it's too complex for a one-shot and too referential for my players.

@BESW I would imagine most 1 AM ideas don't stand up too well the next day :D

I know my share of midnight brilliance is not that great in hindsight

At a certain point in the evening my inner critic goes to bed before I do.

Still, I think it's a good idea; just not suited for the audience or time available in this particular case.

@Zachiel [sigh] "Why can't the GM just fix it? People who don't just let the GM fix things are irrational!"

@BESW ICanChan's comment on my last question?

@Zachiel And then Lesnie's.

the latter is worse

@BESW HeyICanChan's remark would be good if I was the DM

JackLesnie's is to the point, but bad form

indeed

As a DM, you never know how much tinkering your players will stand before telling you that your game is no more recognizable as what they expected to play. And I mean even "hey, are you all ok if we do this?" tinkering, otherwise conversation with the players could solve it.

Sometimes, your players just don't like that the DM is willing to experiment with "their" toy.

@BESW WBL is ok but I wasn't talking about WBL, more about the single lines of the WBL chart

Yeah, I was addressing the (apparently now deleted) claim that WBL was an acronym of your own invention.

@BESW I didn't read that into his comment, but I was probably too sleepy to notice.

Pew. Pew pew.

[dies]

ouch you got me

I must have been a secondary target

maybe shrapnel

@Mr.Blaqs Hi!

You'll need at least 20 rep on any one Stack Exchange site before you can type in chat rooms, but you're welcome to hang out until then.

...this Doctor Who adventure planning is rapidly becoming a question of which villain voice I want to do.

lol

obviously the silliest one

I'm not doing a Kandy Man adventure.

XD

but, the back of his candy hand

anyway, I have actually hyped myself up for this Doctor Who Fate thing

Oh, dear, pressure.

lol

yesss, presssure

this is what you get for telling me your plans ahead of time

not all of them obviously, but the fact that you are doing a Doctor Who Fae game

and you did post the character options you have in mind

So, got any notions re: an actual plot?

Setting, villain, theme, challenges?

I have honestly been thinking more of which character I want to play

right now I think K9 is actually at the top of the list

I wouldn't mind Ace or Leela either

@BESW If Doctor Who and the Mystery Gang (suddenly that sounds like a phenomenal crossover) stories both make great Cthulhu Dark stories, perhaps Mystery Gang or Cthulhu stories would make great Doctor Who stories

I would say, it might be best to choose a story none of your players have seen

@trogdor that may be a challenge

but then again, making something up works too

"IA! IA! DAVROS FHTAGN!"

@BESW yes i like the direction this is going in

it's tempting to suggest something with the Cybermen or the Daleks

so, miniplot: those tentacley dalek things are actually Cthulhu-spawn

maybe even both, but I don't think mixing them together works too well

the only logical thing for them to do is fight, and at least if we go by the shows logic, the Daleks would just mow down the Cybermen

Yeeeah, last time that happened we got a verbal catfight.

yeah

Also, sudden thought: Davros was trying to hyper-evolve the Kaled race to find out what they'd eventually turn out as. They emerged as tiny useless tentacley Dalek things, so he built machines to take care of his future kin. Theory: Davros is an absolute moron when it comes to evolution and has no idea how it works; they turned out as useless tentacley things because they evolved in a lab where all needs were met and they didn't need to do anything.

yeah

Davros didn't seem to understand how evolution works

Unfortunately, as awesome as Davros was in his first appearance, he utterly neutered the narrative impact of the Daleks for decades.

All Dalek stories instead became My Life With Master stories with Davros as the master and Daleks as the sullenly rebellious minions.

@BESW haaaaa, clever cybermen

@doppelgreener I don't think Mondasian Cybermen could have made the same claim.

I kinda want to do something with the Meta-crisis Doctor, but that's bringing in some kinda obscure lore for a one-shot.

now, these are people who know what to make a super-futuristic robot look like:

no giant bulky crud added, because when you're a super futuristic robot, nothing needs to be bulky in your design

But Cybermen aren't robots.

(not that i'd recommend this guy for a cyberman, but why do they need that bulky chest thing)