TRPG General Chat

Adeptus

00:04

@Oxinabox I have several Shadowrun novels, from 1e-2e days. I haven't read them for over 15 years. Quality varies, but some are pretty good.

Adeptus

00:15

@JoshuaAslanSmith There's an Otherworld comic I've heard about, that I want to read... Batman: Speeding Bullets. The premise is, what if Kal-El (aka Superman) came to earth in Gotham & was adopted by the childless Wayne family? Basically, Superman as Batman.

Adeptus

00:41

@waxeagle Have you seen heroforge.com

mbriand

02:03

@Adeptus Am I right in feeling that kind of thing suffers having to be painted? It seems really interesting to me, but then I'd have to buy a million paint colors and do very badly something I've never done before...

Like 99% of the people interested in a custom miniature likely don't have the skills or desire to paint it.

Adeptus

@mbriand On the kickstarter, they had an option to have them prepainted. They might offer this once they're fully up & running. Or, some people leave them unpainted. They actually offer a choice of two types of plastic - the cheaper one is actually intended to stay unpainted, because the texture isn't good for painting.

mbriand

Oh that's really interesting then. I'll have to look into it. Oh ok I found the link to their kickstarter.

LessPop_MoreFizz

Paizo's new iconic NPC is an awesome trans-lady dwarf shaman. That's freaking awesome.

BESW

02:45

@LessPop_MoreFizz [wave] Have you been away, or have I just been missing you?

LessPop_MoreFizz

@BESW Bit of both.

BESW

Fair enough.

LessPop_MoreFizz

@BESW I was working out in Hawaii for a month and was barely around as a result of that.

BESW

Oh, cool.

Adeptus

03:01

@LessPop_MoreFizz Looks like the whole RPG industry is taking steps to be more openly accepting. First the paragraph in D&D Basic, now this.

LessPop_MoreFizz

@Adeptus Yeah, though this is just the latest in a long trend for Paizo; they've had trans characters in adventure paths previously; an Iconic is still a Big Freakin' Deal though.

Adeptus

I didn't know that. Other than the 3.5e Adventure Path I'm currently playing in, I haven't played any Pathfinder/Paizo

LessPop_MoreFizz

@Adeptus It's quite the list.

wax eagle

03:38

I heard about them during their KS (I've been keeping a bit of an ear to the mini scene lately, but I'm really new to it)

BESW

Normally a picture on the Internet is better than its context or not worth sharing at all, but The Necromancer Rises seems like a notable exception.

[scribbles campaign idea notes]

Grubermensch

04:19

Why do people keep saying that Hebraic cultures are not Western....

This makes me sad

LessPop_MoreFizz

@Grubermensch Not finding this sentiment anywhere in this question or it's answers, but admittedly, I'm skimming. Care to point it out?

Grubermensch

Angels do NOT originate from Western culture. They are either Hebraic or Zoroastrian (still west of Japan, but...) — Madlozoz Jul 27 at 12:18

-1

A: What living apex lifeforms are there other than dragons?

Jörmungandr Sea serpent from Norse mythology, son of Loki Why? By definition, there could be only one Apex predator in one given environment. Jörmungandr is a marine creature. Problem solved. Classic fantasy based, preferably Western culture originating. That's Norse mythology. Unlike Leviata...

LessPop_MoreFizz

Oy.

Grubermensch

urgh, the Jörmungandr answer

hardly anybody ever means Nordic/Germanic only when they say "Western"

BESW

05:40

Hmm. I should probably get to work on fitting Curse of the Lake Monster into the Cthulhu Dark adventure format.

I'm a little concerned about how to make it more investigation-heavy.

Heheheh.

25

Q: How can I reward Cthulhu characters for going mad?

I like it when, in Cthulhu games, Investigators go mad. With that in mind, I'd like to give some reward for the first Investigator to go mad. For example, perhaps, at the beginning of the next game, the player whose Investigator went mad first in the last game gets first choice of character. I'...

@JonathanHobbs [wave]

doppelgreener

@BESW Hi!

BESW

Also hi @kviiri.

kviiri

05:56

@BESW Hello! o/

BESW

06:07

What's new?

kviiri

Nothing much. Making notes for the introductory one-off AW session.

I've settled with a steampunk caper scenario.

BESW

Ooer.

I'm putting Curse of the Lake Monster into Cthulhu Dark adventure format, meself.

(It's a little slow because I'm also suggesting prayers for a friend who's having some stress.)

kviiri

Stress is nasty.

BESW

06:27

Yes.

BESW

06:46

[shakes self vigorously] BESW, you don't need to research whether that gemstone is found in that part of the world! It's a freaking Cthulhu game.

Magician

@BESW Players called me on saying they saw a bear in Antarctic. Had to turn it into a yeti.

doppelgreener

@BESW yes, BESW, listen to BESW here, he is making a lot of sense

BESW

@Magician Well, that's nothing to worry about then. Yeti are gentle and timid creatures.

doppelgreener

@Magician well, okay, yes, i would probably go "wait a minute" in the same situation... and I am also not a geologist, so...

kviiri

@Magician [is reminded of elementary school English book picture of a polar bear next to a herd of penguins]

Magician

06:50

Geography may not be my strong suit, but when I'm the GM, it's not my problem.

"Oh, that doesn't add up? I wonder why that could possibly be." ::evil grin::

2

kviiri

I don't know why players worry too much about polar bears in the antarctic. They should be more concerned about them being several kilometres underground.

BESW

@kviiri My mother cancelled a homeschool service subscription when they sent a book saying the seasons are caused by the tilt of the Earth's axis... ...*changing the distance of each hemisphere to the Sun.*

kviiri

@BESW Ooh, that's nasty.

I got about ten or so from this list at school: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_misconceptions

BESW

Mm. The same service gave me a math problem like "5 - 7" and expected me to write "0" because they hadn't taught me negative numbers yet.

kviiri

@BESW By coincidence, we just discussed that kind of math on an IRC channel.

I find it funny because I don't recall ever having a hard time understanding negative numbers.

(could be because my dad's a programmer and by mom's a bank assistant)

BESW

06:56

Math where 0 is the lowest boundary is fine, when defined as such. It's useful in many practical ways!

But this was not one of those cases.

kviiri

Yeah.

BESW

Negative numbers as a difficult concept... well, it depends on how they're presented/taught. My math education included various forms of the "number line" model from early days (my mother's got a degree in math education).

kviiri

I love messing up with the numeric system - it's a practical skill in a field where typically 2 147 483 647 + 1 = - 2 147 483 648.

BESW

Heheh.

I'm not specially good at basic arithmetic, for a number (har) of reasons, but the theories and concepts fascinate me.

kviiri

I guess one of the most "vile" misconceptions I was taught was, not because it has greatly impacted me but because I know it's deliberate, is the locally popular one: "Sweden-Finland".

Before the second millenium, Finland was a huge forest dotted with lakes, with several tribes instead of one national identity.

The lands wound up under Swedish control, and Finnish history textbooks (particularly older ones, because the tradition is dying out) refer to Sweden of that era as "Sweden-Finland" as if Finland had been a proper state under some sort of union with Sweden, as opposed to some extra farmland across the Gulf of Bothnia.

BESW

07:03

I know very little about that part of the world, but last year at International Convention I talked with some of the Finland National Spiritual Assembly and learned that there's a very cool administrative experiment being conducted up there by the Bahá'ís:

If I remember correctly (and I could have who's doing what mixed up), the Finland NSA is being asked to administer the whole northern part of that area which crosses several national boundaries, rather than having each NSA administer just its nation's portion of the area. The idea is that the administration can follow cultural/social lines instead of political ones.

(Which is actually somewhat similar to what our NSA is doing out here, but on a much larger scale and modifying precedent in the area.)

I didn't catch all the details, but it had something to do with Finns generally having more in common with the Sámi?

kviiri

Yeah, the Sami people of Lapland retain a lot of their cultural identity in Finland, Sweden and Norway.

BESW

So they're seeing what it'll be like having the Finnish NSA also administer the Sámi-identified parts of the neighbouring countries.

doppelgreener

@Magician Yeah, I'm content with that. That's why I wouldn't mind finding weird rocks in a different country.

If this were Cthulhu Eclipse, and we were finding some kind of weird site, and I found a C# program with LISP code right in the middle of it and it was chugging along fine, I'd be okay with that. Although it would be very unnerving, because it doesn't make sense, and because it's LISP.

(In Cthulhu Dark, if I were at 5 sanity, I would probably stare for a few seconds, then remove the server from the rack and stomp it to pieces.)

(or send a virus to digitally burn the site to pieces)

BESW

@JonathanHobbs [squint] Cthulhu Eclipse, eh?

kviiri

Back to RPGs: I'm actually quite pumped about the Steampunk Caper mini-adventure.

BESW

07:15

Sweet. I look forward to hearing more about it.

kviiri

British Imperialism! Colonialism! Fancy dress code! And the best part of all, I can concentrate on one particular caper and execute it flawlessly.

(at least, so I hope)

Elude the guards by slipping off in the thick peasouper fog of London. Die of respiratory disease after inhaling that stuff.

2

BESW

@CerylWiltink Hi!

doppelgreener

07:40

@BESW Cthulhu Dark meets Eclipse Phase. Suddenly this idea is awesome to me, though I only mentioned it offhand at first.

kviiri

What sort of dress would you expect a steampunk pseudo-Victorian professional security officer to have?

The sort guarding valuables in a bank or in a museum.

Something that smells of authority, but is not intimidating because they need to be real gents towards civvies.

I was thinking of red shirt, black trousers, pistol holster as a part of the uniform.

Magician

@kviiri Speaking of steampunk-ish pseudo-Victorian settings, have you seen Fallen London and/or Sunless Sea?

kviiri

@Magician I've heard of the former, but don't have any real experience with either.

BESW

@kviiri Lots of buttons.

And a vest.

kviiri

@BESW Oooh, definitely. And a vest sounds great.

BESW

07:54

Hat. Must have a hat.

Magician

Fallen London is a browser text-based choose your-own-adventure game that's properly massive (10-ish novels worth of words atm), and Sunless Sea is a game that's in beta on Steam set in the same universe. It's tagline is "lose your mind, eat your crew".

BESW

@Vorynn Hi! You'll need at least 20 rep on any one Stack Exchange site before you can type in chat rooms, but you're welcome to hang out until then.

kviiri

@BESW Outdoor guards only, I think. But they should have HUGE ones.

In keeping with the British tradition :)

BESW

Roundish, with straps.

kviiri

Also, the bigger your gun, the bigger your hat. Gatling guards will have the biggest ones, right?

BESW

07:56

Or the other way around; the bigger your gun, the less you need your hat to compensate.

kviiri

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hat there's so much to choose from!

BESW

Bearskin

A bearskin is a tall fur cap, usually worn as part of a ceremonial military uniform. Traditionally, the bearskin was the headgear of grenadiers, and it is still worn by grenadier and guards regiments in various armies. == Origins == The cloth caps worn by the original grenadiers in European armies during the 17th century were frequently trimmed with fur. The practice fell into disuse until the second half of the eighteenth century when grenadiers in the British, Spanish and French armies began wearing high fur hats with cloth tops and, sometimes, ornamental front plates. The purpose appears to...

kviiri

Kepi

The kepi (English pronunciation: /ˈkɛpiː/ or /ˈkeɪpiː/) is a cap with a flat circular top and a visor (American English) or peak (British English). Etymologically, the term is a loanword of the French képi, itself a respelled version of the Alemannic Käppi: a diminutive form of Kappe, meaning "cap". In Europe, this headdress is most commonly associated with French military and police uniforms. In North America, it is usually associated with the United States Civil War, as it was worn by soldiers on both sides of the conflict. == French army - historic == The kepi was formerly the most com...

Yay, I can onebox!

Shako

A shako (/ˈʃækoʊ/, /ˈʃeɪkoʊ/, or /ˈʃɑːkoʊ/) is a tall, cylindrical military cap, usually with a visor, and sometimes tapered at the top. It is usually adorned with some kind of ornamental plate or badge on the front, metallic or otherwise, and often has a feather, plume (see hackle), or pompom attached at the top. == Origins == The word shako originated from the Hungarian name csákós süveg ("peaked cap"), which was a part of the uniform of the Hungarian hussar of the 18th century. Other spellings include chako, czako, schako and tschako. From 1800 on the shako became a common military headdress...

That one for commanding officers.

I put the "hat" in "chat".

2

kviiri

09:21

@BESW, I figured it out on the lunch. The "casual" indoor guards (who'll also be acting as guides and general helping hands) have red vests with thin black vertical stripes and golden buttons, white cuffed sleeves and gloves, dark brown trousers and shined leather shoes.

BESW

Ah, yes. White gloves are crucial.

kviiri

For outdoor guards, add a hat, replace vest with a red coat and pretty shoes with leather boots.

Actually, I could make the trousers black or dark blue, like they were historically in VIctorian England.

A bit like that, but a tad less ceremonial!

BESW

These are private guards, right?

kviiri

Yes, that might have implications on how "actual-military" they are allowed to look.

BESW

My thought exactly.

kviiri

09:29

Hmm, I wish I wasn't a poor drawer. But no matter, they can visualize it as they please!

BESW

@Mourdos [wave]

kviiri

I think the trousers could be dark brown anyway. That's a convenient color for someone who's about to face a bank robbery.

BESW

Heh.

BESW

09:52

Going full-screen, but am pingable.

kviiri

10:25

I wonder what sort of weaponry the steampunk people would use.

BESW

11:04

@kviiri Gauss guns; taser swords/clubs; acupuncture projectiles...

(Remember, the steampunk age isn't just advanced/quirky science: it's also a fascination with the pseudo-scientific. Have weapons that project magnetic fields to make enemies less aggressive!)

kviiri

Aren't gauss guns powered by electricity?

A fricken' huge steam-powered machinegun would be cool.

Steam tanks, why not!

I need something weird sciency as well. AW features rules for "psychic maelstrom" etc, and I don't want to cut those.

Portable Gatling guns, that'd be swell.

BESW

@kviiri Magnets, seances, mummy powder--the Power of the Mind and the Secrets of the Ancients are obsessions of that era.

kviiri

I also came upon this idea of a tower that's basically a huge lightning rod. It can be manipulated so it gets struck by lightning easier, and when it does the charge allows it to propel a projectile at a very fast speed. It's basically a lightning-powered rail gun.

But that's more of a siege weapon, I was thinking of personal-scale stuff. I think revolvers, Mausers etc are the common ones, but crude assault rifles should exist too (they are one of the weapons offered by AW and I don't want to limit that choice for no reason). Also, portable Gatling Guns, because why not!

BESW

11:21

I am of the opinion that simply using anachronistic technology with the "super-steam technology" justification isn't enough--and in fact should generally be avoided--in a steampunk setting.

Instead, use new weapons in line with the ethos of the age.

kviiri

Hm, good point.

I'm going to keep the player weapons functionally identical, though, because I'm a lazy bum.

Luckily, the game doesn't feature weapons like laser guns etc; just plain old kinetic weapons that could've (and frankly, I believe would've) developed just fine in a Steampunk universe.

The interesting stuff is what I'll give to the enemies.

BESW

[snerk] You think you can give weapons to enemies that won't end up in the hands of the players?

kviiri

Well it's the plain ol' pistol for most of the mooks :)

I have a bit of difficulty with the weapons because I think (personal) weapons aren't the interesting bits of steampunk.

Locomotion, steam tanks, big guns, those are more fascinating. For small weapons, I think our actual weapons like AK47 are something you'd find in a steampunk world.

Actually, they're almost as if invented in a steampunk world...

BESW

11:37

Mmm. One of the common steampunk aesthetics is "screw practicality."

But yes, one of the attractions of the steampunk aesthetic is also how close it came to being our own.

kviiri

Gauss snipers could be cool, though, for the low noise.

No metal on metal action, nor combustion.

I hadn't really even thought of that, thanks.

kviiri

11:58

Overall, though, I guess the emphasis will be more on caper and aesthetics than any serious attempt to create a steampunky world.

Joshua Aslan Smith

yo

apparently I got a bunch of rep for my shadowrun 5e questions and answers

A game Ive played twice

kviiri

Nice :P

Joshua Aslan Smith

basically look at failed innovations from the 1800s and build off that

automatic revolvers would be my go to

kviiri

Yeah, I think the submachine gun could be an automatic revolver.

The sniper rifle is, if I recall correctly, silenced by default, so it could be replaced by a gauss gun with no mechanical difference.

Joshua Aslan Smith

thats such a ridiculous picture

kviiri

12:07

Which?

Joshua Aslan Smith

guass sniper rifle

guass firearms as developed tend to use either flat rings or round ball (like a musket ball) ammunition both of which have terrible aerodynamics beyond that the nature of the firearm doesn't really support rifling so yeah just a funnyt though

kviiri

Apart from not knowing how the magnets would work, I think that fits the steampunk scenario just fine.

I haven't read a lot of steampunk (and most of the stuff I've read was written as futuristic sci-fi, not steampunk) but magnets seem to be quite a bit deal.

wax eagle

← 1 message moved from D&D 5e Discussion Goes Here.

kviiri

@JoshuaAslanSmith Is there some specific reason for that?

At least the examples in Wikipedia feature bullet-like ammunition.

The lack of rifling could be an issue so I'll just handwave it by saying it uses special self-stabilizing projectiles :)

Joshua Aslan Smith

12:25

I know in the flat ring (like a washer) case it allows you to apply more force

because you have a center rod of magnets

kviiri

Oh, I see.

Still, a gauss sniper would have the advantage of stealth. No noise to be heard or smoke to be seen.

I guess I can handwave any problems away.

wax eagle

@kviiri ummm how many volts are you emitting from the electromagnets? becuase high voltage tends to hum a bit.

kviiri

Dunno! I'm not the party physicist :)

Still, such noise is probably slight compared to the bang and the slide action noise of conventional gunpowder weaponry.

wax eagle

@kviiri probably at least when you get into comparable velocities and calibers

actually, looking at the size of some of the Caps on wiki...there might be a quite noticable click when they fire

mbriand

Really what would make the most sound is the supersonic bang if the projectile has a decent speed.

wax eagle

12:31

also true

kviiri

An alternative silent steampunk sniper would be an air rifle.

But I still don't think a coilgun would match a comparable conventional assault rifle in noise. Whether it's still silent or not, is a different matter.

I guess I'll go with air rifles; they've got a good precedent (in Sherlock Holmes stories) and I honestly don't know how you could create a coilgun without electricity.

wax eagle

@kviiri you could do it, but it'd be huge. (it'd still use electricity, it would just be generated by crank, stored in rudimentary caps etc)

so it'd be useful for a giant set piece rather than a hand held weapon

Joshua Aslan Smith

I dont think any gauss gun has acheived supersonic speed

the only alternate fire weapon to do so would be the rail guns being built for the navy right now

but those

are huge

wax eagle

yeah

kviiri

@waxeagle I was thinking of having Gatling / Gauss gun / Steam machine gun emplacements anyway.

wax eagle

12:44

the kind of propulsion you're going to get from passing a magnet through a strong EM field isn't going to be a crazy amount, you'd need a bunch of coils of really high voltages to get to super sonics

Joshua Aslan Smith

and the problem they have with the rail guns is making sure the barrel is used for more than 1 shot

kviiri

But air rifles are cool too, I like subverting the general idea that they're just kiddie toys.

These babies are loaded with a can of pressurized air and hurt just as hard as a buffalo rifle.

Joshua Aslan Smith

itd be a good weapon for an assassin to use, especially if hes around for a bit to foil the players actions

kviiri

Ah, time to go home. See you guys later and thanks for brainstorming with me!

Joshua Aslan Smith

cool

@waxeagle thanks for running last night

was that 5e rules sheet a module you had to setup or was it just something being offered?

BESW

12:47

Blaaaah I think I'm hitting up on the shortcomings of the Cthulhu Dark scenario format.

Joshua Aslan Smith

because the last time I used roll20 for a campaign they didnt support anything as complicated as that (Granted 4e has way too much stuff going on for it to ever support it in that way) was cool to see

@besw from a mechanics perspective or a storytelling one?

BESW

@JoshuaAslanSmith ...yes? It's a formula for outlining the adventure.

Joshua Aslan Smith

gotcha wasnt sure if it was also a system

just was wondering

BESW

But I think I'm expecting too much of it.

Joshua Aslan Smith

you dream too deeply!

BESW

12:50

Iä! Iä! Cthulhu Dark fhtagn!

Joshua Aslan Smith

right? as soon as I typed that my voice whispered in my mind THE SLEEPER HAS AWOKEN

which is more dune I think

but yeah

thugnotes just did mountains of madness

BESW

[sculpts figures of terrifying d6s with indescribable geometry]

Joshua Aslan Smith

►

BESW

...Elder Thangs?

Hrm. [pokes NPCs] Which of you fools should have the Terrible Secret?

Joshua Aslan Smith

hahaha

all but one npc take one step backward

wax eagle

13:06

@JoshuaAslanSmith which one?

@JoshuaAslanSmith R20 gave me options to set up a campaign as 5e

I didn't do anything special to the character sheets :)

Aaron

Morning

BESW

[wave]

Grubermensch

Howdy folks

BESW

Yo.

Magician

Hello

Grubermensch

13:20

@JoshuaAslanSmith The full-on character sheets are a relatively recent feature, within the last month or two.

Joshua Aslan Smith

yeah thats what I meant

thats super cool

it makes sense

way to really drive players hopefully get a sub out of them

Mourdos

14:49

@BESW [wave]

Aaron

15:07

Hey @BESW got a moment?

wax eagle

15:24

geeknative.com/47043/texts-kobold

Joshua Aslan Smith

16:01

what does everyone think of the D&D website redesign?

finally out of the early 2000s

wax eagle

I like it OK, will take a bit to find stuff again

Joshua Aslan Smith

yeah My instinctual navigation is gone, but the art style for 5e is better than 4es I think

or at least at this point more cohesive

in the way essentials had a defined style

I just wanna print the PHB internal first page art on a poster

right up there with some of the best MTG cards (which I hold up as some of the best fantasy artwork Ive ever seen)

obviously MTG cards span a huge range at, but yeah

just noticed the dresden files signup

@JonathanHobbs thanks for sharing

Grubermensch

16:30

@BESW or anybody that knows Fate : how do I scale a big bad?

FAE provides little guidance on what knobs to twist

Joshua Aslan Smith

0

Q: Can we have a RTFM equivalant in the Vote to Close options?

Often enough we get really low-quality questions that are obvious that the asker has not read the rules at all (vs. asking for clarification). Generally these questions seemed to be looked down on by the community as not serving our purpose or helping anyone and encouraging a "read the rules to m...

feature-request vote-to-close

The Oracle

0

Q: Can we have a RTFM equivalant in the Vote to Close options?

Often enough we get really low-quality questions that are obvious that the asker has not read the rules at all (vs. asking for clarification). Generally these questions seemed to be looked down on by the community as not serving our purpose or helping anyone and encouraging a "read the rules to m...

feature-request vote-to-close

Aaron

17:03

@JoshuaAslanSmith I can think of one word but what does the F stand for?

Joshua Aslan Smith

It stands for exactly what you think it stands for

mbriand

This is a programming acronym, not the most patient of all people.

Joshua Aslan Smith

RTFM came out of RTM or at least Id like to believe it

like someone comes for help and you say have you read the manual? say that enough times and you just respond with RTFM

for example see:

►

wax eagle

@Aaron Friendly. You're thinking of Friendly!

Joshua Aslan Smith

17:18

I think SE has a pretty tim view of help vampires

wax eagle

definitely friendly. Couldn't possibly be any other word....*certainly* not one that indicates that these questions could easily be solved by simply opening the manual, flipping to the right page and reading the *friendly* text.

Joshua Aslan Smith

141

Q: The Help Vampire problem

What is Stack Overflow's long-term solution for the Help Vampire problem? Quote from article follows: Identifying Help Vampires can be tricky, because they look like any ordinary person (or Internet user, whichever is lesser). But by closely observing an individual's behavior using this hand...

discussion vampire

Aaron

17:35

@JoshuaAslanSmith Ha. I just logged into my work VPN and now get a "Video not available in your country" message.

@JoshuaAslanSmith Frowns I fall under one of those unfortunately. I always like to ask others before I google. Start up a discussion on the topic so I can more thoroughly learn it.

Joshua Aslan Smith

asking here in chat is different than asking a question

when you casually post in chat its fine

when someone writes a question expecting to get answers when they havent read the appropriate material(s) its a problem

Aaron

@waxeagle I want to see a certain scene from Boondock Saints with this replacement. I bet it would be amusing.

@JoshuaAslanSmith Ah. I assume you found this link do to your other question?

wax eagle

@Aaron would be better with a different..."ing" word I think

Joshua Aslan Smith

I dont actually think RTFM should be the actual option, but something along those lines, RTFM was good shorthand for the title and an attentiongrabber

@phil fair point on your answer

@aaron its a super edit of everytime they say have you tried turning it off and on again from the IT Crowd

wax eagle

SO actually had (or has) a similar close reason but they got rid of it

Joshua Aslan Smith

17:44

Which is somethign I say almost daily

Sometimes I feel SE is getting mission creep

wax eagle

a bit, yes

Joshua Aslan Smith

answers for experts I thought summed it up quite nicely, but in variouis SE places Ive seen a trend toward a wikipedia style mission

which I think is in conflict with the expert part.

I got sorta hammered on some of my first questions and answers here (by brian ballsun) who was not rude but brusque and rightly so for I hadnt really processed all the guidelines and the about/help pages.

Im not advocating gate-keeping, just that we don't lower standards out of good intentions to keep people around.

Aaron

@JoshuaAslanSmith I should probably read those...

Whistles and walks away quickly

wax eagle

#nachoproblems: having to hunt for exposed chips that actually have something on them

Joshua Aslan Smith

18:23

lol

my area of town needs a diner

never will happen because the primary customers would be college students and ghetto peeps at night but a man can dream, there so many times I just wanna sit in a both and drink mediocre coffee while I eat a patty melt and stare into space for my lunch hour and nothing nearby approximates that

lisardggY

18:51

@JoshuaAslanSmith I'd love one too. But because this is imported culture, anything similar that gets opened here feels artificial and contrived, and is usually a lot more upscale and slumming it, with a faux-dinerish decor and overpriced burgers.

wax eagle

@lisardggY falafel dives are cool...right?

lisardggY

@waxeagle They're more falafel stands. It's street food, so there isn't really a culture of sitting around in them.

But yes.

At most, a handful of sticky tables with plastic seats.

DampeS8N

I'm not sure, but I think this is the longest answer I've ever given.

lisardggY

Well, I assume it just feels different because it's my culture, and diners feel exotic and interesting.

wax eagle

@lisardggY gotcha

@lisardggY well...they kinda are (in that they are something of a dying breed even here). They've been replaced by coffee shops in a lot of ways

lisardggY

18:55

@DampeS8N This Aldath person has been having quite a string of good questions lately.

@waxeagle Coffee shops and falafel stands coexist nicely here. :)

wax eagle

@lisardggY sadly, one of the two places to get falafel here closed :(. I haven't tried it at the other one (too many other tasty things on the menu)

DampeS8N

@lisardggY This one was timely for me. I've been thinking about this issue with RPGs for the better part of 2 years since running a sleuthing event in my 4E game that was totally successful but didn't feel satisfying.

wax eagle

@lisardggY took them a bit to get their bearings, but they seem to have figured it out

DampeS8N

@lisardggY Interesting. In some places there is a culture of sitting around street-food stands. In Japan, for example, they even have seats and privacy flaps to cut down on street noise.

lisardggY

@DampeS8N Oh, there are usually seats. But there isn't any sort of dinerish hanging-around. You sit, eat your falafel for five minutes and go.

@DampeS8N I'm also going to have to think of all that, since I've been handed the reins of my Ars Magica game, again.

DampeS8N

19:03

@lisardggY the TL;DR of my answer is: Sleuthing scenarios are railroading and are antithetical to most game systems because they artificially restrict both player choice and where the story can go.

wax eagle

@DampeS8N you've obviously done more thinking on this than I (having just thought of this). But what if you're not playing to figure out who did it but to figure out who did it

lisardggY

I agree. But this party (me included, as a player) spent most of our years under a very railroadish GM where the plots usually crashed on our doorstep, so trying to take a more sandboxy, hands-off approach has met with some... procrastination.

wax eagle

(in other words, the guilty party is dependent on the outcome)

lisardggY

@waxeagle The problem here is that you have to keep everything vague enough to avoid locking into a conclusion.

wax eagle

@lisardggY yeah, and that is definitely problematic

has anyone looked at gumshoe and similar?

lisardggY

19:06

@waxeagle I'm planning on it, and even found a page or two (or an answer here?) about taking ideas from gumshoe to Ars Magica.

Though if I understand correctly, gumshoe's investigation mechanics don't really fit the actor-stance mode of play, of discovering things through the characters' eyes. And some of my players prefer to play that way.

DampeS8N

@waxeagle A hallmark of a great who-dun-it is that there is only one person who could have logically done it. It undermines the genre, and the setup of the scenes, to have multiple outcomes. Additionally, you can never account for enough possible potential did-its. And aside from all of that - you are still relying on the PC's not totally failing. Total failure is always an option and it should still be satisfying and lead to more story if they fail and aren't dead.

@waxeagle I reserve judgment against game systems that are specifically designed to model a mystery. They have built in mechanics that solve a lot of the issues and everyone involved is already obviously on board with the reality that failing to solve the mystery is the same as failing to play the game right.

lisardggY

@DampeS8N Of course, some classic works, like Christie's Murder on the Orient Express, deliberately play with that convention.

DampeS8N

@lisardggY This is a case of knowing the rules and selecting to break them. I think it is probably unreasonable to expect the GM of any game to be a world-class mystery author.

lisardggY

@DampeS8N And even Christie didn't have to improvise half her ideas in front of a crowd.

DampeS8N

It is hard enough to write one, adding in player choice makes this exponentially harder, and plausibly striking the delicate balance needed for multiple viable villains is a bridge too far for basically anyone.

@lisardggY Exactly.

wax eagle

19:12

@DampeS8N hmm...so the very nature of the plot is a railroad...interesting

DampeS8N

@waxeagle You got it.

wax eagle

because even things like randomizing the result and planting evidence that leads to the killer and then obfuscating it to the DM still...leads to the same conclusion no matter the path taken to get there

puzzling

DampeS8N

It is pretty clear if you think about it from that perspective. What is a mystery? It is a very specific string of events that have to go down one way to work. If the good guy opens the wrong door in the first paragraph, it could all be over instantly.

The mystery, the tension and all the anticipation around the thing-not-known, is all tied up in the plot. If the events are fluid in any way the mystery is impossible to sustain. You must very tightly control what the PCs have access to, and that's why they aren't satisfying. Because they are railroading and they remove agency from the PC's in a very artificial way.

wax eagle

@DampeS8N yeah it makes good sense really. Mysteries are written from the back forwards (more or less). RPGs are written the other way round (at least in play...generally)

2

Joshua Aslan Smith

yep

I already want to be next thursday

DampeS8N

19:18

@waxeagle It sucks. A good mystery would be really awesome to have in a game. I think they can arise naturally sometimes. But the very moment you attempt to sustain that tension, you pull the PC's out of their characters heads. The mystery may end up really cool to talk about later, but it has lost that magic that makes RPGs real.

Joshua Aslan Smith

being a player again is really rejuvenating

wax eagle

@JoshuaAslanSmith glad to hear it! Next session might end up being entirely RP

(probably not, but there is a good bit to do in town)

Joshua Aslan Smith

the brief glance I looked at for the town seemed to suggest that

the fact that we alrady found slydarr or whatever his name was should move things along

were not at town being like, where it our dwarf friend

wax eagle

@JoshuaAslanSmith yes, it should

Joshua Aslan Smith

Having the goblin run back toward the cave was both good DMing and it felt right for what occured

wax eagle

19:20

@JoshuaAslanSmith yeah, the scenario there is you go to town, deliver the supplies, the guy at the supply shop says "hey those guys never showed, go find the goblins" and then you head back to the trail...maybe stopping in at the inn

Joshua Aslan Smith

yep

wax eagle

@JoshuaAslanSmith I lucked out a bit that @Grubermensch missed his attack :).

Joshua Aslan Smith

very much

wax eagle

he was written to flee, and I'd missed that in the first past through the adventure

Joshua Aslan Smith

hopefully my turns move faster next time

I felt like I was the slowest person because I was tabbing between spells and weapon attacks

wax eagle

19:22

@JoshuaAslanSmith I can understand that. A rudimentary checklist might help...at least a short "use this spell under circumstance X"

Joshua Aslan Smith

Oh I just mean mechanically and I had to relook up those spells the first time I cast them

but now the sheet is in and while Ill have 1 more spell to slot in my slotted spells wont really change

wax eagle

@JoshuaAslanSmith cool

@JoshuaAslanSmith yeah, you get to add one to your prep list, but it's the same list to choose from

Joshua Aslan Smith

yep

DampeS8N

@waxeagle I'm playing through the starter campaign as a player myself. I'm enjoying it, but I'm getting close to breaking it. But to talk about why involves spoilers for stuff in town that you haven't gotten to yet so I won't.

wax eagle

@DampeS8N cool, (we're running on thursday night and only have 3 right now, if you're free and want to pop in you're welcome)

DampeS8N

19:27

Suffice to say, I met some bad doods who didn't want me around and I befriended them. Ironically, we are also running it on thursday nights so that's not possible.

Joshua Aslan Smith

I might invite an IRL friend

since hes moving back to cali soon, this could be a nice fix for him

DampeS8N

@waxeagle Plus I'd get really confused playing the same campaign twice at the same time.

wax eagle

@JoshuaAslanSmith cool, I'm down for just about anyone who can behave at least as well as my home group (not a high bar) :)

Joshua Aslan Smith

he gets flustered if people talk over him, but hes gotten a lot better over the last year since he started GMing

DampeS8N

I'm really happy with how smooth 5E is turning out to be in play. It almost vanishes into the background.

Joshua Aslan Smith

19:30

I also think I was way more open to you, the GM, defining what skills for my Princess Bride style intimidation, than I ever would have been pre-Dungeon World

DampeS8N

I'd be answering all kinds of questions about it (I'm more an answerer than an asker) but you keep getting to them first @waxeagle.

wax eagle

@JoshuaAslanSmith understandable. I feel like we were Ok about making sure folks had room to talk last night (I hope?)

Joshua Aslan Smith

Yeah I think I talked over robert once or twice but I dont feel that anyone shouted out or dominated anyone else

wax eagle

@DampeS8N :). I'm around a lot (except this week)

Joshua Aslan Smith

I just to have a slight grudge against wax and oblivious for stealing all the potential 4e rep from me

wax eagle

19:31

ok, I'ma gonna go take my 2 yr old for a sonic slush before happy hour expires (he managed to pick up HF&M at daycare so yeah to sores in his mouth). I'll be back through later

Joshua Aslan Smith

hah

cool

see ya

DampeS8N

mwahaha L. L. Bean just called me, I get rewards points on my credit card that give me $10 coupons that last a year. (you have to redeem them one at a time and also go find them in PDF format one at a time and copy the codes one at a time, a real PITA) I convinced them to send me all 44 of them, as some are expiring and that's why they called, to me in the form of a $440 gift card that will never expire.

Pants! I will swim in an ocean of pants!

Joshua Aslan Smith

19:48

pants FO DAYS

I feel like I should get a credit card

Aaron

@JoshuaAslanSmith It's a trap!

Joshua Aslan Smith

not really at my age and where Im at in life

27

masters degree

looking for a professional job

Aaron

I was mainly kidding.

Joshua Aslan Smith

understood

Aaron

CC are not that bad if you have a steady income and have self control.

Joshua Aslan Smith

19:55

indeed

Aaron

They get a bad rep because most people who get them are not mature enough for them and/or do not have a steady income.

@DampeS8N Oh hey

Grubermensch

I am uncomfortable with the principle of credit cards. And irritated that they have become somewhat necessary in the modern (US) financial system.

Aaron

@DampeS8N Do you buy 3pp stuff for your umm gaming area... store thing. What is your business categorized as again?

@Grubermensch Meh. I have never had one and probably never will.

Grubermensch

@Aaron You an ay-dult yet?

Joshua Aslan Smith

You dont need them, it just means you legit have to save up a lot more to buy major purchases

Grubermensch

19:58

Cause I used to say that.

Aaron

@Grubermensch Yea pretty much. I just save up when I want something instead of buying it right away and then paying almost twice as much as it's worth on it.

Grubermensch

Also they are one of the easiest ways to establish good credit.

@Aaron Twice as much....?

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