@besw cosmic horror

Ah, thanks.

That answer was fun to research and write.

And very useful for me now that I'm running Cthulhu Dark games.

I guess if you read all the batman discussion let me know your thoughts

I dont feel I quite got to why I think A) batman has full agency and B)traumatic events are irreversibly life changing. and C) how both are compatible

I gotta go, but very briefly: I think one of the great strengths of Batman as a concept, and the reason he's survived so long, as that he's not a solid character: the "Batman" concept has little to no personality behind it, so he can adapt to whatever society needs or wants him to be.

you're saying the elevator pitch for the character

gotcha

Which makes it really hard to analyse him as a person, because he's not a person and stories which try to give him a complex personality struggle uphill against the character's own inertia.

right it is fair that which batman you talk about matters (animated vs nolan vs burton vs comics: frank miller vs grant morrisoin vs golden age vs. silver age vs new 52 etc.)

"Batman" is a storytelling framework on which to support explorations of the author's chosen theme.

my canonical batman is BTAS, Batman Beyond, JL and JLU animated series', all frank miller batman, new 52 batman. basically the stuff I have the most knowledge about, but also some of that great golden age origin story stuff.

right

he is an archetypical character in the way superman was/is for the comic culture

@BESW I think this jives with my feelings on Batman, though I have less understanding of canon than either of you

So @JoshuaAslanSmith I think the crux of my dislike of Batman in favor of others is that I like my superheroes to be people, not personas

you should pick up the frank miller stuff, lots of personal character, but also persona, its messy in that way

Heh.

The Dark Knight Returns and Batman Year One being the big graphic novels, but also All star Batman and robin sort of showing the emotional journey batman progresses through.

or just read this article

I, on the other hand, think Miller's Batman is ridiculously non-person. He's a mouthpiece for Miller.

comicsalliance.com/frank-miller-batman

itll sum it up a bunch and its free

@Grubermensch It's a common problem with DC characters; they're defined by their heroism rather than their personhood.

(By contrast, Marvel characters are usually defined by their personal drama, which can lead to other storytelling problems.)

@BESW Arrow has been doing some nice personhood.

I think currently he's my favorite. Though admittedly I don't read comics so, once again, I'm missing a lot.

I... well, I think Arrow's got some grand and noble ideas but the actual execution is slipshod and inconsistent, if not incoherent.

right, I actually found it weird that you grouped spiderman and batman together earlier because Parker just up and quits being spiderman a lot because of self doubt

and as a character he progressed a lot throught he 60s to the 80s eventually married marry jane etc.

whereas DC tends to have hard reboots more often

I grouped specifically the 2000s movie spiderman with batman

and it was specifically about the single transformative loss for both characters

as opposed to the latest spidey who just keeps getting beaten up again and again

gotcha I think we discussed beyond that though

lol the terry mcguinnis school of superheroing

right I feel they are so very different though because Uncle ben really is Peter's fault

Have we mentioned The Killing Joke yet?

@BESW That's perhaps a valid criticism. I've missed chunks of it, and I tend to watch it 10 episodes at a time, so maybe I should go back and rewatch to gauge that feel.

no, because I strongly dislike it

@JoshuaAslanSmith Regardless, its influence on Batman in particular and on superheroes in general makes it impossible to ignore outright.

@JoshuaAslanSmith Interestingly, in the latest movies, Uncle Ben isn't so much Peter's fault.

peter got his powers, was like cool Ill just frivel them on making money and becoming cool and getting the girl etc. and out of anger at the fight promoter for not paying him his cut he lets a robber get away "not my problem" "serves him right" Peter's apathy and selfishness lead to uncle ben getting shot

bruce on the other hand hes just a kid, in nolan he gets scared at an opera, which is totally an okay thing to do as a kid. Vs. comics where they just happen to go see zorro and the mugging takes place afterward

@JoshuaAslanSmith oh never mind you're right

sorry not trying to beat you down just express what I was thinking

nope i misremembered

oh okay I totally read a sardonic tone into that

ah no sorry, probably just me typing fast

i'm having like three conversations and trying to read two different things at the same time

(@Grubermensch The Killing Joke is a one-shot Batman comic in which the Joker decides to prove he's a normal, average person. His thesis is that everyone is just "one bad day" away from becoming a superhero or a supervillain. We learn what his Bad Day was, and he postulates that Batman must have had a Bad Day too. The Joker tries to prove his thesis by giving Commissioner Gordon a very bad day.)

interesting

That "One Bad Day" notion is EXTREMELY visible in Dark Knight; the Joker is basically trying to give Gotham in general --and Harvey Dent in particular-- a Bad Day.

yeah

(Notice how Ledger's Joker toys with the notion of the origin story, giving multiple Bad Days which each justify his becoming the person he is.)

I just generally don't like alan moore's deconstruction of the superhero genre, which is why I never brought it up.

Both Moore and Miller are brilliant storytellers who I strongly disagree with both aesthetically and ethically, but their influence on the superhero genre is undeniable.

(Although Sin City as a work of art divorced from its content is one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen in comics.)

I'll always love what my hollywood liberal screen writing professor said about Watchmen, "The character I most identify with is a hardcore right winger who enjoys hurting criminals and may be crazy"

Incidentally, I'm very interested to see how Gotham is presented. Though I suspect it will get canceled.

I think frank gets such a bad rap for sin city's stories. Im definitely looking forward to the new film.

yeah

origin-story-of-the-week seems like a difficult premise to hold onto

I dont think gotham will last, if they went straight "Gotham Central", comic series that was only about the supporting characters and even then Gordon isn't a main character in it, I think it could work, but they look to busy to be namedropping and hinting about the future of what will become the bat family universe

right

on the other hand Constantine looks like it could actually survive and be good

The only way it will work is if they go closer to how Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. is done, and keep the famous characters on the periphery.

for batman, I mean there are very few super powered batman enemies

@JoshuaAslanSmith He did exactly what he set out to do: write a series of graphic novels that are little more than an excuse to portray everything the Comics Code Authority had been censoring. It's a petty thing without much substance--kicking an institution after it's down and celebrating being able to do nasty things again--but it had its place in the healing of the industry. And at the end of the day he did exactly what he set out to do.

@JoshuaAslanSmith supers? did I say supers? no, of course not....

totally read famous as superpowered

in my head

@JoshuaAslanSmith absolutely. all in your head. 100%.

they totally arent going to do that because we'll have kid version of selina kyle, Cobblepot before he becomes a penguin, they said theyre going to tease the joker in every episode

yeah, but it's a shame

right, it couldve been great

excited for The Flash though

and more Arrow

The day they make a Blue Beetle show...

(Pre-New-52 Jaime, please!)

@BESW I have learned a word: commensality

Cool!