I think we should link to the rules in all our answers :P

@GMNoob definitely

I don't see any mechanical weight to the lifestyle section, is that correct?

Silly d3, you can't announce new products today!

@GMNoob srsly, that doesn't seem like a good idea

(unless they want to be overlooked)

@waxeagle depends what you mean

@waxeagle It could be relevant if you play an urban game.

to quote :)

Suddenly I have to figure out how to make 3000 gp a month to keep living in my little palace.

@GMNoob aye, nothing explicitly mechanical, but implicitly provides advantage/disadvantage in certain scenarios

@Grubermensch true, can provide quite the motivation

would be quite fun in a much larger shared play world....

man I wish En Garde had worked out for us

@waxeagle I consider that mechanical. Because otherwise I would have those be adventure/plot based

@waxeagle There is a nice world on Myth-weavers that is going to be having 5e games

more questions!

It's so hard to know what to ask.

lol

@GMNoob Yeah, I'm looking for the things I consider novel

@Grubermensch yeah, I think it's going to be a requirement for new PCs in my games

alright got let out of work early when I said I was going to read now home, now reading

"A white sequined glove sized for a human"

lol

4e legacy: Specific beats general outlined clearly in the rules introduction'

@JoshuaAslanSmith yes, happy to see that

Not exactly sure how I feel about how deathy 5E could be under certain situations. Most specifically, Instant Death.

oooh I like the handy ability score summary in character creation which easilly shows which races/subraces get bonuses to once in one place

@JoshuaAslanSmith yes, it's a cool table

interesting Starting GP is class based

Happy 4th guys see ya around.

you too

definitely prohibiting MCing until PHB comes out. Too much we don't know

oh wow racial stat boosts are higher again

@JoshuaAslanSmith yeah racial is +2, sub race is +1 mostly but one +2

@waxeagle oh-hoho variant human traits = 4e human yes please

perfect race to get a specific build off the ground

yep

human barbarian would be pretty strong since adv while raging

I thought I would need my highlighter a lot more but the color coding and heading breakdowns show a lot of polish

very impressed

production value on this is high.

loving all the quick reference tables showing at a glance the mechanical differences between races and classes

@waxeagle Novel and maybe also clear departures from past editions.

dark ulterior motive of the playtest: lower expectations?

@JoshuaAslanSmith more likely it was just practicality

@JoshuaAslanSmith Are you referring to the game itself or the presentation quality?

@JoshuaAslanSmith lol

Oh I know Im just being snarky

presentation quality and production value (by which I mean clear and concise writing and editing)

You know why they have all these cool tables? Copyright/IP laws

answer: create wizard, summon roguish monsters.

where was this trinket table?

ha

@JoshuaAslanSmith Page 54

this is amazing

also the fact that the PCs get to roll this at character creation for a random story item

So many of these are excellent adventure hooks

I also like how it sets up the expectation of minor magical objects that are just all over the place.

a silver badge in the shape of a five point star

Read:sheriff star

I link the idea of low magic being prevelant but powerful high magic items being rare

Or, well-concealed shuriken

In line with the post-apocalyptic foundation of D&D

@JoshuaAslanSmith The fact that this tiny trivial element dictates how much you will or wont like a game is upsetting.

Also with the general expectations from fantasy literature

Rules are not playstyles. A rule should not tell me that a character should start with a mcmuffin.

@InbarRose no bearing on whether I like the edition or not as a whole, its just a fun little quirk

Way to read into that comment

@InbarRose Why not? The rules tell you that your character starts with all sorts of other things.

it says "you can"

as in you are not required to roll trinkets

By "fun little quirk" do you mean, "horribly distracting rule element which enforces more meaningless rules into the game" than sure.

Look Ive had plenty of arguments with grubermensch, but I think you are specifically being antagonistic right now inbar rose

But a group of friends playing 3rd edition can also decide to roll for random trinkets... The fact that this edition puts it in your face and says "This is a good idea" is insulting my creativity and freedom.

@JoshuaAslanSmith With ya on this one

@JoshuaAslanSmith A little. But also this kind of meandering and addition of worthless features just for a "wow" factor really upsets me.

its 2 pages admittedly in a 110 page booklet, but its also free? So yeah?

I'm an intelligence person, I am a mature person, and more people buying the game are. Don't treat me like a child.

I dont think design intent being different to yoru tastes means its inherently disenfranchising your ideals

You realize that this is pretty standard format for quick characterization in literature, right? You put a thing in a person's hands, and now you know something about that person.

@JoshuaAslanSmith did you get to the MJ glove yet?

And nothing says the characters can't pick trinkets intentionally, rather than randomly.

no what number?

"A table to roll random trinkets at character creation" is not a feature for any game ever. It is at most a supplement. And even at that, groups should decide how they want to play.

yeah

again it explicitly says you can roll it once at character creation

not you have to

or you should

@JoshuaAslanSmith 35

hahaha

There is no difference. Sheeple will do what they are told.

@JoshuaAslanSmith Evidenced more by the fact that this is way out of the way from character creation rules.

the existence of sci fi type stuff in D&D would totally lead me to create a real world gateway

@Grubermensch yeah, totally a player option, though I'm so tempted to make it a houseruled mandate

IE: "Do you want fries with that?" or "Do you want to supersize it?" (Yes, those are both fast food industry examples)

@InbarRose you just used sheeple in a conversation/argument. its hard to take any of your opinions seriously.

Oh come on.

@InbarRose suggestive sales, it works amazingly well

If you put a carrot infront of a horse it will eat it.

literally put yourself in the same category as conspiracy theorists with that one term

If you put a table in front of a player he will roll on it.

making passive skills universal = win

I still do not see what is so terrible about encouraging character depth.

Nothing

But don't do it with a huge table and the words "Roll this at character creation"

Why not, that's basically the D&D way.

Without getting into it now, that is exactly the problem.

aid another simply provides advantage, good deal

But I am more specifically arguing against any "rules" system from providing "story" elements.

@waxeagle Oh thank God that was so terribly confusing in the past.

(though it does result in the problem of not providing a shift of the scale, but that's Ok as DCs are nicely bound)

A rules system should give me the tools to make my world. It shouldn't be a puzzle that only fits together in one way.

@InbarRose So, if I understand you correctly, this whole thing would be perfectly fine with the addition of the clause "or the player may suggest a suitable trinket of their own design."

No.

@InbarRose The DMG agrees with you, but this isn't the DMG.

I have nothing against a rich set of trinkets. Even include a random rolling table with it. Fine. But to say that characters can roll for a starting item... (I have not seen the source material, Don't know the exact wording)... Upsets me.

@InbarRose Also, my idea of a system is the exact opposite. I want a good world to play it. I don't want to spend my time coming up with my own only to not have time to play it. Give me a good story I can sit down and run with in an hour or two.

Of course I can roll for a starting item.. I could roll for a starting castle, or a starting enemy, or a starting prophecy.. Whatever. I am unlimited, because I have imagination.

Reducing all my options with a single suggestion.. well.. it's just not conducive in my mind to a good system.

The more examples you give someone, the less freedom he has.

Well splendiferous for you. A lot of people find it difficult to create in a vacuum.

Perhaps.

But that's usually because they are used to getting everything already spelled out for them.

@InbarRose The less freedom you have the more creative you become. :D

Sorry guys. I have to rush off. I would love to continue this later.

@InbarRose Um no. It's because they are human beings. Most poetry has strict rules for the same reason.

Putting guidelines down tells you where the lines are drawn in the sand, which means you can see how to step over them.

As an artist, a teacher, and a person deeply invested in the study of creating environments conducive to agency: people tend to be most creative and inventive when challenged to do so within a context slightly outside the bounds of what they have become comfortable with. Everyone can do this on their own, but many (myself included) find it useful to get a little push out of our comfort zone.

getting up from prone only costs half your speed, so you can stand up, and move a square or three

@BESW So if I do a lot of haikus I'll end up being less creative with them?

It's the "if you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail" dilemma: that creative inertia which guides us to use the solutions we have used before rather than to look for new ones.

@waxeagle I have been amused by your persistence in commenting on the playtest throughout this argument.

variant gridded rules use 4e movement

@GMNoob No. If you write many forms of poetry, you will become more creative in all of them.

Morningstar!

@Grubermensch I'm mostly stating interesting things for the sake of stating them, and if people want to respond and discuss we can thread :)

@BESW So, I don't understand the comfort zone comment. If I write lots of haikus they will be within my comfort zone.

time to commute, I'll be back after kids are in bed tonight

@GMNoob Right, and you'll probably get quite good at them!

@waxeagle Goodluck!

@GMNoob I think yes, you will over time produce less creative/interesting works due to staying with the same form.

But if you also seek out new and exciting poetry forms--maybe try the sestina--you'll be forced to look at poetry in new interesting ways which the haiku form would not have compelled, but which will inform your future haikuery.

Yep, this is similar to how physical athletes often play multiple seemingly-unrelated sports.

You could have reached the same poetic insights through force of creative will while writing only haikus, but writing the sestina makes it easier and more likely that you bend your brain in directions the haiku doesn't traditionally take it.

A narrow focus can give great depth to a skill, but creativity is often better fostered when coupled with breadth of experience.

Playing Dogs in the Vineyard and running My Life With Master made me a better game master in my D&D games.

(And ultimately played a significant role in driving me away from the franchise, but that's a different parable.)

concur

@besw hello

[wave]

What's new?

loving the actual care the basic pdf seems to have been given in terms of design aesthetics

got out of work early for 4th of july

(Tangentially, I once improvised personalised prophetic haikus for each of the PCs in a game, about halfway through the campaign. It was a lot of fun watching them try to figure out if/when the prophecies were fulfilled, and trying to fulfil/avoid them.)

nice

@JoshuaAslanSmith As a Linuxer, I am very happy that it is not causing my PDF viewer to blow up, as is often the case with these things.

They found a pond of prophetic koi, who would recite a prophetic haiku if you fed them.

One character dumped almost a day's rations into the pond before the others dragged him away.

I got my website up and running again

but I can't access it from my computer lol

time to reboot...

@besw as a fellow deco hound I think youd appreciate this

@JoshuaAslanSmith Nice lines!

all lines all the time

But the presentation is a little choppy; it starts and stops too much, gets repetitious.

Also, that music reminds me inescapably of this.

Finally!

There is now also a printer friendly version of hte rules posted

Apparently all you need is some hires images to make a site look good

@JonathanHobbs Morningstar!

@BESW Good morningstar to you too.

Club mace, life preserver?

@BESW weapons generally are very useful for preserving (certain) lives

@JonathanHobbs That's actually exactly the context of the term.

In Britain until relatively recently (during the golden age of murder mysteries), murderers were always executed.

So crooks used less-lethal "coshes" and clubs to make it harder for them to kill their targets, and to get them a chance at "manslaughter" charges instead of murder.

Haha, wow.

Yeah, I just now took a second look at that definition and saw definition #2.