TRPG General Chat

wax eagle

12:11 AM

cleric: enworld.org/forum/…!

4

DuckTapeAl

1:13 AM

@Aaron If you're still around, I steam quite a bit.

BESW

1:24 AM

@waxeagle I'm rather bemused by how the Background and the Flaw are at odds. If it were deliberate I'd say "awesome character!" but there's no sense it is.

wax eagle

@BESW That is quite odd. Why would one devote oneself to their deity following expulsion from the military, yet still doubt the deity's existence...very strange

BESW

Today in Images I Will Someday Use In Storium.

DuckTapeAl

He doesn't doubt the deity's existance, just whether the god cares about mortals.

BESW

1:40 AM

I've seen excellent role-playing of religious characters who believe their deity is uncaring, and so it's the responsibility of the faithful to care instead. But there's no indication that's what's going on here.

DuckTapeAl

It seems more like he's just super jaded, in this case. Especially with the whole 'got kicked out of the military for doing the right thing' thing.

BESW

Aye, and that would make sense... except the background implies he didn't become dedicated to his deity until after he got kicked out, which makes for an awkward timeline if getting kicked out of the military is part of his becoming jaded and cynical about his god.

Still not an absolute contradiction or impossibility, just requiring increasingly complicated inventions to justify.

DuckTapeAl

1:55 AM

That sentence makes me think more "I got fired, so now God is my new job until unemployment runs out" than "I did what was right and then found god".

BESW

It could've used another pass with an editor to make sure all the RP bits could mesh with each other gracefully.

DuckTapeAl

shrug

Magician

Something I didn't notice on the fighter charsheet, but it's true there too: ability improvement gives +2 to a stat. Is there any use at all for odd stats now?

Overall, much better than a fighter. Clerics get choices, surprise!

Not clear if the amount of spells you prepare increases (you get 4 at the start), or just their level. Guess that's explained in the rulebook proper.

DuckTapeAl

AFAIK, odd stats are basically garbage now.

Magician

And this must be all the newfangled indie rpgs talking, but it almost seems like by 5th level clerics would have too much choice. 4 (or more) prepared spells, 6 domain spells, 1 or 2 options for channel divinity (depending on whether you're facing undead), actually hitting people with a stick.

DuckTapeAl

2:05 AM

With your 4th level bonus, you can either get +2 to one stat, or +1 to two stats.

wax eagle

@Magician I don't think so

@Magician not to mention that they have their whole list to pick from every day too

Magician

Right. So they're only keeping stats instead of modifiers for nostalgic reasons by this point.

wax eagle

brand identity maybe?

Magician

@waxeagle Oh, and many spells can be cast at different levels for varying strength of effect!

wax eagle

(they are capped at 20, but you could just as easily say, mods cap at +5

Magician

2:07 AM

@waxeagle Sacred cows must be turned into studded leather armor.

wax eagle

aye, agreed.

trying to listen to the stream they did earlier, but my internet sucks

(link is here: youtube.com/…)

DuckTapeAl

My DM houseruled in some stuff that makes odd stats worthwhile again, but that's sort of a half-measure.

I think the rule was that odd stats add to damage and saves? I think?

Magician

@waxeagle an hour-long unboxing. I guess they talk about its contents a lot?

wax eagle

@Magician yes

and design decisions that went into the contents

Magician

2:35 AM

Oh, just realized two things. First, add 3 at-will spells to the list of options clerics get every round. Even though 2 of them look highly situational. And second, with channel divinity recharging as it does every short rest, we'll have the exact same situation that was in 4e: why spend healing surges/hit dice, when you can poke your friendly healer every 5 minutes, sitting in a spot until you're good to go.

BESW

They do have the "only up to half health" caveat, but yes.

DuckTapeAl

Also, short rests are an hour in 5th.

BESW

[blink] Oh.

Magician

Er, are you sure?

BESW

Well, that'll take care of the five minute workday, I guess.

DuckTapeAl

2:38 AM

I'm reading the packet now.

Magician

I thought they were 10 minutes or something like that.

DuckTapeAl

Nope.

"at least 1 hour".

Magician

Ah. It was 10 minutes in an earlier version, but they've increased it. Because nothing breaks the flow of the narrative quite like sitting on one's arse for an hour.

BESW

[aintnobodygottimeforthat.jpg]

Magician

And of course people are still going to spend multiple short rests to squeeze those extra few precious hit points from the cleric.

DuckTapeAl

2:41 AM

Have you played 5th yet?

I've been playing for a month or two now, and none of that actually causes problems, in my experience.

BESW

@Magician Within three to six months of public release, I predict rpg.se will field at least one "How can I instill a sense of urgency in my players?" question.

DuckTapeAl

We actually went through a few combat encounters without a short rest in between, because we were under a bit of time pressure.

Magician

@DuckTapeAl I'll probably try the starter set. I've made a couple of characters with different versions of preview rules, and ran a test combat with one. All fairly miserable experiences.

BESW

@DuckTapeAl How was that time pressure felt? What made things urgent and how was it conveyed?

Magician

@DuckTapeAl I guess since characters don't have that many encounter powers, short rests aren't quite as essential.

Whereas in 4e, I eventually entirely abolished the 5 minute requirement, granting short rests as boss fights would shift to different phases.

DuckTapeAl

2:46 AM

It was getting late in the day, and we were trying to explore a crypt before dark.

It was less "omg super urgent' and more 'we don't have time to dawdle'.

Magician

Right. So short rests are an actual strategic choice now that they take an hour.

DuckTapeAl

Yeah.

My experience with 5e so far is that it's basically a smoother version of 3.x, whith a better balance between magic and mundane characters.

BESW

That sounds reasonable. Now if only it's what they'd pitched.

Magician

Speaking of 5e, here's what they're calling a "Living Rule Set" approach. Basically their plan for collecting feedback and issuing errata.

2

I'm not sure why they're expecting to hear in surveys from people other than the ones who care enough to go to online forums and use customer feedback, but maybe they liked the convenience.

DuckTapeAl

That sounds pretty much identical to what they did in 3.5, except for the surveys.

And surveys are a pretty crappy way of getting real feedback from a statistical point of view.

Since they strongly self-select.

The only way to get consistent, real feedback on a game that you're designing is to watch people closely as they play it.

Magician

2:59 AM

Less errata is good, as in 4e it got way out of hand. That said, 4e was mechanically complex and needed it. They're basically banking on 5e being simpler and therefore not needing errata as much.

BESW

[skeptical]

Magician

I'm morbidly amused by them promising to playtest their rules changes before putting them out.

As opposed to what, the usual process?..

BESW

@Magician ...yes?

DuckTapeAl

I'm wondering how long that'll last. Real playtesting is super expensive, and is really hard to justify to higher-ups most of the time.

Magician

@DuckTapeAl I believe they have multiple in-office games running at all times, so that may not be an issue.

I'm listening to the unboxing video, and they're talking of how they wanted to emphasize potential non-violent approaches to dungeons and some of the people living there. Which is cool and all, but isn't actually supported by the mechanics all that much...

Grubermensch

3:07 AM

A lack of real social mechanics has always been a disappointment to me in DnD

DuckTapeAl

@Magician I'm aware of that. From what I've read about the Wizards games (from Monte Cook and a few other sources), those are more just playing than playtesting. Real playtesting is very different than regular play.

BESW

I think KRyan's the one who's fond of pointing at one of the devs saying he "playtested" a wizard with Int as a dump stat.

DuckTapeAl

I believe he was referring to SKReynolds, God of Shitty Chracters.

The Designer Who Hates Mechanics.

Grubermensch

It seems kind of reasonable to me to playtest characters built "wrong"

Like having failure tests for software.

BESW

@Grubermensch Yes, but not as your primary experience in the playtest.

DuckTapeAl

3:20 AM

I see what you're getting at, but those are very different things.

Grubermensch

Yeah that would be odd.

BESW

According to the account I've seen, that "wrong" character was being used to figure out if the rules worked, rather than if they could be broken.

DuckTapeAl

The equivalent to a failure test would be to see if you can choose seemingly-optimal but still bad options and still function as a character.

Like, if you could build an effective archer using crossbows in 3.x.

Or if a fighter with Toughness could still function well.

BESW

You don't stress test a system until you know it can hold up under expected conditions.

DuckTapeAl

That too.

Grubermensch

3:22 AM

@DuckTapeAl No.... The equivalent to a failure test would be if you choose shitty options, the experience should suck.

@BESW I'll agree with that, though.

DuckTapeAl

Ah, I see what you meant. I don't think that's really necessary, though. It's not your goal as a designer to make sure that people playing your game wrong have a bad time.

Assuring that sort of thing is a bit of a wasted effort.

Grubermensch

The same could be said of writing software.

DuckTapeAl

It's more important to make sure that a reasonable player taking reasonable character options has a good time.

Software is very different. You actually care about what happens in the failure case in software.

Grubermensch

Failure tests are important because they can suggest the presence of other problems.

DuckTapeAl

If someone dumps Int as a wizard, it doesn't segfault D&D.

BESW

3:25 AM

If you have all the time in the world, it's a useful way to check your assumptions by looking at the edges of your system. Wizards' dev team doesn't have the time and energy to do basic tests prior to release, much less the luxury of exploring outlier scenarios.

4

Grubermensch

The public beta was a laudable move towards addressing that problem, though.

When all else fails, outsource!

BESW

So when a dev brags about playing a character with deliberately poor mechanical choices in one of the system's very few playtest scenarios prior to release, my response is "You either don't understand or don't care about something very core to your job."

Grubermensch

That's fair.

user61230

3:41 AM

Good eye mite.

Magician

4:08 AM

In that unboxing video, around the 45 minute mark, Mearls and the other guy whose name I can't remember get asked about the very thing I've mentioned today: spending multiple short rests to heal up via abilities rather than hit dice. In particular, fighter's Second Wind gets mentioned (must be an optional ability another starter set fighter took).

Their response, paraphrasing: first, second wind scales poorly so as you get more hit points with levels it would take longer and longer to replenish them this way; second, only jerks would do that, that's boring, waiting around for many hours is boring, you might as well just sleep for 8 hours if that's an option and replenish everything; third, wandering monsters.

DuckTapeAl

Second Wind grants temp HP.

Magician

Not anymore

They said they've tried it and decided against it.

DuckTapeAl

Oh, must have been a recent change, then.

Magician

To recap: our abilities scale poorly and we know it, that's a feature; we've reinvented 5-minute work-day just now, amusing ain't it; the only reasonable solution offered: risk of something happening in the time you took to rest. Given as an afterthought.

They know it's a problem, just not a problem they care to fix. This puts me in mind of 13th Age, where many times while reading the rulebook I'd go "I remember this issue coming up in play, it's cool the designers clearly do, too, and fixed it easily."

doppelgreener

4:23 AM

I am beginning to think these guys are just struggling to get by and remain employed under the mass of an immense corporate machine. If they care, they can't fix stuff properly because they don't have the resources or don't want to make it look like things are going badly. Or they just flat-out don't care.

Magic does a bunch of playtesting (I don't know how much), but their existence is not under threat.

user61230

Until people cease synonymizing (on the whole) D&D with roleplaying, WotC is not going to be under stress.

doppelgreener

@Emrakul D&D 4e almost didn't happen, I heard.

user61230

Really? Why not?

doppelgreener

WotC is going to be under no stress, but the D&D line of products is.

user61230

Yeah, that's what I meant.

user61230

4:25 AM

I'm curious, since I haven't heard that before, how so?

doppelgreener

@Emrakul Hasbro has huge profit demands on its IP. What I heard was that D&D 4e was pitched as something that could actually be made into an MMO, and that's what saved it.

IP that doesn't produce enough revenue gets cut.

user61230

They must have satisfied demands, then.

user61230

Granted RPGs aren't a particularly in-demand market...

doppelgreener

Yeah, they must have.

Magician

Magic items in 5e preview.

2

Mentions attunement, but doesn't show an item that requires it (i think?)

Gauntlets of Ogre Power are a Thing. No, that's not enough. A Thing.

doppelgreener

4:32 AM

Wow what

Magician

They set your strength to 19. There's no downside. Considering stats go up to 20 and you have to choose between stat advances and feats, this seems like a no-brainer for anyone.

doppelgreener

Well, that helps with MAD at least. I wonder how that stacks with other stuff?

Magician

Forget MAD, why would I ever put more than 8 into Strength if I can start with these gauntlets?

Why wouldn't I curse the gods if I randomly find them after putting 18 into Strength?

So here's to magic items not having a significant impact on characters' capabilities.

doppelgreener

@Magician Maybe you have to choose between Gauntlets of Ogre Power and Vorpal Strangling Mitts.

Magician

That's a fine design decision, choosing between awesome things. In the highly competitive, iconic gauntlets slot.

Also, Vorpal and Strangling? A bit of an overkill.

doppelgreener

4:41 AM

Yes! Possibly a bit redundant too.

Magician

Or do you go to strangle someone and then they quickly start breathing, and as a bonus you get to keep their head?

At first I've read it as Vorpal Strangling Mists. Now there's a terrifying prospect.

doppelgreener

@Magician Well, it's a bit more efficient and time-saving than even that, but we'll just summarise it as they won't be breathing after you use the mitts.

@Magician Oo-er, remind me not to fight with a keyword mage.

(Suddenly the Appellomancer is on my mind...)

Magician

Apparently, that's the way such items worked in AD&D. I thought we've since learned that increasing stats through items is a terrible idea. No?

And all this in a game where the emphasis is on the stats by design. I just don't understand.

user61230

4:59 AM

I wonder if it's possible to create a dice system that has a dip in the median value.

user61230

It seems like an effective hacky way to make a story-centric system focused around spectacular successes and failures.

user61230

But I can't think of a good way to do it, short of weighted dice.

doppelgreener

30

Q: Is it possible to produce a bowl-shaped probability curve with dice rolls?

In D&D's basic D20 system, you roll one d20 and add in some modifiers, then compare the result to a target number. Each modifier effectively adds or removes a 5% chance of success with the roll. One of the problems I've found is that the game handles large gaps in modifiers poorly: if one player...

Grubermensch

OF COURSE THERE IS

I do not know why I was so surprised by the existence of that question

user61230

Welp. That answers that question. Time to go fiddle with probabilities.

doppelgreener

5:04 AM

most of these seem to involve mathematics (e.g. modulus) or "if this happens, pick these dice" though

BESW

@Emrakul I believe the majority of 4e's profits came from DDI subscriptions.

user61230

Now I'm trying to see if there's a game-convenient way to do it...

doppelgreener

and therein lies the issue

Magician

Roll two dice, white and black. Whichever's higher wins. Black is bad outcome, white is good. Adjust dice sizes based on skill and circumstance

Grubermensch

This is how Fiasco does it, yes?

Magician

5:06 AM

Fiasco doesn't use dice for in-game resolution, only for set-up.

user61230

@Magician I don't think that does what you think it does

user61230

Wait, that chart's wrong, one sec

Magician

I was confused for a while there :)

To clarify: the higher the roll, the more extreme the outcome.

So it won't be a curve (or a bowl) as such.

Grubermensch

@Magician I think, the end-game stuff does that though

user61230

@Magician There ya go.

Magician

5:08 AM

@Grubermensch Ah, yes. It's an odd bit of a rule.

user61230

That's what that does.

Magician

@Emrakul So you're more likely to get high results as your output than low results. The color of the die determines the outcome's nature, the value its strength.

user61230

I'm looking for something that creates extreme outcomes on both sides, though.

user61230

Which makes it a little trickier.

user61230

I still want the characters to do their average on average, but average results are boring.

Magician

5:09 AM

That's what black die winning would do. Just an idea, anyway.

Grubermensch

@Emrakul, this does create extremes on both sides

user61230

It makes the chance of rolling a 1 almost nothing

Grubermensch

@Emrakul you should think of the black die as negative numbers

and so your scale is from -20 to +20, not 1 to 20

Magician

Exactly. A better explanation than mine.

user61230

Hmm. I'm curious what that would look like. One min.

user61230

5:11 AM

AnyDice can be finnicky.

doppelgreener

@Magician what happens if they're both the same?

Magician

@JonathanHobbs Universe explodes!

doppelgreener

oh no

Magician

Or roll again. Or, I dunno, spend a fate point to add +2

Or even rule it in favor of the player, that's always nice.

But the universe then definitely explodes in case of a tie in PvP.

user61230

It's linear, which is a start, but it bothers me. Hmm.

Magician

5:15 AM

You can always add more dice to make a curve! Roll 2dX on both sides, pick the one highest value.

Grubermensch

@Emrakul I don't think it should be linear

Doesn't seem right

user61230

The probability of one die being greater than another is linear, which means that splitting it in two mirrors it.

doppelgreener

Out of curiosity I took a look at this: roll a black d6 and a white d6. black is negatives, white is positive. take white if it's at least as great as black, by absolute value.

# python 3:
black = range(-6, 0) # -6 to -1. the last number is not included.
white = range(1, 7) # 1 to 6.

results = {}

for b in black:
    for w in white:
        score = 0
        if abs(b) > abs(w):
            score = b
        else:
            score = w

        if score in results:
            results[score] += 1
        else:
            results[score] = 1

print(results)

Magician

Why are you rolling d7s?..

doppelgreener

I'm not, it's 1-6 on both

Grubermensch

5:18 AM

@Magician Computers are weird

Magician

Ah, magic Anydice arrays.

user61230

Python arrays :P

user61230

Doing that in AnyDice isn't fun

doppelgreener

last number doesn't get included. range(x, y) means "from and including x, up to but not including y"

Magician

Got it. Logical!

user61230

5:20 AM

Gods, AnyDice syntax is awful.

Grubermensch

@Emrakul EXPLODING DICE

That's how you do it

user61230

Exploding dice give infinitely long tails?

Grubermensch

It increases the probability at the top of the range

doppelgreener

axiscity.hexamon.net/users/isomage/rpgmath/explode zero-based exploding dice at the bottom

user61230

Here's the graph of the previous suggestion with 2d6 instead of 2d20

Magician

5:24 AM

What if it's 2d20 vs 2d20?

Not added up, just highest value

user61230

That makes this complicated. Gimme a min.

Grubermensch

You should probably look at cumulative probability functions not just the densities

user61230

I don't think AnyDice is designed to do this.

user61230

But I could be just be being an idiyit.

Grubermensch

It's definitely not designed to do this

But I think it can

user61230

5:30 AM

anydice.com/program/3ed4

user61230

I can't compare the values of two dice in a generic way

user61230

Comparisons have to be done with booleans

user61230

@BESW If you're looking for background music, have you heard any of the Homestuck albums?

Grubermensch

anydice.com/program/3ed5

doppelgreener

I had a thought I'm not sure how to test the probability of:

user61230

5:35 AM

Counting the number of explosions? @Gruber? (I'm just not sure what X : [explode 2d20] resolves to - is it a final value, or generic?)

Grubermensch

The trick is in the function parameters

doppelgreener

roll a black dice and a white dice. take the highest by absolute value. if they tie, reroll, and add dice.

Grubermensch

A:n forces A to be a number, not a die

user61230

Oh, you're right, that makes sense. It also fixes my program.

user61230

anydice.com/program/3ed6

user61230

5:37 AM

Both of these are funky-lookin' probability graphs.

user61230

@Magician I have yer graph for ya! prntscr.com/3vwyhc

user61230

Both of ours are a little skewed, though. They don't have zero medians.

Magician

@Emrakul Funky!

user61230

It gets even weirder if you mix wrong dice types

user61230

prntscr.com/3vwytl

doppelgreener

5:40 AM

So how's this rolling work?

(Here's your test: tell me how to do these rolls in plain language.)

user61230

Take two sets of dice, one white and one black. Roll them and take the higher result of the black and white dice.

user61230

If the black dice come out on top, make the result negative.

doppelgreener

What do I do if they're the same?

user61230

Well... see in the first graph where there's a slight error in the distribution?

user61230

That's what I'm trying to work out :P

doppelgreener

5:41 AM

Yeah. Do I prefer black?

user61230

Hmm?

doppelgreener

@Emrakul If they match, reroll.

@Emrakul oh, i mean: do i pick black if they match, and that leads to that skew?

user61230

I'm currently trying to work out what happens when they match

user61230

For convenience, I switched to 2d10 vs 2d10

user61230

prntscr.com/3vwzzr

Magician

5:46 AM

Now I remember where I got this from: Don't Rest Your Head.

user61230

These are really weird probability curves. I'm not sure they're useful.

Magician

It has 3 pools: Discipline, Exhaustion and Madness, made up of d6s. You add up all 1-3s as successes, but also check which pool has the highest value. You remove same values if you have to, until you find the one that dominates, which flavors the outcome.

Which is not at all what you requested, but that probably was the inspiration.

doppelgreener

@Emrakul try it out in a playtest

you have something to work with, now find out if it's fun

user61230

I don't have anyone to playtest with right now, though :/

user61230

Most of this is speculative? I'd have to actually create a system for this to work with.

user61230

5:54 AM

That's weird. This program isn't returning 1 or -1.

Magician

How would it? If both rolled 1, that's a draw.

user61230

Ahhhh. ahaha I'm tired

user61230

I'd playtest it with Fate using 1d4 and 1d4, but... well, this would result in hilarious probability curves.

user61230

Only a 10% combined chance of a +/- 1, and a 40% chance of a +/- 4

user61230

er, wait

user61230

5:59 AM

50% chance of a +/- 4

BESW

@Emrakul What manner of music is that?

user61230

@BESW It was music to go along with a webcomic. A lot of it was designed to be background music.

user61230

Sample A, Sample B, Sample C, Sample D

user61230

That's from a couple different volumes, but they each have a different feel/tone to them.

user61230

(I don't advise reading the webcomic.)

user61230

6:06 AM

Also, @BESW, have you heard of Two Steps From Hell/Audiomachine?

BESW

Sounds vaguely familiar.

user61230

They're both in the art of making soundtrack music.

BESW

I generally don't go looking for bgm without a specific use in mind, or I'd have five times as much as I do and never use a third of it.

user61230

Sample A, [Sam--Ah, yeah, that makes sense.

BESW

Right now I'm thinking about BGM for a FiM game.

user61230

6:09 AM

Hmm, I miiiiight be able to help? I don't know how much I'll be able to, but if you have an idea of what you're looking for, I can certainly try!

user61230

(I'll just throw this out there, because it's beautiful either way. The intro, primarily)

BESW

I'm still hoping for help designing the adventure too, but my rough concept is that it takes place in a region where ordinary Equestrians live near a group of (ponies? maybe some other creature) with a more Japanese-esque culture.

As always I avoid intelligible lyrics and sudden mood shifts in my BGM.

My BGM manifesto is that music should be environmental: evoking a sense of place rather than reflecting the current action.

user61230

Oh, anything sounding remotely Japanese is probably out of my scope. Sorry!

user61230

Yeah, that makes sense. A lot of TSFH/Audiomachine/Epic Score songs don't have sudden shifts, but that one does.

BESW

I might change my mind about the specific culture, but the whole adventure is about cultural friction points.

(Given how poorly humans usually deal with them, imagine how ponies will manage.)

user61230

6:17 AM

Ahhh, that makes sense.

user61230

Do you find that it disrupts gameplay when songs start and end?

BESW

(I'm basically re-skinning the example adventure provided in Princes' Kingdom.)

@Emrakul Only if it's a sudden mood shift.

doppelgreener

@BESW Did I get this wording right?

> Any way you can break the system, the NPCs can break it better. But they won't break it until you do.

BESW

If I've picked my songs well, they won't call attention to themselves but rather influence the table's environment.

doppelgreener

I never remember the wording you tend to use, and it's usually better (and broader).

(Full disclosure, I'm quoting it in this warlock answer)

user61230

6:19 AM

@BESW Do you have to stop narration to start music?

user61230

It seems hard to do, even with the music on-queue

BESW

18

A: What is the best way to prevent abuse of the gate spell?

Put it in your players' hands. I had a long-standing explicit arrangement with one of my groups: "Anything you can break, NPCs can break better. But they won't until you do." This put any potential "GM vs player" conflict firmly in the players' hands, gave them agency and responsibility, a...

@Emrakul That's one reason I keep my music keyed to settings rather than events. I set up a playlist and loop it, and only have to change it when we move to a significantly different location.

user61230

What do you do when the setting and event conflict?

user61230

For instance, music for a small bog village is playing, and someone decides it's a good idea to set fire to it.

BESW

Then there's cognitive dissonance.

user61230

6:22 AM

Hmm. Is that an issue?

BESW

It usually works well, giving the players a sense that something's out of place.

@Alex Hi!

user61230

Hmm, I may have to consider that.

user61230

That sounds interesting.

BESW

@Alex You'll need at least 20 rep on any one Stack Exchange site before you can type in chat rooms, but you're welcome to hang out until then.

user61230

How long do your playlists usually run?

BESW

6:28 AM

@Emrakul As long as I can find suitable songs. I'd love them to be four hours long, but they're usually more like an hour or an hour and a half. I'd rather repeat good songs than use bad songs. Since I try to choose songs that don't call attention to themselves, repetition isn't a major issue so long as the playlist is more than 45 minutes long.

And sometimes, on special occasions, I just have two or three songs--or even one--that I loop repeatedly.

Goood morning.

Greetings!

Hi!

user61230

Hello!

doppelgreener

@BESW Thanks :)

Magician

6:30 AM

@lisardggY You've slept through the usual doom & gloom & face & palming re: 5e, funky dice probabilities and now soundtracks.

user61230

@BESW That makes sense. I'm just thinking about how long it needs to be until players notice. But cool!

user61230

I may have to steal this idea.

user61230

If you don't mind.

lisardggY

@Magician Soundtracks are good.

BESW

@Emrakul Which idea?

user61230

6:30 AM

Soundtracks.

lisardggY

Although I don't tend to use them myself when GMing. I don't do immersive atmospheres much.

BESW

@Emrakul Fair enough.

lisardggY

Any new 5e information that caused the facepalming, or just the usual?

BESW

Also, check out video game soundtracks more than movie soundtracks. They tend to be more "of a piece" for various reasons.

Magician

@lisardggY Plenty! Cleric charsheet got previewed, followed by a sneak peek at magic items.

user61230

6:32 AM

Yeah, movie soundtracks could be very focused around the current moment. That makes sense.

lisardggY

@Magician *checks the starboard*. Oh, here's the cleric.

BESW

Video game soundtracks don't know how long you'll be in a certain area, or often exactly what you'll be doing, so they're designed to loop painlessly.

user61230

►

Magician

@lisardggY And here are magic items. See if you can spot the one that made me deploy this:

lisardggY

One thing I like when using soundtracks, especially if you're using songs instead of ambient tracks, is using cover versions.

It can instantly clue the players in that something is different, create a variation on an atmosphere.

user61230

6:35 AM

I love the Bastion soundtrack with a burning passion.

user61230

Although that may just be the association I have with that soundtrack in the game. That was a powerful game.

BESW

I do enjoy some of its songs (despite not having played the game) but most of it is a bit too high-strung and vocal for me to feel comfortable using at the table.

lisardggY

@Magician What, the return to generic +1 weapons and armor, after they had this whole spiel about how magic items should be rare and unique and interesting.

?

user61230

Hmm. Have you heard any of Superbrothers: Sword and Sworcery?

user61230

And yeah, I get that. Bastion's designed to be immersive in its own way, and I can see how it might not carry over cleanly.

Magician

6:38 AM

I'd use Bastion's soundtrack, but it's too recognizable. Just as LotR and PotC soundtracks are - as soon as they start playing, people go "ooh, I remember this!"

BESW

Aye, I do have to avoid music my players will recognise.

Luckily I play video games no one else does.

lisardggY

The cleric charsheet seems just what I expected, after the playtest packets - too many different things. There's the Features and Traits, and then there's the Personality Traits and bonds and flaws above, and then the "Other Proficiencies", which is a terrible name because it makes it feel like it's "not important". Things should either be important or not on the character sheet.

Magician

@lisardggY We knew weapons and armor go to +3. As boring as that is, it don't bother me much. No, it's the gauntlets of ogre power.

user61230

@BESW I'm curious, what soundtracks/games do you pull from most frequently?

BESW

Let's see, I still have my playlists from my 4e campaign.

In no particular order...

lisardggY

6:40 AM

@Magician It's a bit of a throwback to AD&D, where they gave you 18/00 strength, no more.

Magician

@lisardggY I ranted a bit about it, a couple of hours ago. Don't know if I'm overreacting, but it seems like a terrible idea, which sets a precedent for all other stats and negates the need to ever have Strength if starting with the Gauntlets is an option.

BESW

(Many of these are artists, not games/films). Cirque du Soleil, Loreena McKennitt, Carbon Maestro, Dark City ST, Ico ST, soundtracks from the Myst franchise (especially Riven and Exile), American Angels, NorthSound and Sounds of Nature, Alien ST, Batman vs Dracula ST, DAAU.

Oh! Assault on Butcher Bay ST recently made it into the mix.

user61230

Ah, yes. I was going to suggest Cirque du Soleil.

lisardggY

@Magician Unless the attunement thing makes the gauntlets less of a must-have.

user61230

I shall look these up!

BESW

6:45 AM

Some of them may be a little obscure (American Angels), or require picking and choosing (Loreena McKennitt).

user61230

Seeing as Cirque has 25 albums, are there any in particular you recommend? Ka was what I wanted to suggest.

Magician

@lisardggY From that one page, I'd say they don't require attunement. That's kind of an important thing worth mentioning in the item's description.

BESW

I've used Ka, Alegria, Zaia, and O most frequently/recently.

Magician

If they do require attunement, that's a serious opportunity cost and makes things slightly better. We'd have to compare them to other items requiring attunement to see if they're a good choice. I doubt much can beat suddenly getting 19 in Con (D&D loves its symmetry), though.

For a game which has stated that raw stats are very important and will be used throughout, in which max stat is 20 and most won't actually improve their stats taking feats instead, suddenly gaining 19 in a stat is HUGE.

lisardggY

@Magician I'm not sure there'll be symmetry there. In AD&D, for instance, there was no equivalent to these gauntlets for other ability scores.

user61230

6:47 AM

Can't seem to find the Dark City soundtrack.

user61230

I should listen to the rest of the Cirque soundtracks.

BESW

@JonathanHobbs Really simple common sense check on stuff like that LoS hack: "If my workaround for this rule was intended, would the rule still need to exist?"

In this case, no. If his workarounds were intended loopholes for the "closest enemy" rule on curses, then curses wouldn't have a "closest enemy" rule.

I think I'm gonna make that a separate answer.

user61230

Ow. All of O is balanced very sharply to the left ear.

BESW

Ow.

user61230

7:08 AM

Yeah, I've decided to at least try background music in games.

user61230

Thank you!

doppelgreener

@BESW Yeah, please do!

user61230

clickhole.com/article/…

doppelgreener

8:20 AM

4

Q: How does a Demon detect a Linchpin?

All God-Machine Infrastructure has a Linchpin. The Linchpin doesn't have to be tied by human logic to what the infrastructure does, thought there is often some symbolism or anti-logic to it. Some examples of infrastructure in the book: An underground facility has three obelisks above it: one h...

nwod-god-machine demon-the-descent

Previously the God Machine expansion sounded kinda cool, but now this God-Machine Infrastructure and Linchpin stuff has me fascinated.

BESW

9:11 AM

@Emrakul ...if that's a campaign pitch, I'm listening.

lisardggY

@BESW I like Clickhole and its tireless deconstruction of the Buzzfeed/Upworthy cliches.

Also, this specifically looks like Nightvale ate an Upworthy article.

BESW

9:41 AM

0

A: Can a Warlock Selectively Curse Anyone they can See?

This is obviously unintended. Any workaround that utterly invalidates a mechanic is probably unintended and should be treated with extreme caution. You say it yourself: if this is allowed, the proximity restriction completely disappears and you can curse whomever you feel like You're propo...

lisardggY

How much war could a warlock lock if a warlock could lock war.

BESW

About 27 woodchucks worth.

doppelgreener

9:58 AM

@BESW Brilliant work!!

BESW

@JonathanHobbs Is that what you were hoping for?

doppelgreener

I was hoping for a very well reasoned response to the confusion beneath the question and you delivered.

I couldn't pinpoint it myself. I'm glad you could.

BESW

10:23 AM

@JonathanHobbs I've had the conversation often enough.

Apr 9 at 2:12, by BESW

D&D and its ilk belong to a subset of RPGs with the general philosophy that you should figure out what stats a thing has independent of its impact on the storytelling. This is intended to create "realism" and be "impartial" (your mileage may vary), but it also imposes stringent limits on what you can do without disrupting the "balance."

doppelgreener

Yes true enough

I might understand this stuff as deeply if I could get more than a few sessions of any given rpg done

Our group has scheduling challenges, and the.mission structure is doing the opposite of what I wanted: individual missions are becoming important to the players involved in them and they don't want to miss them. The point was to enable them to be missed!

And I don't really want them to be missed either. Argh!

Our schedules lining up is like the alignment of the planets. Rare, amazing, and an auspicious sign of magic to come.

2

albeit not featured in as many movie plots

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