TRPG General Chat

BESW

00:36

@Emrakul Hey.

How's the Fifth Age?

user61230

00:57

Currently laying untended to beneath the altar of Robert Browning!

user61230

How art thou, @BESW?

BESW

Doing okay. Exploring the limits of Storium, thinking about non-dichotomous action outcomes in RPGs and their connection to society's assumptions about truth, and I saw a magic show this weekend!

user61230

Very diverse weekend, eh?

user61230

Sounds interesting, though!

user61230

I'm curious what your thoughts are on non-dichotomous actions?

BESW

01:01

Confused.

Basically, I'm looking at how most RPGs present action resolution and conflict as pass/fail.

There are winners and losers in conflicts, and even in a game like Fate you're rolling to see if you succeed at an action or if you fail; its "grey area" is about tangential fallout from the action, with the core "succeed or fail" dichotomy still very much present.

This is one reason I'm so interested in designing a pony game; it seems like a great context to explore these ideas.

user61230

In a general sense, this models most actions in society.

user61230

That's fair!

user61230

I'm thinking, though, that very often it is "did you or did you not do the thing?"

BESW

I want a system where a conflict doesn't have to have winners and losers.

Where the benefit of effort isn't fundamentally about whether you achieved the goal, but about the benefit of the trying itself.

user61230

Hmm... is this more with respect to versus-conflicts or single-person tests?

BESW

01:08

Well, that's another thing; I kinda want to deconstruct "versus" type conflicts and see if I can replace them with something which includes the idea that apparently opposing sides can find common ground.

This is where that whole "nature of truth" thing comes into play.

A lot of the current world view is based on the idea that something is either true or false. That's the fundamental dichotomy I'm trying to examine and find alternatives to: us vs them, pick a side, we can't both be right.

user61230

I'm envisioning two RPGs: one which relies on the assumption that there is an absolute truth to every situation/conflict, and one for which there is never an underlying truth

BESW

I believe that truth is often found through the clash of differences: that two things which appear to be incompatible are, in fact, two different ways of seeing the same thing. By bringing them together, we learn more about the nature of the thing than we ever could by choosing one and ignoring the other.

I want a system where that is an option in conflict. Not an easy one, for sure, but it should be there.

Fate's conflict system still resolves with one side getting what they want and the other side not. I want a third resolution option.

(And a fourth where nobody wins.)

These aren't very structured ideas yet; I'm doing a lot of reading and thinking in other areas which is sparking this, and translating it into RPG terms is a muddy process.

(There's this essay about the underlying philosophy of graphic design...)

user61230

Hmm... could that fundamentally be expressed as a [resolve differences] mechanic?

BESW

That seems like a good direction, yes.

One thing I'd like to incorporate--maybe with a friendlier version of CoC's skill-up system--is the idea that success and failure are irrelephant to advancement.

Kind of like how Roll For Shoes gives XP for rolling 1s.

user61230

Or Burning Wheel's - only the difficulty of what you've done matters to how much you learn.

user61230

01:21

Anyone can legitimately attempt something Challenging, even if they have no help or assistance, and they will gain a Challenging test for it, even if they fail.

user61230

(The three tiers being Routine, Difficult, and Challenging)

BESW

Aye, something like that.

user61230

I like it. I'm not sure how often it would be used, though.

user61230

The majority of tests in a system really are pass/fail.

BESW

Mm. Part of the idea is to challenge that and find other kinds of challenges, other kinds of stories.

user61230

01:45

It might work better with an ethically-aligned story

BESW

I'm thinking about contexts where you don't want to have winners and losers.

So.... yes, positive ethics.

That's one reason I'm champing at the bit to play Princes' Kingdom. It looks relephant to my interests and I want to see how it plays out.

user61230

Haven't heard of that one!

BESW

Have you heard of Dogs in the Vineyard?

user61230

I'm curious, what about it appeals to you?

user61230

Yeah, that one I've heard of.

BESW

01:52

Princes' Kingdom uses a slightly simplified version of DitV's mechanics, and has a totally revised setting so that it explores the same concepts but in a much less problematic context.

(Among other things, there are no Fantasy Mormons, and the PCs' authority is no longer divine.)

In terms of story structure it's similar to Pilgrims of the Flying Temple: both are about young people who travel through a diverse setting to solve the problems of isolated communities.

But DitV and PK are explicitly about exploring the stakes of the situations and the lengths you'll go.

user61230

Hmm.

BESW

The core conceit of the mechanic is that the players control the stakes, but it's a trade-off.

user61230

I like that from a theoretical perspective, but exploring stakes for its own sake doesn't seem like an ultimately productive goal for interesting stories.

user61230

Still, it's of theoretical interest!

BESW

Well.

If you don't have the mechanical leverage to get what you want with words, you can escalate from conversation to physical conflict and get more mechanical leverage--but anything bad which happens during the conflict will, of course, be more severe.

So the conflicts are about what you'll risk and how far you'll go, and when you'll back off.

The GM designs a community with at least one problem. Problems are broadly defined (in escalating order) as conceit and injustice, disobedience and outlaws, unrest and loss of liberty, false leaders and rebellion, and war and killing. It's the princes' job to find solutions to the problem(s).

Naturally, some people on the island will resist the princes, and others will have their own agendas they want the princes to advance. How and where do you stand firm, or bargain, or concede, or trade favours, to bring peace back to the island? What compromises might the princes find acceptable?

Both DitV and PK are explicitly designed as systems for what PK calls "a moral testing ground."

> In real life, I’ve never had to make a really hard decision such as ‘If I see someone hit their child, what should I do?’ That’s a really hard question, and I don’t want to have to answer it. But by asking that question in a fictional context and having that extra filter of ‘playing a character,’ I can answer this type of question and know the answer ahead of time.

I don't know if I want my system to be as explicit as that, but these are issues I want it to be able to handle with grace and style.

doppelgreener

02:17

I just noticed something kinda nice. The blank space on the right is where it usually says how many have been earned. In this case... none. No question on RPG.SE has ever been a tumbleweed.

5

BESW

Yup.

doppelgreener

I like this SE a lot. \o/

BESW

BTW, are you planning to mop up the last challenge in our Atlantean Destiny scene?

doppelgreener

@BESW !! Yes! Or, rather, I plan to visit and actually post. I've been pretty busy recently and entirely forgot about that scene until yesterday. @_@

The last challenge is about helping to motivate crew members. As it is, I have no idea if Fritjof will make things better or worse, haha.

BESW

I like that Trogdor left it uncertain.

user61230

02:37

@BESW I think you're onto something with this, but it still sounds a little bit vague to me - which just sounds like how it is right now.

user61230

But it sounds like it could definitely refine down into something effective and useful!

user61230

Let me know if you'd like to bounce ideas around sometime! I apologize; I've been a bit distracted what with work and finals, but soonish.

BESW

Thanks. I really need a bigger group to do a lot of play in various systems.

Theory can only go so far.

Metool

03:44

[wiggle]

BESW

03:54

[squirm]

Magician

04:28

Morning!

doppelgreener

[squiggle]

Magician

[squamous rugosity]

Magician

05:00

@JonathanHobbs beat me to it with the comment :)

doppelgreener

@Magician on the damage type thing?

Magician

Yeah

doppelgreener

that's going to be fun, because then we can argue whether "untyped" counts as a type for the purpose of changing the damage type. ;)

Magician

I started to write that it was two questions, then saw your comment. I started to write about the second question having been answered in his own link, then saw your second comment.

@JonathanHobbs I highly suspect there's something dodgy there, as I don't recall being able to change incoming damage types. That's trivial to cheese.

doppelgreener

@Magician im 2fast

@Magician I'd be very interested to see what it was!

pet

05:30

ok, i guess chat works better, since i cant sleep anyway

unless everyone sleeping

Metool

Hello.

Magician

Hi!

pet

or i just woke u up

:)

there is the following taught going through my mind right now

if i want my character to jump of the cliff, would he do it, of do i have to make a sanity roll first?

Magician

@pet That really depends on the game. In a heroic fantasy a la D&D, doing insane things like that is the norm. In a more realistic game, it may require narrative justification or a roll.

pet

ok, so for dnd-4e?

many players are nuts..

yes that could make sense

Magician

05:38

I'd say it's perfectly fine for characters in 4e to be big damn heroes and jump off the cliff while on fire, swinging their axe at the rising dragon.

pet

^^

i never played something narrative

you have less freedom there, right?

Magician

@pet In a narrative game, you have less freedom only in the sense that the story has to make sense. It should make sense in any game, but it's the important part in a narrative one. In 4e, which is very gamist, you make the story fit the rules. But in a narrative game, rules help you build the story up.

Narrative games (like Fate) generally offer much more freedom. You can do more than just use one of your listed powers. While that's true for any game, narrative games support that freedom, while others at best don't get in your way.

pet

i am still fairly young player/dm, probably need more experience before trying it,

doppelgreener

@pet sanity rolls do not exist in D&D 4e

sanity is not a skill nor mechanical feature

pet

ok, but the luck attribute exists right?

doppelgreener

05:45

no

pet

goh, that this must have been part of some house-rules, i like it when luck is purely based on the dice

doppelgreener

D&D 4e has no concept of luck either. You have modifiers to the things you can do, which abstract away the idea that you could either be very skilled or very lucky, but there's no luck attribute.

You could, for instance, play a character who is completely amazing at everything they do, except the whole time they have no idea what they're doing and it's just total serendipity.

but there's no mechanical thing to model that

Magician

@pet I'd say that's a misconception. You don't need more experience running gamist games to run a narrative one. You do need experience running games, but that's something you will gain either way. If you're interested, give it a try. It's different.

pet

when i was curious, about penn&paper rpg's, i had difficulties finding a group i could join,

i had essentially to create my own group,

takes time to become good at dm'ing

id i dont know things, i make a decision, and later look it up, i do not want to interrupt the game each time

okies, when i get an opportunity, i will try narrative :)

lisardggY

G'morning.

doppelgreener

06:03

Good morning :D

@pet that's a good way to handle it

lisardggY

Nearby construction has contaminated the building's water pipes. No water. No water means no coffee. No coffee is the first sign of the apocalypse, or so I'd heard.

doppelgreener

(ideally, you then share what you learned and what probably should've happened and continue under the new understanding of what should happen)

@lisardggY No good coffee shops around?

lisardggY

@pet That's exactly the right way to handle that. Every time we run into a rules issue, we declare PSD (Post Session Discussion), accept the GM's ruling, and check after the session's over.

@JonathanHobbs Decent one down on the fifth floor lobby, but I'm guessing they'll have water problems too.

And the next nearest is a gas station with what I'm only guessing is horrendous coffee, 5 minutes walk away.

Magician

Perhaps you could get a canister of water from the gas station, and exchange it for decent coffee at the coffee shop? Barter economies arise in post-apocalypse.

lisardggY

Good thing I had some coffee before coming in.

@JonathanHobbs No tumbleweed badge makes sense on small and mid-size SE sites. There isn't enough traffic to drown out the questions. On SO you occasionally need to consider aggressively mistagging your questions if you're in a niche field.

doppelgreener

06:09

@Magician Sounds like a good plan!

lisardggY

@Magician I think I saw someone downstairs with a little yellow exclamation mark over his head. I'll go click on him, maybe he'll give me a quest that will start a quest-chain that will end with the water supply being restored.

doppelgreener

@Magician I've learned that barter economies (as we envision them) really are definitely only post-apocalypse.

In more ancient times, when people might often not exchange coins and instead traded in goods and services, there was still a currency. People wouldn't just exchange five melons for a duck because that's a fair trade, they exchanged five melons for a duck because it was understood the duck was worth 40 sestertii, and the melons were worth 9 sestertii, and the trade was near enough the mark to be fair (even if it favoured the guy being given the melons).

lisardggY

@JonathanHobbs Are you trolling other Jonathans on Meta.SE?

doppelgreener

@lisardggY I am totally trolling. I love how when someone forgets to do that newline properly, the sign-off sounds like they're thanking somebody for who knows what.

@lisardggY And yeah. It does make total sense. But I love that we're at a size where every question gets plenty of attention.

(A healthy amount of attention, I should say, because too much is possible.)

lisardggY

@JonathanHobbs Also a common occurrence when people forget punctuation, leading the the perennial "Fucking-A, dude!" mishaps.

SciFi.SE, interestingly enough, has 80 Tumbleweed badges. I don't know exactly how much bigger they are than us.

doppelgreener

06:25

@lisardggY haha, it took me a moment to figure out what you meant

lisardggY

Most tumblweeds on scifi.se are badly-titled story-ID questions.

BESW

07:13

@pet Hi!

Zachiel

(More FAE has been had)

BESW

Ooer. Thoughts?

Zachiel

Mmmh it had problems modeling the Hulk. But maybe it was the GM's fault.

Player: "But I mean, if I'm the Hulk I should be able to kill those puny soldiers with ease"

GM: you have an aspect you can tag for a +2, but no, you can't do it automatically

Player conclusion: this game is bad at modeling superheroes

(corollary: Generic system my ***)

doppelgreener

Fate doesn't always involve handling things in a straightforward manner. An attack narratively is not always an attack mechanically. Famously, On Fire! can be modelled as an aspect or a character - or something else, I think.

Also, really, the Hulk should have +10 to Forceful or something, and no refresh because it's spent all on stunts to get extra +X to forceful and multiple attacks and stuff.

at least, that's one way to handle it.

I would love to stay and explore alternate ways to model the Hulk, but I have to go meet a friend. Tally ho!

BESW

07:29

Mmm. I'd model the Hulk a little differently, but the issue with the soldiers is that the Hulk's ability to kill them is not connected to his strength, but to his story.

Magician

Having not played Fate yet, but read a lot of discussions, I'd say Hulk has an aspect of The Strongest One There Is, which allows him to simply say he smashes puny soldiers.

BESW

If they're faceless mooks for him to be a monster at, then it should be pretty trivial--maybe a challenge rather than a conflict.

I like this build:

> High Concept: Green Goliath
> Trouble: Don’t Make Me Angry
> Sarcastic Genius
> Strongest One There Is
> Man or Monster?

> Good (+3) Forceful
> Fair (+2) Flashy, Quick
> Average (+1) Clever, Sneaky
> Mediocre (+0) Careful

> Hulk Smash! Gain Weapon: 2 when you attack with your fists.
> Rage-Fueled Might. When you create an Angry-type of advantage, you gain an additional invocation of it.

(Puny Banner removed because it was for Core, not FAE.)

Magician

Neat.

Inbar Rose

Morning.

BESW

One thing is, the Hulk is not a precision weapon: what he hits usually stays hit, but it's the what-he-hits bit which is hard to predict.

Magician

07:33

Correct me if I'm wrong, though. Unless there's a reason Hulk can't just declare he smashes puny humans, he can, right? And it's the Strongest One There Is aspect which enables this declaration.

BESW

@Magician Yes, that should be do-able. It'd cost him a Fate point to do it, and the GM could decline by instead giving him a Fate point.

But if the puny soldiers came with an aspect like Hulkbuster Units, that probably makes the declaration impossible.

lisardggY

@BESW Which sounds like a fantastic narrative opportunity for the GM to find a reason why the mooks are more than they seem.

BESW

Until Hulk removes their Hulkbuster Units aspect, they need to be engaged at a more complicated level than a declaration of victory.

Zachiel

@BESW ooooh right

BESW

And I would also like to offer this:

A scene in which Hulk and Banner are effectively in combat with each other for control, and the consequences of Banner failing are the deaths of puny soldiers.

This re-frames the scene from "will Hulk defeat the puny soldiers?" (yawn, boring, move on) to "will Hulk be a monster?" (oooh, [popcorn]).

Because honestly, when the Hulk encounters puny soldiers, they usually aren't the focus of the scene; they're the collateral damage.

lisardggY

07:43

@Zachiel In short, it seems that the GM was trying to run the battle as a tactical, rather than narrative scenario. It's exactly what I did on my first (and so far only) attempts to run Fate. It's natural.

BESW

I have no idea whether this is part of your situation, but your GM might be having trouble thinking in terms of "what kind of struggle does the Hulk have?" and is defaulting to "throw lots of puny soldiers at him."

@lisardggY Jinx.

Inbar Rose

[eats popcorn] :)

lisardggY

It's one thing talking here about framing a scene around a narrative, another doing so in real time during a game, when all my instincts are trained to think "simulate! simulate!"

BESW

@lisardggY Yes, this.

lisardggY

My instinct is to think "What do I do now", rather than "what happens now".

BESW

07:45

My saving grace is probably having spent several months using 4e skill challenges in increasingly abstract scenarios before trying Fate--also spending a lot of time in this chat with @SimonGill.

Zachiel

@BESW Starting with the premise that the character was just inspired by hulk (I get big and green when I get angry), so there aren't the usual Hulk story implications: we were investigating because the federals asked us and this guy wanted to see the video records. They told him there was nothing to see (maybe an attempt to say "this is not important") but he didn't trust them. The building where the recordings were was guarded and he had no pass...

...the "hulk" told them he needed no pass (murderhobo mentality?) and they were ready to shoot him.

lisardggY

@Zachiel That's a great framing for a scene. Armed guards preventing access, and you getting angry, and thus big and green. Now, this scene can be resolved in several ways. One involves a bunch of guards splattered on the walls and you inside. Another outcome might be guys with tactical gear pinning you to the ground and tossing you out. Either can be an outcome, but the choice of which happens isn't based on a fine-grained tactical "I try to hit them, let's see if I succeed" roll.

Zachiel

Yeah, but the player felt he should get an auto-success, because he has hulk-level strenght. The guy with him stopped him to prevent collateral damage and phoned me so I could get a pass from the government (we were an informal squad where I basically was Cpt. America)

(and everyone else had their problem be "some LG guild wants me dead", be it the CIA, the Army or Christianity)

lisardggY

@Zachiel He wanted an auto-success because the scene had been framed - either explicitly or around the table or just in his head, as a contest of strength. The moment the guy with him attempted to calm him down and find a different way in, it became a more complicated scenario, not a straight-up show-down.

(Again, I'm speaking from my theoretical high-horse. I'm pretty sure it'll take me a while to get to the point where I'll be able to make these calls in real-time)

BESW

If it was a conflict, it probably could have been framed more like a Superman conflict: Hulk's failure and consequences are complications about the mission like "Smashed tapes."

Zachiel

07:59

@BESW good one

Inbar Rose

If he wants "auto success" he can use a Fate point.

Otherwise a roll is probably going to result in success anyway.

Especially when you can use a FP to get +2 or reroll anyway

But, Fate also has another lesson here. You don't always need to roll the dice, if failing isn't interesting.

BESW

HULK CONFLICTS BORING UNLESS MORE THAN SMASH AT STAKE.

@Zachiel Reframing consequences as collateral damage is a handy "trick" to keep in mind any time you're dealing with "invincible" characters.

But it's hard to use in a murderhobo context where only what happens to your character matters; the group needs to concerned about the collateral damage in order for it to still "hurt."

That's why "Smashed tapes" seems useful: it complicates the group's broader goal.

Inbar Rose

08:22

"Succeed at a cost"

BESW

Aye.

It could also have been modelled as a single Overcome roll. Success = SMASH. Failure = SMASH at cost.

Inbar Rose

You can pay for success with a cost, it's the same as preventing physical stress by "paying a cost"

"Instead of getting a point of physical stress - the getaway car you were driving overturns, and now you need to find another way out"

BESW

"Success at cost" is one of the best ways to model the Hulk: he always wins, but it's not always a victory.

Inbar Rose

Which we have all seen in movies a million times, bad guys shoot at the good guys car, instead of killing him, the car crashes, he comes out without a scratch.

BESW

Both challenges and contests use Overcome rolls as their primary mechanic, so I'd use those more often than conflicts with a Hulk character.

lisardggY

08:25

I'm very glad of these discussions here, not specifically because of Fate, but because they help me refine, in my mind, some problems I have with simulationist and D&D-like systems.

Inbar Rose

:)

lisardggY

I can see it every time I tell people I enjoy rolling natural 1's in D&D.

Because my enjoyment doesn't always match what the ruleset defines as a "success".

Inbar Rose

One other thing that is oft overlooked. Is the "getting taken out" mechanic for filling up on stress.. "invincible characters" don't die. They just.. "get taken out" that could mean the HULK get's trapped under a fallen building, or he runs away.. or he somehow stops being angry and becomes puny banner....

BESW

@lisardggY HULK THINK FAILURE BUILD CHARACTER, PROVIDE ENTERTAINMENT. WINNERS BORING.

Inbar Rose

haha! :)

2 errors though.

lisardggY

08:27

A session where all my characters were 100% successful in the endeavours, which the mechanics would describe a success, wouldn't necessarily be what I want to play. So I'm in a situation where there's inherent tension between the definition of success for the narrative and gamist aspects of the very same game.

Inbar Rose

HULK != think, and "provide" is to much of a complex word, "make" would be better :P

BESW

@InbarRose HULK THINK PUNY HUMAN FORGETS HULK IS SCIENTIST.

lisardggY

HULK THINK!

Inbar Rose

Hulk is just a modern version of Mr. Hyde.

BESW

HULK SAD THAT MODERN FILM FRANCHISE FLATTEN HULK SO MUCH. HULK PREFER AVENGERS ASSEMBLE PORTRAYAL. GIVES HULK MORE DEPTH.

(In all seriousness, the best non-Bixby version of the Hulk is the one where he's no longer able to shift between his two forms, and is instead stuck as an amalgamation of the two.)

lisardggY

08:43

Well, the Hulk movie wasn't very good.

BESW

Neither of them.

(I haven't seen the older Bixby films, but I understand they were spotty, though the final is apparently worth watching. But Bixby Hulk is a totally different thing anyway.)

lisardggY

Finally saw Thor 2 the other day.

Also, not a good film.

I've seen this problem way to often in big spectacle films lately. The protagonists lack agency. They just react to things that happen. The only ones that actively care about anything and do anything about it are the bad guys.

Though in Thor 2, even the bad guys were terrible.

BESW

Yeah, they're still working a lot of the bugs out of some of the franchise.

lisardggY

Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. has descended nicely into paranoia.

Inbar Rose

:)

BESW

08:49

But--well, I was entertained by both Thor 2 and Hulk 2. They were shiny and had some good lines and occasionally stellar acting.

They weren't excellent films, but I popcorned happily and that was enough for them to justify their existence to me.

lisardggY

I didn't enjoy it much. It just felt like bunch of stuff happening, rather than a coherent plot. There wasn't a narrative climax as much as just a bigger fight scene with more collateral damage.

BESW

Absolutely.

lisardggY

09:30

Only two more upvotes until my Captain America answer slips into my Top 5 Answers on SciFi.se. Whoo.

Also, it seems that yesterday I had hit my rep cap on my answer on Cap.

lisardggY

09:40

I'm overly annoyed by people who write something like "The site says I don't have enough rep to comment, so I'm posting this as an answer instead".

It's bad enough to bypass an existing limitation, but publicly scoffing at the rules that other people abide by is just disrespectful.

BESW

in The Frying Pan, 1 hour ago, by Preston Fitzgerald

But we are all supposed to be good little stewards of somebody else's commercial success. Didn't you know?

lisardggY

@BESW I've seen that sentiment before, too. I understand it, up to a point. Someone is making money off of our content. But this ignores the fact that someone is spending money for our content, too.

BESW

I can see the argument for disrespecting the parts of the site's structure with which one disagrees. I don't agree with it, but I can understand it

GMNoob

owning my own bag of holding is so nice.

lisardggY

Also, random trivia: Colonel Sanders really was a colonel, though not in any army, but in the Kentucky Colonels, an honorary order, membership in which is bestowed by the Governor of Kentucky.

Metool

09:49

@GMNoob Why's that?

GMNoob

It just is. Lots of space, and very nerdy

lisardggY

Oh, cool. I saw that over on ThinkGeek.

GMNoob

My friend said I should have gotten more than one and sell them at icon

lisardggY

They just might sell.

They're a bit too big for me, I'm afraid. I don't go for laptops bigger than 13".

GMNoob

That was the funny part about getting my bag. 3 people tried to put the bag in their stuff when visiting from the states, and just couldn't get it to fit. But I finally got it when someone decided to use it as one of their suitcases and put other bags inside of it. :P

lisardggY

10:02

My bag is actually falling apart, and I don't think I can sew it up this time. Disintegrating. I need to start looking for good messenger bags, hopefully of the geeky variety.

Unfortunately many sites assume that geeks always want a gargantuan back for a 17" laptop. :)

fashionablygeek.com/category/bags

Metool

Why would you want a case that doesn't let you take out your machine?

lisardggY

@Metool Who, me?

Inbar Rose

10:45

@lisardggY In the Center is a great store with some cool bags. (forgot the name)

lisardggY

@InbarRose Very few messenger bags built for <15" laptops. I scoured for them a few years ago.

Inbar Rose

@lisardggY Okay, its "לה בורסה" in "גן העיר" Not the center.

They have cool bags.

Hmm, Surprised Hebrew works in the chat.

lisardggY

@InbarRose I'll check it out. I'm at that mall for baby stuff occasionally anyway.

@InbarRose It's 2014. I'm surprised whenever something doesn't support Hebrew anymore.

Inbar Rose

Good Luck :)

Haha.

lisardggY

Maybe it's because I've been spoiled by using Windows, which pretty much has had the language thing solved by 2000 or so.

GMNoob

10:53

@lisardggY That's cause windows 2000 was developed in Israel :P

well NT, which 2000 was based on , I think

lisardggY

@GMNoob NT4 was as well, but it still had Unicode issues. :)

Zachiel

11:40

Con debriefing: done. We need to learn how to cook a better pasta, apparently.

Or, in the words of one guy: "I didn't believe it was possible to cook pasta for 30 people and not overcook it. But then I've been at other conventions and I discovered it's totally possible!" XD

> Optimist: the glass is half full.

> Pessimist: the glass is half empty.

> Nerd: I drink from the glass. What happens?

BESW

Engineer: the glass is twice the size it needs to be.

Pedant: technically the glass is completely full of a water/air mixture.

Aaron

11:58

Good morning

lisardggY

Good morning to you to, my good sir!

Aaron

7

Q: Playing a blinded character in low levels

We have just started a game and are at low levels (I am 2 currently). My character was blinded by a bad save and he is a magus. In low levels is there anyway to play a blinded character who is not useless in combat and out of combat? In our game we use the crit card system where we draw cards wh...

pathfinder

Anyone think they can provide a better answer before I accept one of these?

Zachiel

@Aaron Nay. My idea was to get blind sight and have allies tell you the square. Not that great

doppelgreener

@Aaron you only asked it 2 days ago, you can take more time than that before accepting something

including waiting until you've actually playtested it and figured out whether it sucks or not, by which time you might've gotten a better answer

observe

18

Q: In Which we add Loots to Fate Core

Loot is a pretty fun part of some RPGs. Not the math-tuning loot that keeps characters’ weapons and armor at the required values, but the remarkable and empowering loot that lets them do new things they were not capable of before. Fate… doesn’t really do loot, but I’d like to introduce this the ...

magic-items fate-core

better portion of a year old; no accepted answer yet because i haven't playtested anything, 0 cares given by anyone really

or at least not visibly

Aaron

12:14

Ah. I have been following the pattern of answering after a couple days if there is a good answer. This one is a little different from my other questions though as the others were hard answers with a rules backing.

doppelgreener

ah yeah. you shouldn't feel any need to do it just 'cause time has passed.

if you don't feel an answer is there yet that you want to accept, by all means, don't accept an answer yet.

it's p. easy when it's a rules question, too, and at some point i'll try out the loots thing and accept an answer there depending on what works out ^

Though, my problem in that question is that all of the answers are awesome and sound like they would all work amazingly well in their own rights D:

BESW

"Release the mind-controlled squid!"

[adds to List Of Villainous Phrases]

doppelgreener

haha!

and then there's this one, where after playing the system some more I'm beginning to understand what SSD was saying.

Aaron

My Mother has taught my Niece, who is 2ish to say "Release the baby" when she wants down. I think they got it from the Croods movie.

doppelgreener

@Aaron hahaha!

Specifically, that question + playing Fate in general has taught me two things:

I've realised that if someone does roll a legendary result, it's probably far more rewarding to give it deeply impactful narrative consequence than have the mechanical points do more things to other mechanical things (like just making someone take a consequence or tick off more stress boxes).

That and I'm learning that Fate being narrative-first means the mechanics will not give me guidance on how to use them, unlike a mechanical game like D&D, where I always know within a limited range of options what can or should happen next.

Fate's about a story, where mechanics are tools to help out, and not an engine running things.

Aaron

12:39

What category would hybrid animals go into? Abyssal, Vermin? Or would it depend on the combined creatures in question?

doppelgreener

@Aaron Both! All of them. There's abhorrent elementals, I think.

Or whatever the word for Far Realm things is.

BESW

@Aaron What system, and what made them?

Aaron

@BESW Pathfinder. Aaaand. I am going to say a crazy wizard made them but now they breed naturally in their area.

doppelgreener

oh, right, not 4e then.

Aaron

@JonathanHobbs Yes. I currently do not play 4E. I don't even have any of the rules.

BESW

12:41

So, 4e cares about origins. 3.5 (and probably PF) is more concerned with what they look like and how they behave.

I dunno PF, but for 3.5: if both the original creatures were of the same type, the result is either the same type or a Magical Beast.

Aaron

@BESW Oh that is why you asked. I thought you were just curious :p

@BESW It's a spider wolf

GMNoob

@InbarRose I just tried Salam Bombay, quiet tastey, though I was sad they didn't have nan bread

BESW

@Aaron Sounds like a magical beast to me.

Zachiel

@JonathanHobbs aaand that's the big problem for me when DMing different games.

Aaron

docs.google.com/document/d/…

I am using the pic that was posted in chat and stating it for them because I am bored.

BESW

12:44

But look at the rules for each creature type, because they have mechanical differences in their abilities.

doppelgreener

@Aaron That picture is impressively grotesque.

Aaron

@BESW Will do. (Thanks I wouldn't have thought of that.)

doppelgreener

@Zachiel Sounds like a handful, haha.

BESW

Spider Wolf, Spider Wolf/ Does whatever a-- Oh, glorf what is that thing?! [huorf] Run while you can! RUN!

4

lisardggY

I like hybrid monsters. I always come back to the Book of Ratings post:

> Owlbear
It's this big, owlish, bearish thing. Big deal. I can play that game too. "Watch out for the hawklion! Beware the vulturetiger! Don't worry too much about the sparrowspaniel!"

webcache.googleusercontent.com/…

(Google cache link. Site currently down)

BESW

12:47

Not to be confused with the spanielsaurus, seen on the far right:

doppelgreener

> Gelatinous Cube: [...] It's genetically adapted to graph paper, for God's sake! Plus it conveniently fails to either digest or excrete metal, giving an adventurers a reason to kill it and scoop coins from its corpse. It's like some sort of living, deadly, mall fountain.

lisardggY

> It has the power to confuse onlookers, which is a power more D&D monsters should have. "So this is, what? A perfectly round bird with five legs? I don't get it. What kind of monster is OW MY HIT POINTS!"

2

doppelgreener

I am now picturing a gelatinous cube that has killed and absorbed so many adventurers over its time that there is more metal than gelatinous cube, and nobody even recognises it.

lisardggY

@JonathanHobbs Blinged out and fabulous.

GMNoob

The history behind those monsters are fascinating

BESW

12:50

42

Q: What's the inspiration for the owlbear?

The standard explanation for the owlbear in-universe is "A Wizard Did It." Which is fine, as far as it goes, because the trope of "madman tinkering with bizarre mutations" is part of our speculative fiction ethos. But what fractured mind actually came up with putting together the owl and the bea...

dungeons-and-dragons monsters history-of-gaming

doppelgreener

@lisardggY Oh, right. Yes, it would probably also have dozens of rings, amulets, crowns and shiny mithril armor suits dangling from the various axes and spears protruding from its body. (Its body merely being the goop holding all the weapons together.)

BESW

I will call it... the Clamorous Cube.

lisardggY

More D&D-related Ratings in the archived copy of the Books of Ratings.. Search for "D&D", though most of it is good.

BESW

Because it's gotta go jingle-jangle-clank when it moves.

GMNoob

@BESW The toys were tracked down, and came from a Japanese TV show like the Power rangers

doppelgreener

12:53

@BESW That's a lovely name for it.

BESW

@GMNoob Editing that into the answer would be great.

lisardggY

> The displacer beast is an excellent example of synergy; a panther with squid parts is considerably more intimidating than a squid strapped to a panther.

GMNoob

@BESW I'm trying to find where I saw that.

doppelgreener

@lisardggY hahaha!

Inbar Rose

@GMNoob Haha! Awesome! I ate there today as well.

We just moved offices, I am now like 1 minute away. Just on Lilenblum.

doppelgreener

13:04

I have just now finally opened a Google doc titled Book of Monsters, for... well, those, and related ideas. So that I don't forget them.

GMNoob

Woo found it... Ultraman!

diterlizzi.com/home/owlbears-rust-monsters-and-bulettes-oh-my

doppelgreener

First entries: Grootslang, Clamorous cube, and a note on sea monsters to go google "sea monster corpse" if I need something horrible and dead-looking and I'm not feeling squeamish.

BESW

Don't forget the owlephant's many forms.

Joshua Aslan Smith

hahaha

displacer beast is a pretty good monster as well

Aaron

@Dorian @Nahyn Oklauq If you are interested I stated it in pathfinder out of boredom. With a few tweaks it could be used in 3.5 easily. docs.google.com/document/d/…

Joshua Aslan Smith

13:25

had to share this (despite Io9 being a terrible site)

io9.com/…

lisardggY

@JoshuaAslanSmith They had an article a few days ago about how the name "Cain" had become a cliche, so they listed 15 different Cains (and Caines, and Caynes, and Kaynes) from different franchises. I wondered how come Roger Zelazny's Amber wasn't on the list when I realized that there were absolutely no characters from books. TV shows, movies, comic books, video games - yes. But books? Who reads anymore?

Joshua Aslan Smith

The whole gawker family of sites is terrible, I read it mostly to point and laugh at the terrible community and terrible quality of articles but every once in awhile something decent pops up on io9 or kotaku that is worth reading/sharing other than to be bewildered by.

BESW

@lisardggY The "Bourne" series of novels has a Cain.

doppelgreener

I'm going to share here possibly my favourite roleplaying story to date: the tale of Tandem the bard, the greatest swordsman in the world. (Apologies for the audio: this was told at a convention and the acoustics are not great.)