TRPG General Chat

Jack Lesnie

00:48

@JoshuaAslanSmith - a) your name is hard to type, b) there's a difference between bad and hard. Introducing adult topics into a game is hard, it isn't bad. Same as telling children about the darker aspects of the world - hard, not bad.

Metool

@JackLesnie There's a reason you type @Josh[tab]

Jack Lesnie

Oh, tab does it? I used my mouse to click like a fool

wait.. thought I tried tab

@Metool oh I see, the little popup doesn't disappear after it does it's job.

Alex P

02:26

I'm kinda game-designin'.

Oxinabox

02:44

I want to ask a question about special considerations when roleplaying with housemates.
Not sure if it would be too subjective/broad.

Like you don't want to offend housemates -- you got to live with them.

Alex P

Are they also your friends, or just kinda your housemates?

I guess where I'm going with this is that there's nothing intrinsic about housemates that one really handles differently.

But if you're looking for, say, "I want an especially inoffensive game style" or something, that can be a question.

Oxinabox

One would be my wife, one would be a close friend who we will probably end out living with for the next decade,
and one would be kinda a friend, but not someone I am close to.

Jack Lesnie

Housemates - people you can't avoid, but don't necessarily have the level of intimacy that allows frank communication that you have with friends

Oxinabox

yeah

Jack Lesnie

see also: workmates

Oxinabox

02:51

yeah, actually very similar

and then on the otherside, is that I have been refusing to GM a game with my wife playing as idk if i can be fair.

Alex P

Okay, so I could see something there about "How do I game with a group of people, all of whom are very much in my social circles but some of whom are close friends and some of whom are more like friendly acquaintances, without alienating anyone?"

(Which you could certainly title "housemates" in the title, for short.)

Oxinabox

or housemates/work mates.

Alex P

Zactly.

I think the bigger thing here is that you are close with some but not all of the group.

Jack Lesnie

people talking about 'being fair' as a GM typically don't actually understand the GM's job

Alex P

What kind of game are you looking to play, out of curiosity? (Some solutions are basically "treat the game like poker night," which suits a more "casual"/"action-packed" style better than it suits, like, brooding dramatic roleplaying.)

Oxinabox

02:59

Jack: I don't think that is true.
There is a definite aspect of fairness.
There are all kinds of things that can be done unfairly,
from rules interpretation to when to fudge roles,
to the setting of difficulty.

Alex P

@JackLesnie The GM's job varies a lot from group to group and game to game.

Oxinabox

indeed.

re:what kinda game.
I generally get more enjoyment out of something political,
and thus the broody dramatic end.

It has been quiet a while since I have run anything action packed.
Killem-em-up.

Alex P

Hmm, we have a question about dicey issues related to dark/gritty/political right now (that I'm currently editing).

My off-the-cuff advice would be: (1) figure out how to set boundaries as a group, (2) only go for this if you actually like your not-so-close housemate and want them to, you know, be a friend.

I'd also recommend trying some short-form gaming first.

A two-session game, for instance.

Jack Lesnie

people who say that also generally don't know.

the GM's job is to tell interesting stories

Metool

with the players

Jack Lesnie

03:06

i'd say 'that's obvious, they are the audience, they have to be involved in the story or it isn't a story', but I guess it isn't obvious.

Oxinabox

Not universally true.
There are Kill-em-up RPGs that plenty of people like that consist of random encounters without any real plot at all.

and people enjoy that. I don't but I know people who do

Jack Lesnie

That's a boring story.

Not a lack of a story.

Humans make narratives instinctively.

But well I guess, for those people, that's an 'interesting story'.

Alex P

@JackLesnie That's everybody's job. It's not at all the GM's special job, as far as I'm concerned, in anything I consider functional play.

DuckTapeal

It may be the GM's job to make interesting stories, but many people have more fun playing a story where the world isn't specifically out to get their character, or is specifically working to make another character's life easier.

Oxinabox

So is it Fair if the GM tells a story about bad things happening to one character?

Jack Lesnie

03:09

Of course not.

But it might be fucking good storytelling.

Which is why trying to be 'fair' can be counterproductive.

Oxinabox

ok, you make a valid point

Alex P

So, where the fairness thing comes in is that a lot of conventional games have a big tactical element. BUT the GM also has a really, really free hand in setting up challenges and playing the opposition. So there is room for a lot of accidental favoritism.

Jack Lesnie

Accidental favouritism isn't good storytelling.

DuckTapeal

Fairness certainly isn't the most important thing for a GM, but it certainly is an important thing for a GM.

Jack Lesnie

Since it derails the fundamental character-focuses which form the heart of any good story.

Alex P

03:10

That's not a useful actionable statement, to me.

DuckTapeal

@AlexP Which isn't?

Alex P

@JackLesnie "Accidental favoritism isn't good storytelling."

So, what do I do about that?

I mean, it kinda sounds like the answer is "Try consciously to be fair, to avoid accidental favoritism." Which is... the thing you just said is not worth doing, right?

Jack Lesnie

See, the problem with that line of thinking is it takes fairness as inherently good for the story.

Which I already pointed out.

Is not always the case.

Oxinabox

I think it is, generally.
And we need to make generalistations

Jack Lesnie

A better way to put it would be 'don't let your personal feelings for players influence the world or the characters, while still taking into account the fact they are also your audience'

Alex P

03:13

So, "tell a good story" is so generalized it's useless. It's not a procedure or even a set of concrete goals.

@JackLesnie That's more actionable.

Jack Lesnie

Seems pretty specific to me. You can tell by audience reaction whether a story was good or not, and good stories share various characteristics, like 'emotionally effective' and 'comprise an arc or physical/conceptual journey'

Oxinabox

"A GM's job is to tell a good story."
is a generalisation.

Most of the time a GM's job is to tell a good story.
But some of the time the GM's job is to play the NPCs, like a player plays a PC.
while the players tell a story.

DuckTapeal

How about "Keep the game fair, unless you have a good reason not to."?

Jack Lesnie

A good story involves the audience. Traditionally this is done via manipulation, as you have no real way to involve the audience in the actual storytelling process.

But roleplaying games give the storyteller the ability to involve the audience directly as participants and in some ways story creators.

So at that point, as a storyteller, why wouldn't you? You should be doing that in like 99% of the cases.

Oxinabox

Seem to have gone off on a tangent

Jack Lesnie

03:16

And in the few areas where you don't, there should be a reason for that, like when you cut away to the Evil Lord's Lair briefly or whatever.

Not really. You're asking how to chop onions, i'm showing you how to use a knife.

The knife will solve many problems all at once.

Oxinabox

No I'm asking how to chop onions. You are saying: Cooking good food is Good.

Jack Lesnie

Man cooking good food involves so much more than just a few good gm skills.

gotta consider spice balance, freshness, ingredient mix, temperatures, timing

various sneaky chef tricks

Oxinabox

Man, food is great.
I'ma go get me food.

bbl

Jack Lesnie

Fucking A.

DuckTapeal

I wanted to get pizza tonight, and all three pizza places within walking distance were closed like 5 minutes after I got there. :(

Jack Lesnie

03:18

That feeling is shit

It's worse when you have no actual other food and it's bitterly fucking cold

DuckTapeal

I had to make do with pizza flavoured combos.

Jack Lesnie

That's when you learn that you don't need to bake flour to eat it

DuckTapeal

Lol.

Oxinabox

those are bad days.

DuckTapeal

Thankfully, I'm not in that position. And Cumby's was open, so I got some sandwiches.

Do they have Cumberland Farms where you are, @JackLesnie?

Jack Lesnie

03:20

I have only been genuinely starving once in my life, and it was fucking ass. I still recommend it, though. You learn a lot of things about yourself when you have no actual food and no prospects of food in the future.

Australian, so no.

DuckTapeal

Ah. I know that some chains from america have franchises in other countries, but I never really know which ones.

Jack Lesnie

uhhhhhhhhhhhh

We have mcdonald's? And subway? And hungry jacks? Those are american, right?

KFC?

Oxinabox

Hungery Jacks is burger king but rebranded.

DuckTapeal

Yup. All four are, to my knowledge.

Is it? Huh. Never knew that.

Jack Lesnie

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh‌hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

'kmart'?

7-11 is american.

Oxinabox

03:24

our Kmart and Target are not at all affiated with the US ones
someone just stole the name

Jack Lesnie

although it's mostly only in the CBD areas of the major cities.

^ good.

DuckTapeal

I find it kind of funny that you have 7-11 and not Cumberland Farms.

Jack Lesnie

I don't even know what a 'cumberland' is

I assume a cumbrous amount of land

DuckTapeal

Neither do I.

:)

Jack Lesnie

'lots of land farms'

We have regular farms.

You know, the kind that produce food.

DuckTapeal

03:26

Aha. It started in Cumberland, Rhode Island.

Jack Lesnie

there is a chain of vegetable and fruit stores called Harris Farm Markets.

Metool

03:56

heyo @Lord_Gareth

doppelgreener

06:01

@Oxinabox Wesfarmers has an agreement with the American companies to be able to use the names. The first expansions here were instigated by the American company, though it seems they became less interested in owning & operating the stores.

Similar thing with Gloria Jeans. The US and Australian companies are completely independent of one another, but there's just some kind of branding agreement in place. (Which is nice, because it means I can get Gloria Jeans over here without worrying about contributing to the fundamentalist stuff the USA company does.)

Oxinabox

06:31

mmhmm, and for the same kinda reason:
Our pepsi is made not by PepsiCo but by Cadbury-Schweppes.
Not so strange as New Zealand,
Where there pepsi is made by coke.

lisardggY

/good morning

BESW

I will have three players tonight!

I have no idea what to do.

Metool

Dance party?

lisardggY

06:51

At first I thought this came from Cooking.SE, but even on Physics.SE it's a pretty awesome title:

18

Q: Homemade salad dressing separates into layers after it sits for a while. Why doesn't this violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics?

The oil, vinegar and other liquids in homemade salad dressing separate into layers after sitting for a while, making the mixture become more organized as time evolves. Why doesn't this violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics? I assume that the answer is that since the separation is due to gravity...

BESW

07:03

V. cool.

It's a good example of how lower-level physics explanations tend to say things--or at least imply them--which are wrong, in an attempt to make them simpler.

Which in turn is a good case for teachers needing to know more about a subject than just what they're expected to teach.

lisardggY

And I don't think that's necessarily bad, as long as you deeply ingrain a healthy sense of "This is X at a macro level, but things are more complicated when you zoom in".

BESW

An oil/water mixture LOOKS like a Maxwell's Demon at work, but the Maxwell's Demon thought experiment is about particles which are identical except for speed.

lisardggY

You have to be able to know things at an abstract level, even if it means your understanding is incomplete. There are too many things to know, otherwise.

BESW

Oh, aye.

But there's a distinct difference between incomplete understanding and incorrect understanding.

Unfortunately, the latter is often considered sufficient for people who only need the former.

<maloryarcher> Do you want creationists? Because that's how you get creationists. </maloryarcher>

4

lisardggY

I think the question above is mostly the first. He understood the basic concept of low->high entropy, he just misunderstood the separation as "low entropy", when in fact it was a high-entropy situation.

BESW

07:10

Hmm.

It looks like an oversimplification of entropy--which admittedly I don't understand enough to be able to explain fully myself.

doppelgreener

@BESW [immediately thinks of Finnish education system]

BESW

?

doppelgreener

@BESW Teachers have university degrees in the field they teach and are expected to learn continuously.

And write academic papers, etc.

BESW

07:29

[sigh] Compare the expensive correspondence homeschool program my mother tried to use with me, which informed first-grade BESW that the seasons are caused because the earth's tilt brings the hemispheres closer and further from the sun at different times of year; and that 7-9=0 because they hadn't taught him negative numbers yet.

doppelgreener

@BESW Come to think of it I am actually not sure what causes the seasons, but that last one is awful

Lying in the name of keeping things simple isn't education!

BESW

It's the tilt of the earth, but it's not distance.

doppelgreener

Oh right I didn't catch that. It's just the exposure time, right?

BESW

Take a flashlight and point it straight down at the table, then point it at the table with a 45-degree angle.

The same amount of light (energy/heat) is spread across more area, so each section gets less of it.

(Which is exactly how my exasperated mother explained it to me, complete with flashlight in dark room, after literally throwing the book out.)

I'm guessing the book was written by someone who got the "tilt" bit and made up the rest.

(We covered the phases of the moon, and eclipses, with an apple and an orange on a stick, and a flashlight.)

doppelgreener

@BESW I am very glad she did.

BESW

07:39

I totally get why people associate home-schooling with ignorance; I was nearly a victim of such.

But I was also lucky enough to get awesome home-schooling, so I get a bit uppity about such generalisations.

doppelgreener

I haven't heard such generalisations myself! My exposure to home-schooling has been in the form of clever kids from fiction, or my neighbours, whose parents are fairly intelligent.

BESW

In the US, at least, often home-schooling is associated with families who have strong objections to some of the content taught in schools (often on fundamentalist religiosity grounds), but don't really have the ability to provide a substantial substitute themselves.

doppelgreener

08:03

@BESW Bother. Dx

Incidentally the same family is fairly fundamentalist and had similar reasons... so I am not sure. But, the father's an engineer. They at least won't get the mathematics wrong.

(and that is rare in Australia.)

BESW

Heh.

Jack Lesnie

14:44

@JonathanHobbs - if you drink anything made at gloria jeans, you're a monster. You can buy good coffee if you shop around in this country - this is not true of some other places. Drinking stale grounds at starbucks or gloria jeans just increases the chance eventually there will be no good baristas making good coffee at all.

Metool

[kills @JackLesnie for having opinions]

Jack Lesnie

probably justified

doppelgreener

15:12

@JackLesnie i'm not really sure how to respond to that

that's a mixture of going overboard and making a whole lotta assumptions

e.g. i will buy a gloria jeans or starbucks or mccafe coffee irregularly when the situation puts me in range of one of those and nowhere else really, and i'm not apologetic for it

and lo and behold, >90% of my coffees are purchased from 3 different independent excellent barista stores

and i work on a block where on that block alone there are nine coffee shops. Two of those opened up this very year, and every single one is independent.

(and most of them are pretty good)

so, no, your assertion that purchasing those franchise's coffees makes me a monster and will contribute to there not being any good baristas is complete bullshit

DuckTapeal

Jack seems to be pretty good at the whole 'going overboard and making assumptions' thing, based on the conversation about GM fairness yesterday.

Jack Lesnie

15:28

Actually, a lot of people I talk with just use hyperbole and facetious, mocking language as part of friendly interaction, and it's really hard to turn off.

BESW

Good skill to cultivate, I'd say.

Jack Lesnie

Like, I don't actually think anyone is a monster for drinking gloria jeans coffee.

That is clearly a joke.

I just think it's shit coffee.

That is the extent of my actual opinion on the subject

DuckTapeal

You're on the internet, Jack. Nothing is 'clearly' a joke. There are actual people who believe hyperbolic things.

Jack Lesnie

And they shouldn't be taken seriously.

doppelgreener

text does not communicate insincerity

Jack Lesnie

15:30

No, I mean if someone believes and says something hyperbolic, you should treat it like a joke.

doppelgreener

body language and tone of voice does, unless you're communicating that insincerity with the strength of a mallet

@JackLesnie you might be better off investing your efforts here into just learning how to turn off the hypebole/etc

Jack Lesnie

Communication without pizazz is just math.

doppelgreener

when someone's expressing commonly-held vitriol that is always serious when I hear it, I'm gonna take it as serious.

Jack Lesnie

wait, you hear stuff that is as hyperbolic as my hyperbole, seriously, on a regular basis?

doppelgreener

@JackLesnie You are confusing "communication with pizazz" and "being a raving jerk"

DuckTapeal

15:34

@JackLesnie Absolutely.

It's actually super common on some parts of the internet.

doppelgreener

which is not to say you are a raving jerk as a character trait, but the things you were saying and appear to be considering pizazz were raving jerkish things.

@JackLesnie there is plenty of vitriol available from plenty of people about large coffee franchises, especially in Australian cities with a huge coffee culture.

Jack Lesnie

Yeah, but people who actually think someone is monster for drinking franchise coffee is a whole nother kettle of fish.

A whole nother kettle of freaking insane fish.

DuckTapeal

And there's no way for us to know whether you're insane or not, given the fact that we only see your text.

Lord_Gareth

@JackLesnie Yo, PG-13 it bro.

BESW

I'd rather not go through life--or even just this chat--assuming that people who express opinions I find unlikely are, in fact, only pretending to have those opinions. It seems arrogant, at best.

Jack Lesnie

15:38

Shouldn't it be extravagantly obvious from context?

DuckTapeal

I worked on an MMO for a few years. I had people calling for my job on a fairly regular basis over really minor stuff.

doppelgreener

No.

You are on the internet. If you spew hateful vitriol and insult people, everyone is going to take you seriously, because there is absolutely no body language or tone of voice telling us you are not serious, and people do this seriously.

Jack Lesnie

But i'm not pursuing the topic, i'm spouting it as throwaway lines.

doppelgreener

People do not take you seriously in real life not because of what you are saying, but because your tone of voice and body language makes it clear you are not saying this stuff sincerely.

DuckTapeal

@JackLesnie What context? The only context that I have regarding what you say is "Jack tends to have strong opinions", and that's only because I've been talking with you regularly for weeks.

Jack Lesnie

15:39

Surely that indicates that I don't actually care, not to mention the fanciful and silly uses of language.

doppelgreener

@JackLesnie Yeah, we didn't have that indication back when you left me that paragraph of hate.

BESW

Especially if you're consistently hyperbolic--which you are--the impact of your hyperbole is dulled and expressing extreme opinions simply becomes part of your character.

Jack Lesnie

Yes, that's the point. It's an excuse to use language, to be bombastic and hyperbolic.

doppelgreener

I find the fact you're dismissing all these concerns and saying "hey you should not have taken me seriously, it's your fault" to be extremely concerning, instead of thinking (even privately) "hey maybe that was something I should not have done and should not do next time."

Jack Lesnie

I refuse to believe that anyone actually talks like this and actually means it. It's absurdly ridiculous in structure inherently.

doppelgreener

15:40

@JackLesnie No, it's you being a jerk. Or appearing as such, which is almost as bad.

BESW

If there's no common lack of hyperbole to compare it to, we'll assume you're not being hyperbolic--you're operating on the same raised platform all the time, so we don't get any cues that it's not how you express your sincerity.

Jack Lesnie

I express my sincerity like any reasonable person, with logical and rational arguments presented simply and succinctly.

But my casual communication is hyperbolic because the alternative is boring.

DuckTapeal

@JackLesnie And crazy people express their sincerity by being super hyperbolic. Since we have no way of determining your sanity through non-text cues, we cannot assume that you're a reasonable person.

BESW

One of the very first things you ever said to me was a flat statement that my religion's administration was doomed to corruption and failure. I took it seriously, responded sincerely, and you didn't react. My assumption was not "He didn't follow it through, so he must have been joking." It was "I'm glad that didn't escalate because I don't know how civil it could have remained."

DuckTapeal

There's a difference between hyperbole and insult.

Jack Lesnie

15:45

Well, that wasn't hyperbole at all. I genuinely believe that any system is imperfect and doomed to introduction of attempts at gain and greed by individuals which are incorporated into the system over time.

DuckTapeal

@JackLesnie That's exactly the problem. It's impossible for us to tell whether you're being serious or not when you are sometimes sincere in your hyperbole and sometimes aren't.

Jack Lesnie

Oh, come on.

My writing style changes completely.

DuckTapeal

I can't tell the difference.

Writing style is a super nebulous thing. I can't ever discern major differences in writing style between my favorite authors most of the time.

BESW

Look. We're saying that several of us have a problem with understanding your style of communication, and it makes it difficult to ever take you seriously or be comfortable having a dialogue with you. Whether you believe that's... reasonable, or overreacting, or anything else, doesn't change that it's true.

Several of us have that experience and feel that way.

You, of course, are free to take this and do with it whatever you like.

It would have been rude of us not to mention it, though, because it is affecting how we perceive and interact with you and keeping you ignorant of that would be bad form.

We are suggesting that toning down the hyperbole--maybe discovering a less caustic and aggressive method of spicing up your conversations--seems like a useful thing to be able to do in many contexts, not just this one.

So: now you know. I'm sorry it wasn't presented in a more gentle fashion.

Jack Lesnie

Eh.

I know people all over the world - we communicate regularly.

Some of them I have only ever used text to talk with.

They are mostly not the kind of people who wouldn't instantly speak up if they had trouble communicating with me.

BESW

15:53

[wave] Hi, we're people who are having trouble communicating with you.

Lord_Gareth

Look, lemme make this simple.

Jack Lesnie

This site has a specific meta which means that the people who end up regularly in the chat rooms for it have a cultural basis which is probably causing a cultural clash.

Lord_Gareth

The Stack has a professional environment. We are expected to maintain Standards with a Capital S.

Jack Lesnie

Exactly.

Lord_Gareth

I've been slapped around for doing the same thing

So: moderate the tone

Jack Lesnie

15:54

And i'm not treating it in that fashion, which is the problem, not my use of hyperbole.

I'll probably just avoid talking here except on technical matters from now on.

BESW

You're right. It's not just the hyperbole. That shouldn't have been focused on as much as it was. And yes, every place of discourse has a culture whether deliberate or not.

There is a half-formed attempt here on this chat at deliberately creating a culture which we haven't seen much elsewhere on SE chats or the Internet at large. We're not really great at it, but we try to have open lines of communication, have clashes of opinion without becoming enemies, be welcoming to whoever comes by, and keep to a PG-13 rating. There are, of course, other less conscious elements of this chat's culture that we may or may not be proud of.

doppelgreener

To be fair, the hyperbole was focused on because that is the thing that happened just now to spur this entire conversation.

In which I was called a monster and condemned for putting good baristas out of business as a means of expressing (but stating anything but):

36 mins ago, by Jack Lesnie

I just think it's shit coffee.

none of it being remotely funny.

Jack Lesnie

I speak fluent Urban Professional. Just not for fun, in my time off.

doppelgreener

Yeah and this is an issue for me that you find absolutely nothing wrong with this.

Communication is the responsibility of the communicator.

and to a minor extent, the listener, to try and interpret it well based on what's there.

BESW

It'd be cool to get your insights into the chat's culture, as someone who has apparently experienced many different such environs. You could probably be a great help to us in being more conscious of how we present ourselves. But you will get pushback from a lot of the chat citizens about swearing, attacking people for the sake of "pizazz," and similar behaviour.

I don't think (and I suspect several others agree) that being among friends, or being unprofessional, justifies being rude or crude around people who don't appreciate it.

We've told you we don't appreciate it. We haven't said we don't appreciate you; quite the contrary or this conversation wouldn't still be going on.

DuckTapeal

16:09

Also, the problem isn't that you aren't speaking Urban Professional. The issue is that you tend to insult people with your hyperbole, which doesn't feel great.

Jack Lesnie

@JonathanHobbs - I understand your concerns, and after reviewing the culture here, agree that I was in the wrong with that comment. Moving forward, I will refrain in future from that sort of comment or communication.

doppelgreener

@JackLesnie That would be helpful. I suggest you listen to the stuff BESW is saying here. At this rate you're going to systematically alienate people.

BESW

You might consider it a personal challenge--to discover new and interesting ways to spice up your conversations that you can use in wider contexts.

doppelgreener

Well, at the rate of continuing down the earlier means of communication.

BESW

I had a related challenge when I suddenly noticed I'd started swearing a lot, about nine years ago. It was getting harder and harder to turn on and off at the right times, and I had to think about whether I was okay with it--which I wasn't--and then why I was doing it, and find solutions and alternatives to address it. It's something I still struggle with.

doppelgreener

16:16

You still struggle with swearing a lot?

BESW

Oh, effin' aye.

[wry]

doppelgreener

This is somehow something I actually don't have trouble imagining, haha.

BESW

I'm not even very creative--which I discovered was part of the reason I swore, actually. It was lazy: using profanity instead of finding the right words to say what I actually meant.

There were/are other motivating factors too, including my tendency to pick up the speech patterns of whoever I'm around a lot.

(Not the accent, just the vocabulary and pacing.)

doppelgreener

@BESW versus "confound it, this is frustrating"

or "you sir are a shmoo"

I have just read what a shmoo is and I am slightly horrified by their behaviour patterns. And amused that this turned into an insult somewhere along the way.

Shmoo

A shmoo (plural: shmoon, also shmoos) is a fictional cartoon creature. Created by Al Capp (1909–1979), it first appeared in his classic comic strip Li'l Abner on August 31, 1948. __TOC__ Description A shmoo is shaped like a plump bowling pin with legs. It has smooth skin, eyebrows and sparse whiskers—but no arms, nose or ears. Its feet are short and round but dextrous, as the shmoo's comic book adventures make clear. It has a rich gamut of facial expressions, and often expresses love by extruding hearts over its head. Cartoonist Al Capp ascribed to the shmoo the following curious charac...

and now I should sleep. Goodnight!

BESW

Yeah. Instead of calling someone a d**kh**d, I should find a word that really says what they're doing which disgusts me.

doppelgreener

16:27

Yus.

Lord_Gareth

@BESW See, my general approach is to pull one of these: "Sir, excuse me, but were your aware that your cranium bears an extraordinary resemblance to a phallus?"

doppelgreener

I find there's one very helpful pattern: if you're angry/annoyed/frustrated/sad or some other negative emotion, say "I am feeling {negative emotion you are feeling}."

It tends to be that saying so makes it evaporate.

BESW

It's also harder to counter, if the other person feels so inclined.

doppelgreener

e.g. you can either silently fume at a kid or you can say "I am annoyed because of what happened earlier."

or etc

@Lord_Gareth i've read that oglaf comic!

Lord_Gareth

@JonathanHobbs [Bro fist]

BESW

16:30

@JonathanHobbs Isn't that, like, 1/4 of Oglaf comics?

doppelgreener

@BESW Well, yes, but... then there's (NSFW) this one (NSFW this comic is completely 18+)

@Lord_Gareth [fist bump, proceeds to mock rock shatter]

okay now i really will proceed to go to sleep. Fare well!

KRyan

17:16

@mxyzplk What's with the censoring? I don't disagree that it was probably a poor choice of words in the first place, but I wasn't aware of any rule saying that such words couldn't be used, and moreover dredging up a whole bunch of old questions for that seems odd...

@JonathanHobbs strictly speaking, there are a few that would probably be safe for children/work

the labyrinth one, for example

mxyzplk

17:36

rpg.stackexchange.com/help/behavior

Please note that expletives are not allowed. If you use expletives on this site, you may be issued a warning or a suspension.

I try to catch them as they come, but realized via search a bunch had slipped through. This site is for gamers, which can go down to a reasonably young age. No sense driving away some users because we can't use our words better.

Let's all try to move posts towards better word choices as we move forward.

Make sense?

@KRyan answer here

Alex P

Swearing is kind of Jeff Atwood's personal hobby-horse.

IIRC he justifies it by saying that too many swears will cause work filters to reject Stack Exchange.

I can accept it as de-facto policy just to, like, discourage people being idiots.

mxyzplk

@AlexP Yeah, the real question is what's the upside of loads of swearing - nothing really. It inflames emotions, drives away overly young, professional, or moral people/environments, etc. No need to go crazy about it, just usual FCC rules are fine.

Alex P

I think the stated reasons are silly and, well, an "f-bomb" doesn't create a hostile place the same way that something like this does.

I don't entirely trust people not to be terrible, especially on the sites that tend more towards widespread "drive-by" use.

mxyzplk

17:52

That's why "don't use expletives" is not the entirety of how to not be an offensive person on SE. Obviously it's possible to do so without them. That's also bad and actionable hereabouts.

Alex P

But I recall Atwood (who isn't running SE anymore, IIRC?) editing like all kinds of trivial stuff into a mangled wreck.

In order to take out a well-used singleton swear that's not attacking anyone.

Which was just like, "Man, you really have a thing about this, and it's silly."

KRyan

18:34

@mxyzplk ah, sure. I just felt like it conflicts with the prohibition on minor edits, and kind of disrupted the front page.

Lord_Gareth

Sorry about the smite on the Changeling answer, @KRyan, but the question is really one of those cases where the specifics of the setting are important

KRyan

@Lord_Gareth nah, that was my fault; I could have sworn I read "Summer" rather than "Spring"

DF only does Summer/Winter too

Lord_Gareth

@KRyan Changeling has court systems which contain 2 or more courts each

A big part of the difference is because Changeling has a divide between 'fae' (anything touched by the Wyrd) and Fae (The True Fae, the Gentry, the Lords and Ladies, the Kindly Ones, the Cousins, Strangers, Others, They Who Watch, the Lords Without, the Thousand Princes, the Invisible Throng, the Hordes of the Unseen)

The former include the PCs and their political system

The latter are inscrutable Lovecraftian gods

Aforementioned political system revolves almost entirely around keeping its members - and the mortals within the system's domain - safe from the True Fae while also hiding Changeling existence and providing support, resources, companionship, and laws by which the Changelings must abide

If zat makes sense, @KRyan

?

KRyan

18:58

@Lord_Gareth sure...

didn't really ask, heh, but yeah, sure, I get it

Lord_Gareth

I felt the need to wax poetic

Jadasc

@mxyzplk Fair enough. Hadn't realized that was part of the CoC. In my case, what I'd included was a direct quote from published material. No problem with the correction; just a surprise is all.

doppelgreener

23:54

@KRyan oh, yes, I just meant that particular one

@KRyan A few weeks ago we had that huge front page churn thanks to the meta posts on comments and other things, and we managed to get to a state where everything on the front page had been modified within the last 18 hours, and of the most recent 20 active questions, only 3 were because of a new question or answer (the remainder were very old posts getting edited)

And yet... all of our recent questions were still getting answered.

I think our front page can take a pretty decent hit. (and I think I have been mistaken about how little it can take.)

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