TRPG General Chat

trogdor

11:00

the episodes of the show were pretty much all the exact same thing

Inbar Rose

Exactly!

Go to a place, figure out whodunnit©.

trogdor

and the person dressing as the monster says almost the exact same thing as the last person

lisardggY

@InbarRose Go investigate the mystery, encounter evidence of supernatural activity, then expose it for someone with financial interest under a sheet.

Makes you wonder exactly how stoned Shaggy had to be to never, ever learn from experience that it's never a ghost.

trogdor

the answer is stoned enough to want to eat at all times

so pretty stoned

Inbar Rose

:)

doppelgreener

11:07

@Zachiel s'why edits bump questions; so other people can check them and make sure no funny business is going on

(like vandalism or etc)

Zachiel

@lisardggY what if next one really is?

BESW

And in some of the later iterations of the show, there are ghoulies and ghosties.

trogdor

11:22

I never saw those

probably because I stopped watching the show after a couple dozen episodes

I figured out that I wasn't going to get anything new out of it

Inbar Rose

@BESW That's all I have for now - I will come back and look at it some more - not sure what we can do with it.. but if nothing else its a good exercise, and a good example to show others.

Lord_Gareth

11:53

I enjoy large fundaments and am incapable of falsehood

Zachiel

@Lord_Gareth large fundaments?

Professor Caprion

Huge tracts of land.

Phil

0

Q: (rolled) Death during character creation

Is it ever Ok to have a Diceroll made during character gen kill or cripple a character before they are played? I know in certain Systems, this is almost true if you are really unlucky at rolling. (Eg anything with rolled attributes). Personally I really dislike rolls during character generation...

VTC?

Lord_Gareth

@Zachiel One's fundament is one's butt, @Zachiel. The phrase was popular during older periods of the English language as a euphamism

It was called that because it's your 'foundation', your 'lowest point' upon which the body rests

Which was a really fancy way of saying, 'You sit on this'.

Zachiel

Maybe I'm missing context. What are you talking about?

Professor Caprion

12:04

I... didn't know there was any system where you could die during creation...

Phil

Traveller

Lord_Gareth

@Zachiel You could translate my statement as, "I like big butts and I cannot lie."

doppelgreener

@Lord_Gareth try using the Stack upload so that doesn't go blank in the transcript ;D

(but that is a rad santa)

Zachiel

@Lord_Gareth I got that but... was it referred to something I didn't get? Are you just... coming out? Why here of all places? I'm confused... and entertained

Lord_Gareth

@Zachiel Just watch this. NSFW lyrics potentially though it's, like, thirty years old nearly

►

Aaron

12:13

Gmornin

lisardggY

Gmrnn to you too.

Lord_Gareth

HAIL UNTO THEE IN THE UNDIMMED GLORY OF THIS, THE PRE-AFTERNOON TIME

Aaron

@Lord_Gareth HAIL

2

BESW

Zachiel

@Lord_Gareth Wonderful. Now I have nothing but smuppets in my mind.

Jadasc

12:20

@AlexP True enough. I stop by to see what the topics are, and then usually head back to work. But, hey. Nice to see everyone.

BESW

...and if anyone can figure out why I just linked a picture of a skylark, even using Google, I will award them One Internet.

Lord_Gareth

@Zachiel Know the suffering of every living American who was present for that song's radio debut

I swear to you that's affected our day-to-day habits more than most cultural movements

Jadasc

@JonathanHobbs Welcome to the Brotherhood. :) That was the badge I worked hardest for. (Well, that and world-of-darkness.

Lord_Gareth

?

Aaron

@BESW does it have to do with hail?

BESW

12:24

@Aaron No clues.

Zachiel

@BESW I don't really know... I pposted the smuppet after you posted the skylark so it's not because of Homestuck...

BESW

I have made the joke here before.

Just not with pictures.

Jadasc

Text error. My apologies. What I was going to say was that this particular lyric has a resonance to Champions players, since "Cannot Lie" was a canon example of a non-strength PhysLim. So "I like big butts (PsychLim) and I cannot lie (PhysLim)."

Lord_Gareth

Ahahahaha

Aaron

@BESW To a skylark the poem?

Jadasc

12:26

Which is worth about 75 points, I think.

Zachiel

BESW

@Aaron I award you one Internet!

And here, have a thing related to the other topic:

►

Aaron

@BESW Yay!

Lord_Gareth

@BESW - Also, did a PvP 3.5 match last night. A friend of mine had a player who didn't believe in the unholy power of Wizahd, so I dug out an old incantatrix build that I screwed around with something like four years ago.

Now, when you build these sorts of wizards it's traditional to put your non-Concentration, non-Spellcraft skill points in something totally insulting. Craft (Underwater Basketweaving) is the go-to, but I chose Perform (Rap) and Perform (Dance) as my go-tos

And had him memorize all of his spells as silent

BESW

I'm fond of Craft (insult), myself.

Lord_Gareth

12:30

The result: when the match opened up with Celerity and combos of blasting spells chained into contingencies of spells that shred his resistances and AC, the wizard is rapping the opening to Jace Hall's Street Fighter

"Here comes a new challenger, I'm grabbin' my stick//Another damn noob 'bout to get his butt kicked//Call me the doctor 'cause my combo so sick//Every button I click, always a hit, they quit!"

Zachiel

and the rap gesturing doubles as Somatic components I guess

Lord_Gareth

@Zachiel Admittedly, at least this wizard build actually looks like he's trying to kill you. Do you recall the one where he spent the whole match reclining in a lawn chair, drinking martinis while eight people tried to kill him?

Zachiel

@Lord_Gareth rap battles of history worth

Lord_Gareth

►

Zachiel

@Lord_Gareth uhm, no

Lord_Gareth

12:33

@Zachiel Ahahaha I haven't told this story here?

doppelgreener

@Jadasc Thank you x)

Zachiel

@Lord_Gareth Maybe I wasn't here while you did

Aaron

@Lord_Gareth I don't know if you have but please repeat it.

Lord_Gareth

Oh god, okay.

So, I need to preface this by stating that the tier system is not about PvP, though some elements of PvP are relevant because you may face obstacles created by people with class levels - such as shaking an NPC ranger's tracking, infiltrating a sorcerer's fortress (and its magical defenses) or fighting off a squad of evil cultists. Make sense thus far?

Zachiel

I trust in your ability to summarize and still let awesome transpire.

@Lord_Gareth makes sense.

Lord_Gareth

12:38

I have spoken before about how much I despise my players, but this was back during the height of them being annoying, ignorant little wretches. I'd just started getting into optimization and it was like seeing the light for the first time - suddenly I understood why I'd had so much frustration trying to play concepts that looked cool, but ended up getting smeared or not being able to contribute.

Inbar Rose

[pulls chair closer to hear better]

Lord_Gareth

They had trouble believing me. In their world, Monk was overpowered, Sneak Attack needed nerfing to 1/round, and Sorcerer needed class features because it was just too weak.

Zachiel

So you built a sorc?

Inbar Rose

the fools

Lord_Gareth

And after about a month of arguing about this (while I'm still running a game for them, mind you) I decide I've had about enough. I ask the eight of them to make 27th level characters - any class, any book, any non-Dragon option they like - for an arena match on a free Sunday. I inform them that they'll be facing down a single wizard built with 20 levels of experience points, let them know that they can craft their own equipment if they want to.

I ask if they want no buff time, or up to three rounds. They go for all three rounds of bufftime.

So the day comes, we get out sheets. They ask if I want to inspect anything, and I really don't. We've got a cleric, a bard, a monk, an ex-samurai/ronin, a swordsage, a fighter/swashbuckler, an evoker, and a rogue facing down against what ended up being a Wizard 10/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7

'Cause he crafted away 3 of his levels

They enter the arena and assume a circle formation, declaring that they're ready to immobilize; they lock into the spots for bufftime. He walks into the center of the circle and declares that he's ready, and bored, and locks into the spot for bufftime.

They start buffing. He reads one scroll, then pulls a lawn chair out of his bag of holding. The second round, he sits in the chair and conjures a table and his minibar from home. Third round he summons his imp familiar and commands it to mix him a martini.

At which point combat begins with him winning initiative - and spending his whole turn downing the martini, then drawling, "You may proceed."

7

Zachiel

12:46

invisible 7fold walls?

Lord_Gareth

Monk goes charging in, gets hit by an immediate-action violet veil - fails his save, is literally sent to Hell (Avernus, specifically)

Zachiel

oh, immediate, right

Lord_Gareth

Veil blocks the fighter and samu-WHY's charge path. Cleric summons a monster, which goes charging in and gets beasted by a contingent split-chained finger of death that takes out the bard (why was he not immune to this?) and bounces all over the battlefield looking pretty.

Swordsage comes in and gets wall of force'd when the mage mutters, "Oh hell no," under his breath (there was a lot of Craft Contingent Spell going on)

Rogue spends his turn moving above the wall

It goes on like this for two more rounds of them trying in frustration to get within forty feet of this wizard - who spends each and every round picking up and then downing a martini instead of doing a single thing with his own turn - before the scroll of delayed gate he read at the beginning goes off

And pulls in a balor

To mop up the survivors

doppelgreener

That is an amazing story.

Zachiel

LMaforementionedAO

Inbar Rose

12:49

Moral? Don't F@#$ with the GM.

Trajan

And that's why you should kill every mage you meet before they're lvl 6

6

Aaron

Note to self. Build a wizard next game I join.

Lord_Gareth

The sad bit is he only used the tiniest fraction of his available defenses, and the ones he did use had redundant backups.

Aaron

Ask for help from @Lord_Gareth

Trajan

@Lord_Gareth how much time have you spent on this build ?

Lord_Gareth

12:52

And, I mean, I didn't particularly want to go to that extreme but I'd long past reached the point where I had any patience with them, and I was sick of being forced to run encounters with my kid's gloves on.

@Trajan About an hour and a half, three shots of vodka, and twenty minutes re-reading Craft Contingent Spell every time I went, "Wait, I can really just do this and it won't stop me? I can? Goddamnit Ed Greenwood...okaaay..."

2

The sad thing is they learned the entirely wrong lesson from this; they thought class tiers were like fighting game tiers and that playing a higher-tier class would automatically make them stronger.

So I had to do this again, borrowing a fear-lockdown samurai from a friend.

Aaron

@Lord_Gareth I have never heard of Craft contingent spell. Is that a feat?

Inbar Rose

@Aaron Google it. (yes)

Zachiel

I usually despise craft contingent feat and invest all my money in durable equip.

I know, not OP, but I'm stingy

Inbar Rose

I had a campaign where there was an evil cabal working in secret and the players were trying to track them down - unfortunately - all their agents people who had been killed, risen from the dead, enchanted to seem alive (except powerful detection of course) and given 2 magical gems. One black, one red - the black one was spirit jar - the red was contingency teleport or something...

Aaron

Dang. It is op as hell. It makes it so your spells auto activate in certain conditions.

Lord_Gareth

12:57

@Aaron Welcome to spellcasters in 3.5 how may I help you.

Aaron

@Lord_Gareth Yes I would like godhood at lvl 15.

Inbar Rose

Basically - Anytime these agents were near death, a "handler" would teleport his spirit to the agent and then kill him and then leave with his spirit.

Zachiel

@Aaron awesome for a one-time enemy. Not so much for people who face 6 encounters per day, in my book.

Trajan

@Lord_Gareth Did you try Agon ? I read it and heard about it, and it has mechanics to allow a DM to really put the gloves off and try to beat the PCs to pulp. But I think the problem of non-optimizing-PCs would still occur.

Lord_Gareth

@Aaron Kinda late in the game but I suppose if you're not wanting to try and fight against higher-level casters at low levels...

@Trajan It's less that I want to beat my PCs. I mean, I know it sounds like it but it's honestly not - it's that I like being able to run tactically interesting encounters.

I didn't want to go Full Powah

I just wanted to be able to pick out cool monsters

Zachiel

12:59

@Trajan I've played it once. The GM told me the mecchanichs are flawed but I heve no idea to what extent.

Lord_Gareth

I've legitimately seen infinite wish loops that go off at first level, second level if you don't want dubious RAW

Fifth if you don't want to use Earth Spell for it

Trajan

@Zachiel Maybe I'll tell you when I have the chance to test it.

Lord_Gareth

Sixth if the GM bans early-entry cheese for PrCs

These are, incidentally, non-Pun-Pun builds

Aaron

I think I agree the best limit to put on the craft contingent spell is to limit it to x amount of words. I would do 5 or 10 words I think. So "Block powerful attacks." Would be valid where "Block all attacks that would kill me with a single blow." Would not be.

Trajan

@Lord_Gareth I got my a** kicked by some wee goblins, when my DM went tactical. It was fun !

Lord_Gareth

13:02

@Aaron So set the condition to you speaking a trigger phrase as a free action. Combine with foresight to forsee things that happen to you in-round.

Rogue coming in at you? Instead of your contingency being, "Melee attack," activate your ghostform by going, "Who you gonna call?"

BESW

I went the other way on occasion: I'd craft NPCs specifically to showcase something cool the players could do with roleplaying, or to introduce a new mechanic I was making available to everyone.

Zachiel

@Lord_Gareth foresight might actually do nothing but its mechanical effects, and the part you're referring to be just fluff supposed to justify why you get those bonus

Trajan

Did the martini serve any purpose ? Besides upsetting your opponents ?

Lord_Gareth

The command-phrase trigger is also a favorite of mailmen looking to increase their blasts when going nova.

@Trajan Just to be as insulting as possible, it didn't do anything else.

Aaron

@Lord_Gareth Hehehehehe

Inbar Rose

13:05

All this optimization and tier speak. I don't know all this strange terminology.

Lord_Gareth

@BESW I'd usually encourage my players to exhibit those options themselves. A favorite of mine would be to introduce it during a time when a PC was out of the action for some reason - waiting for resurrection, imprisoned - by having the player play an NPC with the option(s) for me.

Aaron

So using craft contingent spell couldn't you activate multiple spells in one turn by making them all dependent on the same phrase?

Inbar Rose

What's a mailman?

Lord_Gareth

@Aaron Yes, yes you can.

BESW

@Lord_Gareth You should've had him making Fort saves for Wis and Dex damage, as they wouldn't actually impact his ability to mop the floor anyway.

Aaron

13:06

@Lord_Gareth O.O O.o o.O

Do firestorm and ice storm stack?

BESW

@InbarRose A build designed to "deliver" as much direct damage as possible as swiftly and efficiently as possible to as wide a range of potential targets as possible.

Aaron

lol

Lord_Gareth

@InbarRose Mailmen are (usually arcane) spellcasters who focus on dealing direct damage. They utilize spells that target touch AC, or that auto-hit, and which don't allow saving throws or spell resistance. The idea is that you, not your enemy, decide if damage is dealt.

Inbar Rose

I see. thanks @Lord_Gareth and @BESW

Aaron

@Lord_Gareth Oh I like that idea.

Ok so I had a random idea because of a running joke in my group.

Lord_Gareth

13:08

Mailmen range from simple mid-op casters that deliver reliable damage through orb spells and metamagic'd magic missiles to planet-destroying gods of death who quietly ask hostile gods if they're feeling lucky.

Aaron

Everyone always says we should shoot a magic missile at shadows because it would destroy the world. So I started saying there was some powerful wizard somewhere who was constantly casting Shield on all shadows everywhere. My question. Is it actually possible to build a wizard that can do that?

Lord_Gareth

The initial attempts to build Mailmen produced some serious optimization tools that got used for a whole lot of other things - like the guy who invented the Surge of Fortune Shuffle

@Aaron No, but it's secretly okay - Magic Missile won't damage objects. d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicMissile.htm

Inbar Rose

@Lord_Gareth What the hell is that?

Lord_Gareth

@InbarRose The original SoFS used metamagic, the combust spell, and surge of fortune - normally a cleric-only spell. It invented and then popularized methods of getting cleric spells on wizards and demonstrated the raw power of metamagic cost reduction.

Aaron

@Lord_Gareth Yea but their reasoning is it still hits but shadows can't be hit so the whole world with just implode.

Inbar Rose

13:12

@Lord_Gareth Okay - can you provide a link so I can learn what this is you are talking about?

Lord_Gareth

What it did was modify a combust spell, then blow surge of fortune to auto-crit; you make some twitching motions because of all the quickened casting you just did, then touch a guy for 1.5k damage on the first round, repeats 1 round later.

Inbar Rose

ouch

Lord_Gareth

Searing Spell makes it 750/750 against fire-immune enemies

@Aaron Look at the "target" line, then slap your friends.

Aaron

@Lord_Gareth Jesus

Inbar Rose

What level is needed for that?

Aaron

13:14

@Lord_Gareth Lol. It is more of a joke than anything.

Lord_Gareth

@InbarRose 21 if you do it with no reducers, as low as 13 if you optimize specifically for it. It requires a lot of metamagic and was ultimately set aside as being inefficient.

The various Orb of spells got picked up as the mailman go-to, with enervate being popular against living targets not immune to energy drain.

Since with empower, maximize, split, and twin you can turn one enervate into an AoE save-or-die

And all of this is way above the level of play I like to rest at.

But it's been valuable stuff for me to learn because it's helped me comprehend the nuts-and-bolts of 3.5 and its child systems.

Which has been so great as a designer for them.

Since the idea is for my content to not do that if at all possible, y'know?

And it's also helped me as a player/GM because in studying optimization and the uses of 3.X's mechanics I've learned how to target a certain level of power and rest there, challenging players or participating in a campaign without overshadowing anyone else or feeling useless.

BESW

@Lord_Gareth This is a good goal.

Lord_Gareth

Though my go-to tends to be, "Take Warblade, select feats by flipping randomly through books and slamming my face against the page."

Since they're impossible to screw up.

Inbar Rose

ha.

Lord_Gareth

My very first Warblade I didn't have a clear character concept on because I got invited late to a campaign and made him in 20 minutes before the session started.

Had to get a sixth level character in 20 minutes, I was literally just picking maneuvers by if their name sounded cool and if I met the pre-reqs

EWP: Bastard Sword, Power Attack, Blind-Fight, Mage Slayer

Inbar Rose

13:24

I vaguely remember the particulars of the most optimization I ever made - but basically I really liked the idea of vorpal weapons insta-killing anything with a critical hit - so I built a monk character who with fury of blows and two weapon striking had 10 attack rolls per round, where each rolls critical threat range was 10-20 with vorpal weapons...

Lord_Gareth

Still T3

He also ended up being really fun to roleplay because he was the Only Normal Guy

Royal exile from elven lands (our wizard), ex-assassin hunted by the religious order he worked for (party swordsage), dwarven noble on a quest from Dwarf!God (Crusader) aaaand the son of a blacksmith who got into mercenary work so that he could retire rich and happy (me)

He made a great foil for the total insanity of what was going on in the campaign - divine super-weapons, planes-spanning plots, the fate of the afterlife in the balance, murdered gods

I still remember that during a dinner with the elven king he revealed aforementioned divine superweapons to us, at which point my character - Commander Kyllan Hammerson - politely excused himself, then went outside

Where he hit his knees and screamed, "MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES!"

Elven King: "...Is he okay?"

Wizard: "He does that a lot."

Inbar Rose

"Kyllan Hammerson" - great name :)

Lord_Gareth

@InbarRose Thirty seconds of thought. It was later pointed out that his first name sounded like, "Killin'."

At which point the party members made a point of introducing him as Commander Kyllan Manymen

Inbar Rose

That is exactly why I like it.

Lord_Gareth

Heh. The guy got promoted to the squad's leader honestly just because he had no conflicts of interest or baggage.

It also probably helped that he had a solid grasp of tactics, teamwork, and the ability to improvise a battle plan on the fly

Aaron

13:32

Aw. Sadface. Mailmen don't seem possible in Pathfinder from what I am reading.

Inbar Rose

good

power/munchkin gaming sucks. It's simply not how the game is meant to be played.

lisardggY

No, no, don't say the P word near @Lord_Gareth! :)

Seriously, though, @Lord_Gareth, I've heard many of your disappointments with Pathfinder. How do you feel they fared in this respect?

Aaron

@InbarRose munchkin?

lisardggY

Because I remember you said that PF pretty much failed dismally at bringing melee classes to par with spellcasters.

Zachiel

@Lord_Gareth do you think that's teachable?

lisardggY

13:36

@Aaron A player concerned only with powering up his character, with little or no regard to in-character justification, the rest of the party or the game's plot and narrative.

Aaron

@lisardggY They nerfed spellcasters but didn't up melee classes much from the comparisons I read.

Inbar Rose

Not directly - but a lot of the mechanics changes, extra character rules (like feats every 2 levels) make those other changes not the same in relation.

Aaron

@lisardggY Ah. I wouldn't do that but I want to learn to powergame for the reason @Lord_Gareth had. It teaches you how to see the various levels and keep that level of play as needed.

lisardggY

@Aaron A munchkin is always a powergamer, but a powergamer isn't necessarily a munchkin.

Aaron

@lisardggY Yea I gathered that XD. Powergamers can still have fun outside of mechanics while Munchkins are robot like only caring about the numbers on the sheet before them.

wax eagle

13:39

enter Stormwind

Aaron

So if I wanted to learn power gaming what should be the first thing I look up? Should I just google pathfinder powergaming?

lisardggY

@Aaron Also, munchkins are focused on their own amassing of power, at the expense of the rest of the game. A powergamer might build a Mailman From Hell(tm) because he wants to play that uber-blaster, to be a kick-ass blaster in the game.

Inbar Rose

brb

Zachiel

Bookmarked for future use: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/11/conversation/…

Trajan

Now I want to build a mailman for SR4.

Aaron

13:52

@Lord_Gareth So how long did it take you to master powergaming?

Lord_Gareth

Blarg sorry I had to AFK

My god all the questions

@lisardggY Can you clarify this question for me?

lisardggY

@Lord_Gareth We talked a while back about some of the promises that Paizo made for Pathfinder that that never lived up to, one of which was to give melee classes a fighting chance.

Lord_Gareth

@InbarRose I respectfully, yet vehemently, disagree. There is no 'wrong' way to play the game unless your style of play is causing other players/the DM to not have fun any more, or being disruptive to the group.

lisardggY

We already discussed how the melee classes weren't really buffed up significantly.

Was spellcasting nerfed? In a significant way?

Would you say that had some effect in balancing magic and non-magic classes?

Lord_Gareth

@lisardggY Not really. I mean, you can see places where they made an effort, but Paizo was focused on a couple of high-profile, low-level "target" spells in core such as grease or polymorph. The nerfs they did were significant, though in grease's case not nearly enough, but in most cases they failed to address the real problems.

And past 4th level spells nerfs are barely even present, only existing in sort-a-kinda forms for, again, high-profile spells like Gate

lisardggY

14:00

I saw some forum posts on how metamagic-based optimizations were nerfed.

Lord_Gareth

Due to the lack of certain kinds of metamagic, yes. However, they were also semi-buffed; arcane spellcasters have native, non-PrC cost reductions.

Paizo was very focused on damage-dealing options like shapeshift-melee and blasting, and those they managed to nerf fairly well.

But they didn't touch where the real power is.

Summoners, illusionists, battlefield controllers, they never even noticed the edition change.

They just kept rollin' on

Aaron

@Zachiel I am totally using this XD

lisardggY

Gotcha. Thanks.

Lord_Gareth

@Aaron I am not a master. I am barely even a student of the incomprehensible Lovecraftian horror that is 3.5 optimization. We speak of a system with more than 500 1st and 2nd party supplements.

All I can claim to have mastered is being able to think mechanically and extrapolate the consequences of an option on a character and within the game world.

@Zachiel It is teachable but the best environment for it is one in which you can experiment and work closely with a DM and/or a group that understands what you want to learn.

The folks you play with are not really that environment.

Aaron

@Lord_Gareth Ok. So where would you recommend I start to learn how to powergame? Should I work on building my own power builds or should I look at other powerbuilds and then reference them as I build different builds? Should I work on one class at a time or should I bounce from class to class?

Zachiel

14:08

@Lord_Gareth Have I mentioned I have a brand new pencil and paper group?

Aaron

I am actually type up a question on this if you want to answer there. @Lord_Gareth

Lord_Gareth

@Aaron That'd certainly save on time and chat bandwidth

Zachiel

I'm willing to be able to create challenging encounters for them

Lord_Gareth

@Zachiel Oh, hey, congrats. Well, you'll want to do some research and be prepared to think sideways. 3.PF is a very deceptive system in a lot of ways.

Honestly where I ended up starting was the simple desire to fight and/or run 'classical' enemies like demons, dragons, sorcerers, undead, etc.

And I was so frustrated with not being able to fight them/pit them against my PCs

Because they kept mopping the floor with people.

My quest for answers lead me to eventually become the player of RPGs that I am today.

Zachiel

It's also true I have a bigger problem to face first. This girl who has a very short experience of 4e, no idea about the level of fantasy involved in D&D 3.5, no idea of what is strong or weak or otherwise, but would like to play a necromancer. A good aligned one.

Lord_Gareth

14:12

@Zachiel This is actually not a bad place to start!

There Are Options For This

(It's 3.5 - there are almost always options for this)

Zachiel

We talked about dread necromancer and wizard (necromancer) and, while the variety of options seemed to be oh so confusing to her we settled on the wizard, for the possibility to change her spells as she learns about new ones and not having to control a whole bunch of minions

I'm going all manuals, no magazines

Lord_Gareth

@Zachiel Are minions a strict necessity for her or is she more interested in the idea of necromancy as it deals with death and negative energy?

Aaron

@Lord_Gareth Hmm. I am not sure how to build this question. So far all I am asking is where do I start with powerbuilds but it is a much larger question than that.

Lord_Gareth

@Aaron "How can I learn to think like an optimizer?" "How can I educate myself on 3.PF optimization?"

Zachiel

she likes the negative energy thing.

Lord_Gareth

14:16

@Zachiel Awesome, that makes this a lot easier.

Zachiel

Or so I'm understanding

Aaron

@Lord_Gareth Oh that helps thanks.

Zachiel

Yeah, because a lot of undead summoning spells are [evil]

Lord_Gareth

Okay, so, first - take every spell with the [Evil] descriptor and shoot it in the face. Well...except Deathwatch, please remove the descriptor from that

Because seriously why is that even there

Zachiel

who even takes deathwatch, I say

Lord_Gareth

14:17

The various spells to create undead are all evil. However, delightfully, the summon undead line are not, and morally speaking they're also a lot easier to justify since the undead is under your total control and returns from whence it came when you're done.

So if she likes minions there's Summon Undead I - V in Libris Mortis

Zachiel

I tought it could have been cool to use the skeleton instead of a familiar variant but I've never used variants so I can't gauge if it's good.

Aaron

Is this a Pathfinder game

Zachiel

no, D&D 3.5e

Aaron

Well if you can swing a 3.PF build there is a White necromancer... one second.

Lord_Gareth

Necromancers play a lot like blasters except they can only really hurt living opponents. There's some anti-undead spells and she should invest in those in order to put evil to rest.

Zachiel

14:19

(we have a necromancer, a crusader and maybe today I'm gonna discover what

Aaron

@Zachiel d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/kobold-press-open-design/…

You use diplomacy checks to ask the undead you summon to help you. Thus it is not an evil act.

Lord_Gareth

But for the others, you want to look into spells like negative energy ray and enervate, backing them up with empower, split ray, maximize, twin, and/or quicken to lay down the law. Consider investing in the Arcane Thesis feat for enervate just because it's a swift, merciful way to end an encounter

Zachiel

@Aaron I know, but I'm trying to stay 3.5 only, and with as less of a departure from original raw as I can. Two of the players are basically curious to see how 3.5 is different from 4e

Aaron

@Zachiel Ok.

Zachiel

@Lord_Gareth we start at level 1

Aaron

14:21

Just thought you might be interested :)

Lord_Gareth

Defensive spells and sideways offense are also highly suggested; consider investing in shadow conjuration, shadow evocation, dispel magic etc.

@Zachiel Then neg energy blasts go go

Spell Focus (Necromancy) won't go awry, there's lots of saving throws in that school.

[Ruminates]

Zachiel

I'm wondering what the Arcane Domain for necromancy could get her

Lord_Gareth

Tomb-Tainted Soul will let her heal herself if she's interested, but it means that positive energy blasts her like undead

Zachiel

heal with what?

Lord_Gareth

Her negative energy spells

It makes her heal like undead heal

Zachiel

14:23

I didn't realize wizards had inflict spells

Lord_Gareth

@Zachiel negative energy ray is the most basic.

Zachiel

becoming a necropolitan asap might be a good idea

Lord_Gareth

But wizard's got tons and tons of ranged neg energy options.

Yeah but necropolitian involves an [Evil] ritual so it might not be attractive to her

Hence suggesting tomb-tainted

Zachiel

@Lord_Gareth 3.0?

Lord_Gareth

@Zachiel Check spell compendium and libris mortis for most of the neg energy blasts

They're 3.5

Zachiel

14:24

@Lord_Gareth hah, never looked into it. That's why I fail at builds... I think things, then I discover they don't work

must go in 5 minutes

Lord_Gareth

At first level it's hard to go wrong with ray of enfeeblement and it'll stay with her for her whole career

Blindness/deafness, ghoul touch, and spectral hand are standouts for 2nd level if she has a non-flying familiar.

Aaron

0

Q: How do I learn to think like a power gamer/optimizer

Ok so before I get people saying I shouldn't focus on power building because it takes from the game I am only doing this to better learn the ins and outs of the system. I am the opposite of an optimizer and normally go by the rule of cool and wind up with mid to low powered characters. So how d...

pathfinder optimization

Lord_Gareth

Ray of Exhaustion is likewise a nice, spreadable debuff at 3rd; Vampiric Touch is a soft-blast option that you want to deliver at range if at all possible

4th level brings you bestow curse and enervate. Learn them, love them, live them

Never leave home without them

Skip 5th level necromancy

In core, anyway

Splats may have some

Zachiel

@Lord_Gareth I'm always wary of using my familiar to deliver spells. Familiars are frail.

At least the skeleton doesn't cost her xp if he is killed

Lord_Gareth

@Zachiel Every buff spell you cast on yourself also affects your familiar. Familiar are less frail when they're tooling around with all of your defenses.

Fun fact: this also means that when you turn into a dragon, your familiar can also turn into a dragon.

Because, y'know

Why have only one dragon?

2

Aaron

14:38

@Lord_Gareth I posted my question. Do you see any tweaks it needs before it can get a good answer?

Lord_Gareth

It's a little vague? Like, mid-to-low-powered by what metric? I tend to measure against Beastiary but what're you looking for?

Mind you I'm halfway through an answer.

Zachiel

still a dragon with half my hp (and yes my friends are late and I'm still here)

Aaron

@Lord_Gareth If I remove the mid to low level part but leave the rule of cool part would that mess up your answer?

IT would be "I am the opposite of an optimizer and normally go by the rule of cool."

Lord_Gareth

Not at all

@Zachiel Trust me, that doesn't have to matter. But spectral hand or archmage levels will deliver the ranged slap for you so you can use those instead

Aaron

Ok I removed it. I really don't know enough to personally know the power level of my character. I have been told my builds are mid level though.

Lord_Gareth

14:42

Mid level for one group is not mid level for all groups, or mid level for the meta, or for the potential power of the system.

Y'know?

These are different metrics

Aaron

@Lord_Gareth Yea. That is why I just removed it instead of trying to explain it.

Zachiel

@Lord_Gareth And that's why I feel my wizard still has things to learn, as his defenses are primarily HP boost and AC boost

Lord_Gareth

@Zachiel Miss chances, damage reduction, hard-counters, lockdown (solid fog, black tentacles), superior mobility and stealth are your friends.

Zachiel

I'm really bad at that one... how have you called it? Stealth XD

Inbar Rose

@Aaron Your question is very broad - you should narrow it down. All your questions are valid - but they seem like different questions. You should make it clear that your question is "How To: Optimizing characters in <X system>" and that those other questions you have are just samples of the kinds of things you want to know.

Aaron

14:45

@InbarRose I figured the pathfinder tag would say X system but I will put it in the question.

@InbarRose Done.

@InbarRose And really the question I am asking is system agnostic. I just want to know the thought process of optimizers which is probably the same system to system. The builds and such are different system to system but the actual thought process shouldn't be.

Inbar Rose

It is easier to ask a question about a specific system - even though it is agnostic, because you can get real examples - and you can cite specific cases.

Aaron

@InbarRose True. I see your reasoning now.

Lord_Gareth

AFK helping wife.

Aaron

Why did I get +8 rep from an upvote on my question? Don't they only give +5?

Inbar Rose

@Aaron magic

Trajan

14:51

maybe two upvotes and a downvote ?

Inbar Rose

@Trajan ssshhh magic.

Aaron

@Trajan How do I see if I have a downvote?

Trajan

@Aaron magic. [wink at @InbarRose]

Inbar Rose

~~You can't. Not enough rep yet. But yes - you have 1 downvote.~~ Magic.

Aaron

@InbarRose Huh. I wonder why they thought it downvote worthy. It isn't a bad of off topic question is it?

Inbar Rose

14:53

Too broad - badly formatted.

Trajan

@Aaron I think you can check your rep evolution by event

wax eagle

@Trajan yeah, it's in your profile, under "reputation"

Aaron

@InbarRose How can I improve the format?

Hehehe I have 666 rep

Inbar Rose

You could have put more time and energy into making a comprehensive question with some nice examples - expectations, and perhaps even some flashiness.

Trajan

@waxeagle Thanks for the bounty btw :)

Inbar Rose

14:56

Posting a question is not the same as a chat message. You don't need to just get your thoughts out as fast as possible - you need to take your time, format things, build structured thoughts and put them into nice paragraphs. Yours reads like a few lines of a text message.

wax eagle

@Trajan no problem I was happy both my bounties worked. I've still got a good bit of rep that's up for grabs if people nominate worthy questions

Aaron

@InbarRose I am really bad at asking questions. Is it possible to cancel a question so I can post it again only better?

Inbar Rose

Look at some of the successful questions on the site.

wax eagle

@Aaron you can delete it, edit it and undelete it if it doesn't have upvoted answers yet

Inbar Rose

@Aaron What he said. @waxeagle

Aaron

14:57

@waxeagle @Lord_Gareth is typing an answer but hasn't posted yet.

wax eagle

should be fine, you might warn him that you're going to delete it

Inbar Rose

@Aaron Tell him to put it on the side (like a notepad or something)

Alex P

You can also just edit it now

Aaron

@Lord_Gareth I am deleting the post for now so I can do some editing to the question.

Inbar Rose

@Aaron If you are ever confused about something - usually looking at examples helps. (incidentally - that is also the topic of your question - getting examples so you can learn how best to optimize)

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