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00:00 - 13:0013:00 - 00:00

12:10 AM
Oh, wait. That was a tags edit.
12:34 AM
@BESW done
I just received a Frosty hat - for going a whole day providing only upvotes - on the sites I regularly use... except for RPG.SE
I feel like an evil cackle .jpg would be appropriate but I can't find one
(I want to find out if there's an inverse version of that hat)
@JonathanHobbs Will you settle for a YouTube link?
@BESW goodness yes and this one especially. that is perfect.
excellent... a new day has begun on SE.
time to find out whether this negahat exists.
[commence manic laughter and evil stormy vortex as above]
@ProfessorLokiCaprion [wave]
12:52 AM
Hello, hello!
What is, as the youth are wont to say, "up"?
....sigh. I wish people wouldn't confusing downvotes and votes to close.
It's a good question! Just needs a bit of narrowing down.
Not a whole lot! I'm on my Surface in the living room with the wife while she paints Malifaux figures.
Spying on the process to learn more about gifting potential?
@ProfessorLokiCaprion iris.ponychat.net ?
Ah, thank you! What channel?
@BESW Nono, she's all gifted out!
12:56 AM
@Metool Iz wut?
I'm starting to doubt my choice of Carnivalist.
I'm doing my best not to say anything too cutting about the d20 System's ability to cast doubt and disappointment.
Well, of course.
But it's really more a social exercise, for me.
1:06 AM
Apparently ABP senses an ad on question pages.
> Share a link to this question via email, Google+, Twitter, or .
(I should probably disable ABP...)
1:48 AM
@Jadasc Hi!
Evening. :)
How goes things in here?
Not bad. Amused by hats.
It's a bowler, I think. Some kind of cunning hat.
So what does the stack-of-hats hat mean, anyway? It's listed as a "secret" hat on the page.
I have no idea!
I don't see any way to be told how I got my secret hat.
Have many other hats?
1:52 AM
I have 8 hats, two of which are secret.
I wish the hats were year-round, though!
I can see how it would be distracting.
@Metool I disable it on SE sites but I keep Ghostery on for everything but Gravatar to block tracking
@BESW It's a secret! But it is called Johnny Three-Hats, so there's a clue
Probably you need... three other hats! :D
the name is wonderful too, since it's a reference to the Mighty Boosh :)
1:55 AM
@JonathanHobbs That was actually my guess at the hat reason.
Sleep now.
(Johnny Two-Hats is a performer of legendary status. One of the protagonists, upon meeting him, asks him what the heck is up with the two hats, it makes him look like a berk. Johnny Two-Hats is visibly annoyed and put off.)
Sleep well!
(Much later on, when we next see Johnny, he's wearing three hats)
2:19 AM
Grumblemumble chicken dinner...
2:56 AM
specific system + actual problem ≠ his edit
New hat!
(I definitely placed it wrong.)
I will join you in passing judgement on the unworthy!
...whenever the app decides to migrate the change.
You've got to refresh on the webpage...
I did. A lot. It's good now.
3:12 AM
Space Ghost would join you but was stopped at the door to the court rooms and escorted off the premises to sober up.
@JonathanHobbs [actual laughing]
Judging people is cool and all, but... rep cap.
It's not even a cap.
But still.
It is snazzy.
@AlexP It is snazzy as all get out
I'm pulling a late workday. I guess it's more of a work night now.
(I has a cat!)
@AlexP What do you in your job? o:
@BESW I am glad you liked that as much as I did
3:26 AM
@JonathanHobbs Usually? Software development. Right now? Kinda-useless documentation.
I'm updating a bunch of old stuff that proves we did design work a long time ago.
@BESW I kinda want to suggest he just ask if one can still play D&D 4e with 3-4 players, if it's more manageable than 5, and if there's any major problems with it he'll have to deal with
@JonathanHobbs Give it a shot.
But something tells me we might already have a question for that
4:06 AM
@mrcleaver I suggest you edit your question to just ask what (I think) you really want to know: Can D&D 4e be played with 3-4 player characters, is it more manageable than having 5, and are there any major problems with playing that way that the DM will have to deal with? — Jonathan Hobbs 29 mins ago
I couldn't find any duplicate.
Woo! New question territory \o/
4:24 AM
The player thing is interesting. Beyond just, like, game mechanics.
I feel like there's an ideal number of players depending on what you want to do, in general.
Because of how group size changes the way people communicate.
Huh. You can adjust hats.
Man, they really put a lot of effort into this hat thing.
Yup, that's new this year!
Exporting anything to Microsoft Word format is hell.
4:46 AM
Anything having to do with Microsoft Word is likely to be rather brimstone-y.
Programmatically anything-ing with Microsoft Excel is brimstoney too.
I have this big-ass terrible graphical design model thingy, right? Which is in annoying super-proprietary format so of course to distribute it anywhere we have to export it. In this case, to Word.
Anyway, embedded in the model are small MS Word documents. Like as hyperlinks.
When you're writing a program to deal with Excel... everything in a workbook is a range of cells, including a single cell. I spent a few hours earlier on in the year trying to figure out how to read cells in a very simple Excel sheet and gave up.
It is smart enough to turn all those into in-line text when you export them.
But I've spent an hour massaging the documents to make them not be terrible.
Forcing all the Heading style things to be correct so they don't murder the table of contents.
@AlexP Oh dear.
4:50 AM
Then on top of that all of the lists are one list, somehow. And I've done everything I can to fix that in the source documents and it does nothing. So I think I just have to go through the generated doc and press "restart list" on every page.
Oh dear indeed.
You have all my empathies.
Hahaha. It just got confused and the middle of the TOC is a full-page diagram. Because the diagram got styled as a Heading by accident.
Fully a quarter of many of my jobs is nothing but screaming at the Word documents from the client until I can get them into a shape that InDesign will accept.
I have seen Word reformat a document just because the doc was closed and re-opened.
And yes. Styles.
I spent a month sitting down comparing a Word document with XML to make sure we were implementing a spec correctly.
Like, just tables and tables.
I seem to be the only person I've ever met who knows what a "style" is.
4:56 AM
It leaves you wondering why the spec isn't just published as XML.
I mean, it's literally 200 pages of tables describing machine-readable data. Why isn't the specification machine-readable???
Because arglblurgephurfen.
@BESW [pictures BESW opening a Word document and unleashing a mighty bellow of fury and grief at it and sustaining said bellow for five minutes, whilst all the characters and styles on the page shake around and cower into an orderly arrangement]
Best. Superpower. Ever.
@BESW amazingly useful at crowded malls
or in crowds in general
If I knew more about Skyrim, I'd make a fus-ro-dah joke.
5:07 AM
There's not much more to know about it, really.
You say "fus-ro-dah"
...and defiance.
@BESW I had to google that one.
Brian knows it.
5:19 AM
Brian knows many things. He hasn't quite grasped the idea of days of the week, though.
That is a tricky one.
We've basically gone into a full-on reproduction of the Holy Hand Grenade sketch this week, but with days. "Wednesday is the third day. It is neither the second day, nor the fourth day. Three is the number of Wednesday."
....I heard that in Xander's "pretending to be Giles" voice.
...probably not too far off...
5:39 AM
I have suddenly remembered that on the other side of the planet from me, in Canada, for two weeks a few times a year, a LARP group meets. Once or twice a year, a friend of mine will have flown in from the UK to join them. For two weeks, they will camp, fight, roleplay, sneak around, spy, ambush, develop shared stories within and between their factions, advance the game world, and remain in character for almost the whole time. Then they go home.
I want to join them one day fortnight.
personally, I never saw the appeal of IRL larp
@trogdor Me neither, but from the way this person talks about it, it really sounds like this group has something amazing.
I sorta like to act online, during a role-playing game session, or in front of a crowd in a play,.. but for some strange reason it does not apeal to me in a Larp specific form
until this year, you might even have called me prejudiced about it
I think the real reason, at this point, is probably the nonstop nature of it. there isn't a specific line, or set of lines, and moves you do, and then you exit stage left. everyone keeps going until the whole group is done, (unless your character dies I suppose)
but the fact that it isn't necessarily behind closed doors is also a factor I am sure
@trogdor That's actually a point of appeal to me. It would be a couple of weeks of being almost entirely in some different way of doing things. Story stuff appeals to me, acting appeals to me, playfighting appeals to me.
@trogdor that would definitely leave me feeling a bit shy at first, but since everyone there is doing it and there is simply nobody else there - they are pretty much camping out in the remote wilderness - means it's not an issue. (who're you going to be embarrassed in front of? the people doing exactly the same thing?)
In an alternate reality I am probably a method actor.
5:56 AM
it isn't just embarrasement
though that is a contributing factor
it sorta ties back into the lines thing
before a play I can rehearse
and during a game of, for example D&D, I can think for a few seconds before I decide what my character is doing
@JonathanHobbs and actually, I have found myself being embarrassed in front of people doing the exact same thing as me before
it isn't anywhere near as bad, to be sure, but I am just like that
I have had to work pretty hard, my whole life, to be a sociable person
@trogdor there is an observation that goes something like: people put in a tremendous amount of energy just trying to be like other people
i guess if i were there i would just throw myself into it without reservation, since it's a closed world in which everyone's doing the same thing
but then again i can be pretty self-assured and stuff
which is a quality i've had to work to develop
I dunno how I would really react for sure in the given situation
I'm back. And done with my terrible terrible task, at least for today.
@AlexP [offers eggnog]
but sitting in the comfort of my own home, my above statements are my general observation
6:07 AM
I like the idea of improvisational immersion, but I wouldn't want to do it for so long at a stretch.
I don't think I could really get into traditional LARP because I don't do that much continuous being-there play. When I do tabletop I'm aware of, like, scenes and stakes and stuff.
Not that I avoid immersion but that I don't think of the game as one continuous long take, you know?
Though I've heard LARP has branched out from that style, too. Like the Scandinavian stuff.
@AlexP IIRC they do break character occasionally through the course of the LARP to arrange actual scenes. sometimes something happens, and people just say: "ok. we need to arrange something around this."
I vaguely recall there is something like a GM overseeing the thing who will do that themselves
@JonathanHobbs That makes sense. Though I imagine with LARP there's still more "playing it out" than I do in tabletop.
same here, I think
but I say that knowing I don't know much actual information about the particulars of how it works
The Jeep LARP stuff is crazy. It's like, "Pause the scene while a spectator walks over to you and whispers a secret from your past" or "Redo this scene again, but now it is happening like this instead of like that."
It's a very different way of looking at LARP.
Borrowing a lot more from improv (at the expense of the "reenactment-like" quality of it).
I've done historical reenactment stuff but not really "in character" beyond saying a few stock phrases.
The thing that keeps me from getting more into it, besides the costume expense, is that I don't like camping. And RevWar is all about camping, as far as I know.
I knew a guy who really liked the boffer LARP stuff. Dagorhir is the name of the big (US East Coast) event, I think?
6:16 AM
@AlexP I have not heard of this!
@AlexP that is a confident way for them to describe themselves
@JonathanHobbs That's me paraphrasing Lizzie Stark paraphrasing them. :)
@AlexP Chinese whispers of people not really knowing what's going on (beginning with and including the people doing it). Excellent!
6:22 AM
The main reason I read about LARP-ish stuff is that it has an overlap with post-Forge indie stuff. Like, a lot of the women from the old Forge discussions have done Jeep-type LARP in various ways since then. And there's always a couple of interesting LARP people in discussions about social contract and communication on Story-Games and similar sites (I ran into a bunch of cool stuff while looking up good links for the "lines and veils" discussion today).
what little I know at all is basically hearsay
2 hours later…
8:06 AM
@BESW @Metool link, here: johnjoseco.deviantart.com/art/…
1 hour later…
9:36 AM
Tweets to Campaign By has nothing to add. It wishes it had this girl as its next GM.
'I'm not frightened of *this* dark, daddy. I'm frightened of the dark up in the sky... because that's coming down here soon.'
Oh, my.
9:55 AM
Whoops I upvoted stuff
My reign of stormy chaos will have to be delayed until tomorrow
10:06 AM
@JonathanHobbs How disappointing.
10:20 AM
In better news, Space Ghost has a souvenir!
....why does Space Ghost look like a member of The Village People?
@BESW I think it's the fantastic chin.
(did someone in the village people have a fantastic chin? I'm not really an expert on this)
Probably. I'm not an expert either.
Although it's sort of interesting from a sociohistorical perspective.
10:53 AM
@Rizstien Hi!
11:04 AM
@BESW hi
@Rizstien What brings you to this odd corner of the Stack?
nothing was just wandering around saw this chat rea of stackexchange. was exploring what u guys discuss in these rooms
chat area*
@Rizstien Anything but RPGs ¬ ¬
why not RPG ?
Ostensibly our topic is tabletop RPGs (like Dungeons & Dragons), but we range all over the place.
@Rizstien Phil is being cute.
11:09 AM
Awww, he called be cute blushes
why everyone is quiet
'cuz some of us aren't here and some like me are doin' stuff :D
how dare you do........Stuff!
Right now it's mostly the Western Pacific folks online. It'll lighten up in a couple hours when the American crowd gets to work and logs on.
I don't know enough about Pathfinder to be able to tell whether there is enough information in this question...
Q: High Int Pally Build?

user10129I'm looking to make a combat effective 'high' (14) Int Paladin for PFS. Any thoughts on class dips, archetypes and feats to make it effective? I enjoy playing with people's preconceptions of certain classes so it seemed like a smart Paladin would make many players stop and think about Paladins in...

11:18 AM
There is absolutely definitely not enough information on that question
Would someone who understand the system post a comment explaining why it is going to be closed until edited?
Someone will come across it soon, I'm sure
11:54 AM
No no no...
Ahh, you mean Fwooooooooooooh! No need to feel embarrassed, its a common mistake
I'll slap that Pally question around later, but I have a few answers.
All of them, 'No.'
Though some of them read further, 'No, and PFS is really the absolute worst place to try this too.'
And there may be an, 'And furthermore you're probably going to find out that 3.PF is a pretty crappy place to try this kind of experimentation too unless you're ready to refluff a Magus or something.'
12:13 PM
Uhum. Stick to the answer, avoid the editorializing.
(And don't answer it at all until it's a good question.)
@BESW - "This system is bad at what you're aiming at," isn't editorializing, it's advice. It'd be the same if someone wanted to use FATE for their hyper-realistic tactical combat concept
Ze tools
Are not zere
Frankly though the question seems good enough for me; he wants an Int-focused paladin that can participate in PFS scenarios 'effectively', which generally means with a certain chance for survival and able to contribute to the party
That PFS bit is kinda important
It denotes a series of expectations
There's a difference between "bad at what you're aiming at" and "really the absolute worst place to try this." One is relatively objective and helpful, the other is a rant.
@DarkHorse Hi!
@BESW hi also
The big reason PFS is the worst place to try it is the point buy, @BESW; Pathfinder's point buy is fairly hostile to begin with but PFS kinda takes the cake on not handing out enough resources for non-casters to do weird stuff.
(As usual Wizard goes for Int and doesn't give one lonely solitary damn)
12:26 PM
Stupid Question: What's PFS?
Pathfinder Society, a 'living campaign' setup for Pathfinder
But different from Pathfinder itself?
Fun note: 'official' Pathfinder playstyle, heavily houseruled
See the 'houseruled' comment
PFS has enough houserules in it that it's hard to compare it to normal PF play
I see! o.o Peculiar.
Reams of options are gutted, banned, or altered beyond recognition and a ton of the 'scenarios' they use are railroaded more than a train movie.
Which can make building a character...frustrating.
12:27 PM
Seems you don't care for it much! :O
What, me? No. It's just that whenever I hear the name my hate flares with the fury of ten thousand dying suns screaming their last defiance at the universe that birthed them just to glory in their pointless, miserable deaths.
Indeed, sounds like a delightful way to play
I am in no way bitter or upset about the horrific gaming culture that cesspit spreads.
@ProfessorLokiCaprion Gareth has a well-documented history of frothing, foaming disgust for all most things Pathfinder.
Hello Lord
Hello everybody else as well
12:30 PM
@Zachiel Hmph. I see where I stand.
@BESW - That's not completely true. I'm now writing for one of the only producers of Pathfinder content that I don't hate ^_^
@Lord_Gareth Fixed.
Dreamscarred Press's psionics content is amazing. Like, "I wish they'd written this for WotC" amazing.
I'm on their team for Path of War
Now I must flee
@BESW You stand where you usually do. Lord_Gareth is like the prodigal son, back after a long time.
@Lord_Gareth ttfn
12:35 PM
Well, seems Pathfinder Society occupies a rung higher on the hate-ladder than regular Pathfinder, and I didn't even know there was a difference until... 10 minutes ago.
I should probably know more, going in.
I think there's so much gamebreaking material in D&D 3.PF that some houseruling is needed in every campaign. What PFS does is giving a common set of (hopefully working) house rules for all the partecipants of this big, multi-DM campaign.
I know really well how frustrating it is to build characters under unusual house rules but at least PFS is famous enough to have lots of people who knows them
@ProfessorLokiCaprion The whole 3.PF thing is messy, and a lot of it isn't well documented.
Trying to adhere to an existing and playable set of HRs, I once ran a pencil & paper campaign using only Living Forgotten Realms rules (no polymorph, a wide list of bans) and there were still encounter-breaking characters in it.
I hope PFS has better designers (but given the precedents I guess not).
There's a great deal of meta context that never makes it into any of the books.
Ah, so it's supposed to be like a network of co-existing games?
12:43 PM
@ProfessorLokiCaprion Iiiiish but not really or not at all depending on who you ask.
Like the OWoD Camarilla LARPs?
My understanding is largely second- and third-hand, but I can try to give a Cliff's notes of how I see it.
If it's anythingh like LFR was, it's just different tables in every corner of the world, you go there with your character sheet when some adventure of adequate level is gonna be DM'ed and you join it, getting XP and items. Adventures are built for the format, DMs are supposedly trained to distribute goods and XP evenly
We're here to discuss, after all! :D
Oh, I thought it was like where DMs got together, discussed what happened, and it affected the larger game world as a whole.
WotC got the D&D license and put out 3rd Edition. It showcased their brand-new d20 System and made a lot of people mad, as all new editions do, but it also pleased many people. Its shining feature was to consolidate nearly all rolls under the aegis of the 1d20.
12:45 PM
Torg used to do that, pre-internet days, and it was pretty fantastic.
I don't really know about PFS but the worldwide set of HR makes me think it's a LFR-like thing
But 3rd Edition was not very solid; it had lots of holes and bugs and flaws, to the point that in order to save the franchise they felt the need to create a 4th Edition.
@BESW As someoen who last played AD&D, I do think some rules cleanup was very necessary!
@BESW Which made a lot of people mad, as all new editions do, but it also pleased many people.
...but 3rd Edition hadn't been out for very long yet, and releasing a whole new edition so quickly would've shown a lack of confidence and been franchise suicide.
So they made it D&D 3.5 instead.
3.5 is a nip-and-tuck update of 3.0, slightly better polished on the edges but without any major structural changes.
12:48 PM
Oh you're talking about 3.5... which didn't fix the holes, bugs and flaws save for a few, and changed many things just because
3.5 is better balanced than 3.0, which should tell you something about how awfully balanced 3.0 was.
Better balanced?
Like in "now Geas just deals you damage if you don't obey, instead of forcing you to obey no matter what"?
3.5 crusaded on for another four or five years, gathering an absolutely inane amount of official expansion material, but it had something really cool going for it: the OGL.
Or like in "Now Harm is capped and has a save"?
Ahhh, OGL! :D
12:50 PM
By releasing the core material of D&D 3.5 under an Open Gaming License, Wizards created a positive business relationship with a number of third-party companies who could also release expansion material! Legally!
And allowing Pathfinder to be born
Most third-party expansion material was rightly looked at askance; the vast majority of it was poorly tested and really quite silly, either low-quality fan material or the work of companies who just wanted to make a quick buck.
But the company Paizo got a reputation for high quality third-party material with a unique and fun look at the D&D universe.
Paizo was also in charge of Dragon Magazine IIRC
12:53 PM
Then, as the income from 3.5 expansion materials was waning, Wizards was bought by Hasbro. In order to make D&D profitable enough to keep Hasbro from axing the franchise, Fourth Edition was born.
(This is actually very fascinating for me, but I didn't want you to take my silence as me no longer paying attention, so I insert this line.)
@BESW I remember Hasbro shutting down the WotC stores, which upset me.
4e was originally pitched as a tabletop system and an online virtual tabletop system and an MMORPG, with TCG elements, just to be sure Hasbro's execs would believe it had enough cash legs.
4e made a lot of people mad, as all new editions do, but it also pleased many people.
However, the people it made mad were now a marketable resource, which they weren't so much in the early days of 3.0.
These people who had enjoyed 3.5, were suspicious of 4e's MMO allegiances, and didn't want their 7 years of expensive expansion materials to become useless, were ripe for seduction by Paizo.
In an absolutely brilliant move, Paizo wooed a great number of 3.5ers with the promise of "3.5, but better!"
Mmmmhhhh if they go to PF they're still losing on their expensive manuals.
They pledged to fix the common complaints that 3.5 users had about their system, without making it unrecognizable. Pathfinder rules are still largely compatible with 3.5 content, so expansion books from 3.5 aren't useless.
And they brought a whole new (but not different enough to be alienating) D&D-like world setting for their new customers to explore.
Sadly, in order to keep Pathfinder enough like 3.5 to ease the transition, Paizo was unable to fix most of the core problems with the d20 System. They did make a great deal of headway in bandaging many of the issues, but couldn't really get to the source so it keeps bubbling up.
Still, for people who want a 3.5-like experience that continues to release new content, Pathfinder is ideal.
So Pathfinder isn't D&D, by the strictest definition?
12:59 PM
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