TRPG General Chat

Metool

00:01

Wax cat?

Alex P

Like waxing the cat?

Metool

Also,

It would appear you can't reskin Pathfinder mechanics.

BESW

Metool

@BESW What does that mean?

BESW

In the game Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis, there's a point where you need to find an object to continue. It could be in any one of about five different locations, randomly chosen each time you play the game.

Alex P

00:04

@Metool Looks like a point-and-click adventure.

Still not as stupid as Gabriel Knight.

Metool

@AlexP I am familiar with the genre.

Alex P

With the cat moustache.

BESW

One of those locations is inside a wax copy of an Egyptian cat statuette, which you melt in the furnace to get the object.

Whether the object is inside the cat or not on any particular play-through, you can pick up the cat and melt it in the furnace.

...or you can just pick it up and carry it.

If the object isn't inside the cat (and thus you don't have to melt it in order to continue), you can carry the cat for about 2/3 of the game before you hit a point where your inventory resets and you lose it.

Now, this is an item-collection puzzle game. Things you pick up are always going to be useful.

Objects that can go into your inventory will eventually be useful.

...except, in about 4 out of every 5 games, the wax cat.

Metool

Uh-huh...

BESW

There are a number of puzzles where a wax cat seems like it might be useful or appropriate, or at least amusing, but it's not. You're stuck with a useless wax cat in your inventory.

Alex P

00:08

Gabriel Knight 3: Cat Mustache.

BESW

Everything about the game says you should eventually be rewarded for having a wax cat: it will be needed someday. But instead it just quietly vanishes from your inventory after spending the majority of the game as a red herring.

wax cat (n): Something in a game which appears important but is not, without actually being intended as a red herring.

3

Riven had a stationary wax cat in its first iteration; player testing made them take it out.

The game was big on atmosphere and showing rather than telling, so they put a book press next to the enormous wood chipper/boiler/pulper for making paper, to emphasize the purpose of the area for the locals.

... but many player-testers didn't know what a book press was, and thought it was a puzzle they had to solve.

I've wax catted my RPG players by accident on occasion.

Metool

hrum

Can I read more on TVTropes Wiki?

BESW

If they talk about wax catting, they have their own term for it.

"Wax cat" is my own terminology.

Metool

I can't find anything fitting...

Was it particularly common?

BESW

I don't play enough video/computer games to know.

One problem is that a lot of item-collection games make you wait a long time before you find the right use for an item, which produces a lot of emotional false positives.

Oblivious Sage

00:22

the tvtropes equivalent appears to be What Happened to the Mouse?

BESW

That's more of a dropped plot thing, but yeah. Similar.

Oblivious Sage

I'm thinking about protecting this question. Opinions on the matter?

BESW

Do it.

Looking at the deleted questions, it seems like every time it rises to the top of the queue it gets something of low quality from a newish user.

Metool

@ObliviousSage +1

Oblivious Sage

"I did it!" "Did what?" "It." "What's it?" "It's done."

Metool

01:20

[7:18pm] Slayah: so apparently flammable and inflammable mean the same thing
[7:18pm] Slayah: also my kitchen privileges have been revoked

BESW

01:50

"Flammable" was created as a safer variant because too many people thought "inflammable" came from the prefix "in-" meaning "not," rather than from the word "inflame."

Unfortunately, that just reinforced the idea that "inflammable" is the opposite of "flammable," because now "flammable" is a word.

doppelgreener

02:16

What does ISTR stand for..?

Metool

I seem to recall?

/[guess]

doppelgreener

ok welp good

there was an answer referencing ISTR, I thought it was some acronym for a book

Alex P

02:35

Today on Hurray for Viking Stuff: longhouse is long.

BESW

►

doppelgreener

@AlexP Hooray for Viking Stuff!

Alex P

As my friend would say, "That's good norsery!"

Metool

Billy Mays promotes Thanksgiving.

This is a wonderful message, and a surprise considering the corner of YouTube it's from.

BESW

02:56

[blink]

As heartwarming as that is, I twitch a little when people make up random meanings for holidays.

Metool

Indeed.

user61230

03:22

Hello!

Alex P

Hello!

user61230

How go?

BESW

@Emrakul I go like this.

Alex P

@BESW Rugburn on your face, got it.

user61230

Ow.

Alex P

03:30

@Emrakul I played around with crapping out Emrakuls into play on turn 2-3 (Legacy). And I have to admit that Grizzlebees is just cooler.

That is what I did today.

user61230

That's interesting. I'm hard to get onto a field within any reasonable timeframe, so yeah.

Alex P

@Emrakul Well, Show and Tell even has a picture of a tentacle monster on the card. ;)

Anyway, also, norsery. I'm still being lazy by not reading Sagas of the Icealnders yet.

user61230

ooooh gotta add that one to my list

BESW

Isealnder (n): Either the native of a land known for its pinnipeds, or a man who's really handy with a caulk gun.

The Oracle

07:00

0

Q: Should the [gm] tag be burninated?

I've been looking through the gm tag, and it looks to me like it's not a particularly useful tag. Here are my thoughts: The tag is not specific enough, as it doesn't say much about the question.. Saying that it has something to do with the GM doesn't really help anyone in looking for questions....

Metool

@TheOracle +1

BESW

08:23

@MunchyWilly Hi!

MunchyWilly

08:47

Hello, sorry I closed the wrong tab w/o realizing it!

user61230

@Munchy Welcome to StackExchange!

MunchyWilly

Thank you, I think these group of websites are pretty awesome.

2

user61230

Hey, so do I /grin

BESW

Flattery will get you... quite a bit, actually.

user61230

Where're you from, if you don't mind me asking?

MunchyWilly

08:53

Not at all. Utah, USA

user61230

Interesting! I'm in California [waves from a couple thousand miles away]

BESW

Guam, here. [waves from even further away]

MunchyWilly

Nice! I'm 99% confident I couldn't locate Guam on a map. California, on the other hand, HA.

BESW

When I went to South Carolina for college, I was told that Guam is off the coast of Peru, in the Gulf of Mexico, and somewhere in the Middle East.

user61230

Utah, HA! (It's a new war chant)

BESW

08:59

@Emrakul The Sontarans would like a chat with you.

MunchyWilly

LOL. (And classy chant as well). So I just wikipedia'd Guam... does it have an indigenous population or is it primarily Americans?

user61230

Mind telling them I say SO CRO BLO HO KO DO TO PO?

BESW

Chamorro people

The Chamorro people, or Chamoru people, are the indigenous peoples of the Mariana Islands, which are politically divided between the United States territory of Guam and the United States Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands in Micronesia. Today, significant Chamoru populations also exist in several U.S. states including Hawaii, California, Washington, Texas, Tennessee and Nevada. According to the 2000 Census, approximately 65,000 people of Chamoru ancestry live on Guam and another 19,000 live in the Northern Marianas. Another 93,000 live outside the Marianas in Hawaii and the We...

MunchyWilly

Ah, fascinating.

BESW

Sorry I'm a little erratic in my chatting; I'm putting together dinner for my folks.

MunchyWilly

09:20

No worries, I got reading about the Chamorro language and then I'm still trying to figure out when enhancement bonuses to magic weapons (that aren't implements) apply, as well as any associated powers.

BESW

One of my current projects (I'm a graphic designer) works closely with the Chamorro orthographies.

And yeah, if I get a chance in the next couple days I'll try to put together an answer for you on that.

As I understand it, the key is in keywords.

MunchyWilly

Oh, cool. Yeah I found it very interesting to see the 'å' character used in a Polynesian orthography - I don't know of any other related language that uses that diacritic.

BESW

If the power has the weapon keyword, and only if the power has the weapon keyword, does a weapon enchantment (enhancement bonuses and other features) apply to that power. Ditto with the implement keyword and implement enchantments.

MunchyWilly

That makes sense. And in addition to having it apply to those powers with those keywords, one must also be proficient in the weapon to be eligible for the enhancement bonus and other features?

BESW

I'll have to double-check, but my memory is that only weapons have proficiency bonuses, they only apply to powers with the weapon keyword, and they have nothing to do with whether enhancement bonuses can be applied.

But let me double-check the details.

(And re-read your question.)

MunchyWilly

09:30

Okay. That might be where I'm erring, by conflating weapon proficiency with that. I see what you're saying, that they might not have anything to do with each other.

BESW

Yeah, "proficiency bonus" and "proficiency with <weapon/implement>" are different.

You need proficiency with a weapon in order to benefit from its proficiency bonus.

reading.

Okay, here's the skinny. Keth says it in his answer, but it's kinda buried and implied.

You need to be proficient with an implement in order to add its enhancement bonus to attacks and damage with implement powers. You do not need to be proficient with a weapon in order to add its enhancement bonus to attacks and damage with weapon powers, but you don't get its proficiency bonus to the attack roll.

MunchyWilly

Got it.

BESW

In either case, you can only add the enhancement bonus of one item at a time to an attack unless you have a rules exception which says otherwise.

I arrived at this conclusion because the magic implement rules say you need to be proficient for the enhancement bonus, but the magic weapon rules don't.

Permission by omission is sloppy, but has solid precedent.

MunchyWilly

That makes a lot more sense.

Well and it also works because anyone can pick up any weapon and use it without a penalty, you just don't get a bonus, right?

What D&D should have done is call implement proficiency and armor proficiency one thing and then weapon proficiency another, where the first is an 'eligibility' and the last is just access to bonuses, in my opinion.

BESW

@MunchyWilly Let me confirm that.

(3.5 imposed awful penalties for nonproficiency, and I want to make sure I'm remembering 4e correctly.)

Yes, looks like that's correct.

MunchyWilly

09:43

Awesome.

BESW

@MunchyWilly Yeah, 4e carried some unfortunate terminology baggage from previous traditions.

@Problematic [wave]

We found you a fellow Utahian.

MunchyWilly

It's probably not as troublesome if you're familiar with the earlier versions, so that might explain some of the difficulties I had.

BESW

@MunchyWilly M'rr. If anything, it's worse, because so much has changed.

"Save" means something TOTALLY different in 4e than it ever did before.

MunchyWilly

Oh yeah? Hah. Again, I had no idea.

Hi Problematic, from Logan, UT. Are you in the state also?

BESW

In 3.5, Fortitude, Reflex, and Will were "saves" instead of defenses. If someone attacked your mind, instead of them attacking you, you'd be forced to make a "Will save" to shrug it off by rolling a d20 and adding your Will save modifier.

MunchyWilly

09:48

Thanks for helping me sort this all out, by the way, I really appreciate it.

BESW

My pleasure.

I'll turn it into an answer later tonight if I can.

MunchyWilly

Oh interesting. My first time playing D&D was earlier this year - we played 3.5e rules but to be honest I had no idea what I was doing. The group was really helpful and I had a ton of fun, but I really didn't learn much about 3.5 or my class (cleric).

BESW

Ooof. They gave you a primary casting class as your introduction to RPGs?

I mean, there are a few around here who think that's a good idea but I'm not one of them.

MunchyWilly

It was what the party needed, but honestly I think I was more a hindrance than anything. I even drowned once, lol.

BESW

Clerics are very powerful but in D&D-like games power comes from choice.

As a general rule in D&D, the more choices a character has available to it, the more powerful the character becomes.

And new players generally need to have their choices well-defined and kept to a manageable number until they've learned the framework of the system.

This is why my go-to introductory class in 4e was the fighter (slayer) from Essentials.

MunchyWilly

09:53

That makes sense. I was so overwhelmed that I basically didn't make any choices and just did as I was told.

BESW

3.5 is all about choices, and one of its greatest features (or failings, depending on your desired game experience) is that it's relatively easy to make bad choices... but with effort you can make choices that make your character totally overpowering.

MunchyWilly

I didn't really have the resources or time to learn the class better, either, so that was unfortunate. Plus the group was only together for the summer so there wasn't a lot of free time to design the character or to wait for me to begin with.

BESW

Whereas while in 4e you have to work pretty hard to make a character really good or really bad.

(I spent about 7 years in 3.5, which is the RPG I started with, then did 4e for two years.)

MunchyWilly

Right. Do you have a preference between the editions? I chose 4e for our group since it seemed simpler (and they were the books I had access to), so I didn't really make a conscious choice between the two. Plus the group is all new to D&D - I'm the most experienced one with my short summer campaign.

BESW

4e was much better for my group.

It alleviated a lot of the specific problems we'd had in 3.5, but ultimately we discovered that our fundamental issue wasn't with 3.5; it was with D&D.

D&D of any edition just isn't built to easily support the kind of game experience we want.

4e is an awesome tactical combat engine, perhaps the best RPG tactical combat engine available.

MunchyWilly

09:59

Oh interesting. What is it that your group desired that D&D didn't do well?

BESW

@MunchyWilly At its simplest, stories and characters that aren't focused almost exclusively on combat.

4e is great at doing combat, and we loved combat in 4e.

3.5 is also almost totally focused on combat, but it doesn't have the honesty 4e brings about that.

3.5 keeps trying to delude itself about being able to handle any kind of story or campaign.

D&D doesn't have robust mechanics for non-combat conflict resolution, and it's not very interested in them.

MunchyWilly

That makes sense given my limited experience. We've had a few skill encounters that I think are a little awkward. I'm sure a lot of that comes from my inexperience at running them, but it seems like they could be structure better to be more natural or free-form.

BESW

When you spend 90% of your character creation and leveling up time making choices that are only good in combat, combat is going to be your default response to any situation.

Skill challenges are a good idea, but they're implemented pretty poorly.

There are a number of player-made variants out there; I used Stalker0's Alternate Core Skill Challenge System.

MunchyWilly

Good point about the character creation process, I hadn't thought about it like that, either.

Thanks for the link, I'll have to read that.

BESW

@MunchyWilly When all you've got is a fireball, everything is inflammable.

MunchyWilly

10:05

Lol.

So what system did your group move to?

BESW

Well, simultaneously with the conclusion of my 4e campaign, most of the group left island or got too busy to play.

So right now one friend and I are exploring the Fate Core system.

MunchyWilly

And do you like it? Is it more robust out of combat?

BESW

It's very exciting. After nine years of trying to bend D&D into a shape more like the kind of game I wanted to play, it's quite liberating to play in a game that's shaped almost exactly that way already.

Fate Core's conflict resolution system is equally robust for any kind of conflict: physical, mental, social, economic, you name it.

It's a more narrative system, less concerned with realistically simulating some version of reality (which D&D tries to do when convenient, and ignores when not convenient) and more interested in creating interesting and dramatic stories.

What kind of game is Fate?

Jul 24 at 7:43, 22 minutes total – 43 messages, 5 users, 0 stars

Bookmarked Aug 26 at 15:00 by BESW

MunchyWilly

That sounds interesting - I'll have to read up on it. I think my group could benefit from this as well. I'd like them, upon encountering some monsters, to sometimes consider doing something other than slaughtering them all.

BESW

A couple of rpg.se citizens are experimenting with bringing Fate concepts into 4e, or adjusting Fate to have the D&D elements they like.

One nice thing about Fate Core is that it's free online.

A major hurdle to switching systems is often the cost--both the sunk costs on the manuals you've bought for the system you're currently using, and the price of the new system.

MunchyWilly

10:15

Yeah I just noticed that, so I'll definitely look into it.

BESW

There are so many different RPGs, it can be a little overwhelming.

But it's also very liberating. I thought largely in terms of D&D, World of Darkness, and Spycraft as my options for many years.

MunchyWilly

True. I just wish I had come to the RPG nook of the gaming spectrum years ago - I had no idea what I was missing!

BESW

Now I've looked into Do: Temple of the Flying Pilgrims, Dogs in the Vineyard (and its less intense mod The Princes' Kingdom) , The Dresden Files RPG (a Fate-based game), Mouse Guard (a Burning Wheel mod), My Life With Master...

I've got a side project (among many) of either making a Fate mod for a Friendship is Magic game, or designing a whole new system for it.

MunchyWilly

Is Friendship is Magic another rpg system?

BESW

Ah, no. It's a cartoon show.

@MunchyWilly I wanted to try tabletop RPGs in high school, but didn't know anyone I wanted to play with who was into them.

MunchyWilly

10:22

Ha. I don't watch a lot of TV. In fact I don't really watch any TV.

BESW

Luckily in college I made some friends who demanded that I GM for them.

MunchyWilly

D&D has also been on my radar for a while, but I was never friends with anyone that I knew that played either (though I'd find out that they played after they had already moved away).

Better late than never, though, right?

BESW

Oh, indeed.

MunchyWilly

BESW, thanks again for the fun and informative chat. It's dinnertime in Guam but it's very late where I am (early, rather) so I need to get to bed. It's been a pleasure!

BESW

@MunchyWilly Goodnight! See you around.

Metool

10:39

@BESW How's that even going, anyway?

BESW

@Metool Slowly. My creative energies are currently focused elsewhere, but my brain doesn't stop percolating about it in the background.

Right now I'm at the point of figuring out how to codify the idea of making Active Issue Antagonists.

I think I'd rather make a unique system than piggyback on Fate, but I don't think I'm capable of it.

Alex P

16:53

Hey folks.

Avner Shahar-Kashtan

20:19

BADGER!

That is all.

Oblivious Sage

20:31

Is it a snake?

user61230

23:30

I'm going to work on editing out gm a couple questions a day.

user61230

(Should be no more than a couple retags on the front page at any time)

user61230

23:43

Anyone know if code blocks are accepted for stat blocks?

user61230

I'd like to change: "Size Medium; Speed 40 ft.; AC +1 natural armor; Attack bite (1d6), 2 claws (1d4); Ability Scores Str 13, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10; Special Attacks rake (1d4); Special Qualities low-light vision, scent."; but I'm not sure if it's okay to use monospaced blocks for this.

What kind of game is Fate?

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