TRPG General Chat

BESW

00:19

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doppelgreener

06:32

Does anyone know if there's a word for an occurrence which people are unaware of?

BESW

"occurrence" of what kind?

doppelgreener

Something happening unperceived by the character being narrated. They wander into caves, unaware of the entrance being shut behind them, for instance.

BESW

Dramatic Irony is when the audience knows something the characters don't.

doppelgreener

Oh, well, the context is a friend trying to write a brief description of a character's past in which they unknowingly fell pregnant, and my friend's wondering if there's a word which can describe it as a circumstance or occurrence but which at the same time implies it's going on completely unbeknownst to everyone.

BESW

Ah.

I gotta go, but will think about it.

doppelgreener

06:41

Ok!

Take care :D

BESW

07:50

@JonathanHobbs I don't think there's a noun for that.

You'll need an adjective like "secret," or "unnoticed."

doppelgreener

08:15

@BESW Ok, ta. This is what I suspected.

BESW

09:53

Random synchronicity of the day:

> "He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named did great things — terrible, yes, but great." (Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone)

> "I am Oz, the Great and Terrible," spoke the Beast, in a voice that was one great roar. (The Wonderful Wizard of Oz)

> "You fear your anger, the drive to do great or terrible things." (Batman Begins)

trogdor

10:16

@JonathanHobbs is this like,.. an imaculate conception thing,.. or just an unexpected pregnancy?

anyway, I think BESW is correct, I know of no nouns

adjectives are probably the way to go

Inbar Rose

@BESW Hey, I have a friend who wants to run a Shadowrun game. He wants to run the new edition, some of us know the old edition rules, some don't know them at all. So I asked him, "are the rules important or just the story?" and he said that its the story, the rules aren't important, but we still can't be playing with different rule sets, so I suggested we play with Fate rules in the Shadowrun setting.

BESW

@InbarRose Oh, cool.

Inbar Rose

Do you have suggestions for how to do this? How to incorporate some of the ideas/concepts in Shadowrun into a Fate game?

Like the whole cyber/hacking thing

BESW

I'm not at all familiar with Shadowrun, I'm afraid.

Inbar Rose

implants versus magic insanity etc..

Not important

BESW

10:19

But what you need to do is talk with the group about what they want to be important to the game.

Inbar Rose

The rules are not critical, just the concepts.

Like, in Shadowrun an important concept is that you get more and more insane the more implants you use.

BESW

If cyber/hacking stuff is at the core of the game, then it sounds like there'd be at least one extra--possibly multiple extras--to support it.

Is this kind of insanity recoverable?

Inbar Rose

Depends.

So, essentially yes.

I suggested that could be an aspect

an extra aspect that everyone has "sanity"

and depending on their level it could be like "mostly sane"

BESW

If it's important to the story, make it a stress track.

Inbar Rose

or "not all there"

An insanity stress track?

Interesting.

That wouldn't clash with the mental one?

BESW

10:21

Using implants can cause sanity stress.

Using them too much imposes consequences.

Inbar Rose

That makes sense.

BESW

...Consequences which would probably be difficult to recover from.

Inbar Rose

Yep.

And how would you deal with the concept of cyborgs

people whos arms can be guns

trogdor

it does sorta sound like something that "could" be put under the mental stress track

Inbar Rose

"I have a gun/arm" as an aspect?

or "My chest is a bazooka" ?

BESW

10:22

Two ways to deal with that come to mind.

trogdor

but it would likely be a better idea to have a seperate sanity one

BESW

First is what you're suggesting: aspects.

But if they're something the players want to make more important, turn them into extras.

Inbar Rose

Well, I think the issue is more that in Shadowrun, normally a character has TONS of little gadgets and stuff

so you can't have so many aspects

BESW

Umm. If you've got A Swiss Army Knife Arm (can turn into guns, knives, lockpicks, etc.), that's a fun extra to model.

Inbar Rose

and afaik FATE isn't really a "keep track of lots of items" game.

"I am a walking arsenal" aspect? :)

Why would it be an Extra and not an Aspect?

BESW

10:25

Extra: Swiss Army Arm
Permission: must have an aspect indicating that you are a cyborg.
Cost: One Refresh; skill ranks and stunt slots as desired.

trogdor

yeah, seems right

BESW

Benefit: You gain access to the "Adaptation" skill. Use this skill in place of a Resources check to have the right tool for whatever job is at hand, provided the tool is not much larger than your arm.

Inbar Rose

I think I should read more about Extra's

Is there a repository with modules that are already made for different settings for Fate?

BESW

@InbarRose Check out the Fate System Toolkit.

I was also going to have the Swiss Army Arm provide an 'always-on' tool access of the player's choice, determined when the aspect is taken. For example, you never have to make a check in order to have a gun, or a sword, or a grappling hook, or any other one item you want.

Effectively, the Extra is giving the effect of a declaration (spend a Fate point to say you have the right item, and you have it automatically), but you never have to spend a Fate point at the cost of it always having to be the same one item.

And then it also gives justification for a new skill.

You have to spend ranks in the skill as normal, but it's not a skill most people could use at all. And you can, as always, create stunts to enhance the skill.

I'd say that any Cyborg extra, like the Swiss Army Arm, also forces the character to gain a Sanity stress track.

Oh, and hacking is probably another skill-based extra.

trogdor

10:43

mm

seems reasonable

doppelgreener

11:06

@trogdor Just unexpected!

trogdor

mm

mk

cause I would sorta have to think you might expect it just a little after "business time"

BESW

Technically, the Immaculate Conception is the miracle that Mary was born without Original Sin, which enabled her to be a pure and holy vessel for the Son of God.

The Virgin Birth is the miracle that Mary conceived Christ without a human father.

[four years of Catholic theology]

trogdor

welp, I have only heard them both refered to as the imaculate conception together

soooo

BESW

It is a common misconception.

trogdor

admitadly, it might have something to do with not being a catholic student

which I am honestly happy about

BESW

11:10

Aye.

trogdor

even when I was a kid, I didn't particularly like the Catholic faith

I don't have a problem with people who are catholic, but I would also prefer they not try to shove said religion down my throat

BESW

While many Christian churches consider the miracle of the Virgin Birth to be formal doctrine, the Immaculate Conception is formal doctrine only in the Roman Catholic Church.

It arose from the interesting theological conundrum that a) salvation from Original Sin could only be found through Christ and b) Mary, in order to give birth to the Son of God, had to be pure from sin.

trogdor

that is one of many things that I personally find wrong

you can't just make that exception.

doppelgreener

@trogdor sure you can

BESW

The solution to which is neatly elegant: pre-redemption. Mary received salvation in anticipation of the Savior to Whom she would give birth, thus turning the conundrum into a neat Stable Time Loop, a salvation-based Grandfather Paradox.

2

trogdor

11:17

@JonathanHobbs let me rephrase, you "can" but I reserve my God given right to find exception with it

I don't like the implication that there was this one person who was just exempt from a pretty damning rule.

BESW

It's theological nitpicking, really, but Pelagianism and its resultant debates are fascinating to look at.

Inbar Rose

Um

How do you explain that Jesus had older brothers?

BESW

I don't.

trogdor

I "think" those where his dad's kids

but,.... I have no real idea

just that guess

BESW

I will happily point out that the word translated as "brother" can also mean "kinsman" in a broader sense.

trogdor

11:21

mm Pelagianism has some points that I personally favor,... but not completely.

it goes in the same direction away from catholisism that I do

BESW

Pelagianism is effectively irrelevant to my own theological beliefs, as it deals with an entire subdivision of faith and eschatology --Original Sin and Depravity-- that I don't give any weight to.

But it was definitively crucial to the early Church, and is very interesting to study.

And it's always amused me to watch the mass media try to talk about Catholic doctrine.

Inbar Rose

If we are talking about translation the word for "virgin" and "young girl" are the same, so having a "virgin" mary is potentially a translation issue.

trogdor

yeah

the Bible does have plenty of possible translation issues

wouldn't be surprised if that was one of them

BESW

Ultimately, I find, it's largely irrelephant. It's easy to split hairs over the details of a multi-author anthology collected over hundreds of years and revised, re-codified, and translated uncountable times.

Inbar Rose

not to mention the whole thing was unified into "canon" and "not canon" for political and propagandist reasons.

Mainly to give power over to a select group of people,.

yay for political and religious corruption! :)

trogdor

11:34

yeah, I also am not fond of a few things that are basically contradictory ( in the catholic faith itself I mean, though you might pick apart the bible this way too if you were trying most likely)

BESW

I personally have faith that the process was guided by God to create a particular effect in the general reading, but that focusing too much on the individual words places the emphasise on the two thousand years of fallible human intervention rather than the Divinely inspired gestalt.

...I also believe that it's necessary to look at it as a historical text intended for multiple groups of people spread across thousands of years, helping them deal with some problems we don't have today, and not addressing many of the problems we have which they didn't.

Issues like the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception are the result of trying to reconcile multiple documents that were never intended to be read as equally literal or equally relevant.

On an entirely different note, I wonder what effect Batman would've had if he didn't exist in a universe with people like Superman.

trogdor

I dunno what the difference would be

you mean like,.. he would try harder?

BESW

If he were in a city where "he's just a man" was made doubtful only by Batman's gadgets, rather than the real and undeniable truth that superhumans exist, how effective would he have been?

trogdor

cause there are less, or no, overpowered superheroes to pick up slack?

well

BESW

No, almost the opposite.

trogdor

11:42

I think you forget that people can still be pretty superstitious, even now

BESW

Heroes like Superman --demonstrably superhuman-- help give the Batman legend credibility.

trogdor

I mean heck, quite a few people I personally know on this island are still superstitious, at least in certain ways

though I admit that it is at least partly due to local culture

BESW

Yeah, we're probably all superstitious to some extent (I think many of us use our technology as a form of superstitious ritual).

But when Superman and Wonder Woman and the Martian Manhunter are running around fighting alien gods and immortal criminal masterminds, it's not superstition anymore.

trogdor

yeah

Inbar Rose

When I was a kid, I never knew batman was in the same world as superheroes

trogdor

11:45

but my point is that, with them gone, superstition might make the outcome pretty similar

Inbar Rose

And that never made me doubt his prowess

BESW

@InbarRose Being a reader of Batman is different.

We know where he got his wonderful toys.

Inbar Rose

Batman represents the concept that you don't need superpowers to be a hero and make a difference.

BESW

But in-world, one of his greatest tools is the fear he instills in people because he is unknown.

Inbar Rose

That is a nuance

doppelgreener

11:47

@InbarRose you just need to be absurdly wealthy

BESW

If the evidence of their experience in the world told them that someone who looks like a man in a costume probably is a man in a costume, he wouldn't be as scary.

trogdor

yeah, there is that

Inbar Rose

@JonathanHobbs I knew someone would pull that card

BESW

But the evidence of their world tells them that a man in a costume could be an alien, or a god.

trogdor

it's a good card to pull

doppelgreener

11:47

I prefer The Tick in this regard. No money at all! Not even very good at society in general! Hasn't got a clue! Still good at fighting crime.

Inbar Rose

@BESW Really? I doubt it.

Bank robbers in our world use costumes.

Some of the msot iconic horror characters were costumes.

Heck, even knights wore armor

BESW

I'm not arguing that just the costume and the toys and the training wouldn't be effective.

trogdor

@BESW you forget that he is a badass, even without fear of him, he still manages to do awesome things

BESW

I'm wondering if he's helped by the fact that it's totally reasonable for the people in his world to assume he's actually a superpowered being.

Inbar Rose

Whether superman (or anything supernatural for that matter) exists or not, Batman is still a hero.

BESW

11:49

@InbarRose Did I say otherwise? I get the impression you think I'm denigrating him.

Inbar Rose

No.

I don't think supernatural things are a requirement for his success.

BESW

Aaaaand I'm not saying that either.

Inbar Rose

So then what are you saying?

trogdor

he is saying he thinks it might mean people are less afraid of him

BESW

That it's easier for him to strike fear in the heart of his foes because it's totally reasonable to think he's actually a superpowered being.

When you shoot a gun at a man, you have hope that you might hit him. Even a fully armored, well-trained man can get taken out by a lucky shot.

When you shoot a gun at Superman, you do not have that hope.

Inbar Rose

11:53

I think that if I knew there were supernatural things out there, then I would live my life in a totally different way regardless, but in that regard, I would probably be relieved its a man in a suit and not a god.

trogdor

I have to say though, his main villains usually catch on when they capture him that he is not super powered

Inbar Rose

Yeah

People know he isnt superpowered

BESW

Who knows?

The Joker canonically thinks telling would spoil the fun.

Inbar Rose

and even if they didn't at first, how many times until they figure it out?

trogdor

well I would argue that two face would know

and penguin

BESW

11:54

Several of his major villains know, but unless they somehow convince the world of it, that's not relevant to his reputation.

trogdor

most of this kinda does depend on what you consider cannon

@BESW I mention it because these people are still stopped by him regularly

and they, might I add, seem to be relatively afraid of him anyway

BESW

Indeed. Again, I am not saying this is the reason people are afraid of him, or the reason he's effective.

trogdor

then I am not really seeing your point in the right light I guess

Inbar Rose

I think it is a testament to us that we could so easily move our conversation from cyborgs, to the virgin birth, to religious corruption, to batman.

Awesome.

trogdor

well, I mean

BESW

11:57

I'm saying that being a mysterious hero in a world of superhumans makes it easier to get a reputation for superhuman ability.

Inbar Rose

@BESW With that statement I can almost agree

trogdor

I don't really like ragging on religion as a whole or a specific religion enough to try to keep those conversations up any longer than they were

BESW

"They say he can fly." "I hear he can disappear." These aren't things which, in our world, would easily become common beliefs.

trogdor

ok

Inbar Rose

Yet one flaw of this "world" is that it's not real, in a real world there are many factors that these shows/comics/movies don't take into account.

trogdor

11:58

I think I understand now

this is true as well

Inbar Rose

If there were super people. then Anyone could claim to be, and how would you know?

trogdor

people get superpowers from the strangest things

BESW

One reason I'm thinking about this is because Batman-focused stories so often ignore the rest of the DC world.

Inbar Rose

People would be afraid to do anything because anyone could be superhuman

Would you go around robbing people and stealing things? If anybody could suddenly shoot fire out of his eyes?

Why would crime even still exist in a world like that?

trogdor

lol

Inbar Rose

12:00

Why would alot of things be in a world like that

trogdor

well actually

Inbar Rose

Why isn't superman solving world-hunger?

BESW

Meh. Anybody could be hit by a car, but we drive. We take stupid risks every day.

trogdor

most people probably wouldn't,. but superpowered "villains" still would

BESW

@InbarRose That's been explored several times.

Inbar Rose

12:01

Why does he not just go and melt every weapons factory in the world down?

trogdor

lol

BESW

@InbarRose Again, been explored.

Inbar Rose

There's lots of (endless) options for how the world would be different if supernatural things were reality.

So I think it's impossible to look at anything in that kind of world other than in a subjective way, because we just don't have the paradigm to deal with it.

BESW

@InbarRose It sounds like you're saying "fictional conceits fall apart if you examine them too closely, so there's no point in examining them at all."

Inbar Rose

I suppose.

Best to enjoy them for the amusing stories they are. And not to try to evaluate anything too deeply.

BESW

12:05

If your only response to examining a fictional construct is "don't," then you'll probably be better off not engaging with people who are.

Inbar Rose

Imagine how a Caveman would be in our day and age, he would have not a clue about our daily concerns, "what should I wear today", "where should I eat", "what movie should I go see" Just like we would have no idea in the future how humans would live, we have no idea what the paradigm will be. I admit that we are closer to a world with superheroes than to a caveman society in paradigm (I think) but the comparison still stands.

My point is we can not begin to understand what motivates people in that kind of world to be able to say anythign for certain

So I don't like that your argument hinges on the fact that in that kind of world, that is the reason why people fear him.

BESW

a) I'm not concluding anything "for certain" in this speculation.

b) I'm not even speculating that it's the only reason people fear the Batman.

c) The DC Comics universe is predicated on the assumption that people in that world are, generally and by large, like us.

Inbar Rose

Okay.

BESW

(Regardless of whether taking logical conclusions to their extremes seem to tell us otherwise, the world isn't like that.)

Inbar Rose

Well, in that case - what I have to say to you, is that if you were so clear originally, we would not have had this conversation (though it was somewhat interesting).

BESW

12:09

And d) if all you have to contribute to a conversation is that it's stupid and pointless to have the conversation, consider not joining it.

Inbar Rose

That's not my contribution.

I feel hurt.

I was simply pointing out that it's impossible for us to really know how people would think/fear in that kind of world, and so I didn't think that what you originally said was something worth debating

And that it should be looked at from a different angle

BESW

I'm pretty sure I started this line of thought with "I wonder," not "I decree," and basic assumptions like "people are still basically like us in the DC Comics 'verse" didn't seem like things that need to be made explicit.

Inbar Rose

Instead of the "people in that world fear him because there is a potential that he is superhuman" to something else

BESW

I'm sorry you feel hurt.

I think the point of the speculation is to explore what it might be like to live in that kind of world.

Inbar Rose

Well, I am enlightened by this conversation. And I feel I have learned something. Which is a great conclusion to every conversation.

BESW

12:14

It is obviously impossible to know such things with certainty.

Inbar Rose

Well, it seemed to me that you didn't think that before

I now know better.

Also - I am fond of being a devils advocate.

BESW

Part of being a successful devil's advocate is not nuking the conceit of the conversation from orbit.

Inbar Rose

I enjoy a good debate, and it is important to make all the standing points clear, and the premise crystal clear.

BESW

Another part is recognizing that the devil's advocate is a debate tactic, not usually suitable for casual conversation without giving offense.

Inbar Rose

True.

BESW

12:17

Arguendo

Arguendo is a Latin legal term meaning for the sake of argument. The phrase "assuming, arguendo, that ..." is used in courtroom settings and academic legal settings to designate provisional and unendorsed assumptions that will be made at the beginning of an argument in order to explore their implications. Usage Making an assumption arguendo allows an attorney to pursue arguments in the alternative without admitting even the slightest possibility that those assumptions could be true. Often, these assumptions would be that the facts or legal arguments endorsed by a hostile party were tru...

doppelgreener

12:35

Also part of being devil's advocate is everyone understanding you're being a devil's advocate and agreeing upon that for its utility in exploring an idea

otherwise you're just a jerk arguing with someone for no apparent reason

(potentially!)

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