TRPG General Chat

wax eagle

00:17

@Zachiel aye

best model I have is if you're using a ranged weapon for close blast power. You use a piece of ammo for each target

though it's the same for an area burst power, which is actually different...

> Unless noted otherwise, there must be line of effect between the origin square of an effect and its intended target for that target to be affected.

origin square is defined as the PC's square except for area burst where there are two LOE reqs, form the PC's square to the center, and the center to the target.

Zachiel

00:32

@Metool ping testing again

Metool

Whoops, test failed because I forgot to set a condition. One last time.

Zachiel

@Metool

Metool

Welp, that failed hard.

Thank you, @Zachiel.

BESW

@Zachiel You need arcane research IRL to know how to do any gridwork in D&D.

Zachiel

@BESW XD

BESW

00:43

3

Q: Declaring an interrupt during a multitarget attack

Suppose I have an immediate interrupt power that triggers when I am hit, and the effect is to push the creature out of range, invalidating the attack. Example: A monster attacks with a close burst power that affects me and multiple allies. If the attack hits enough allies, I want to use a inter...

Zachiel

So choosing targets is step 2 and it's made only once

Which does not solve anything

wax eagle

01:10

@Zachiel LOE is determined individually for each target...not much else makes sense....

(is there an alternate theory?)

BESW

@waxeagle That you choose one corner to draw from per power rather than per target or per attack.

But given that 4e topology turns squares into circles with a whole-number pi value, I'm all for waving my hands to avoid the hounds of Tindalos.

wax eagle

@BESW and somehow terrain doesn't fit neatly into our squircles

2

odd protrusions into other square are allowed and seemingly encouraged to affect LOE/LOS

BESW

I never allowed that; if something occupied less than 1/2 of a square, it wasn't mechanically in that square.

Nadir

02:24

also the answer is confusing because @waxeagle says bursts dont follow the individual targeting rule, but then in his example of a burst he follows the individual targeting rule :)

wax eagle

02:38

@Nadir not quite. they follow the rule, but from the center of the burst, not the caster

hang on, LOE doesn't follow the corner rule at all

that's where we're getting hung up

the corner rules are solely for determing cover

LOE is any point in your square to any point in theirs.

BESW

...I am rusty on my 4e.

4e usually makes sense if you've got all the pieces, but miss just one and it goes all squircle-shaped.

4

wax eagle

yeah I haven't played in too long and the geometry and LOE/LOS/Cover/concealment all get fuzzy the longer it's been

and they don't come up a ton in game either

generally it's easiest to just say "he has cover, -2" and move on

then worry about fiddly bits.

ok, off to bed with me. see y'all tomorrow

BESW

02:53

Yeah, it'd be easy to make it more prevalent, but the mechanic hassle isn't worth the effect.

Poor 4e. Fixed grapple, couldn't fix LoS.

Alex P

03:25

rawr

Metool

@AlexP Rrr~

BESW

@AlexP Aw, how cute.

Alex P

I'm reading Rob Donaghue's "D&D Off-Ramp" post.

Well, that mostly just makes me want to read the next post. Which he has not written yet. :o

> So why those three [13th Age, Numenera, Dungeon World] and not something else (like Fate, if I’m feeling self serving)? Well, that’s what we’ll get into tomorrow.

Although I feel like I can guess the answer.

Alex P

03:48

So, okay, I think the thing that makes something a viable "off-ramp" game is what I'm gonna call... adventure gaming.

It's a mix of several factors.

But, essentially, why is DW and not AW part of the off-ramp? Because DW is a different way to tell D&D stories. Whereas AW is, like, crazy interpersonal drama, often with a psychosexual edge to it.

Why is Numenera part of the off-ramp? Because you can change the setting and turn your nose up at fighting monsters a bit, even, but it's still a game where a fairly traditional party can go on adventures.

So, maybe with the right presentation, Fate can fit?

Metool

Need a name for a family of artificers.

BESW

So you're thinking of it as the "murderhobo quotient"?

Alex P

Hmm, not quite.

BESW

@Metool Race, cultural background?

@Metool Babbage.

Metool

@BESW Human, from a setting roughly similar to Sigil Prep. That's pretty much all that's clearly defined ATM.

Alex P

03:54

Like a big established patrician family, or a mom-and-pop business kind of thing?

BESW

Tunerson

Metool

@AlexP Well, that's up in the air. We've only got Roland Lastname and his grandfather as story-relevant characters so far.

BESW

Beneforte

Metool

Gonna run these past the people involved. Thanks.

Alex P

If we're talking references.

Isambard Kingdom Brunel

Isambard Kingdom Brunel, FRS (; 9 April 1806 – 15 September 1859), was an English mechanical and civil engineer who built dockyards, the Great Western Railway, a series of steamships including the first propeller-driven transatlantic steamship and numerous important bridges and tunnels. His designs revolutionised public transport and modern engineering. Though Brunel's projects were not always successful, they often contained innovative solutions to long-standing engineering problems. During his short career, Brunel achieved many engineering "firsts", including assisting in the buildin...

BESW

04:07

Brunel would be excellent, too.

I vote Brunel or Babbage.

Alex P

Lovelace.

:P

BESW

She was more mathy.

Not blueprints or under-the-engine gal, whatever 2dGoggles tells you.

Alex P

References don't have to be dead-on.

But, yes.

@BESW I think the "murderhobo" aspect is that the adventures don't really have a super-tight [ed: was "fight," oops!] coupling with the characters' backgrounds and personalities.

BESW

Also, when choosing a NPC name, it's important to avoid the giggle factor.

Alex P

Which isn't to say there's no character development or relationships.

BESW

04:12

@AlexP Best typo of the day.

Alex P

So, like, 13th Age has the Icons. Clearly you're supposed to care about a PC's relationships and place in the world. But it's not really used to drive personal drama as much as an external thing that you're moving through in interesting ways, so to speak.

Which is kinda what levels are all about.

BESW

Fate could be framed in a very D&D-supportive way, largely just by choosing aspects and skills appropriately.

Alex P

@BESW Yup!

BESW

If your aspects are about your capabilities, equipment, and inter-party relations more than about your personality or your relationship to the outside world that'll go a long way.

Skills would focus more on various kinds of combat, rolling social conflict into fewer skills and physical conflict into more.

Extras would replace loot in some way (see Hobbs for ideas there).

Alex P

So, I think really the thing with levels is that as you play, you change your ability to impact the world outside you. But the world itself doesn't inherently change you much. It's very much up to the player to allow that to happen at all.

It's "safe" in the sense that your adventures aren't likely to override the kind of personality you want to roleplay, as long as that personality fits into a certain set of parameters.

BESW

04:18

Hmm.

So setting creation could even be a per-dungeon affair.

Alex P

Which isn't to say that it's an inherently shallow structure. But, rather, you get to choose how deep it is. And have fairly ample room to push back against players trying to drag you "deeper" than you really want to go (unless it's the GM changing your alignment).

BESW

Location: Lord Hater's Emporium of Evil
Current issue: Alternately Dark and On Fire
Impending Issue: Lord Hater is Gathering His Troll Army

Alex P

I think using a mechanic to represent the conditions of the scenario might be pretty cool.

E.g. "The time is running out!" vs. "This dungeon is all about attrition of supplies."

BESW

Indeed.

Fate can do that narratively rather than realistically, with a "Get there in time" stress track.

Then the GM presses for "success at cost" choices that involve ticking down the stress track, and consequences become a group-available resource.

Alex P

So, okay, if I had to define adventure gaming:

We're a group, with some sense of niche protection, probably.

(One Unique Thing is like the epitome of niche protection at the character-description level. Kinda interesting.)

Conflicts are external. Internal conflict is just color, for show.

Characters increase in their ability to affect the world, probably dramatically, as they advance.

And that thing I said about how it's okay for your personality to be static. It won't sabotage the game or detract from the point of it much.

So, between skills and aspects, I think Fate can pull off 1 and 2.

BESW

04:28

Individuation, external conflict, widening in-game agency, and de-emphasized internal development.

Alex P

3... my understanding from reading Core (and SotC in the past) is that your abilities don't really ratchet up much.

BESW

@AlexP Extras.

Speed up the milestone gain and increase the number of extras available as you advance.

Alex P

There you go.

So a customized Fate with the dials set right could be a convincing Off-Ramp.

BESW

Hobbs and I have done a lot of talk and a few site questions about how to take what his group likes in 4e and keep it as they transition to Fate.

Yeah, but I think you'd need to know a lot about Fate before you could do it convincingly, so Fate Core on its own isn't good.

@Problematic and I have been working on D&D-like extras, and it's hard to do.

Problematic

Mmm.

user61230

04:49

こんいちは！

BESW

Élen sila luménn omentielvo.

user61230

Aiya otornoi!

BESW

...Hafa adai, 'Alláh-u-Abhá, dai stihó.

user61230

I plan to learn Arabic. Not quite there yet.

user61230

And I've forgotten most of my D'ni, so I can't quite respond reasonably

BESW

04:53

Dai stihó is actually The Speech from the Young Wizards series.

user61230

Oh!

user61230

Huh.

Alex P

05:06

BW-proficient folk: I've got a character sheet for my PC after a lot of play. Last post here. Compare and contrast with her starting stats (in the first post). ;)

Magician

06:08

I have to say, it's nice seeing a discussion brought on by an item in the rss feed. Means it's working.

BESW

10:22

Yes, indeed.

BESW

11:04

...my paladin answer is still racking up votes.

I don't even think it's one of my better answers.

[marvels]

wax eagle

11:43

it's a question that a lot of people wonder though.

and I'm guessing something a lot of 3.5 and earlier players struggle with. How do I play this legitimately cool class without dramatically changing party dynamics

Trajan

my paladin end up being killed by his own party while he was trying to murder an "innocent" jailed Tiefling (a choice I made to change his alignement to suit better to the group)

BESW

I guess I was lucky enough to find Making the Tough Decisions before I ran into too much trouble in my group.

Aaron

12:10

Good morning.

Joshua Aslan Smith

@zachiel let us know if that issue with trogdor is resolved

hello everyone

Trajan

hi @Aaron @JoshuaAslanSmith

BESW

Hey.

@JoshuaAslanSmith ?

Joshua Aslan Smith

@besw what up

BESW

Feeling like I missed something, not sure if I need to be clued in.

Joshua Aslan Smith

12:22

trogdor had a 4e question at some point last night (for me est) and zachiel pinged me about it

so i was seeing if they ever found an answer

BESW

Ah.

Aaron

12:42

I miss playing kerbal space program.

Joshua Aslan Smith

lol

Aaron

I loved that game. I almost landed on the Mun but my final stage lost a rocket on takeoff and I didn't notice until it was too late :(

Has anyone else played it?

Joshua Aslan Smith

no but I know of it

BESW

Ditto.

Aaron

It was so fun.

I took the russian approach. Put as many rockets on as possible.

wax eagle

12:52

@JoshuaAslanSmith I think we got it figured (it was re: LOE rules IIRC)

Joshua Aslan Smith

kool

Shkeil

Hi everyone

Joshua Aslan Smith

hello

Aaron

Hello

Joshua Aslan Smith

nobody happens to know much about using snmp v3 on printers do they?

BESW

13:01

I understood most of those words.

wax eagle

@JoshuaAslanSmith not even a bit.

Joshua Aslan Smith

hahaha

wax eagle

my printer communication experience was getting ghostscript to print pdfs as jpegs.

Joshua Aslan Smith

didnt think so working on a project for work and sometimes the technical geekiness and hobby geekiness interact

hah

wax eagle

(which isn't technically printer com, but ghostscript does technically talk to printers)

Alex P

13:02

@waxeagle I think that goes back to our "adventure gaming" thing, in a way. The paladin threatens to break the "external, not in-party conflict" and "de-emphasized internal development" requirements.

BESW

I'm having trouble getting my ten-year-old laserjet to talk to an Asus eeePC.

wax eagle

@AlexP yeah

BESW

@AlexP Maybe one reason I've never been content with D&D is that I've never had a group that followed those rules, or wanted to.

wax eagle

@BESW ick.

Trajan

@Shkeil hi

BESW

13:04

Tweets to Campaign By presents a different kind of zombie.

An African proverb says the idle are a peculiar kind of dead who cannot be buried. AL1880

Tweeted by TweetsofOld on September 17, 2013 at 1:00 PM

Shkeil

Hi @Trajan

BESW

@Shkeil Oh, hey.

Walking Mind needs a proof-reader.

Badly.

Magician

@BESW Well, he's not fortunate enough to have you guys :)

wax eagle

@Magician maybe we should offer?

Magician

He also writes frequently, which probably means he doesn't re-read each post that much before publishing it.

BESW

13:13

I'm halfway through quickly skimming his most recent post, and I've picked up four very simple errors already: "t" instead of "to," a failed first-letter-in-sentence capital, a plural instead of a singular noun, and an it/is substitution. I've seen similar mistakes in all of his past posts.

wax eagle

@Magician so many errors are caught that way too :(

BESW

These are all careful-reading errors that an automated checker is unlikely to pick up, and someone who is already familiar with the content is likely to pass over because he knows what is meant, but a new set of eyes will pick up quickly and easily.

wax eagle

@BESW yeah. or even the put it down for an hour or day rule would help that kind of thing.

Aaron

Who are you guys talking about?

Magician

@waxeagle Or struggle to write more than paragraph a day, re-reading everything written so far each time, that works for me :P

wax eagle

13:15

@Magician heh :)

BESW

@Aaron Rob Donoghue's Walking Mind blog.

He's the most recent entry in the chat ticker.

Aaron

Ah.

BESW

@Magician Yeah, but that often leads to copy-paste errors where tenses get changed mid-sentence or some connecting tissue is left on the floor.

wax eagle

yep

Trajan

I'm trying to translate Roll For Shoes in french, is there anyone I should inform of this ? I guess there is no copyright for its "system" but still.

BESW

13:23

Leave a comment on the blog page.

Trajan

I only know of this forum

BESW

That's what I meant, yes.

Trajan

ok

BESW

It's a Hobbs!

Zachiel

@JoshuaAslanSmith We did, somehow. But it wasn't for Trogdor either, it was for... Discipol, I think?

Alex P

13:35

Oooh, let's see if I was right about "Why these three?"

wax eagle

@AlexP I'm about to quote fox in sox....something about freezy trees and three free fleas

Zachiel

And now I'm torn between talking about things I like here or going outside to handedly deliver curriculums to make mom and dad happy.

Because "if you send them by mail they don't read them"

wax eagle

@Zachiel lol, make your parents happy :). we'll be here when you get back

Shkeil

@Zachiel We won't move.

Alex P

I must admit I have an irrational negative association with Dragon Age because of how the Escapist wrote about it when it first came out. (It comes up in Rob's latest article.)

BESW

13:41

I might. There's ice cream in the freezer and molasses in the 'fridge.

wax eagle

@BESW that sounds interesting. speaking of molassas did you hear about the spill in hawaii?

Alex P

It was part of their "Let's talk about D&D4 like it's the biggest failure in game design ever, and equate every single thing not like it with some kind of old-school revival" kick.

BESW

@waxeagle I did not.

wax eagle

huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/16/…

(this somehow made national news this morning...which is why I mention it)

but then a quarter of a million gallons of sticky syrup spilled in a harbor is kind of a big deal...

BESW

@AlexP That sounds not so much like leaping to conclusions as building elaborate cantilevered structures so as to reach conclusions more efficiently for prolonged periods.

Alex P

13:44

@BESW There's a quote I have to find for you. It's only the best use of hostile paraphrase EVER.

BESW

@AlexP I was quoting from AJ Hall's Dissipation & Despair.

Zachiel

@AlexP I'm hanging at the edge of my seat now

BESW

> State officials have said they don't believe Matson was required to have any such plans, despite having plans for spills of oil or other hazardous chemicals.

wax eagle

@BESW heh...I'm sure now they'll need to...even though this is...freak accident level stuff...

BESW

Which sounds ridiculous on the face of it, as molasses is not usually considered hazardous, but molasses has killed or injured more than 170 people in the last hundred years.

wax eagle

13:48

> and a wave of molasses rushed through the streets at an estimated 35 mph

that's some quick moving molasses

BESW

Granted, it was all at once 94 years ago and only 21 of the 171 people actually died.

But now they have to reset the "IT HAS BEEN _ _ DAYS SINCE A MOLASSES-RELATED FATALITY" sign.

wax eagle

still 171 people KILLED OR INJURED! in the last 100 years

BESW

@waxeagle That averages out to nearly two people every year!

wax eagle

EVERY YEAR

we must stop this plague!

BESW

And there aren't any special safety protocols for shipping this dangerous stuff? For shame.

Alex P

13:51

FOUND IT!

wax eagle

we should also make it clear that CHILDREN were harmed

Alex P

> Mearls admits 4th edition might have gone too far in creating a perfectly balanced game. "We've lost faith of what makes an RPG an RPG," he said, admitting that in trying to please gamers with a limited imagination, 4th edition might have punished those with an active one. "There's this fear of the bad gaming group, where the game is so good that even playing with a bad gaming group, you'll still have fun."

BESW

Also an unknown but reportedly-large number of horses and dogs.

Maybe PETA will mobilize against the molasses menace.

Alex P

From here.

BESW

@AlexP ...wat.

Alex P

13:53

It's like, I'm sorry, a lead designer of D&D admitted that their current flagship product is for "gamers with a limited imagination," and that is NOT PART OF A QUOTE?

wax eagle

@BESW one of their target groups (fish) were severely harmed in the latest incident

BESW

I think it's time to start writing nasty treacle-covered letters.

Aaron

@BESW PETA is no more from what I know.

Magician

@BESW To Mearls?

BESW

@Magician That too.

Magician

13:54

Just to utterly confuse everyone.

wax eagle

@BESW maybe we could get the maple syrup and corn folks to fund this campaign

@Aaron still very much alive and well.

Alex P

@BESW At the time it came off as editorializing not founded on a quote.

BESW

@AlexP I'm unclear where they're getting the quotes from.

Alex P

They're not.

Like, he just added that part.

Because it's the thesis of the article.

Aaron

@waxeagle They are losing a lot of funding and might be sued because they lied to the government.

BESW

13:56

@AlexP No, the actual quotes-in-quotes quotes. Is this a private interview, a public forum, a blog post?

Alex P

RPGnet joked about it at the time, kinda like: "You know, I think they're both pretty good games that offer different things to their audiences," said Alex, admitting that OGL rules and 4E DROOLS.

@BESW Private interview.

I used to like The Escapist, a long time ago. Before they "sold out."

Basically it used to be academic-lite writing about various cultural or psychological aspects of video games.

BESW

@AlexP I / met a boy / wearing Vans...

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