TRPG General Chat

doppelgreener

01:12

26

Q: What is the purpose of old-school D&D class level limitations?

When I played 1E and 2E, race class limits was one of the first rules we decided to ignore. We decided that it would prevent us from playing (say) an Elven fighter for as long as the party might last, and that we couldn't figure out a reason for the rule to exist. Now I'm thinking about teachin...

From the first sentence: "Race class limits" sounds to me like it's talking about the "this race can only be these classes" limitation, but it's really talking about the level limitation.

What could that be edited to? "race/class level limits"?

Alex P

"Racial level limits"?

doppelgreener

01:25

Were they different between the classes a race could play? (if they had any option)

Alex P

There were limitations, yeah.

To be specific: different races had different classes that were accessible to them.

And, on top of that, there were different level limits.

See Aramis' answer there, at the end.

doppelgreener

Well I mean: I know generally race X was class Y and that was that, but were there any races able to be class Z or W, and in class Z they had one level limitation and class W another?

Alex P

He lists things like how high a dwarf can get in fighter.

@JonathanHobbs So, super-old D&D had race-as-class, but that was really short-lived.

doppelgreener

@AlexP Aha right. I didn't really know how to make sense of any of that, but it being classes and etc means it can begin to make sense...

Alex P

Afterward it was more like "Humans can be anything, but no multiclassing. Elves can be any class, plus they have a lot of crazy multiclassing options that involve mages: fighter/mage, thief/mage, cleric/mage, fighter/cleric/mage, fighter/thief/mage, ..."

Whereas dwarves also could be multiclass but you couldn't make a fighter/mage dwarf in most editions, IIRC.

Humans could dual-class, though, in 2nd Edition. Also when they introduced kits, multiclassing became less desirable.

doppelgreener

01:46

Huh, ok. Well, I've edited the question.

Alex P

01:58

I'm arguing about D&D class balance, sigh. :/

Specifically against people saying wizards should be better because of fictional reasons.

Since they have the power to control the universe or whatever.

BESW

That's apparently what the developers have thought for some time as well.

Alex P

That's always struck me as weird because, like, even if they do have crazy-powerful spells. It's a REALLY big reach to say there's any reason you should be able to call an angel to fight for you in under six seconds.

Or, in D&Ds with minute-long rounds, does it really defy credibility to say that a supreme badass beyond-legendary warrior can kill more than five guys?

trogdor

lol

Alex P

@BESW Yeah. Partly because wizards are depicted as the "smart" characters, so it's almost a point of geek pride that they are the best. Partly because they get all the choices and options, so of course the most gearhead-y I-love-mechanics gamers are going to think they deserve to be coolest.

trogdor

not if one of those 5 guys is The Burninator

BESW

02:01

And partly because the source material D&D is based on had similar patterns.

Alex P

@BESW Except how often does Conan fight a guy with Chain Contingency, really?

It's more like "Transform myself into a demon ape."

trogdor

lol

Alex P

Or "Summon a demon that is then tied to my life force so I croak when Conan strangles it to death" or something.

trogdor

yeah

that was pretty dumb

BESW

@AlexP I think it's an issue of which ideas Gygax found more cool to play. It seems that while he may have liked watching Conan, he liked playing Vance.

trogdor

02:04

also, "put a mechanical monster thing in the lake so he can wrestle it to death

Alex P

@BESW Pre-3e is actually way better about this because of saves and MR, though.

Fighters totally went from having great saves to absolute garbage.

RPGnet also pointed out something interesting that I hadn't really noticed before today: in 3.5/PF, the value of any half-decent spellcasting-related feat is about equal to the value of a whole feat chain. Because it interacts with so many parts of your character sheet to give you so many different bonuses.

trogdor

yeah

Alex P

Like, even independent of power-level issues, Natural Spell by itself easily opens up as many options as taking the whole chain of tripping or spring-attack or cleave feats.

And it automatically gets more and more awesome without further investment.

Just like magic-item feats.

Also, speaking of broken spell-related feats. Spell Perfection. You don't even have to, like, try to cheese out metamagic at that point. :/

KRyan

02:21

@AlexP yeah, if anything, Paizo bought into the caster supremacy thing even harder than Wizards did. Particularly if you include late-3.5 supplements (Tome of Battle and Complete Champion finally did a lot to give warriors options that were at least something like comparable, even if they ultimately definitely did not close the gap at all)

@AlexP also, remember that Wizards took an extremely Ivory Tower approach to 3e and 3.5, particularly in the beginning. Coming from MtG, they really thought of the game in terms of their MtG player types (Timmy, Spike, and so on), and so thought the game had to include "traps" and "rewards" for system mastery, to appeal to that type of player. Hence, you get stuff like Greater Weapon Specialization vs. Natural Spell.

and again, Paizo has taken up that banner with gusto, it would seem

which is odd since it also seems like none of their developers have anything like the system mastery necessary to understand the game on that level

Alex P

@KRyan Okay, this is a bit misleading. Monty Cook wrote an article saying he used that framework. But he didn't understand it at all.

KRyan

Jason Buhlmann and Sean K. Reynolds certainly don't, anyway

Alex P

What Cook says they applied as Timmy / Johnny / Spike wasn't.

KRyan

@AlexP that's entirely possible; I'm pretty divided on whether I believe that article or think it was just a weak attempt to save face

@AlexP oh, it does kind of go without saying that even if they intended stuff to reward system mastery, they didn't have nearly the mastery of many of their players

Alex P

Magic does have bad cards to make you feel smart for not picking them (and to make drafting make sense), but MTG devs don't believe Timmy is a guy who deserves crap because his tastes are too simple.

KRyan

02:26

they mis-identified a lot of the best and worst options

@AlexP yeah, the D&D group didn't either, I don't think

they just didn't realize even remotely how wide a gap they'd created

I mean, Exalted explicitly tells players that Solars are most powerful (at least in combat), and mortals can't hang with exalts at all, particularly Solars.

but yet, a mortal in Exalted can pair up with a Solar better than a Monk can with a Wizard, at least at the very-high-end of optimization

(that might be a slight overstatement; if we replaced the mortal with a Dragon-blooded, though)

also, another thing to remember is that Wizards' playtesting is a joke

one of their developers talked about their playtest campaign

he played an Int 11 Wizard who took Martial Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus, and Power Attack

Alex P

@KRyan Is that really the case as soon as you get into Paranoia Combo territory, though?

KRyan

that was his test of the Wizard class

@AlexP Paranoia Combo?

doppelgreener

@KRyan Do they playtest using people outside the company?

KRyan

@JonathanHobbs doubt it ever happened

Paizo had their publicity stunt, but that's all that was

doppelgreener

That's... everything playtesting requires. You need someone who does not have their head that deep into the system.

KRyan

02:30

I think Dreamscarred Press does some, but then DSP is a quality developer who knows what it's doing.

doppelgreener

Developers' playtests can't reveal much about other players. They're in too deep.

Alex P

@KRyan So, I don't know Exalted firsthand, but I remember this... Exalted roughly degenerates like this: People get Perfect Defenses. They get attacks that are the equivalent of D&D disintegrate. Once you have those two elements, the only thing that you don't splatter right away is an enemy with Perfect Defenses.

KRyan

@JonathanHobbs you need that playtesting, you also need destructive testing which is done best by system masters (though yes, ideally those are still separate from developers)

Alex P

So every fight is either an insta-gib cakewalk or turns into mote attrition.

KRyan

@AlexP frankly, the comparison is bad just because White Wolf is pretty awful at mechanics, and almost everyone pretty much agrees on that point

awesome, evocative setting and campaign material

awkward, complicated, and broken game mechanics

but it was the only game off the top of my head that supports explicitly imbalanced player options

Alex P

02:32

White Wolf has some setting turds, too, though. They come up with cool things but sometimes you look at something and it's so disgusting or racist that you just go "Why is this book not on fire?"

KRyan

@AlexP haven't seen any of that

but then I'm not a big WW fan

they do certainly deal with some pretty dark material on a regular basis

it wouldn't surprise me to hear that a lot of it seemed racist or sexist or what have you, and it wouldn't surprise me if some of it was.

but they're definitely not FATAL

or what was the other one I heard of the other day

where it was literally a system made by some white supremacists to roleplay out their crusade against minorities

those are definitely worse than anything White Wolf has done

Alex P

@KRyan RaHoWa.

Well, sure, but those are books by crazy people and idiots.

KRyan

@AlexP yeah that was it

@AlexP truth

Alex P

I know all the bad games!

KRyan

heh

I really only know D&D 3.x, a tiny bit of 4e, slightly more of FATE, and then of course Legend

Alex P

02:36

Any time someone says "Maybe we should play FATAL, for fun," just make them play Synnibar instead. It's about as crazy goofy but you don't have to be constantly disgusted.

KRyan

@AlexP I only know of Synnibar from it being referenced in that FATAL review

Alex P

Or that one really stupid mutant game. I'm trying to remember the name... it was kind of a pretentious name...

Where you just roll up the stupidest stuff like having arms that are ant heads or something.

KRyan

hah

I actually have been wanting to play a Swarm-based character in 3.x or Legend

Worm-that-walks or something similar

in Legend it would be pure fluff though

BESW

@KRyan The Worm that Walks was pretty cool.

KRyan

...hmm

@BESW yup

Alex P

02:38

You could probably find some ability to represent it, couldn't you?

KRyan

@AlexP oh absolutely

but it would be purely my own refluffing

Alex P

Refluffing some teleport-y type of thing, maybe

BESW

I had a yuan-ti abomination worm that walks as a villain in a sadly truncated campaign.

KRyan

@BESW that sounds interesting

BESW

@KRyan "not FATAL" is not a ringing endorsement.

KRyan

02:39

my Eberron campaign is in the middle of a Xen'drik Yuan-ti temple, trying to swindle their snake-god-wannabe

Alex P

Also, FATAL does have those really charming pictures of the game designers hitting each other with toy swords.

They tried to make them all scrambled-up with ugly filters so that their black t-shirts would look more like medieval clothes or armor. It did not work. They are obviously wearing black t-shirts.

KRyan

@BESW no, but I just wanted to remind that though White Wolf deals with some dark stuff, and may on occasion go too far just because they're spending too much time with the material and getting desensitized (or because they were drawn to the game because of pre-existing issues), it's still nothing like FATAL

@AlexP yeah, the "artwork" in FATAL is one of the best parts of it, though largely in the "so bad it's... not nearly as awful as the rest of this"

Alex P

Well, OWoD being racist against gypsies wasn't being dark, it was being dumb.

BESW

@KRyan He was the protege of a dragon who was teaching him necromancy. In the middle of the ritual to become a lich he got taken out by his brother the king (necromancy was blasphemy in their culture).

The dragon's response was to destroy the entire yuan-ti civilization.

Alex P

I see your point about being desensitized, but Exalted has that one thing that really should have made them all step back and say, "We fucked up. What are we doing to be printing this, man?" And they never did.

BESW

02:42

Decades later, the worms in the ground where the half-lich-ified corpse of the necromancer had fallen rose up as a Worm that Walks.

KRyan

@BESW huh, my player char in the aforementioned Eberron game is a would-be paladin of the Silver Flame, who had been abducted by a necromancer and was half-way through some horrible undead-ification ritual when the Silver Flame interrupted it, so she's kinda-undead

@AlexP not familiar with it; certainly fit in with how Europe... often still treats gypsies, sadly

@AlexP not sure what that was, either

@BESW nice

BESW

Humans have settled the island, and he's established a series of cults and secret groups so that he can use his knowledge of alchemy to covertly start turning humans into yuan-ti in order to rebuild his nation.

(Because "alchemy can turn humans into yuan-ti" is totally a thing that exists. Go figure.)

@ShashankSawant Hi!

Shashank Sawant

@BESW Hi!

KRyan

@ShashankSawant 'lo

is your name a reference in any way to The Shawshank Redemption?

Shashank Sawant

lol...

Nopes...

KRyan

02:44

darn

Shashank Sawant

That's my real name...

KRyan

ah, cool!

Alex P

@ShashankSawant Hello!

Shashank Sawant

Though I do use the movie as a memory aid for new acquaintances...

KRyan

@ShashankSawant hah, awesome

I love that movie

Shashank Sawant

02:45

Surprisingly, there many who haven't seen the movie (even in the US).

I am originally from India.

KRyan

yeah, it's a shame

Shashank Sawant

Anyways... gtg... have a good one guys!

KRyan

enjoy!

I gotta get going too

BESW

ttfn

KRyan

later all

Alex P

02:48

So, we played Burning Wheel today and I totes won a fight! It was against a derpy monk, though. :/

Still, he got schooled.

(Monk like a guy who lives in a monastery and makes bear and copies books all day. Not, you know, the awesome kung-fu guys.)

And by "schooled" I mean "superficially injured."

BESW

09:41

@balpha [wave]

balpha

hey hey

BESW

What's up?

balpha

we use the RPG chat theme in one of our internal rooms, and the CSS is totally borked there, so I came to check if it's the same in the "real" RPG rooms.

but it looks fine here

BESW

Ah.

I gotta say, the UI here is the best of the (admittedly relatively few) SE chat rooms I've popped into.

(And for the main rpg.se site, as well.)

BESW

11:12

Is there something a mod can do to help this guy log in to chat?

@C.Ross, @waxeagle [poke]

C. Ross

11:40

@BESW not without more information. If you get him to make a support post on Role-playing Games Meta we can try.

BESW

11:50

@C.Ross, @waxeagle Thanks for the help.

Alex P

13:32

Welp, answered my own question.

0

A: Does injury affect the helping dice I grant to others?

Yes. Penalty dice from wounds do reduce your help (and FORKs). Helping dice are based on the exponent of your ability. BWG p. 36 (my emphasis throughout): Helping Dice If the exponent of the helping ability is 4 or lower, one die is given to the acting player as help. If the exponent of...

Hoping I can take Wax's bounty >.>

BESW

Heheh.

user61230

14:05

I AM RETURNED.

BESW

[fbweeee]

user61230

How is everyone?

Alex P

@Emrakul Hi!

user61230

@AlexP !iH

LitheOhm

14:28

@KRyan If only such d6 per level spells could be spontaneously cast, then.

Zachiel

@LitheOhm Reserve feats.

Or Spontaneous Domain feat.

Has anybody ever read the D& 4e "class compendium" articles on Dragon Magazine?

KRyan

@LitheOhm well you should prepare a variety of spells. yes, if you're out of the useful spells, clerics can switch to cure/inflict as needed, which is useful, but it doesn't make those spells good

@Zachiel those typically don't do d6/level damage, pretty sure

@Zachiel this is a pretty solid answer if you can find a domain with d6/level damage in a variety of energy types

Energy Substitution can be used to prepare spells in another energy type, too, I suppose

ultimately, I probably would avoid most elemental energy types anyway

you can get d6/level in Sonic or Force and those are resisted even less than Negative

Metool

Ooh. I can create chat rooms now.

Zachiel

@KRyan in a variety? That's hard to find.

KRyan

@Zachiel right, that was sort of the point

Zachiel

14:42

@Metool brace yourselves

Metool

Gah. I'll have to disable desktop notification if it's gonna do that.

KRyan

?

Metool

It's stopped using the default Growl bubble that goes away after a second or two and now has a persistent thing I have to click on the x to close

KRyan

@Metool what are you being desktop notified about?

Metool

@Zachiel this

@KRyan this too

KRyan

14:45

@Metool oh

what's Growl?

Metool

Mac's major notification pusher

KRyan

@Metool ah

BESW

Aye, they stopped using Growl for me, too, but the bubbles still go away by themselves unless I'm doing something amusing in fullscreen.

What OS are you on?

Metool

Er, one that has Growl?

Latest version of OS X.

BESW

You're a version or two ahead of me, then.

Zachiel

14:49

12 mins ago, by Zachiel

Has anybody ever read the D& 4e "class compendium" articles on Dragon Magazine?

@besw?

BESW

I'm unfamiliar with that term. Is it different from the "Class Acts" series?

Zachiel

I've learned about the class compendium (a canceled publication) here on SE

I've also been told the contents that were to go into that compendium were going to be published on Dragon Magazine

with a different name I suppose

BESW

[shrug] I'm unsure, and no longer have an active subscription.

Zachiel

I hope to find some "errata'ed class" with possibly a collection of powers from all sources that's consultable offline.

I don't have DDI now to check

And we'll play in a basement where wi-fi signal is really bad

LitheOhm

@KRyan yeah, I definitely concur on sonic and force damage

re: spontaneous - not good just useful.

worked just fine for my 10th level in a dungeon crawl

Higher levels? Might have fizzled out and would have had to switch strategies

but don't duskblades get very few spells anyway?

KRyan

15:01

@LitheOhm duskblades are pretty limited, though the 13th-level full-attack Arcane Channeling is pretty awesome

@LitheOhm anecdotes don't provide reliable or valid information though

LitheOhm

It is cool but it's 13 levels of little else going on

KRyan

@LitheOhm I agree; my argument was never that Cleric/Duskblade is a bad idea

LitheOhm

aye, just picking on the cure/inflict

KRyan

my argument was that it's a good idea but not because of cure/inflict, which are at best used only when desperate

right

LitheOhm

there is more on that list. I wasn't exclusive

KRyan

15:03

@LitheOhm which is part of the problem: you didn't mention actually good spells, and then recommended distinctly bad spells

LitheOhm

bestow curse is bad?

pardon?

KRyan

@LitheOhm I did not say every spell you recommended was bad

just that you did recommend spells (cure/inflict) that are bad

LitheOhm

on contagion, it strikes immediately d20srd.org/srd/spells/contagion.htm

KRyan

@LitheOhm I also didn't claim contagion was bad; I don't know enough about which diseases do what to say how good it is

another good choice would be poison, though getting it a spell level after druids does hurt

and heal and harm are fantastic spells for what they do

LitheOhm

I just listed the spells I used. That char was doing a lot of leap attack power attack so there wasn't a whole lot of pickiness going on after the first round or so of combat

and it was only vs. a taint elemental where he forsook his cleric spells in favor of the fire bolt

KRyan

15:10

@LitheOhm Negative Energy isn't energy damage? really? care to back that one up?

LitheOhm

Not listed under those. Play semantics if you like, but negative energy isn't listed under immunity

KRyan

also, no, Energy Substitution is not the primary source of what damages are energy damage

LitheOhm

considered "energy." +sonic

it's all the ones I've seen. Psionics powers focus on those five types of energy commonly, etc.

I don't recall any psion or psychic warrior ability dealing neg. Just the five you listed

those are the ones commonly considered "energy."

KRyan

it's very common that things that allow you to choose an energy type are restricted to acid, cold, electricity, fire, maybe force, and maybe sonic

LitheOhm

I just don't believe the RAW is clear-cut on that.

KRyan

15:12

but that doesn't make those an exhaustive list

LitheOhm

two immunities, neither of which include neg energy. That reads to me as more specific than the energy list

KRyan

because neither Energy Substitution, nor energy ball, nor protection from energy are the primary source on what sorts of damage are energy damage

LitheOhm

It's precedent.

KRyan

@LitheOhm not by the rules, it isn't

LitheOhm

How I read them, yes.

KRyan

15:14

@LitheOhm then you are wrong; the rules are very clear-cut about how primary sources are defined; there is no such thing as "precedent" in the rules

LitheOhm

I don't agree. It's just a corner they cut when listing "energy." Protection from energy also doesn't list neg or pos.

gtg, homework

KRyan

@LitheOhm doesn't matter what protection from energy says; protection from energy is not the primary source on what constitutes energy damage

Metool

I'd like to see the definition of negative energy, with page quote, before you continue this, both of you.

BESW

I'd like to see the relevant context; it sounds like @LitheOhm is using a working definition based on the idea that spells like protection from energy, while not exhaustive definitionally, are a decent baseline for practical definitions of what energy resistances you'll encounter in the wild.

KRyan

@BESW which is great but utterly irrelevant since the rules don't recognize that practical definition for anything

BESW

15:18

Also, @KRyan, you explicitly said that he didn't suggest any good spells.

KRyan

@BESW where?

I said he didn't suggest good spells

as in, there were good spells he didn't suggest

BESW

@KRyan If he's arguing from a practical standpoint instead of an exhaustive one, your ivory tower contradictions are meaningless to his argument.

15 mins ago, by KRyan

@LitheOhm which is part of the problem: you didn't mention actually good spells, and then recommended distinctly bad spells

KRyan

yes

BESW

"you didn't mention actually good spells" is easily read as "the spells you mentioned aren't good."

KRyan

"you didn't mention actually good spells" as in "there are actually good spells you didn't mention"

@BESW read? probably; it was a bit unclear. But it's definitely not what I said

BESW

15:19

That's why he started questioning "I said this spell; isn't it good?"

KRyan

@BESW yes, and I clarified

Metool

I'm off to play Borderlands 2

BESW

@KRyan Poorly. You said that he didn't recommend exclusively bad spells. Before you start digging into him about specific definitions and declaring him wrong without ascertaining his conditions, check your own clarity.

You're being needlessly antagonistic about the whole thing.

KRyan

@BESW what? he asked if bestow curse wasn't a good spell, and I said it was and clarified that my statement was not that he didn't recommend any good spells. How much more clarification do I need to do?

@BESW no, that would be you

Metool

@KRyan Nope.

Ah, @Problematic's come to visit, just in time!

Problematic

15:23

[wave]

Alex P

@Problematic ::wave::

KRyan

blargh

BESW

@KRyan Look, you know I don't have a dog in this fight. But "not good" and "not bad" are not the same and if you're going to be a stickler for exactness, people will expect it of you as well.

KRyan

sorry, @BESW, @LitheOhm, if I was overly aggressive, since apparently I was and can't even tell. this isn't meant as a hollow apology a la "sorry you got offended but I'm still right," it's literally meant as being apologetic that I can't even tell

BESW

@KRyan It seemed pretty clear that @LitheOhm is working from an experiential "what you're likely to encounter in the wild" basis, going by things like "this is how it worked in my campaign."

KRyan

15:25

@BESW of course they aren't the same

@BESW and in so doing he gave poor advice that could mislead future readers

> inflict and cure spells (the latter for undead) are your moneymakers

he did not state "this is what worked for me" he said "this is what will work for you"

and they won't, or at least won't as well as other options available to the same character at the same (or less) cost

BESW

That's a clear and legitimate argument.

KRyan

@BESW that was the entirety of my argument from its beginning

also, note that there is some confusion here

because we are also arguing about an unrelated question regarding negative energy against objects

Metool

I'd just like to share this. imgur.com/gallery/hINj1xf

2

BESW

Here's a helpful hint, offered sincerely. If you find yourself typing "then you are wrong", back up and check if you're being belligerent--whether you're right or not.

@Metool This is actually something I run into regularly, although it's usually played for laughs.

The main reason it doesn't happen in shows like Star Trek, Babylon 5, SG-1, and so forth, is that aliens in those universes are actually ciphers of humanity. The aliens are representing the Weird and Terrifying aspects of humanity, distilled into an external form so that we can look at it more objectively and see what it's really like.

Alex P

You'll see it in a variety of s.f., just not usually the stuff that's closest to the "genre fiction" label.

KRyan

15:34

@BESW there was a particularly brilliant one I read recently

BESW

Try The Things by Peter Watts. It's a short story retelling the film The Thing from the point of view of the Thing.

KRyan

I Am Legend is another obvious example

BESW

@KRyan The earlier versions, in particular.

Alex P

Old Man's War is a recent full-novel example. It's set in a very Master-of-Orion kind of galaxy but humans are by far the most aggressive species.

BESW

(Book and first film.)

KRyan

15:35

yeah, I heard that about Will Smith's version (and therefore didn't see it)

BESW

Metro 2023 does it a bit toward the end (the novel, at least; I haven't played the game).

Although one could argue the entire novel is that trope, just without any outsiders to be horrified by it except the reader.

(Some of the most horrifying bits of the novel are when Artyom isn't horrified by what's going on.)

KRyan

not familiar with that one

trying to find the one I'd read recently, it was really good

Alex P

All the Larry Niven stories tend to emphasize humans as adaptable in crazy ways. Often the most intelligent, in a sense.

KRyan

bah, I'll never find it

Alex P

The other species are still very much doing that thing that BESW described, though. Pathologically warlike or pathologically risk-averse or whatever.

KRyan

15:40

basically, it's a story of how humanity became the most feared monsters in the galaxy

BESW

Metro 2023 is a Russian post-apocalyptic novel written a few years ago, about a tiny collection of mini-societies surviving in the metro under Moscow.

KRyan

because they were just a little bit crazy

@AlexP really hard to talk about pathology with non-human species

BESW

The main character, Artyom, does a kind of Gulliver's Travels tour of the different little societies, and encounters different philosophies and ways of governing.

KRyan

@BESW ah, neat

BESW

It's very, very Russian, in the grand tradition of writing great thick books about the many flavors of crazy Russians can be.

There's also... something... on the surface. Mutants who can live on the surface despite the radiation and regularly attack the gateways into the metro.

And although the end gets a bit into who/what the mutants are and what their motives are and how they view the humans huddled in the tunnels, it really only serves to re-emphasize what the readers learned through Artyom's experiences in the tunnels.

Metool

15:45

Alright, well, BL2 for real now.

Alex P

There's a game of it, also:

Metro 2033 (video game)

Metro 2033 is a survival horror first-person shooter video game, based on the novel Metro 2033 by Russian author Dmitry Glukhovsky. It was developed by 4A Games in Ukraine and released in March 2010 for Microsoft Windows and Xbox 360. A PlayStation 3 version was planned, but ultimately cancelled. In March 2006, 4A Games announced a partnership with Glukhovsky to collaborate on the game. The game was announced at the 2009 Games Convention in Leipzig; along with an official trailer. A sequel, ', previously called Metro 2034, was released on May 14, 2013 in North America and May 17, 2013 in ...

If it's at all like a less-buggy STALKER I might enjoy it.

BESW

I've heard good things about it, but it can't be much like the novel or nobody would play it.

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