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17:02
Hmm. I have never seen anyone who did that.
17:13
@wax I am here
@Flotolk hiyo
wanted to chat about your question
mostly, just wanted to make sure you agreed that the question is a duplicate of the one it's been marked a duplicate of
@Flotolk thanks for coming!
Great!
and if not, figure out how we can help
It is, kinda
What they want is just any location... I am searching for a website that shows ALL of the local events
17:15
well, games aren't usually events, though events certainly do happen
for Pathfinder, official events would probably be listed on their website
less-official events, especially local stuff, will probably advertise in local game stores
local game stores are also great places to find regular groups who just get together regularly to play
but going through all of these website (not to mention finding them)n would take topo long
* too long
@wax, thx for inviting me
@Flotolk just doing my best to abuse the power I've been given :)
well, ultimately, I'm not sure that any place is going to just list everything specifically for your area; especially regular groups don't usually announce or "register" their games anywhere
so yeah, you're probably going to have to put in some legwork
that kinda made me sad :(
the way games typically work is a group of friends decide they want to play and just start a game.
17:19
exactly
if you wanted to you could start a game with your friends :)
I have been looking for the past few months, but the only ones ve found are either 1 hour away. or cost money
that's... odd
most of my freinds are moving away for college
gamer freinds btw
mm
the other option is to play online; there are a number of methods for doing that
I've never actually sat down at a table to play
17:20
that sounds promising...
how do I do that, Ive tried D&D over skype, but that didnt work too well
@Flotolk hangouts support it much better
Well, there are such virtual tabletops as Maptool(s) and Roll20.
how expensive are they
quite a few forums also cater to "play-by-post" games, though those have significant problems of their own (namely people stop posting)
so far everything mentioned has been free
Both free. Roll20 is fully browser-based and simpler to run, while Maptools has its own program to run.
And more fully featured.
17:22
there's also a premium virtual tabletop program
forget what it's called; haven't tried it
are they secure? I would hate downloading them just to destroy my PC
yeah, they're clean
Roll20 doesn't involve downloading anything
MapTool does but I've used a lot of their stuff without any problems
it's not the most stable program I've ever run but I've never had anything worse than the program itself crashing so I had to restart it
do I need to download all of them? the website has over a bazillion links
which website?
the RPtools website?
17:25
they offer a number of programs
user61230
I would strongly recommend roll20 over MapTool. I've had some bad experiences as a player in MapTool which I attribute to the program's design, though it could work for some people.
and then for MapTool itself they list every version ever on the website
@Emrakul frankly, there are some features in MapTool that I consider crucial and Roll20 does not replicate
ok, so for pathfinder I need all 5 right?
no
you may not need any
these are programs some groups use
the first step is finding a group, and getting whatever they use
ok, makes sense
user61230
17:26
I haven't really had a chance to play with roll20 to its fullest extent; it seems better than MT, though, from how we've fiddled with it.
@Emrakul when you drag a token, it does not indicate how much distance it's moved, or even where its starting square was, which I find needlessly complicates moving characters around
@Emrakul haven't had a chance to mess with it yet. Last time Brian ran a game TTF still existed
I also rather like MapTool's macro options
though that's probably just me
last game I played online didn't use dice..
user61230
@KRyan That's valid criticism.
user61230
17:28
The problem is, if you're going to use MapTool, you either need to set up port forwarding or use a VPN.
that is true
user61230
And half the time, it doesn't find your appropriate Java path
I dont really trust VPNs,,, they have a tendency to backfire on me...
@Emrakul never had that problem
user61230
Like I say, half the time ;)
17:29
I have used MapTool a lot
user61230
Weird. About half of the people I've played with have had problems with setting up Java paths.
anyway, @Flotolk: there are a number of websites where people advertise games they're running or wish for someone to run
@Emrakul maybe ur PC doesn't like the program. what OS do you use?
@Emrakul I have had issues with conflicting Java versions
@KRyan are you by any chance a java dev?
in that you would have already had the java path set up on your machine?
user61230
17:30
Windows 7 64-bit
user61230
@wax I'm a java dev, and have it set up.
@waxeagle anyone with the JRE should have it set up though
@Metool Even more so if you're playing Kill Pippies 4 Satan. One of the rules is "you can cheat on the scores but don't expect the gm to go easy on you if you get caught"
@waxeagle I am, which is why I have sometimes had version issues
user61230
@KRyan The JRE doesn't automatically add itself to your path.
17:31
@Emrakul no? well I suppose that could easily be the problem
user61230
Yep.
but it's not like I only ever play with Java devs
and no one's had to set up the path before, that I'm aware of
anyway, I'm not going to sing MapTool's praises really; it's a pretty slow and unstable program, and I do tend to wait before upgrading because their releases are pretty hit-and-miss
but like I said, Roll20's got issues too
user61230
IMO, Roll20's stable, and that's what counts. Players can work around the rest
mm
user61230
Which, while hopefully no compensation is needed, is sometimes the case.
17:33
anyways....point being, whatever your group is using, you can get a hold of it pretty easy
thanks for the help... now I can even get my old RPG group together
@Flotolk you could, though don't miss an opportunity to make new friends if this is one :)
I'll be back later
good luck, @Flotolk
I wont, thx.
there's a Hangout plugin for roll 20
or so they say
17:36
@Zachiel TTF put their weight into roll20 so there should be one :)
but theres not?
TTF?
@Flotolk don't know, haven't had a chance to play with it yet
@Zachiel Table Top Forge
I don't get the relationship between TTF and Google but I'll assume there's a good one.
@Zachiel Table Top Forge was a hangouts plugin that came out around the same time as Roll20.
worked pretty darn well.
17:38
roll20 had the plugin as a feature in their ads, I've never tried it.
not quite sure what happened, but TTF closed up shop and put their support behind Roll20
thanks for all the info guys, I gtg now tho
@Flotolk ciao, see yah around
user61230
The Roll20 hangout app looks nice
user61230
17:40
It's a little cramped, though
xykon on a dragon mini! wants
How many people still play DnD 3.5?
A few.
@Aaron A significant but dwindling number.
@Aaron a pretty big chunk of the folks who were still playing 3.5 moved over to Pathfinder when it came out
17:52
Hmm. I was thinking about making a DnD 3.5 application for Character creation, monster lookup and creation and various other things but I might make it ambiguous so it can be used with just about any game with a little bit of work.
@Aaron It's probably pretty easy to make it handle both D&D3.5 and PF, if you separate the data files from the core logic.
Most of the low-level rules stuff, like what a class level is, is the same.
MasterPlan is my inspiration for it as I don't like how MasterPlan is so limited to 4e. It is a wonderful program for 4e but not much else as far as I can tell.
@alexp I think it would be a lot of work but if I don't make it specific to any brand I might be able to sell it for money.
I would have to read extensively on copy write for the various games though.
The thing is, a generic application is still going to either: (1) have a bunch of system expectations baked in that limit it to a couple of systems anyway or (2) be so painfully generic that it's hard to use without massive extensions for every game it supports (in which case you are making a framework, not a ready-to-use app).
Hmm. I could make the framework and then expand out the most used systems.
It all depends though as if I make it too detailed I could be sued. The guy who made MasterPlan almost was sued.
My perception is that if you make it too good in general you'll get a C&D.
17:57
@Aaron Have you taken a look at Legend, at all?
No. What is Legend?
D&D-based. Expanded into its own thing from an optimization contest's houserules set.
Ok.
18:28
is that all?
Wark.
18:42
Hey all. Anyone alive?
@corgrath Hi. What's up?
Hey. Is this a purely web based chat, or is this like IRC in the background - just curious :-)
Ah, its not based on IRC. Ok, thanks :-)
@corgrath FAQ says web-only with potential for XMPP later maybe.
user61230
19:36
XMPP is... tricky. It's deferred, and I get the impression it's far down their list.
user61230
@AlexP I figured out what I want to do with the Qunden, and it's open enough as to possibly be relevant if the players would like. Torden's (the head of the Taiden) advisor is going to be... not quite as loyal to the Taiden, and kidnapped Torden's son and daughter. He's secretly blackmailing Torden to "help out the Qunden." As a result, the Qun have had a run of good luck in the markets, but there's growing suspicion around them, and they're not quite sure why.
That could work. Though don't absolve the rulers of their responsibility for this whole mess. ;)
I feel like it's an element you can leave in the background, signposted vaguely. And if the players go that way, they can run into it and explore this other angle, or they can solve the immediate crisis and this side thing can come up later-ish.
If at all.
user61230
That's true. I think Torden would still be held responsible, if his negligence is ever revealed.
user61230
Yeah. The players have a few places to go with this session, all of which could be interesting.
Maybe save the kidnapping for a twist?
Although, really, once there's a kidnapping, the gloves are off. It seems like there's not much reason to cooperate with the guild.
user61230
19:46
But it's not the Qun's or Taiden's fault, it's Torden's chief adviser.
user61230
It's a weird situation, and it really depends how it unfolds.
user61230
And, if they choose not to work with either guild, they still need to address the Cult.
Here's what I think I'd do with the guild. They've brought in mercenaries to protect their own investments (including massively overpriced food shipments).
Those mercenaries could be a resource in a number of ways, if redirected.
But right now they are mainly a nuisance.
user61230
Yeah. One of the three heads of the Qunden is a militia leader of sorts. That was somewhat the plan.
And a background element that serves to illustrate that (1) the famine is bad, but also (2) the famine is also class warfare.
user61230
19:48
Though having them guard shipments could be interesting.
user61230
The Cult is smuggling something in on a ship. It is probably stored with a cargo of food.
Oooh, yes. Involving the cult in all the other stuff is a good way to reveal the setting while the characters still pursue the main thread.
Because most of the cult members also have a "day job," right?
user61230
Yeah. There are two fronts for the Cult; there's the small planning area, and there's the actual cult building.
user61230
Most of them are merchants during the day, though their positions are varied.
user61230
Torden has decided to leave the Cult be, so when they're on business, they wear lavish green cloaks. People avoid them, but they're not criminals.
user61230
19:52
He's kind of oblivious to the political climate.
I like that idea a lot. Because it saves you from wishy-washy "investigation" time.
user61230
Hmm. What would be a good illegal import that would be powerful in a spell?
user61230
Yeah. Players sit down and get to business, and don't need to bother with finding people. Finding people isn't particularly interesting.
What kind of fantasy setting is this, roughly speaking? High fantasy? Sword-and-sorcery? GoT-ish dirty-medieval?
user61230
Somewhere between Sword and Sworcery and GoT?
19:54
The sword-and-sorcery answer to imports is going to be, like, crazy drugs you take to put yourself into a trance that lets you access the Astral Plane or commune with your dark dead god or whatever.
user61230
I think I'll call it melano, and it shall be a hallucinogen. An addictive one. One which people mistake to be communication with the gods above
I mean, there's not just the one answer. But still.
user61230
I mean, it makes sense. Nobody would question that weird cult getting a shipment of a hallucinogen, even if it's illegal.
@Emrakul Don't 100% decide it's a mistake, though. Maybe there is something to the contact with the divine business. At least for people who really are initiated into the cult's mysteries.
user61230
Hmm. You're right, I should leave that open.
user61230
19:58
So, currently, I have three ingredients for this spell, and I think that's enough.
user61230
- Four healthy sacrifices (which means they need to be well-fed) (which means they effectively need to be high class merchants or nobles)
- Melano, to power the spell and divine focus
- 1kg of solid gold to burn for energy and two diamonds to store it in while they're casting the spell
What does the spell do? Allow them to subvert the government?
Maybe turn the ruler into a mental puppet?
user61230
That gives the PCs three leads into the Cult. Plus, they need to find the Cult's hiding place. And then there are political shenanigans which get in the gears.
user61230
The spell seals off the city so that nothing gets in or out without approval of the cult leader Xavier.
user61230
The economy collapses, and he is free to make the demands he wishes.
20:06
What does the seal look like?
user61230
It's a pinkish membrane-like translucent bubble that extends out from the top of the town's shiny new clock tower.
Why is the clock tower the centerpiece of the town? What does it say about their society?
Also, totally look at how ridiculously fancy old-timey clock towers are.
user61230
The clock tower is actually an invention of the Cult of the Dominus.
user61230
It's not too fancy, as it's a relatively modern idea. Most major intersections have sundials. It's also not incredibly tall, but it towers over most of the other buildings.
user61230
It's definitely a centerpiece, though, and serves to impress inbound merchants with the message that this city is advanced.
20:10
So they've decided that telling time exactly is important
user61230
Not necessarily telling it exactly, but that most people should have a sense of the time.
Sure, but it is an interesting departure from the rest of the world.
Assuming mostly fantasy-medieval tech.
user61230
It's a symbol. The people don't feel too strongly about it as a whole, but it definitely serves a function, and it would be sorely missed.
user61230
Hmm.
user61230
I see what you're saying.
user61230
20:13
Hmm. How about this: Since the Dominus are already technologically advanced, they invented the idea of a clock tower. Since it's a merchant city, the technological understanding is important for business, since the flow of ideas is just as important as---this is too convoluted.
user61230
Yeah, you're right, it's out of place.
user61230
How about this; instead of a clock tower, the spell extends from the tops of the four parapets of Taiden's keep in the center of the city.
That makes sense. What I like about that is that it creates the potential for Taiden to blunder into the final scene, if the players end up having to face the cult in their ritual space.
user61230
And it'll be hard to set up a casting circle underground without generating some suspicion.
user61230
I'm... more nervous than I probably should be about running this campaign >_>
20:21
Just play the one-shot you have. Don't worry about which elements will continue into the future.
You'll figure out what you like naturally soon enough.
user61230
Yeah.
user61230
Everything is so... precariously balanced in this city.
Revel in it. :)
Watch them WRECK UP THE PLACE.
Part of the appeal of Fate over D&D is that it's easier to have adventures that just turn everything UPSIDE DOWN.
user61230
Ahaha yeah! I'm excited to try this out. It's going to be very interesting.
user61230
Thank you so much for your help. This is going to be a good one-shot.
20:38
Kick butt! Reveal all the sweet things you've come up with in play! Play your villains to the hilt and then laugh when the PCs crush them anyway. :D
user61230
MANIACAL LAUGHTER SHALL SLAUGHTER ALL. THAT IS THE ULTIMATE WEAPON!
user61230
Er---what?
20:57
Well, I'm off to play BW. Have fun!
user61230
Will do! You too!
@InbarRose Hello!
 
1 hour later…
22:26
For some reason, I don't buy Improved Initiative as a good feat
(3.5/PF)
22:49
@shatterspike1 It's not great unless it's part of a cocktail that guarantees you go first and have something worthwhile to use first.
That's what I figured. It seems like it would be better spent on Extra (Class feature), Metamagic, or the like
Pretty much.
But Pathfinder (and presumably 3.5) exist with trap options to make players feel clever for not falling for them.
That's what they say, anyway.
(I imagine they just don't get game balance.)
I read over my 3.5 recently and was shocked to learn that spell focus grants only a +1 to DCs instead of +2. That's... terrible.
@shatterspike1 That's because it was too powerful at +2 back in 3.0.
So they nerfed it without removing it altogether.
+1 and having an odd score for DCs granting +1 would have been a nice compromise
22:58
How is +2 too powerful? It's a great option, sure, but it isn't like there aren't other competitive choices.
I imagine Toughness was the balance point.
@shatterspike1 Because Greater Spell Focus was worth a total of +4, which is essentially a straight-up 20% bonus to your effectiveness as a character.
+2 to your save DCs is much more powerful than +2 to attack, for instance. Because the spells where save DC matters most aren't "do some incremental damage," they're essentially "X% chance to end the encounter."
It's because of stacking, stacking, stacking to crank up the DCs.
This is why bonus types need to exist.
They could have... removed greater spell focus.
Spell Focus would still be a good feat.
23:02
But not amazeballs.
A must-have, rather.
I feel like it would still be automatic for 80% of wizards.
Ehhhh.
Unless you start introducing a ton of nastier feats from random splatbooks.
This is why I enjoy Legend.
It's way better than Weapon Specialization.
23:03
So wizards would have their version of power attack
I mean, why did they ruin one kind of fun feat? Because they couldn't figure out how to make the other 90% of feats fun at all. That is just a thing that happens.
It's kinda the definition of a nerf.
The best nerf is buffing everything else
I don't think boosting monster saves across the board would be a good fix there, though.
You know what?
I'm going to do up a statblock, I think.
I meant in terms of keeping the other feats on par
23:08
@shatterspike1 What actually happens when you try to tune up 30 feats to match 3 other feats? You just end up with 3 new feats that are the must-have bests.
Kind of at random.
Not necessarily, if they each present different options of roughly equivalent power level. That does sound like a hell of a lot more work though.
Sometimes, the best fix for an overused ability is to improve other abilities. Across the board categorically? No, you're kinda dooming yourself to power creep.
@shatterspike1 Well, yes, if they balanced it all perfectly, it wouldn't a problem. But, well, see Magic the Gathering. Which is more thoroughly designed and tested (against a much simpler set of criteria than are involved in testing an RPG game) and still 5-10% of the cards always float to the top.
@AlexP Not really, as long as you have a clear balance point in mind.
Related, pick one: Skilled or Martial
@Metool What is "a clear balance point." Define it very specifically.
Otherwise you're saying "Your game won't suck as long as you make sure it doesn't suck!"
An ability or bonus that provides the expected baseline for effectiveness of an ability or bonus, measurable.
23:14
So, how do you compare Power Attack to... Evard's Black Tentacles?
You don't. One deals damage, the other wins an encounter.
So your answer is "never make an ability like Evard's Black Tentacles, with any numbers"?
Make things that win encounters, or make things that plainly deal damage, but for god's sake don't mix the two.
My answer is make them on par with each other. We're talking Tier 1 vs. Tier 3 at best here.
This would require not 3.5 or most variants
Oi, pick one: Martial or Skilled.
23:18
So, what's the magic formula? Because y'all are saying the magic formula is actually just "eyeball it, but do a good job."
There is no magic formula, indeed.
@AlexP No, it's "eyeball it, do a good job, playtest, revise, eyeball it..."
Since most abilities will have more components to them than just strict numbers.
The idea isn't to eliminate the top tier abilities, it's to bring the other abilities close enough that no one will care.

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