Root Access

echristopherson

00:09

takes jims that are slim; and gum of the bubble

Bob

00:58

6

!

echristopherson

01:15

yay VS

Journeyman Geek

01:28

whoot badge!

DragonLord

02:21

1

A: Hosts file redirect to domain

The hosts file is called hosts for a reason, it is about exactly that, hosts. You can redirect a hostname to a different IP, but not a specific location at that ip. What you are trying to do is not supported, because you aren't directing a host to an IP, you are directing to an address. Single H...

New user off to a great start.

Journeyman Geek

03:14

@allquixotic: techreport.com/news/27299/… seem familiar?

Journeyman Geek

03:44

shirish

04:01

umm... is there a unix chat room herein, does anybody know ?

Psycogeek

04:29

@shirish a good way to get to something like that, find the stack exchange site that covers that topic unix.stackexchange.com then at the bottom, find the Chat text link button

@shirish which then puts you around here chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/26/unix-and-linux

jokerdino

05:53

@echristopherson hey you!

DragonLord

06:39

@JourneymanGeek If I'm concerned about reliability, should I select an enterprise SSD instead?

Not sure how something like a Samsung SSD 845DC EVO would perform in a client use case...

I'm not building a new PC anytime soon, just evaluating my options.

The main storage solution would be a 512 GB-class SSD (this includes certain enterprise products with specified capacities as low as 400 GB)

A 2 TB high-performance 7200 RPM hard drive (e.g. WD Black) will be used for storage of large data files such as photos and videos

OS, applications, and documents go on the SSD

This is what I'm looking at:

newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA0ZX1W07275

Samsung SSD 845DC EVO, 480 GB—US$550 retail, about $400-450 street

Good for 300 TB TBW

I'm not worried about endurance, I'm worried about reliability

That's why I'm considering an enterprise SSD in the first place

Journeyman Geek

06:57

@DragonLord: I'd probably look at an 850

and my 840 seems to be doing ok so far. I prefer a certain degree of redundancy where it comes to reliability. IE, I back everything up in different places since all hardware does follow a bell curve

Psycogeek

@DragonLord the word "enterprise" and "pro" might have more meaning if it was old school SLC

DragonLord

@Psycogeek SLC is very rare these days

Even high-end datacenter drives are eMLC

Journeyman Geek

@DragonLord: I suspect most of the 'enterprise' features on SSDs are endurance related.

Psycogeek

like what enterprise or pro wants something that is guarenteed not to last :-) built to fail, internally self destructing, Would they buy 6T overlapping write disks?

Journeyman Geek

(like more 'spare' nand space

@Psycogeek: or to fail reliably

that is to say be VERY likely to work for the expected lifecycle of the drive

Psycogeek

07:00

yea thas it, Overprovisioned like a pro

DragonLord

Samsung SSD 845DC PRO uses 3D VNAND

It's good for 10 full drive writes a day, every day, for five years

Journeyman Geek

That's endurance. ;p

DragonLord

Not that I would need that sort of endurance

400 GB version retails at $960, street price $720-730

Journeyman Geek

If I built another system (which I'm not), I'd probably get an 850 pro

Same 3d Nand, significantly cheaper.

wait... what?

the 850 pros apparently have a 10 year warranty.

DragonLord

@JourneymanGeek Yes, it's a 10-year warranty

Psycogeek

07:06

i wish i had the pro, not the evo, one little misteak on the way to the store, the price differnce is little

DragonLord

But the lack of power loss protection is a dealbreaker

Journeyman Geek

@Psycogeek: I had a very oddly limited budget so I got the non pro

@DragonLord: how often do you lose power?

Its not a major issue for me, I've never really had data loss on a power trip

Psycogeek

Hopefully the rest of it will make little differnce too, warrnties for the most part are not very useful anymore

DragonLord

@JourneymanGeek Not often, but I have overhead power lines where I live and momentary power cuts can happen during severe weather

Yes, I've considered the Intel SSD 730 as well

That's one of the few consumer drives to have power-loss protection

Because it's based on the Intel SSD DC S3500 enterprise drive, I'm pretty confident about the reliability

Psycogeek

ya know batteries on raid systems, will last less time than a UPSes lead acid POS, because they apply li-ion poly.

DragonLord

07:11

It's basically an S3500 with overclocked controller and NAND

...and tweaked firmware for consumer use

Controllers are cherry-picked for 600 MHz operation

Psycogeek

I am looking at the BBU, going, ok for a cell phone, but really not going to cut it unless there is 2 year replacment. and while some people can put stuff on a calander and follow it, do they really when it comes time?

Many people apply the regulated UPS to the whole computer, to save the whole electronics of the thing, so the point of backing up one aspect becomes redundant. all to save 2 files?

save the whole computer instead :-)

if people really did maintance and toss things as fast as they intended to when justifying a purchace, if computers were not designed to last time, then that doesnt explain waiting till the cmos battery dies before they replace it :-)

DragonLord

07:26

@JourneymanGeek To what extent would I notice the rather slow sequential write performance of these enterprise drives?

Journeyman Geek

@DragonLord: I'm not entirely sure. I use my drives funny

MOST of my writes end up on the spinning rust drive

DragonLord

The Intel SSD 730 (which is at the top of my list) is based on an enterprise drive and suffers from relatively slow write performance

anandtech.com/show/7803/intel-ssd-730-480gb-review/4

Both sequential and random

In a client workload, peak performance is more important than sustained performance

(although I do appreciate being able to get consistent, reliable I/O service times even under heavy load)

It's better than any of the enterprise solutions I described earlier

The 480GB version is good for 70 GB a day for five years, or 128 TB TBW

Psycogeek

I have not yet seen my ssd slow down, windows is trimming it, and i cheat and defrag it rarely, the numbers shown on a benchie (which dont mean a whole lot) have not varied by more than like 8% or so

DragonLord

Unlike most client SSDs, the Intel 730 behaves like an enterprise drive and has the write performance consistency to match

Psycogeek

They can also be secure erased (actually cleared) and there wouldnt be stuff strewn about in 1/2 blocks and all.

DragonLord

07:34

The only thing it lacks is hardware self-encrypting capability, and that's not something I need

I am worried, though, about poor performance in some of the more realistic benchmarks

storagereview.com/intel_ssd_730_series_review

The StorageMark 2010 Productivity benchmark results, in particular, are very poor

Should I just get the much faster Samsung SSD 850 PRO instead?

Journeyman Geek

;p

43 mins ago, by Journeyman Geek

If I built another system (which I'm not), I'd probably get an 850 pro

DragonLord

It's actually a good deal more expensive than the (likely more reliable) Intel 730.

I think I'll just go with a 512 GB Samsung SSD 850 PRO and put the whole system behind a Tripp Lite SmartOnline double-conversion UPS.

Not cheap at all, but it's the best protection you can get against power failures.

Psycogeek

07:51

do they explain why it shows low in specific benchmarks? when it is not terrible in others?

DragonLord

@Psycogeek Yeah, I found the Intel 730's write performance numbers puzzling low

This certainly stems from the fact that the 730 is built around an enterprise SSD architecture optimized for consistent steady-state I/O performance rather than peak performance

Not sure why it performed so poorly on StorageMark Productivity

Where it does excel is when put in RAID on a system using Intel RST

Psycogeek

47picofarads is the power backup method? is more like a light cleanup sized , which would still be better than none. The electronics people would be able to do the math for how many miliseconds that would last. and caps when used as power sources the voltage varies a LOT as they go down.

DragonLord

@Psycogeek From what I've read, user data is not put on the DRAM cache

It's just to finish up any writes in progress

Psycogeek

making it more enterprisey :-) less write back more write through (as intel would call it)

DragonLord

I've got to get to work, so see ya

Psycogeek

08:01

which would explain the lack of real power for the backup, and the speed of a productivity benchmark, writing out .Doc sized files.

Omen

hi all, world domination is in my grasp

Psycogeek

oh?

Omen

yes, yes indeed

Psycogeek

do tell of this plan ?

Omen

first, the library, then the grocer, then the world!!! (and possibly several steps therein)

nh, got published again and I am wallowing in my own crapulence

Psycogeek

08:18

punished? you wrote up an entire help sheet and didnt get paid again?

Omen

publishd, not punished (that comes later)

Psycogeek

08:29

where did you get published? on facebook? twitter?

Journeyman Geek

@Omen: Publish or Perish? ;p

DragonLord

@JourneymanGeek We're not in Academia

Omen

published in an international journal

Journeyman Geek

@DragonLord: Technically @Omen is

Omen

partly

Journeyman Geek

08:37

and I just got out of undergrad purgatory less than a month ago ;p

Omen

@JourneymanGeek congrats!!

Journeyman Geek

@Omen: I believe my exact words were "About fucking time!" ;p

Omen

LOL

Journeyman Geek

(Though, I must say, murdoch's forensics classes are awesome)

Omen

what next?

Psycogeek

08:55

it is a nicholas cage sci-fi flick from 2007 imdb.com/title/tt0435705/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

Journeyman Geek

looking for a job

shirish

@Psycogeek @Psycogeek I don't see the chat button at the bottom.

Psycogeek

then your not looking hard enough, although it is not easy to find, just blended in with the rest of the stuff, that is not a priority for the makers.

shirish

The chat at the very bottom goes to chat.stackexchange.com and next to the RSS feed of recent questions

Psycogeek

it worked for me, but i am "special" :-)

Bob

10:47

Psycogeek

11:21

wannabe fox

Journeyman Geek

11:32

superuser.com/q/835208/10165 this seems... dubious

Psycogeek

the creation of a sms spammer?

"The question is not clear what your asking, and one might suspect that if it was clear it either has a law against it or should have one" :-)

In california, it is "illegal" to have a robot call people for sales calls. if you get all the information to prove it , and they keep doing it over and over, you can get $500 in court, it is not worth $500 to go to court :-) but the law is there.

oh i guess he is asking for the sms servers (so to speak) like having a list of e-mail servers?

Tom Wijsman

13:35

@Psycogeek Yes, but read better into it; it is fishy.

allquixotic

14:24

hii

Journeyman Geek

loo!

Oliver Salzburg

14:37

Does anyone know how Chrome identifies inputs when trying to auto-fill them?

I'm trying to find the cause for this problem:

allquixotic

@OliverSalzburg I hate when it tries to fill in your last name as your username (or vice versa) on sites that ask for username/email/firstname/lastname during registration. I turned that feature off

Or should I say

@[email protected] I hate when it tries to fill in your last name as your username (or vice versa) on sites that ask for username/email/firstname/lastname during registration. I turned that feature off

Bob

15:08

@allquixotic Heh, finally decided to buy a licence for LINQPad.

Oliver Salzburg

@allquixotic The thing is, I'm working on the website here. I need to make sure stuff like that doesn't happen :P

Bob

@allquixotic ...I've never had/noticed that.

Darth Android

15:27

@OliverSalzburg It's supposed to use the id="name" attributes on the input fields.

so it's totally possible to have an input labelled "Username" with an id attribute of "title" on a website that uses emails for usernames that could cause something like that

(and after that, Chrome will think your email is valid autofill for any field with id="title")

There might be additional heuristics now, though

allquixotic

is there an RFC for that? if not, I wouldn't even bother

a server cannot prevent a client from doing stupid things that inconvenience the user

if there's no standard and it's just de facto behavior, it could change tomorrow and you're up a creek

or two browsers (or popular versions) could have mutually conflicting behavior that makes it impossible to make everyone happy

I suppose you could make every field a password to properly prevent the behavior, but that would have its own major repercussions ;p

Darth Android

15:44

@allquixotic That philosophy works when you're building enterprise software that is going to be forced down the users' throats whether they want it or not, but if we're talking about general consumers...

allquixotic

yeah

Darth Android

You can set an attribute on each field to disable the auto-fill behavior

(Also, said above philosophy is why I work in enterprise software...)

allquixotic

@DarthAndroid I detected an unspoken "MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA" at the end of that line

Oliver Salzburg

@DarthAndroid Are you sure it uses the id attributes and not name?

Darth Android

@OliverSalzburg No, not sure. It might use name.

@allquixotic Sssshhh. ;)

user116848

17:26

My Firefox keeps telling me to download 'a file' since I upgraded to its latest version. It says to download this file: openh264-win32-v1.1-Firefox33.zip. I am getting the message through my Internet download Manager. Any ideas how can I stop the message?

user116848

I am not getting rid of the Internet Download Manager because it is not its fault. It has been happening since I upgraded the Firefox.

user116848

Ping me if you have any solutions.

user116848

Thanks in advance!

allquixotic

@Arrowfar Not sure what "Internet Download Manager" is, but Firefox may be trying to download the OpenH264 runtime automatically in order to install it into Firefox so it can play back H264 video.

You may have to temporarily disable this download manager just so Firefox can do its thing, then turn it back on later.

phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTgxMzQ

user116848

I see. Yeah, it looks like some codec file.

user116848

17:31

@allquixotic Thanks! So, next time when I get the message I can download the file too manually? I mean it is not some virus, right?

allquixotic

@Arrowfar No, it doesn't seem to be a virus; it's just that Firefox can't legally distribute the OpenH264 SDK within itself because of software patents in some countries.

So it tries to download it automatically.

But just downloading it probably won't make Firefox happy. It needs to run code to do something with the download after it's finished.

It needs to be able to get it on its own, rather than going through a download manager.

Awal Garg

Google released a super awesome extension for chrome!!!

user116848

@allquixotic Ah, I see.

Awal Garg

chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/bookmark-manager/…

user116848

Okay, I have turned off the download manager.

user116848

17:34

Thanks.

Canadian Luke

19:22

clientsfromhell.net/post/101581397960/…

Michael Frank

19:49

@CanadianLuke That story got ripped to shreds in the comment section.

Canadian Luke

Makes for a good read though, @MichaelFrank

Anyone here play an Android game called 'Brave Trials'?

Michael Frank

I played that for a while.

Got to the f2p wall after a couple of weeks.

Canadian Luke

f2p?

Michael Frank

free to play.

Canadian Luke

I am constantly getting codes for more and more upgrades

Just gotta hang out their forum

Michael Frank

19:56

I prefer Brave Frontier.

Canadian Luke

I may need to try that one

Michael Frank

It's quite a lot of fun.

Boris_yo

@Psycogeek Not exactly because I think it's not something exclusive and service provider can also use it.

@CanadianLuke @MichaelFrank Do you know how to target all Facebook photos I am tagged in that my friends published and ask for removal?

Canadian Luke

@Boris_yo You know I don't have a Facebook, right?

Michael Frank

I hardly ever use Facebook. Mostly I just use it as a messaging tool.

Canadian Luke

20:03

And no Jeff Winger in the world is going to change that for me

Blog bot

Blog - Stack Exchange: Stack Exchange for the iPad is here – and iOS apps now support iOS 8

Kasra Rahjerdi on November 03, 2014

When we launched our iOS and Android apps, we were pretty sure they’d help our most active users in a couple of ways:

Push inbox notifications are epic – you can know the minute you get an answer or someone comments on your post.

The personalized mobile feed lets you browse all content relevant to you, whether it’s posts from your communities or replies to your posts.

Voting, commenting, and minor edits are all things you often want to do when you’re away from your desktop, and an interface built for touch makes them a breeze. …

Boris_yo

My friends are not complying to my order of removing me.

Michael Frank

@Boris_yo You can untag yourself, or report the image.

Your 'friends' don't have to comply with your orders.

Boris_yo

@MichaelFrank Untag is not good because photo of me is still there. Untagging assumes searching for all photos of me manually.

Canadian Luke

While you're at it, wanna check for pictures of me? If they exist there, anyways...

Boris_yo

20:07

@MichaelFrank They don't? Just as they don't have to ask my permission to publish photo I am on?

Michael Frank

If they aren't complying, then report the image for being used without permission. Facebook are generally pretty fast with this as well, especially if you are tagged in it.

But I think the larger issue is that of your friends not respecting you or your wishes not to have pictures of you online.

@Boris_yo facebook.com/help/212466865441659/…

Darth Android

@MichaelFrank If the friend is the person that took the photo then it is being "used with permission" - permission from the copyright holder.

Boris_yo has very little (legal) say about the pictures unless he was the one that actually took the pictures and holds the copyright to them.

Michael Frank

Yes, which is why I posted the actual Facebook page about this issue.

Hennes

20:23

Or if you are in the picture "portret recht"

At least under Dutch law. No idea how the UK/USA handles it.

Boris_yo

@DarthAndroid @MichaelFrank How about cropping picture from myself?

@MichaelFrank "Service Unavailable"

Michael Frank

What if I don’t like a photo I’m tagged in?

Even well-meaning friends sometimes tag you in photos that are unflattering or that you'd rather not share. If you’re not happy with a photo you’re tagged in, you can remove the tag.

Facebook can’t make people remove photos that don’t violate our Statement of Rights and Responsibilities. However, if simply removing the tag isn't enough, you have a few options:

Send a message to the person who tagged you asking them to take it down
Block the person who tagged you, which removes the tag and prevents them from tagging or contacting you on Facebook

@Boris_yo ^

Boris_yo

20:40

@MichaelFrank Cheers

DragonLord

I've been think about SSD performance and endurance management

Would it be a good idea if I partitioned a 512 GB-class drive to just 256 GB, put the OS on that partition, and expand the partition only if necessary?

The rest of the space would be left unallocated.

Boris_yo

@MichaelFrank I just tried deleting some of my photos on Facebook but after I clicking on "Confirm" nothing happens. Is there timely delay or something?

DragonLord

Right now, my 64GB Plextor M5M has only 48 GiB partitioned.

Michael Frank

@Boris_yo I'm not sure.

@DragonLord, Wouldn't the drive still only use the blocks dedicated for wear leveling (or whatever).

Oh, you mean to prevent partitioned blocks from being used until absolutely necessary?

DragonLord

20:58

@MichaelFrank As I understand it, the system will only write to the LBAs in the partition, but the SSD will always have a certain amount of free space and will spread the writes across all of the available NAND.

If the partitioned area is fully written and it hasn't been cleaned up or trimmed, it will be able to write to the spare space at the NAND level and map it to the correct LBAs as the OS sees them, without having to erase the blocks with obsolete data first.

Canadian Luke

Just out of curiosity, could one of you guys look at this answer of mine, and let me know if I can actually improve it or not?

DragonLord

I hate exclusivity agreements

Source

Michael Frank

@DragonLord Those look amazing T_T

DragonLord

I suppose this is what happened: Kellogg's approached several retailers with this product; Target came forward and said, "we will not carry your product unless you promise not to sell it elsewhere"

Michael Frank

@DragonLord That's likely.

DragonLord

21:06

I personally don't see how this can meaningfully benefit Kellogg's as it would limit the sales channels available

Michael Frank

@CanadianLuke I guess the only way to improve it would be to figure out why one PAUSE isn't enough for his particular case.

Canadian Luke

@MichaelFrank But he admits in his comments it was his own mistake, but I still got two downvotes... One came in after he admitted he made the mistake

Grrr, small things like that just irritate me

DragonLord

So I don't believe Kellogg's would have put the exclusivity clause in the distribution contract unless a retailer demanded it

Michael Frank

@CanadianLuke Ahh yea... I didn't see that comment. That's rough. Have an upvote.

Canadian Luke

Thanks

Michael Frank

21:08

I guess just a disclaimer at the top linking to OPs admission of fault?

That might stem the tide of bandwagon downvotes.

DragonLord

Kellogg's probably wanted to set a higher price for this product, and Target responded "we'll sell your product only if we get exclusivity" to avoid competition because a premium version of an otherwise common product could be unprofitable in the presence of competition

I am not a sales analyst or marketer, so these are educated guesses at best

@MichaelFrank, do you agree, or are there other possible reasons?

Michael Frank

That's the thing though, Kellogg's are probably large enough that they can say "This is the price you will sell our product at".

DragonLord

@MichaelFrank My reasoning is that because this is a premium, limited-edition product, sales volume would be lower. This makes it more difficult to clear inventory, increasing risk of loss especially if competing retailers were to sell it

On the other hand, this may to an extent be a Veblen good for the simple reason that it is a limited edition—but the risk of loss is still higher than ordinary strawberry/cherry/blueberry/brown sugar cinnamon/s'mores/etc. Pop-Tarts

No retailer would want to pay more to the supplier for a special version of a product if there's a significant risk they can't clear stock

@allquixotic, great that you just joined in

What underlying business reason do you think might exist for the Target exclusivity of the limited-edition 50th anniversary Chocomallow Sundae Pop-Tarts?

Michael Frank

21:30

@DragonLord Money.

;)

allquixotic

@DragonLord the same as for the AT&T exclusivity of iPhones and iPads at first.

DragonLord

13 mins ago, by DragonLord

@MichaelFrank My reasoning is that because this is a premium, limited-edition product, sales volume would be lower. This makes it more difficult to clear inventory, increasing risk of loss especially if competing retailers were to sell it

@allquixotic Is this a reasonable guess or am I missing something?

allquixotic

with digital goods, when the cost per unit involves sending some bits over the internet at an actual cost around 2 cents per gigabyte, you would be silly to raise your prices so high that the preponderance of your users can't afford to buy it (or would consider it a bad bargain). You can make much more money by maximizing your sales volume.

with physical goods, when the cost per unit involves moving large quantities of baryons around and performing various permanent chemical changes at fairly high manufacturing prices (and then Q&A, safety, etc), raising prices and being exclusive isn't a bad thing, especially when your base price (the price to start with for a generic or ordinary item of the same kind) is low enough that even poor people can afford it.

Michael Frank

To be honest, it's probably less likely that they want to reduce the chance of dead stock and more likely that they simply want to (exclusively) sell something that will bring in impulse buying customers.

allquixotic

your margins are slimmer with physical goods, especially food, because the expense of producing and safely delivering that food intact is enormous

in this case I would agree with Michael -- it's not about the food; it's about getting feet in the store

but if the prices are higher and the item is exclusive, even if it's nearly double the "base" price of a typical package of similar food, people are still likely to buy it, because we're not talking about amounts that you have to take a mortgage out for

it doesn't work as well on things like cars, because while you might be able to afford a $35,000 car if you really really want it and value it for prestige, only the ruling class would be able to afford a $100,000+ car, irrespective of how badly they want it.

DragonLord

21:38

@allquixotic I thought about that, too, but it's curious that a retailer would demand exclusivity for this sort of product to drive impulse sales

allquixotic

you have to be able to hook up consumer desire to purchase with actual purchase, which starts with pricing within the range of the preponderance of your users, while still making some profit. my understanding is that in the food industry, typical (non-special) products run at razor-thin margins

when you have huge numbers of consumers who desire a product but can't afford it, and only the upper crust can afford it, you're foregoing revenue, so you would only produce items like that if the production costs are so high that you cannot price it lower

when you have the preponderance of your target audience affording an item with ease with tons of money left over and your profits are negative or razor-thin, and everyone's buying it, raising prices is fine

food is currently in that category

Michael Frank

@DragonLord Most retailers think basket size. They'd probably be losing out on the deal if the people that buy this product only buy this one product.

allquixotic

that too

you wouldn't see this kind of promotion on a digital storefront because it's too easy to just buy the item you want and get out without being influenced by solicitations for other items.. unless they made it mandatory that you spend $50 or more in the store or something like that

(which is what most digital storefronts do instead of incentivizing store visits with sugary foods)

want this 50% off thing? great! now spend another $50 and it's yours

DragonLord

@allquixotic So how does the higher price of this product tie in with the exclusivity? Is it as I said, or is there some other reason?

Or is it just to drive impulse sales from customers who would otherwise never go to Target?

allquixotic

@DragonLord typically exclusivity and higher price go hand in hand: exclusivity leads to scarcity; scarcity leads to demand; demand leads to price increases

someone who went to Target specifically because they want to buy and then eat these nommy things are not going to even look at the price sticker, probably

DragonLord

21:49

@allquixotic Okay, I get it. They're trying to drive sales of the product itself. The added impulse buys are a beneficial side effect.

allquixotic

and they'll very likely get other stuff in Target too

if people are going to Target because they want to buy clothes and see the noms and buy them, that's one thing, but I don't think that's the focus, really

those people might have more willpower because their intention in going to the store is not to buy the noms

their intention is to buy clothing, and they might even think, "if I eat those, I won't be able to fit in these clothes"

the people who go to Target because they want the noms are the ideal customer, because they get you in the door, sell overpriced noms, and then you buy other stuff

they do a ridiculous amount of market research on this stuff (nowadays involving a fair bit of Big Data)

they probably found that there are enough people who want these products that they're willing to go to a store they don't normally go to in order to buy them

and once you're in the door, you're going to make the most of your trip by picking up anything else you might need

DragonLord

...and this also carries the implication that without the exclusivity, there might not be enough demand and there's a very real risk of loss if you just tried to sell the product with several other retailers also selling it

@allquixotic Starbucks does a great job of using Big Data as well

allquixotic

not only that, but if they had these same products in every grocery store, people would not go to Target to buy expensive clothes/jewelery/whatever

grocery stores are a public interest kind of thing, and they're run ALMOST at charity levels of profit these days, because their operating costs and the costs of their suppliers are monumental, and their buyers are always looking for the best prices

they're a labor of love, basically. feed people. do it because it's the right thing to do

but there's no big margin stuff in grocery stores

Target however, does have huge margin items

DragonLord

@allquixotic so they'd rather not pass up on the opportunity to bring up profits

allquixotic

@DragonLord right

DragonLord

21:55

...and yes, I've heard that supermarkets and the like run on extremely low profit margins, as in 0.3% low

allquixotic

people have much less of an emotional connection with food, because eating Pop Tarts or Ore Ida french fries does not make you a cool guy who looks hot in sunglasses and tight jeans.

but clothing and apparel has a HUUUUGE cultural and personal self-worth impact on people

the emotional pull they feel with clothing and jewelery and such is so great that they are willing to look beyond the price and get what they actually want

what they feel will give them the most status

DragonLord

@allquixotic I can't believe the retail sector is this reliant on these kinds of product sales

allquixotic

even I'm vulnerable to it; I bought an expensive black wool coat that I get professionally dry-cleaned

it makes me feel like a million dollars when I'm wearing it, even though I'm a gross old man ;p

it's a status symbol, and I paid a lot for it

much more than the cost to produce it

Michael Frank

@allquixotic This reminds me of the story about how Walmart figured out someone was pregnant before she had told her own parents.

allquixotic

lol yeah I heard that one

@DragonLord well, sugar makes the world go round :) new, unique, novel things with lots of sugar in them have a tendency to move feet.

and once the feet are a'walkin' in your store, you're probably going to make lots of money selling wool coats

Michael Frank

21:59

@allquixotic Case in point: stuff.co.nz/life-style/food-wine/62742798/…

Local creamery creates a Chocolate milk using full cream milk and Whitaker's 5-times rolled milk chocolate.

There is currently lines at supermarkets every day waiting for these bottles to hit the shelf.

allquixotic

also consider that even the people who notice the high sticker price on those exclusive pop tarts might accept the price anyway, and it helps ease them into the mindset of paying a premium for "the real good stuff"

it's very easy to fall into that mindset, I find, when you enter a store and you look at a sticker, but you really want the item

if you know it's normally $3.50, and they're selling for $7, who cares? you're getting what you really wanted, so it's worth it. you pick up the item and endorphins are released into your brain because you got THE GOOD STUFF. and it was OK to pay a premium. you can afford it!

Michael Frank

"$5 for a Poptart? Must taste amazing! I better buy some..."

allquixotic

you form this habitual relationship between premium prices and quality in your mind, and you carry that with you through the rest of the store

DragonLord

That's why I brought up the notion of a Veblen good a while ago.

allquixotic

and the funny thing is, pop tarts are such a low cost item, even marked up, that, since your wallet doesn't really feel the pain, you don't associate premium with being bad; you associate it with being good

if the "lure" item was a $1000 item marked up for $1500, you'd have disastrous results

not everybody can put up a grand or so, let alone a huge markup on top of that

so the lure item has to be cheap

DragonLord

22:03

Well, you've taught me quite a bit about how the retail sector operates these days

It shows how cutthroat the market is these days

I'll be away for a while to do my work, so see y'all

allquixotic

we're really employing all the economic tricks we can spare just to keep corporations afloat, while consumer budgets exhibit less buying power than normal because of all the debt we have racked up

I think the gov't should start converting income tax refunds into mandatory loan credits; meaning, if you have ANY creditors whatsoever, you are required to pay off your creditors with your refund, rather than spending it on new stuff.

if you have no debt at all, only then would you get cash

by having people emerge from debt, slowly over the years, using their income tax refunds, they'd have more buying power since they're sinking less into interest on debts

with more buying power you'd see people spending their actual paycheck on things like electronics and luxury items

Canadian Luke

@allquixotic I just came in on your last couple posts... That makes a lot of sense!

DragonLord

@CanadianLuke Read back starting from here: chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/18459322#18459322

allquixotic

can't tell you how many times I've heard a coworker or friend say that they want to upgrade their computer or smartphone or buy their GF/fiance/wife a new ring, or get prescription sunglasses, or yada yada yada, and their reason for not having it? "because money" - OK, well, how much of your income is being sunk as interest on existing debt?

DragonLord

Once again, I've got work to do, so see you later

allquixotic

22:07

would be interesting to see how much demand would increase on goods overall if people could free up that debt

but the natural tendency when you get a big check (as in tax returns) is to spend it

which usually puts people even further into debt

Darth Android

@allquixotic Not inherently

Spending it just doesn't help people get out of debt

debt does depress buying power if you assume that every debt is paid off in full

allquixotic

true, but a lot of people will use the infusion of cash, plus what they're pulling in on a paycheck or what they have saved up, to buy something more significant

Darth Android

true, which results in more buying power

if you start paying down debt, your buying power goes down until you are actually out of debt

allquixotic

@DarthAndroid and then it goes up, as long as you stay out of debt

only the big banks benefit from us all being buried under a mountain of debt :/

even large enterprises that aren't inherently funded or bankrolled by the banks themselves, are being screwed by the big banks

so: individuals, small biz, medium biz, and non-bank-affiliated large biz, all get screwed

so that a tiny percentage of the people can rake it in

Darth Android

@allquixotic Loans/debts usually increase buying power - hence the housing bubble in the early '00s

It's not sustainable, no

allquixotic

22:13

@DarthAndroid but it's a temporary effect that's really, really unhealthy in the long term

Darth Android

but the banks end up footing the bill when people are forclosed upon

(don't get me wrong, I hate debt and I think it should be much, much harder to get yourself into debt, but I don't think the issue necessarily relates to buying power)

allquixotic

@DarthAndroid the relation is this: if (most) people carry around little debt, or with fantastic interest rates and no screwy terms & conditions, their sustainable buying power is good, and they'll contribute more overall to a healthy consumption economy. if (most) people carry around mountains of debt, or with predatory interest rates and/or screwy Ts&Cs, they may have instantaneous good buying power, but long term, it'll suck, and eventually they might even default, which sucks for everyone.

and no company I know of ever survived sustainably with a one-time huge infusion of cash from people taking out loans to buy their product, and then having their sales fall off a cliff

they need a continuous cash flow

Darth Android

true.

allquixotic

@MichaelFrank LOL @ that chocolate milk story

that's hilarious... can't believe people are so crazy about it

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