Root Access

Vader

00:15

when you quarantine a virus are you deleting it?

allquixotic

@Vader No

Vader

why does it get contained but not deleted?

allquixotic

a virus program "quarantining" a virus is simply placing the bytes of the virus file(s) into a location where they can't be executed by the operating system, thus protecting you from accidentally running it.

they could be put into a database or other container file that the OS wouldn't execute if you double-clicked it

Vader

but why doesn't it just erase them

allquixotic

@Vader quarantining is for things you aren't sure whether they are really malicious or not. what if you downloaded something, and it's a false positive, and it's sensitive data that you can't get again, or would take a lot of time or money to get it again?

many virus scanners default to quarantining instead of deleting because otherwise they could be liable for destroying your (valid) data

virus scanners identify potential viruses; they aren't sentient, so there will always be false positives

it is impossible to write a virus scanner that never has false positives, unless it never detects any virus ever

Vader

00:21

but I was not given the option to delete either

nvm

I am now

allquixotic

@Vader by what virus scanner?

Vader

after a restart

I am using norton and also just installed malwarebytes

I had some virus that was opening a webpage

this link

click at own risk

allquixotic

@Vader please don't even post anything like that here; we don't need to know where you got your virus

Vader

yeah I am fixing the link one sec

there's a screenshot

img host is imgur, no worries

@allquixotic it's not from here

this is just a page that got opened up every now and then

is there a way with software to determine if the PSU is putting out enough power?

allquixotic

@Vader if your system is able to execute software, then the PSU is putting out enough power.

Vader

00:30

but the demand for power varies

allquixotic

@Vader a PSU is designed to output voltages and currents within a specified range, within which any deviation is not damaging to the hardware; if the power being supplied deviates outside that range, the PSU will shut down

any PSU without those protections is not ATX compliant, and should immediately be returned or discarded

Bob

@allquixotic The number of times Norton has deleted things I need in the past says otherwise.

2

Perhaps you need a good qualifier in that statement :P

@allquixotic Eh, a lot of them tend to be a bit iffy near the max current draw. Especially if they're a bit old.

There's a (minor) chance that the voltage will sag on one rail just enough to cause issues but not a full shutdown.

Bob

00:56

...what the stars

allquixotic

@Bob ain't me

Braiam

funny thing is that you can star stuff from the transcription

Journeyman Geek

OH MY GOD ITS FULL OF STARS!

2

Michael Frank

03:17

@Bob is like the American flag now!

jackopen

03:57

@sammyg; i am sorry i was disconnected without any intimation to you & couldnt re-establish internet connection.

yeah that was a nice switchover from automation-->programming. I liked the talk.

Ok now i understand why my query was vague; there are many many such tools available. (found via lmgfy)

i am not sure why lmgfy site is helpful.

is it the same message when i say someone

kindly search google with keyword "XXX"

Do you find any software/apps which replaced hardwares recently? (since last 5 years)

b+w bpic is nice

Bob

04:41

...

I want to know how the heck I got redirected from a CSS resource to an Indian hotel booking site.

Journeyman Geek

05:04

o0

Michael Frank

05:17

I want to know what's going on with the guy that thanked someone for pointing them to LMGTFY! o.O

Journeyman Geek

lol

Bob

07:35

so quiet in here

Bob

08:51

yay

laptop repaired

that was fast

Michael Frank

@Bob What was wrong with it?

Bob

@MichaelFrank screen failed

Michael Frank

Replacement screen then?

Bob

@MichaelFrank ya

was under extended warranty

Michael Frank

09:14

ahh okay, we'll that's good!

user58869

10:06

What is the disk space required for a clean minimal install of os x mavericks? I'm planning to install on a vm using fusion

user58869

10:37

according to this it's 10gb

Oliver Salzburg

0

Q: What controls the Skype availability display in Outlook?

The other day, I installed Outlook 2013 at home and it started displaying avatars for my contacts and showing if they are online in Skype. I did not install any add-in or change any settings in either program to get that functionality. At work, I also use Skype and Outlook 2013, but I don't get ...

Does anyone know?

Journeyman Geek

12:04

new moto boot screen.

they seem to have changed the colour of the logo to red ;p

user58869

12:40

@JourneymanGeek what is moto?

Journeyman Geek

mototola ;p

►

user58869

oh... motorola phones

user58869

i used to have one of those a long time ago

user58869

i can't remember what i did with it, i think i lost it in the street

allquixotic

13:04

!! s/tot/tor/

ChatBot John Cavil

@allquixotic motorola ;p (source)

allquixotic

@Bob NOISE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Journeyman Geek

13:16

meh

I'm trying to decide between keeping money in paypal for the steam summer sale, or picking up a quadrocopter

BigHomie

@JourneymanGeek quad dude.

Journeyman Geek

@BigHomie: but... steam summer sale.

(at most, it puts off the quad by a month)

and its from dx, so shipping will likely be slow ;p

BigHomie

@JourneymanGeek two words. Quad . RPi . Camera .

Journeyman Geek

@BigHomie: naw, cameraless one

unless I pick up a camera and upgrade it myself

Looking at a hubsan x4

BigHomie

it doesn't come w/ an RPi either does it ;p

Journeyman Geek

13:21

or a clone of it

nope

BigHomie

make it smart @JourneymanGeek, make it smart.

►

Journeyman Geek

hm, if I add in a spares pack, it probably will end up using up all my paypal funds. And its probably a good idea to

@BigHomie: meh

►

allquixotic

@JourneymanGeek you're allowed to have drones there? are you sure people won't mistake it for an implement of the NSA?

(yes, the NSA does spy on dogs from Singapore)

Journeyman Geek

@allquixotic: model helicopters are tolerated ;p

and I have a decent place to fly it ;p

allquixotic

@JourneymanGeek custom remote controller that's ergonomically friendly for your paws?

Journeyman Geek

13:26

@allquixotic: I'll manage ;p

BigHomie

@JourneymanGeek doesn't float your boat?

Journeyman Geek

@BigHomie: lol. I definately don't have the funds ;p

actually, I'd probably have popped more money into paypal if I'd realised the steam summer sale was going to be on

BigHomie

same here, I thought if perhaps somebody was going to buy one I could persuade them into souping it up

Journeyman Geek

;p

While I run miracles off my budget, I'm not quite at the level of the fish and loaves ;p

I'm looking at one of these dx.com/p/… possibly with the addon kit so I can add the bumper

BigHomie

lol

Journeyman Geek

13:31

logically, I'll wait till the summer sale, top up paypal in july, depending on what I get, and then grab these

BigHomie

that actually looks pretty fun. I was thinking of building one myself out of hobby parts from those online stores, to give it a place to have the brain mounted

@JourneymanGeek This guy got his a mile high, don't know what model though

Journeyman Geek

MUCH bigger ;p

Thats pretty crazy

@BigHomie: you could probably do that

If you're going to be mounting that sort of gear dji.com/product/phantom is a more sensible option

significantly more expensive

BigHomie

oh yeah

Journeyman Geek

basically at some point, everything gets bigger ;p

(and then there's the estes nano www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LNDVYH )

►

allquixotic

@JourneymanGeek and then you start needing to have blinky lights on it, a flight plan, FAA approval, ...

Journeyman Geek

13:41

lol

@allquixotic: the x4 has blinky lights ;p

and alas, Dogs get dog licences and a chip in the back, not pilots licences ;p

there's someone local with a phantom, its cool

allquixotic

14:36

Guy1: "Hey man look at my new dog!"
Guy2: "Aww that's cool HEY THERE'S NO DOG THERE! RUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUH!"
Guy1: "RUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUHHHHHH!!!!!!!!"
Guy2: "RUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUHHHHHH!!!!!!!!"

Journeyman Geek

o0

whut?

allquixotic

youtube "look at my new dog" :P

Journeyman Geek

thats just strange

Canadian Luke

14:54

Linux gurus: need help finding out why iptables isn't blocking an address range

allquixotic

@CanadianLuke I guarantee you it's doing exactly what you tell it to ;-)

That Brazilian Guy

Yes, but what?

21 hours ago, by jackopen

something automatic

21 hours ago, by agweber

Automatic what?

allquixotic

@ThatBrazilianGuy wit :D

Journeyman Geek

lol

That Brazilian Guy

21 hours ago, by jackopen

automatic operation?

Journeyman Geek

15:01

@CanadianLuke: I'm no iptables expert but maybe you could post your iptables rules?

Canadian Luke

NO! NO MORE OF THAT GUY!

2

That Brazilian Guy

21 hours ago, by jackopen

automatic is something where people gets relax

Canadian Luke

I found the answer, as I'm typing up the question. Search on SE is weird...

2

That Brazilian Guy

!! s/is weird/is amazing/

ChatBot John Cavil

@ThatBrazilianGuy That didn't make much sense. Use the !!/help command to learn more.

allquixotic

15:02

!!undo

Journeyman Geek

@CanadianLuke: I find the search while typing out a question outperforms normal search

ChatBot John Cavil

@ThatBrazilianGuy I found the answer, as I'm typing up the question. Search on SE is amazing... (source)

That Brazilian Guy

@CanadianLuke I don't believe I missed that.

Canadian Luke

I know you didn't

That Brazilian Guy

Oops, I meant "I can't believe I missed that."

shutdown now halts the system, but shutdown -h now shuts it down. h is for halt. Linux is weird.

allquixotic

15:12

@ThatBrazilianGuy at least it fixes the unsolvability of the halting problem ;-)

wally.cs.iupui.edu/csci230/files/t16Haltingproblem.htm

HackToHell

Your brother ? :P

Canadian Luke

Ahhh the lovely (removed) message... The first source of good information :)

5

That Brazilian Guy

@allquixotic But if you want it to halt you tell it to shut down, and if you want it to shut down you tell it to halt.

Who programmed it? El Chavo del Ocho?

ChatBot John Cavil

HAMMERZEIT!

That Brazilian Guy

►

> La que parece de limon es de jamaica pero sabe a tamarindo, la que parece a jamaica es de tamarindo pero sabe a limon, la que parece tamarindo es de limon pero sabe a jamaica

allquixotic

15:21

@ThatBrazilianGuy the same person who makes you Log Out of Gnome3 before you can shut down

That Brazilian Guy

@CanadianLuke The only reason I want 10k rep is to be able read (removed) stuff.

Canadian Luke

I only got to cause I got the blue text :)

3

Journeyman Geek

lol

allquixotic

@CanadianLuke clearly your goal in becoming a moderator was not to "help the community"... typical politician

"I want to ~~help everyone~~ GET SPECIAL PRIVILEGES! YEEEAH BOOEY"

Journeyman Geek

;p

you can also do that as channel owner, no? ;p

Canadian Luke

15:29

@JourneymanGeek I believe so

allquixotic

@CanadianLuke we aren't asking about your religious beliefs, dude... I mean it's OK if you believe in channel owner deities or whatever, but no need to try and impress your beliefs onto all of us ;-)

"Separation of Church and SE" or something like that

except christianity.SE and islam.SE and such. whoops

Canadian Luke

The School of Exchange?

And isn't there a Judism one too?

allquixotic

!! s/di/dai/

ChatBot John Cavil

@allquixotic And isn't there a Judaism one too? (source)

Canadian Luke

I'm not religious anymore, I had no idea how to spell it

allquixotic

15:38

I can see it now: @CanadianLuke is going to found a church called "The Church of Channel Owners" (CoCO) and compete with Scientology

Can whomever-it-is please stop starring every single message by CanadianLuke? I'm going to cancel some stars here for ones I don't think are genuinely funny, and I hope the stars don't show back up again. Please reserve stars for particularly interesting or funny messages. "Polluting" the star wall with ordinary chat defeats its purpose. Thanks

Note: doing it more when explicitly asked to stop is going to get you suspended/banned from chat.

HackToHell

You can't find out who did it ! :P

allquixotic

moderators can.

HackToHell

Oh :/ You ruin funz

allquixotic

well, at least we know who it was now

I was just kidding that moderators can find out who did it

but now that you outed yourself...

jokerdino

Yes, mods can't find it. :D

@HackToHell holidays buddy?

allquixotic

15:46

social engineering can though

jokerdino

Hm, actually I can find a user's recent messages that he starred.

allquixotic

oh cool

so you can see who starred what

jokerdino

chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/info/118/root-access/…

Dec 11 '13 at 16:39, by Bob

Classic Bob.

allquixotic

classic German guy:

Oct 18 '13 at 15:19, by Oliver Salzburg

What kind of a pervert puts a space between the function name and the ()?

Braiam

@oliversalzburg pythonnesses ^

Canadian Luke

15:51

I just thought I was getting popular :P

allquixotic

@CanadianLuke well, you had one very special fan, but that's about it

Canadian Luke

Yea, but it didn't blow me <font size=-50>cool air`</font>`

allquixotic

-50?

what is that? anti-text?

to render anti-text, the screen has to create antiphotons that cancel out the light emitted....?

Canadian Luke

Pretty much!

Journeyman Geek

16:07

@allquixotic damn it. I wish we could ;p

HackToHell

16:34

@jokerdino yes finally

I was marooned off in my granny's place for the last three days

Came home just now :P

jokerdino

@HackToHell You know what I am going to say :D

HackToHell

I know that's why I explained ;p

Journeyman Geek

Were you feeling blue when you were marooned? ;p

Stack Exchange

17:01

0

Q: Why can't I select any stackExchange site for migration?

It's really bugging me. There's a question that I believe belongs on a stackExchange site which is not included in the list below: Who has created that list anyway? Why can't I see any Search field?

feature-request flagging

HackToHell

17:53

@JourneymanGeek kinda

jokerdino

18:14

@HackToHell Sooo, where do you wanna discuss our app?

DavGarcia

I need to hire an IT administrator for my small business in South Texas. Can anyone recommend a job board to post to? Where do IT people look for jobs nowadays? Monster? Indeed?

allquixotic

18:36

@DavGarcia careers.SE? :P

@DavGarcia there are people looking for jobs all over the place -- there are a metric ton of average to good people who are willing to do their job, and have the skills to do it, but the over-specialization of job requirements in corporate America (and things like degree bloat) mean they are unhireable

people will be looking in basically every conceivable corner of the internet for a job if they are desperate enough

and Texas attracts a lot of devs and IT folks because of the recent job glut there... and of course many of them move their lives there and then get laid off and have to find a job quickly or leave, so you'll likely get many bites

just be careful not to contribute to the problem of requirements bloat; please don't require advanced degrees beyond a bachelor's or special certifications for somebody who's just going to be taking care of a few office PCs and/or keeping your basic website running... just specify the minimum and determine your best candidate by way of interview

BigHomie

The Comms Room

ServerFault's lobby

2

@DavGarcia I'd be happy to assist you, as a professional sysadmin who also does IT Consulting.

If you want a wider pool of expertise, feel free to visit the room I linked to above.

That Brazilian Guy

19:58

Journeyman Geek

lol

That Brazilian Guy

"We lost connectivity, some wire must be broken. Fix it."

Journeyman Geek

some of those arn't patch cables

Michael Frank

@ThatBrazilianGuy What is this... I don't even!

Psycogeek

all that to make a wireless network :-)

That Brazilian Guy

20:00

@Psycogeek Huh?

Journeyman Geek

@ThatBrazilianGuy: That looks... outdoors

That Brazilian Guy

@JourneymanGeek Wow! I couldn't see it was outdoors because the outdoors are underwires.

Journeyman Geek

o0

the windows and the chair was a givaway

That Brazilian Guy

Windows? Chair? All I see is a small stair on the left, and then wires wires wires wires wires wires wires wires wires wires wires wires wires wires wires wires wires wires wires

(and something blue under it)

Journeyman Geek

20:16

i.imgur.com/oHBlpil.jpg?1

Simon Sheehan

Posted my first answer in over 2 years, woo!

2

Michael Frank

20:49

@JourneymanGeek It's on the back/side of a truck.

You can see an indicator light near the bottom on the right.

Journeyman Geek

so it is

Michael Frank

That also looks less like a chair, and more like stairs. :P

Journeyman Geek

looks like 2 folding chairs to me

Michael Frank

That's a step that connects the two side parts.

Journeyman Geek

21:06

ahh ;p

Simon Sheehan

Looks... intense

That Brazilian Guy

How they do that?

Psycogeek

21:22

Try to get you to eat a tracking cookie, check your stomach for its contents?

Journeyman Geek

ah hah!

Audio Video Bridging

Audio Video Bridging (AVB) is a common name for the set of technical standards developed by the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE) Audio Video Bridging Task Group of the IEEE 802.1 standards committee. This task group had been renamed to Time-Sensitive Networking Task Group at November 2012 to reflect the expanded scope of work. The charter of this organization is to "provide the specifications that will allow time-synchronized low latency streaming services through IEEE 802 networks". These consist of: * IEEE 802.1BA: Audio Video Bridging (AVB) Systems * IEEE 802.1...

@ThatBrazilianGuy: put a message about ads under ads?

sneakily put non ad stuff with ad-like filenames/psths?

Psycogeek

with javascript there is probably many ways to do it too. webgilde.com/en/simple-adblock-counter stackoverflow.com/questions/4869154/…

I was looking back as they were looking back seeing me watching them, while they were watching me seeing them.

allquixotic

21:39

@JourneymanGeek not even that. embed the ad into the content itself, so GET /whatever (whether it's an image, or the site text) includes the ad embedded in it

Psycogeek

21:49

It is usually just a matter of breaking the rest of everything they are doing, to get in without dealing with it.

Good luck trying to run the java tools there , without java enabled.

BigHomie

JAVA MUST DIE.

3

Bob

@BigHomie oh hi there :P

@Psycogeek uh... java != javascript

different things

BigHomie

@Bob Yep. I heard someone say Java.

Bob

lol

There, backup restore complete. Now let's hope it boots...

Psycogeek

@Bob yes i have heard you say that before? so how exactally does that work? does javascript run without jave?

Bob

21:59

@Psycogeek similar names for completely different languages

allquixotic

@Psycogeek In your mind, rename "JavaScript" to "ECMAScript".

ECMAScript is also a correct name for it, and it eliminates any false understandings of JavaScript being in any way related to Java.

BigHomie

@Psycogeek javascript is a scripting language interpreted by your favorite web browser.

@Psycogeek JAVA is a cross platform programming language that is run in a sandboxed environment that should be taken out back set on fire and shot.

Bob

yay, it boots successfully

no time like the present to try another 8.1 update

allquixotic

@BigHomie Java doesn't necessarily run in a sandboxed environment. In a fully trusted VM, it's actually perfectly fine. It's no different than .NET or C++ in that context. And the performance is quite good these days.

Bob

@BigHomie technically all languages are "cross platform" if you can find a compiler (or interpreter) to run them on it :P

allquixotic

22:01

The Java browser plugin idea is stupid, but running the JVM on your own computer with full trust on code you've voluntarily downloaded or written, is 100% fine, and much of the internet infrastructure is hosted on just that (Java EE / application servers)

BigHomie

@Bob indeed, but all sandboxes aren't java!

Psycogeek

@BigHomie so if i remove java, javascript will still be interpreted by a browser made in like 2006?

Bob

@allquixotic I just want to say, after fiddling a lot with Tomcat and EE servlets, that that's not a good thought

infinitely better than PHP though

BigHomie

@allquixotic then why can't any java program run after an update? and why can't it be cleanly uninstalled?

allquixotic

@Bob Our entire web presence is deployed on IBM WebSphere. Basically an enterprise-supported EE application server that runs on mainframes and/or UNIX and/or Linux. With enough knowledgable professionals sitting around to babysit it, it does scale extremely well.

BigHomie

22:03

@Psycogeek yes, or even a browser made in 2000 !

Canadian Luke

10k/mod only: superuser.com/a/641799/24010

That has got to be one of the best answers ever!

@BigHomie (in regards to the 'Java must die') youtube.com/watch?v=E3418SeWZfQ

allquixotic

@Bob Whenever you talk about a big website with a lot of complicated moving parts, it's always going to be a headache, and you're always going to need X number of trained professionals who know the ins and outs of the hosting environment to keep it running. True of PHP, true of Ruby on Rails, take your pick.

@BigHomie I haven't observed either of these symptoms you just mentioned, but keep in mind that most Java EE applications aren't hosted on Windows, so the traditional pitfalls of updating and installation (which are very heavily governed by the limitations of the Windows Installer system, NOT by Java itself) are not present.

Canadian Luke

BigHomie

@allquixotic You're a java programmer aren't you

allquixotic

typically if you're running a web presence off of Windows, you're coding it in C# and/or ASP.NET, not in Java.

Bob

22:08

> most

well, that might be our problem :P

allquixotic

@BigHomie Not as my primary job function, but I know Java, yes. But so what? Just because I'm familiar with the language doesn't mean I'm bias or anything. I have deep knowledge of many languages, environments and technologies. I recognize their strengths and weaknesses. And one of the things I've observed is that a lot of people irrationally hate on "Java" without understanding which parts of their hate are valid, and which are invalid.

BigHomie

@allquixotic I wasn't referring to the language, but the sandbox, and yes, the API design

allquixotic

As I said before, the applet and web start browser plugin is a bad idea, because it's so hard to implement securely (even after all the work they've done on it in the past year). Browser plugins are bad in general, but the Java one is particularly bad. But just because they wrote a bad browser plugin doesn't mean the entire language and runtime should be "take out back set on fire and shot".

Just because most people primarily think of the web browser plugin when you use the word "Java" doesn't mean that the rest of what Java really is, and what Java primarily is used for -- that is, server-side large-scale enterprise applications that have NOTHING to do with a browser plugin -- should be "taken out back set on fire and shot".

BigHomie

Sorry, not sold.

> server-side large-scale enterprise applications that have NOTHING to do with a browser plugin

why use java then?

Bob

@allquixotic Eh, I just can't find any love for software that tries to install malware-like toolbars.

BigHomie

22:12

There are plenty of other languages that will work just fine

allquixotic

@BigHomie You've never tried to write a large-scale web application before, have you?

Bob

> Update for Microsoft Office 2013

o.O

I... don't have 2013

allquixotic

Properly hosting a web application with dynamic logic, database interfaces, intrusion detection, thousands or hundreds of thousands of simultaneous users, eventual consistency, etc. etc. is hard work. Yes, there are runtimes out there that can do it, but there is a lot of justified hate for PHP due to its ongoing security and standardization issues, and Ruby on Rails is still too immature for some, since it's new and constantly evolving.

Java has been a stable rock for server-side hosting for about a decade. We have code written in 2003 that runs exactly the same on an entirely new platform (new CPU architecture, new operating system, new Java runtime) in 2014 as it did in 2003. Millions of SLOC.

These are projects that were started while Ruby was still a dream in Matz' head.

Bob

@allquixotic A lot of the hate for PHP is just how easy it is to shoot yourself in the foot.

allquixotic

Not to mention that there are thousands of enterprise production-quality libraries written in Java, which are extremely useful for exactly the kind of programs that are traditionally written in Java on the server-side: web language processing, dynamic content generation, PDF I/O, Word I/O, XML I/O, XSLT, SQL database interfaces, etc.

Bob

22:17

At the very least, one thing that can be said about Java is that at least some thought was put into the language design.

allquixotic

Many of those libraries reached version 1.0 "stable" before Ruby was even considered alpha-quality.

Bob

O_O

0

Q: Read registers on a NIC card on Windows

I have a Realtek Ethernet Controller on my x86 machine running Windows 7. I have the datasheet for the Ethernet controller. I am trying to debug a low-level issue and I need to read certain registers from the NIC. Is there a tool/utility on Windows that allows me to read the registers?

windows-7 ethernet network-adapter debug

allquixotic

@Bob Exactly. And it has a formally documented spec. And it has a formally documented Certification Kit with hundreds of thousands of runtime tests. And an active industry standards body that votes on measures to change the language.

Bob

@allquixotic And doesn't have an "Expected test failures" number? :P

gcov.php.net/viewer.php?version=PHP_5_6

BigHomie

@allquixotic All that is fine, really. However the difference between 2003 and 2014 is, well, 11 years. I'm not saying go out and migrate everything over to ruby, but how many java web apps are out there that don't require your dreaded browser plugin?

allquixotic

22:21

@BigHomie The key thing you seem not to understand is that server-side web applications coded in Java do not require the browser plugin.

BigHomie

I have nothing (major) against the language, really

Bob

@BigHomie Actually, the use of Java on the server side doesn't affect what you use on the client side.

As far as browsers are concerned, it's HTTP req out, HTTP resp back.

Or WebSockets.

BigHomie

@Bob yeah, we used to have a ticketing system coded in java

used to

allquixotic

Yeah, what Bob said is more accurate: whether or not you need Java (or the browser plugin) on the client-side is orthogonal (independent of) whether the server-side is written in Java.

Bob

@BigHomie some systems might do that, but there's no requirement to do so, and it's not really any easier to do so

as far as Java on the server is concerned, a client-side Java applet is just another bunch of binary bytes

allquixotic

22:23

theserverside.com --- I like that site as a resource for good technical articles on how to do neat stuff with server-side Java

BigHomie

@allquixotic I'm agreeing with you, I've nothing against the language, but why can't Java die?

Bob

@BigHomie Honestly, as much as I complain about certain aspects of Java, I'd much rather PHP die first.

allquixotic

@BigHomie I don't know, maybe because millions of working professionals have built their careers around domain-specific knowledge of Java, and continue to use that knowledge to this very day to host (what I'd estimate in my mind; unsubstantiated number) more than 10% of all websites on the Internet?

Bob

Or Progress/OpenEdge AGL (shudder)

BigHomie

@allquixotic people built careers around fortran and cobol as well, things change

Bob

22:25

@BigHomie ...and those two are very much alive

allquixotic

@BigHomie OK, but you don't change something just for change's sake. Before you change, you have to change to something that's provably better. For an enterprise, where stability, reliability, formality, corporate support, formal testing, etc. are all critically important to ensure business continuity and data integrity, you can't just go using the latest fad language and simply hope and pray that 99% of the time, request.SendResponse('whatever') will work as intended.

Bob

guess what's running on an 80s mainframe in the basement of many banks? :P

BigHomie

@Bob heh, very much huh

Psycogeek

@Bob the one least likely to be hacked ?

Bob

very relevant: computerworlduk.com/news/applications/3452537/…

allquixotic

22:28

@Bob Oddly enough, we're migrating more and more stuff from COBOL to Java. We aren't hitting many performance issues, once we figured out how to tell our JVM to purge and garbage collect dead (logged-out) application sessions.

By default they were sitting around for 2 hours after the person logged out. :/

BigHomie

@allquixotic I knew it, only those who work with Java have compassion for it. Pardon my cynicism, but I'm a sysadmin who has to support users who use Java apps

allquixotic

@BigHomie Pardon me?

Bob

@allquixotic Ouch.

allquixotic

@Bob Just gotta keep that heap VM under control. Even on serious iron, the bits add up. :P

Bob

Heh, we had some Tomcat servers lock up a few months ago with > 600 threads (limit) and many times normal memory usage. Turned out someone set what's supposed to be a 30-sec timeout for DB queries to 15 mins, and a bunch of long-running queries would get stuck.

allquixotic

22:30

@BigHomie "Users you use Java apps" -- so, desktop, right? Yeah, totally different world. You're welcome to be cynical, but I'm sorry to be blunt, if you have no actual experience dealing with server-side Java administration, you frankly have no clue what you're talking about.

BigHomie

You make it seem @allquixotic that server-side Java is the end all be all

allquixotic

I'll say this one last time: desktop Java and server-side Java are like night and day. I might even start giving them different names. I'll call server-side Java... hmm.... Quixotia. That sounds nice.

Bob

@BigHomie Well, it is a rather different beast.

Not saying it's necessarily better or worse.

And the client and server programmers have different goals, too.

allquixotic

@BigHomie Actually, if I had my choice of server-side runtimes, in this day and age, I'd probably be looking at things like NodeJS with a NoSQL database like MongoDB. If I thought Java was the end-all be-all, I wouldn't be saying that.

BigHomie

@allquixotic we started out talking about the desktop app though, you said it yourself.

and I made it plain I had nothing against the language itself

allquixotic

22:34

@BigHomie OK. I'll sum it up like this: the various uses of Java cover a spectrum from Foolish --> Acceptable --> Good. Foolish == running in the browser plugin. Acceptable == running it on the desktop (a la a .bat script that runs java -jar whatever.jar). Good = running it on a dedicated server to host a web application.

"Good" means good, not the best. Even on the server, I'd still rather use some of the other new technologies emerging if I had a choice and could start fresh on a big project today. I'd of course want to test the crap out of it to make 100% sure it's stable, which would take extra time that I don't really have to invest to make sure the core Java runtime is stable (on the server, it really is), but I'd still try and use NodeJS or even Ruby on Rails if I were willing to do the testing.

BigHomie

@allquixotic SPSS is a desktop app that does a good job running on top of Java, absolutely.

allquixotic

But when you have an environment running on a server that's good, and was considered to be the best 10 years ago (even if it no longer is), and you have a ton of in-house code that depends on it, and a lot of professionals who are experts in it, there's really no reason to drop everything and move to a new runtime/environment.

I think my organization's choice to remain with Java for the time being is therefore justified. The runtime would have to be downright awful to really justify a move when there's so much momentum pushing us towards progress with Java.

We're moving off of traditional mainframe stuff like COBOL and VSAM because, for instance, records in VSAM can only be something like 512 characters long. More than that, and you have to split your data into multiple records, and keep track of the multiple records yourself in your code, etc. It's ugly.

At this point in our enterprise lifecycle, something like VSAM (a very, very old "database", if you can call it that) is downright awful. A move is justified.

BigHomie

@allquixotic heh, cobol isn't as prevalent as it used to be (lookin at you, @BOB)

allquixotic

Who knows. Maybe in 20 years we'll hit another scalability ceiling that's a problem with the core Java runtime and not easily solvable. Maybe that'll be the straw that breaks the camel's back and forces us to move to some newer framework or paradigm.

BigHomie

for those reasons. I surmise it's 'secure' for the same reason Macs 'don't get viruses' : the market share isn't big enough

allquixotic

22:41

@BigHomie Testing and change control plays a big role, too. Before any software can be loaded onto one of our production servers, before a single line of code can be changed, people with guns have to get keys out of a locked safe and unlock the server console, then monitor the entire session and make sure the admin is following the change plan.

Bob

@BigHomie as it used to be, but there's no big rush to move off it either

allquixotic

If you had a change control board for your desktop PC, and couldn't "simply" download some .exe from the internet and run it, you'd be pretty secure, too.

Bob

I actually know a couple of COBOL programmers

and it's still very much in use at the local financial institutions

allquixotic

Web servers for big companies are a fairly large target for hacks regardless of what environment they're running on. The amount of internal testing and change control we go through -- bureaucratic "hoops" that actually have a justifiable purpose -- gives us a much greater confidence that things will work and be secure.

Penetration test

A penetration test, or the short form pentest, is an attack on a computer system with the intention of finding security weaknesses, potentially gaining access to it, its functionality and data The process involves identifying the target systems and the goal, then reviewing the information available and undertaking available means to attain the goal. A penetration test target may be a white box (where all background and system information is provided) or black box (where only basic or no information is provided except the company name). A penetration test will advise if a system is vulner...

We hire guys who could write that wikipedia article. With no references.

Psycogeek

@allquixotic and they come in and put in the backdoors? :-)

2

allquixotic

22:46

@Psycogeek I love your sense of humor. Really, I do. You make me laugh.

Oliver Salzburg

The other day I told a girl that I'm almost 40k on SU and she wasn't impressed at all. It's almost like this isn't worth it!

9

I must be hanging out in the wrong clubs

KronoS

YOUTUBE VIDS ARE EMBEDDED NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mind Blown!

allquixotic

@KronoS embedded where?

KronoS

12

Q: Why was Nimoy in the new Star Trek movie and Shatner not?

The story line of Star Trek (2009) explains that Spock was sent back trying to help Romulus but failed so he was forced to watch Vulcan get destroyed. But, out-of-universe, why was Shatner not asked to appear in the movie?

star-trek

oh I guess it's SciFi only

or at least SU didn't get the option

allquixotic

@OliverSalzburg the only place you're going to get a "oooooh, nice! ^__^" from that out of a girl is here

Oliver Salzburg

22:59

@allquixotic You tease!

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