Root Access

Michael Frank

00:04

stuff.co.nz/world/americas/9953630/…

Ummm....what?

Canadian Luke

00:16

Cool

Bob

01:24

@MichaelFrank Americans.

Michael Frank

@Bob I think the last sentence is really the pivotal point. They should sit him in front of the parole board BEFORE he goes into prison.

Bob

@MichaelFrank They SHOULD BE focusing on rehabilitation, not punishment.

But the USA just seems to love their punishment.

For-profit prisons?? Just plain bullshit.

How can anyone sane think that's a good idea?

Private prison

A private prison or for-profit prison, jail, or detention center is a place in which individuals are physically confined or interned by a third party that is contracted by a government agency. Private prison companies typically enter into contractual agreements with governments that commit prisoners and then pay a per diem or monthly rate for each prisoner confined in the facility. Today, the privatization of prisons refers both to the takeover of existing public facilities by private operators and to the building and operation of new and additional prisons by for-profit prison compani...

Michael Frank

@Bob Sounds like something that the Adjustment Bureau would be called in for.

"Oops... It seems the last 13 years of your life shouldn't have happened."

Bob

It was an armed robbery.

I'm not saying the original prison sentence was necessarily wrong.

But now? What's the point?

Michael Frank

@Bob Oh yea, definitely not.

I'm guessing the state will argue "He got away with it!"

allquixotic

01:36

@Bob obviously, their job isn't done until every man, woman and child in the United States (and everyone who dares interact with us on any other means, whether digitally or as visitors) are imprisoned... for the profit

except for the top ~20000 people, of course.

Michael Frank

@CanadianLuke Your website is still not working. :(

Bob

@allquixotic The last thing anyone should want is to attach an incentive to extended imprisonment :\

Same argument against capital punishment & organ donors, really.

Then again, it's not alike most people with any actual say in those decisions would find themselves on the wrong end of it.

allquixotic

> :(

ah, the mark of a dissatisfied customer. ;)

Michael Frank

@allquixotic Indeed!

Bob

01:53

The more I use Java, the more I hate it.

Canadian Luke

02:12

@Michael it works for me from my cell across town... When you do an nslookup, what address do you see

Nevermind I see it is down when I refresh... God Damn

allquixotic

@Bob I'm in exactly the same boat lately!!!

Bob

hehe

allquixotic

using Java on projects I can't exactly describe in detail, after using C# almost exclusively for like a year

where are my fucking extension methods goddamnit

and why do i have to hold shift to type "String"

Bob

@allquixotic And properties.

allquixotic

and why doesn't the int class have any methods

Bob

02:19

And var. And IntelliSense.

allquixotic

and properties!

and var!

fuck intellisense though :P

(I use #dev)

Bob

And WTF ARE CHECKED EXCEPTIONS AND WHY DO THEY EVEN EXIST

@allquixotic That one still has some semblence of it :P

Autocomplete in NB and Eclipse after years of using VS and #D is painful.

allquixotic

I almost read "D#" and was like... wut? the D language on the .NET runtime? O_O

@Bob I prefer checked exceptions over hoping and praying that the documentation declares what exceptions will be thrown, or converts error conditions into a boolean return flag or returns null on error... but I miss catch { /*stfu*/ }

Bob

hehe

Oh, what a pity, can't you understand . . .

@allquixotic But it's a pain when you've already explicitly guarded against the exception.

Where you don't want to declare the exception, because it should not be passed up... but if you made a mistake, you don't want to silence the exception either.

I've just taken to catch (CheckedException ex) { throw new IllegalStateException(ex); }

(also annoying that you apparently have to declare a var name in catch)

allquixotic

for me, if I'm dealing with a checked exception inside the view layer, I catch the exception and do some GUI-related error handling to the user (because 99% of the time a checked exception is the user's fault or the internet's fault)

if I'm dealing with a checked exception inside a utility class or the data model or the backend, I just throw it in the method signature

Bob

02:27

@allquixotic But what if you never expect it to be passed up?

Say it's a FileNotFoundException, and you've already explicitly checked file existence before the call.

allquixotic

@Bob if it's impossible for the exception to ever be thrown, then the method that has the throws in its signature that you are calling shouldn't even have that in its signature, and is designed incorrectly

Bob

The exception is in "should never happen" territory - if it happens, you want to abort because something is terribly wrong

allquixotic

if it's possible for it to be thrown, and you handle it by catching it, then you don't have to throw it up the stack; you can swallow it (after handling it appropriately)

@Bob checking file existence before doing a file-related operation is a race condition, so that checked exception is always a distinct possibility

Bob

@allquixotic True - bad example.

My current situation only deals with internal program state in a single-threaded program, though.

There is no way, short of memory corruption or programmer error, that the exception will ever be thrown from this particular call.

allquixotic

well, if you are sure that the exception will never happen, either swallow it (bad practice), or throw something that inherits from RuntimeException (unchecked exception base class)

Bob

02:29

But if that method is called elsewhere without the explicit safeguards, then the exception is possible and expected.

@allquixotic I ended up doing the latter.

allquixotic

hopefully the RuntimeException would be thrown during testing and not during actual production, because a RuntimeException coming up during production is generally bad news

I usually do throw new RuntimeException("Code-up error"); with that literal string as the reason :P

Bob

@allquixotic During production, you should have a global catch and log anyway.

allquixotic

@Bob true, but a RuntimeException should only be thrown when you're actually willing to cause the production system (whatever it is) to crash rather than continue operating in an undefined/broken state

Bob

But it's also wrong to declare the checked exception, because now the calling method has to explicitly handle or propagate another exception - it gets unwieldy fast.

@allquixotic Catch, log and exit*

allquixotic

@Bob well yeah, that's what I meant

Bob

02:33

Pretty much, in this case, the exception being thrown means something unexpected is broken.

allquixotic

@Bob it's not wrong to declare the checked exception if the program can continue to operate in a sane manner after getting the original exception; you would do that if your code isn't close enough to the view layer to put up a message box or whatever

Bob

And when something unexpected is broken, better get out fast rather than risk (further) data corruption.

allquixotic

I have some internal utility classes as part of the model that do XML parsing and stuff; if I get a ParseException, I throw it in the method, and eventually I have to catch (and handle) that at the view layer... sure beats passing an instance of the view to the utility class, that's for sure (that would be a huge layering violation)

Bob

Say you have some general utility method, that throws an exception when the input is invalid.

Some guidelines say that if your input is normally valid, then you use the exceptions. But when your input is normally invalid, then it's better to explicitly check it and skip the method call entirely - because in that case, invalid input isn't really an exception.

There's also performance reasons to do that, but performance and good design aren't really related anyway.

Anyway, in that example - that really should be a checked exception, except, in the normally invalid case, the exception should never be thrown. If it is, then something is broken.

That's the kind of case where an unchecked exception is more useful - seems the only way to deal with that is to wrap it in one.

Ends up cluttering code. Pretty much just an annoyance.

allquixotic

it does force you to think about proper error handling, though :P

you can cruise through a huge C# code-up while flagrantly ignoring all error conditions and not even checking the return value of methods that report true/false success, etc

and if something goes wrong, well, an exception you could have handled gets tossed all the way up through Main() and your program dies

that's what checked exceptions try to avoid

on the other hand, you should never write code (or depend on poorly designed libraries) where checked exceptions are being thrown in situations where you'd want to fatally terminate the program anyway

Bob

02:43

@allquixotic Eh, attempting to force developers to be safer with language constructs... bleh.

allquixotic

if it's an insane//undefined behavior situation, a checked exception should never be generated; it should be unchecked

Bob

A fool will always find another way.

allquixotic

@Bob what it prevents is developers who know what they're doing from accidentally leaving out proper error handling

Bob

@allquixotic It's well-defined within the method that throws the exception.

allquixotic

it doesn't prevent stupid, dangerous developers from blatantly swallowing and ignoring errors with an empty catch

Bob

02:44

But if you explicitly guard against the exception conditions in the calling method, and the exception still gets thrown, then something is wrong.

allquixotic

true, as long as your guard accounts for every possible scenario except "someone modified the memory of the process" or "a cosmic ray hit my non-ECC RAM and flipped a bit" or something like that

Bob

And, in that case, the callee isn't wrong. The caller might be, but it has to handle the exception somehow whether it's wrong or not.

@allquixotic A programmer mistake is possible, in which case an unchecked exception would have been appropriate.

allquixotic

it does add bloat, but I think it ends up slightly enhancing the quality of error handling in Java code compared to other languages...

Bob

To an extent.

allquixotic

another programming language that is annoying to the point of forcing you to think about these things is Ada, and it has been used a lot in defense applications by the military

Bob

02:46

But then you have things like ArrayList throwing IndexOutOfBoundsException, which is a RuntimeException.

allquixotic

Ada is basically this: going as far as software possibly can to prevent programmers from writing bad code, while being as annoying as conceivably possible

Bob

Should that have been checked or unchecked? Depends, really.

allquixotic

bad for productivity and verbosity concerns (and efficiency), but good for reliability

Bob

@allquixotic Still can't prevent logic errors.

=> Ariane 5

allquixotic

@Bob it does prevent Heartbleed type errors though, unless you're interfacing with foreign functions (like C/C++) which contain a vulnerability

Bob

02:49

@allquixotic Any language with automatic memory management and bounds checking would have prevented the vulnerability.

Ada goes beyond that, yes.

Still...

Sure, you have to declare integer ranges. but any OOP-supporting language should be able to do that, too - you'd just have an actual object, rather than an integer with a range.

It's a more generalised approach.

allquixotic

I love C# for writing "internal customer" productivity stuff, like Word add-ins and security testing tools, where a crash merely results in a whiny email being sent to me, and the consequences are so minor that I don't even get fired from my job or cost the company any real money or anything like that... just a whiny email, fix problem, push new build, go about my day

Bob

@allquixotic Great. Meanwhile, I get to fiddle with customer-facing stuff with JS -_______-

allquixotic

if I were writing life-critical or very high value systems though I'd at least want Java, if not Ada, for the incremental safety they provide

Bob

Did I mention IE7, IE8, Chrome and Firefox?

Oh, and IE11 broke a bunch of crap, too.

Depending on external programs that constantly update to cooperate => not fun.

allquixotic

assuming baseline competent but not 100% infalliable programmers, over many thousands of lines of code, the incremental safety advantages of Java or Ada add up and make problems less likely -- not impossible, cf. Ariane 5, but less likely

I sure as hell wouldn't want to use C... not anymore... used to love it, but realized just how bad of a programmerI am

I freely admit I am not a good enough programmer to write C that has even a chance of being vulnerability-free, performant, and free of things like memory leaks and null pointer derefs

beyond hello world, that is :P

Bob

02:54

@allquixotic You'd be surprised :P

I wrote a Hello World that Norton decided was a trojan...

allquixotic

o_O

UPX?

Bob

@allquixotic No, Code::Blocks with gcc.

allquixotic

btw @Bob, if SE ever cans chat, HipChat is awesome... it gets non-free after 5 users in a group, but that's enough for a small core group of us to chat... and it's incredibly featureful :D

Bob

@allquixotic Markdown?

Also, the name needs to be changed :P

allquixotic

web app, desktop app. super powerful. Ctrl+V paste screenshots. code block formatting.

no markdown :(

no limit on pasties of text (just like here) :D

Bob

02:57

@allquixotic I wonder how hard it would be to implement a chat with basic MD support. Probably not particularly.

Making it look pretty and be smooth, on the other hand...

Well, it would be easier without needing to support rooms or SE auth, or mods.

allquixotic

you mean we don't actually need mods? be careful with such heresy; you might login tomorrow to find yourself suspended (or worse)

there have been men mutilated, beaten and destroyed by the World Eater for lesser offenses

the mods keep us safe from the chaos of the big, scary world

their paternalism is needed; they are like our security blanket

revere them; respect them; worship them. ♦

I won't be caught associating with a heretic..... *looks the other way*

@Bob ^ :D

@Ethan "ucontrols"?

Bob

@allquixotic o.O

allquixotic

you're... what?

@Ethan fortunately, I opened it in an incognito window. didn't recognize the domain. but how the fuck are you using "Google's certificate"? I saw the EV verification. they fixed heartbleed ages ago.

Michael Frank

@allquixotic I missed it, what happened? :/

allquixotic

it's..... the cert is for *.googleusercontent.com

not for googledrive.com

Bob

03:11

@allquixotic See the SANs.

Not Critical
DNS Name: *.googleusercontent.com
DNS Name: *.blogspot.com
DNS Name: *.bp.blogspot.com
DNS Name: *.commondatastorage.googleapis.com
DNS Name: *.doubleclickusercontent.com
DNS Name: *.ggpht.com
DNS Name: *.googledrive.com
DNS Name: *.googlesyndication.com
DNS Name: *.storage.googleapis.com
DNS Name: blogspot.com
DNS Name: bp.blogspot.com
DNS Name: commondatastorage.googleapis.com
DNS Name: doubleclickusercontent.com
DNS Name: ggpht.com
DNS Name: googledrive.com
DNS Name: googleusercontent.com

allquixotic

!!meme okay

ChatBot John Cavil

Bob

SubjectAltName

subjectAltName is an extension to X.509 that allows various values to be associated with a security certificate. These values are called "Subject Alternative Names", or SANs. Names include: * e-mail addresses * IP addresses * URIs * DNS names (alternatives to the Common Name) * directory names (alternatives to the Distinguished Name) * other objects, given as a [http://www.oid-info.com/#oid-repository registered] Object identifier followed by a value See also * Wildcard certificate References

Ethan

lol

Bob

@allquixotic StartSSL actually uses a SAN to get both www.example.com and example.com for their free (no wildcard) certs.

allquixotic

03:13

@Ethan question, though. for that google sign-in page, is that a page you designed to mimic the google login page, or is that the actual google login page?

Bob

@allquixotic Pretty sure that's actually Google's site.

Oh wait, you mean the specific drive page?

allquixotic

@Ethan but when you submit the form, does the info go to you, or to google?

Bob

Yeaaaa... now would be a great time to report it to Google.

allquixotic

@Bob looking at this, I'm actually seeing a gaping security vulnerability O___O

^^ what Ethan just said

Bob

@allquixotic Ya.

allquixotic

03:15

he could have the form post to his own server

Bob

  <form novalidate="" method="post" action="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-kJtlELgiw8g/U09C1a8HjfI/AAAAAAAAAA8/9cN0rcELqWk/w958-h730-no/rickroll-still.jpg">

allquixotic

and the EV cert is there

Bob

Also, arbitrary JS.

allquixotic

so... yeah... using Google's EV cert for "trust us! really!" and then steal someone's info

dafuque.

Ethan

lol

Bob

03:16

@Ethan google.com/appserve/security-bugs/…

yea

better do that, like, ASAP

allquixotic

do it before I do it and claim your $15,000

just kidding, you found it, I'm not reporting it. get your money though you bastard

Bob

Hmm. google.com.au/about/appsecurity/reward-program

Psycogeek

Bob

> Cross-site scripting vulnerabilities in “sandbox” domains. We maintain a number of domains that leverage the same-origin policy to safely isolate certain types of untrusted content; the most prominent example of this is "*.googleusercontent.com". Unless an impact on sensitive user data can be demonstrated, we do not consider the ability to execute JavaScript in that domain to be a bug.

heh.

Psycogeek

Anybody know geometry math?

Bob

03:17

> Execution of owner-supplied JavaScript in Blogger. Blogs hosted in "*.blogspot.com" are no different from any third-party website on the Internet. For your safety, we employ spam and malware detection tools, but we do not consider the ability to embed JavaScript within your blog to be a security bug.

Ethan

^ lol

Bob

This is a bit borderline.

Ethan

yeah

Bob

They might try to deny you a reward :P

Ethan

@Psycogeek what do you need?

Bob

03:18

@Psycogeek 15/sin(45deg)

Ethan

the angle adjacent to to the 16 inch side is 45 degrees

its an isosceles triangle

Psycogeek

@Ethan the length that the red stick would be when cut to fit 16 inches when it is at a 45* angle

Bob

Wait. @Psycogeek Can we assume that the vertical length is the same?

Ethan

which means $$a^2+a^2=16^2$$

Bob

Otherwise, what's that gap on the top left?

Hm. That doesn't matter anyway.

Ethan

03:19

$$\sqrt{\frac{16^2}}{2}}$$

Psycogeek

@Bob yes all that stuff was supposed to be straight :-)

Bob

@Psycogeek google.com.au/…

Michael Frank

@Bob I'm more interested in why there's a little purple bit on the end of the yellow line.

allquixotic

@Bob I'm pretty sure he could get at least $500 for that vuln

Psycogeek

Cool beans, thanks. that is about what i figured (hands on)

I am making a grape vine trellis , out of bamboo.

allquixotic

03:23

@Bob have you written foreach in Java yet? I have. lol.

Bob

@allquixotic Ya. for (Foo f : wtfIsThisSyntax)

C++ apparently uses the same syntax.

@Ethan Reporting it yet? :P

gogogo

remember this chat is Google-indexed pretty quickly

@Ethan O_O

allquixotic

WHAT?

.........you're worried about English homework

you found a vulnerability in a core Google product

Bob

@allquixotic Priorities! :P

allquixotic

if you haven't told me that you've reported it by tomorrow morning (US time), I'm reporting it myself, and if they pay me, I'm taking the money. I'm not kidding. this is a real problem.

get your money, kid. you earned it. don't let this sit.

Bob

@allquixotic Wait, that cert isn't coming up as EV for me?

allquixotic

03:30

@Bob Chrome says it's identity-verified and the lock is green

oh. wait. TRWTF is Chrome

maybe google already found it and took it offline O_O

some kind of automated scanner?

wow.....

I don't even...

Ethan

can someone purge these chat logs

allquixotic

chat logs can only be "purged" by a mod. 10k users can still read them

Ethan

most mods on here dont like me

i cant read the stuff, can you get a mod to purge the ones that have links in them

allquixotic

you know what I think?

I think you're going to get hired by the NSA or Google or RSA, and make six figs by the age when I was a sophomore in college.

Bob

Never mind.

@allquixotic What age was that, if you don't mind sharing?

Ethan

03:37

support.google.com/mail/answer/43692?hl=en

allquixotic

@Bob idk, 20? something?

Bob

> Leaving multiple instances of Gmail open.

O_O

allquixotic

@Ethan hmm. not sure if it's related to that

@Bob lol......

is it possible their system detected a "login-esque page" and suspended the user who hosted it?

Michael Frank

@allquixotic B7FORPHISHING

Bob

@allquixotic Possibly.

I don't have the page source open anymore, but there was a fair bit of JS there.

Possibly a tracking code or something got submitted from an unknown URL.

@Ethan You really need to get into contact with the security team.

Probably include a note at the end saying your account was locked, they might be able to help...

allquixotic

03:41

web crawlers already can't pick them up

Bob

@Ethan All 10kers can.

allquixotic

web crawlers don't have 10k rep

Ethan

oh yeah

lol not thinking

Canadian Luke

I see everything! Insert creepy music here

Bob

@jokerdino seems to know how to actually purge messages, though

Ethan

03:41

can someone flag the hyper linked ones

allquixotic

maybe they're already aware of this potential attack vector and they have some kind of automated scanner for it, (or JS like Bob said), and ban people who try to pull it off?

Bob

@allquixotic Too fuzzy.

Too easy to bypass - there has to be a token somewhere.

And too easy to false positive.

More likely a specific token somewhere, rather than trying to detect the page.

allquixotic

@Bob couldn't you just audit the whole code stack then, find the culprit (JS beautifier helps), and remove it?

Bob

@allquixotic Probably.

But there's so many ways to produce a page that looks similar but with completely different code.

I'd guess it's to prevent the easy copies. But the vuln is still there (user-hosted HTML with a Google cert)

Also, I'm disappointed that they don't seem to use EV, even on accounts.google.com

allquixotic

is "user-hosted HTML with a Google cert" all that unusual? I'm just thinking aloud

@Bob ~~cost~~ they run their own CA.... so uh...

Bob

03:48

@allquixotic Not really - blogspot seems to do the same.

But here's user-created HTML with a Google cert and a domain with Google in the name, that looks like (and is) a legitimate Google domain.

allquixotic

yeah, it certainly trips my "whoa" filter

Bob

And where the login page wouldn't nbe out of place.

allquixotic

(as a security professional)

Bob

@allquixotic Their CA is probably not an EV CA.

EV CAs are... hard... to become.

allquixotic

it's also "hard" to become a regular CA :P

Bob

03:50

Point.

allquixotic

"where did all my open programs go?!?!?!"
"oh. I'm RDP'ed"

that's how fast my RDP is

Bob

:(

allquixotic

:)

I miss Tuple too

and I miss List<T> being a concrete class

I need the opposite of IKVM. lol.

C# on the JVM

actually, pure .NET code (no P/Invoke, no unsafe code, etc) could quite plausibly be useful/nice to be ported over to run on a JVM, because there are so many platforms that support a JVM but no Mono or .NET

(I'm thinking of mainframes here :P)

Bob

04:08

@allquixotic IList => List, List => ArrayList :\

I don't particularly like how Java generics work.

allquixotic

@Bob I know. :)

Canadian Luke

@MichaelFrank Site up! Temporarily... Thinking hard about moving it to a dedicated host

Michael Frank

@CanadianLuke Getting Cloudflare 404's. Is that you or me? :P

Canadian Luke

Grrr! WAS JUST WORKING

Bob

o.O

Canadian Luke

04:21

I'm tempted to just stop using CF

Bob

codinghorror is down?

Canadian Luke

Working for me

Bob

-_-

so it is (now)

Canadian Luke

I'm going to talk to a friend who does hosting himself, see if I can get better performance

Like, it works if I change my HOSTS file on my local machine... And it worked from work today...

My control panel works... But not the content

Had to reinstall the themes from scratch, and they look like shit now

OK, Wordpress is pissing me off now

OK, doing a manual reinstall of the entire blog... Hating it!

OK guys, blog back up! I'll start posting again tomorrow, probably to document this tragedy that landed me in the imaginary psych ward

rAsHmI

04:54

who are super users?

Canadian Luke

@rAsHmI We all is!

Bob

...

@allquixotic I think what I miss most with Java is operator overloading.

allquixotic

05:09

@Bob I never use that in the real world

Bob

@allquixotic What? You never use == for strings?

Canadian Luke

Can someone just confirm that yes, my site IS working, before I go and apply CloudFlare's DNS to it again?

allquixotic

@Bob I never implement my own operator overloading. of course I use == for strings

you'd think Java could at least go half-way house with operator overloading and allow builtin types which are final and immutable to have a custom == implementation... even if they aren't prepared to allow developers to write their own overloading... it would probably require revision of the bytecode spec to allow method names containing special characters

they could do some kind of syntactic sugar (like they did with generics :P) to make the compiler special-case certain == operations... maybe Dates and Strings are a good start

that would mess up some existing stuff that does reference equality with Strings or Dates though... which sucks... I can't believe people mess with that, but some do

the damn runtime shouldn't even provide syntax for distinguishing between instances of immutable types that are data-equal... heck they could even do copy-on-write for mutable types like Qt...

Canadian Luke

Can someone check talk-about-it.ca and let me know if it loads OK?

Psycogeek

05:26

@CanadianLuke works, headers are big

Canadian Luke

Screenshot?

Psycogeek

Canadian Luke

Yea, normal.. For now

OK, just flipped the switch... Can you try again in about 15minutes? Thanks alot

Psycogeek

i like the way the "title" jumps out, so scrolling quick, just a bit to big, like Fit on line?

Canadian Luke

I just want to make sure I can make changes without breaking it

Style will come later, I promise

Psycogeek

05:36

one thing that makes it look "easy" or "nicer" is it isnt cluttered with frame trash. Speaking of which :-) the table of contents in a frame , along with random pick of the day

Web pages are like city planning. When there was only 4 people in the city , they didnt plan shit :-)

Now that there are 50,000 people in the same city the "cow trails" (turned to roads) are all over the place, messed up off center, bad fung chwey , out of symetry.

Yahoo , is pretty popular, but to me (and compared to the simplicity of googles front page) it is a bloody nightmare of trash everywhere. Mabey not a garbage dump, more like a recycle center yahoo.com.

So they say "well just sign up and you can edit it however you like". I say if they started with something clean neet and easy, then let the users make it like a garbage dump.

Psycogeek

05:56

It is too late for yahoo, if they move something now , it will be the end of the world. Subject: Dear Yahoo why did you remove the horrorscope?
THis is to inform you that I will never visit your yahoo web page again, if you do not put back the horrorscope. Well i might a little, but only if i cant get rid of the yahoo toolbar, and only when passing though to play yahoo games. I am serious, you will lose a Huge user base (of at least 3 people) if you remove that from your page now.

Psycogeek

06:30

from italianways.com/the-ferrari-modulo-a-rare-dream . They have had these "concept cars" the car of the future now for like 40+ years, but most of the cars on the road are still some of the same designs from the 80s, just modded up a bit to look either werid or just wrong.

Michael Frank

@allquixotic I just died of fatigue in Hearthstone! D:

Psycogeek

They keep showing the "concept" cars at the car shows and all, but why they never manufacture 10,000 of them or so. In the Us here lost still is pure aerodynamics, Rail tires (less friction) Better views out the windows (lika a pacer) and other unique design ideas that have some practical value. But not made?

Never a concept car :-) but yet they are actually making these .

Looks about as areodynamic as a mack truck, the oversized wheel (not tire) is impractically fragile in pothole and curb territory, the but end is not any more actually aerodynamic they just hacked off the tail to (what) save money?

Ash

07:00

anybody tried atom editor ?

unfortunately its for mac only (for now).

and if anybody is interested I have 3 invites remaining.

sammyg

07:52

Is this Windows 8.1.1?

Version 6.3 build 9600.

Does Update 1 in fact change the build number?...

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