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14:03
not sure where you read that AC adapters cost 40 euro... that's 36 USD
40 euro in USD is $54.89, which is way more than what that adapter costs
@allquixotic This one is 35€ on amazon.de
amazon.de/AVM-FRITZ-WLAN-Stick-MBit/dp/B00I69O044/… Normal price 39.99€, discounted to 32€ atm
wow. with things so expensive there, it's no wonder you have to think twice about every euro
Well my low income does not exactly help :P
14:06
if the cost is that much, though, you could just hang on to your 802.11b/g adapter until you're able to afford a new mobo
after all, 32 euro would be like 1/5th the cost of a really good motherboard, or even as much as 1/3 the cost of a cheap one
again, there's really no need unless you are experiencing network impairments which are not the fault of your DSL connection
As I said, it is not mine. Got it from a friend. And if I buy a new mobo I am gonna buy a new processor as well, so I rather save up for some good hardware this time instead of buying cheap stuff again. My Mobo is only 1 year old and the LAN Device totally fucks up my machine.
and only if those impairments are severe enough to interrupt whatever you use the internet for
I disabled it completely now since I had freezes with it activated.
Well, it was active in the BIOS and one day my machine froze, after having it to shut down for like 10 minutes the LAN Device was suddenly there again. Tried to plug the cable back in, played a game, froze again. Disabled the LAN Device, no more freezes.
@Assylum what kind of freezes? does the mouse just stop moving and the system hard-locks?
you might be able to find an updated firmware for your lan adapter -- it's unlikely, but it could happen
Well not just the mouse, picture too, sound everything
14:09
and you don't get a BSOD?
meh, AC tends to be expensive
nope, windows only reports an unexpected power loss in the event log and no kernel dump is written.
let me see what i can dig up on that lan adapter
My PSU is a good one, so it cant be that one.
@Assylum: I'd seriously try other sources. If its for a PC, I can probably throw together a significantly better set up for roughly half the price
what lan adaptor/motherboard?
well, not AC, but dualband
@JourneymanGeek Asrock 785GM-S3 with a Realtek 8105EL
aww, crap. Its AMD, so I'm not much help
CPU is a 965 Black Edition
searching pci database
most unusual
no reference to the 8105EL
14:15
wait. fast ethernet?
is that 100 Mbps?
what version of Windows are you running @Assylum ?
14:16
I'm confused. Why does a modernish machine have fast ethernet?
@JourneymanGeek cheap? :D
@allquixotic Windows 7 with all patches, legit version
@JourneymanGeek Marketing Blabla :P
@allquixotic: no offence to @Assylum but everything I have other than my atom box... dating back at least 7 years has gig-e
> Win7 and WinServer 2008 R2 Driver
did you try that driver @Assylum ?
updated March 24, 2014
14:17
the atom box can't handle gig-e. I tried ;p
@JourneymanGeek YOU WANT THE TRUTH? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!
Would you believe I'm processor limited?
@allquixotic The driver is not the issue, the device can get lost each time I start my machine. Lost as in it disappears from the device manager completely
@JourneymanGeek yes -- my Yoga 2 is CPU-bound on many things
@allquixotic: oh, its an early modem atom
sftp file transfers are processor limited too
14:18
@Assylum but the driver may come with loadable microcode (firmware) that fixes the issue
most network devices have firmware that's loaded by the driver on initialization
It might just be failing
Unusual but plasible
hmm k. Well to be honest with you, I rather don't fiddle too much with it atm. If I scrap my machine completely I am pretty much f*****
@Assylum you won't be "scrapping your machine" by updating a driver
Oh, right, asrock
/me is confused by the mix of modern and oldschool specs on this board
14:19
look, here's proof that there's loadable firmware for this NIC:
@allquixotic Yeah but when I enable the LAN Adapter my machine becomes unstable. So what if it tears down the whole mobo because of some circuit being damaged near there or so? I cant afford to replace it atm :\.
@Assylum it's extremely unlikely to be that kind of an electrical problem
I am really wary to activate it again :ß
@Assylum: would borrowing a spare pci or pcie ethernet adaptor be an option?
(oh hell, if you were local I'd loan you one. I currently have a pair of them. And possibly one of those fancy 3com 10mbps adaptors if I haven't thrown it out)
not much space on that µATX Board. The gpu is obscurring nearly all of the pci-e slots.
which is why I go with wlan atm
14:21
actually I'm pretty sure I have a spare USB ethernet adapter at home
PCI would be an option. Hell, I have a pci gig-e card I need to check for shits and giggles
haha, I am in germany unfortunately. Thanks mate but WLAN is fine atm until I can replace my machine :)).
Planning on some nice MOBO with a FX8350
@Assylum: If not for the 5ghz requirement, the micro dongles out there are nice. I would not get 802.11 AC in your shoes, just dualband N
No ASROCK this time though :P
@Assylum: meh, get intel ;p
14:23
never used Asrock mobo before, but my dad has, and it works (™)
@JourneymanGeek Sorry, but AMD has way more bang for the buck
I've been using Asus -- not a huge fan, but it's OK
Asrock tends to be stable but wierd
@Assylum: most folk these days disagree
I am going for a Gigabyte again - I only had this ASRock since it was in a bundle.
@Assylum unless you're using the on-board iGPU and have no discrete graphics card, that statement is totally false, I'm sorry but it's wrong
as far as CPU bang for the buck (including power usage and upfront cost), Intel low-end CPUs and high-end ones absolutely obliterate AMD's literally obsolete CPU lineup
14:24
@Assylum: I have a 7 year old system with a gigabyte board. Except for some vintages, they're rock solid
I'll come right out and say it in no uncertain terms
AMD CPUs, even the very latest ones available, are obsolete in 2014
OBSOLETE!
(disclaimer, I have a last gen core i7, 16gb of ram, and a SSD. So... I have a clear bias ;p)
Show me a cpu from intel that has the same bang as the fx8350 and does not cost more than 160€
@Assylum: hm. Probably a modern core i3 ;p
i3 are not really good for gaming.
and i7 cost a lot more
If you are cheap like me, there is really no way around amd
14:27
@Assylum: I really do mean there's a good chance a haswell core i3 would beat the crap out of your fx8350
a core i5 is what I'd go with
Well, I need the money first. Gonna see whats hot on the market then when I have it :P. No point in worrying right now. Anyway, thanks for the good help to everyone.
XD true
But seriously, when you do, keep an open mind
(Hell, my next box may have a AMD video card ;p)
Of course, you are free to send me any amount of dollares or pesos to my Computer Funds lol. (just kidding)
14:33
it may seem like a big difference between the "high" passmark score of the AMD vs the i5s being compared there, but look at the huge difference in single thread performance
@JourneymanGeek I have an AMD7850, I like it
if gaming is your thing, single thread performance is what will make the difference between a laggy game and a playable experience, because most games either run on a single thread or a very small number of highly active threads and a bunch of threads that barely do anything
I have a gforce 660
@allquixotic Yes, intel are only better in single thread performance, amd fx is way better in multithreading perfomance though. But all new games do support multi cores. And hey, older games that are single core don't really need more than 4ghz single core speed imho.
Bob
Bob
@Assylum You could get a PCIe or even USB eth port - they're considerably cheaper.
14:34
@Assylum it's extremely rare even for the newest games to have more than two "hot" threads (hot = using high % CPU utilization)
It works great since my monitor is only 720p, but when I upgrade monitors eventually, I may need a better card
and an Intel CPU with hyperthreading and four cores can easily balance 20 or 30 or 500 threads at low % utilization each
I still have a 16:10 monitor@1680x1050
Bob
Bob
And once again I should probably read the whole transcript before suggesting things.
@Assylum i3s are actually perfectly fine for the vast majority of games.
(Best price/size I could get, and this is back when I was running a dell I rescued from a dumpster ;p)
14:36
@JourneymanGeek Mine is about 8 years old.. but runs :). It broke once after 1.6 years in use, but they replaced the monitor completely and since then no issues.
Love 2 years enforced warranty in germany :D
@Assylum: We have a nicer bigger monitor on the other PC
and then a 4770K is better a single and multithreaded performance, and is only about $120 more than a FX8350... if you're not going to go cheap on your next purchase, that would be the "goal" CPU ;-)
XD
or its replacement
@allquixotic I wish I could buy that :D
Bob
Bob
@Assylum You and I have very different definitions of way better.
14:38
@bob okay?
Bob
Bob
The AMD chipthere barely beats the Haswell in even multi-core perf.
And let's not forget that crazy TDP :S
@Bob Well I am disabled and I have about 200€ a month to live, after bills. So there is not much room to buy this kind of stuff :).
eh... unless AMD is first off the production line when TSMC ramps up 20nm (and their CPUs probably won't be; I'm betting they'll push Radeon through first, and Nvidia will be fighting for fab time too), Broadwell i3s will whomp anything AMD can throw out at 28nm and the discussion will essentially be over
(When I designed my box, I was running SB, and was going to get a core i5. LOTS of comparison shopping, a free SSD from a contest and a 3 month delay cause I was too damned busy to buy parts and...)
@Assylum: I think I saved for almost a year to build my current system
@Assylum is electricity cheap there? I'd think it would be expensive, like everything else in Germany
125W vs. the much lower TDP of Intel procs can make a difference in your electric bill
14:40
@allquixotic Not that expensive. I pay about 60€ a month for electricity. Gas is the big part of my bill with 125€
Bob
Bob
@allquixotic 125 vs 84, in this case. That's 30% less at full utilisation...
And my PC is the only device running basically. I have no TV, only a fridge, an oven and a washing machine.
@Assylum meaning your PC is a larger percentage of your bill because you use relatively little electricity
meaning, using less from the PC could save you... 5 euro per month maybe? who knows? :P
@allquixotic I already saved a lot by dumping my cheap psu. got this one: corsair.com/en/tx650w
Bob
Bob
Depending on how you use it (is it normally idling? under full load?), an Intel proc would be cheaper over several months.
14:41
@Assylum nice and efficient PSU
@Bob yeah, Intel CPUs will have a better power profile across the board
@allquixotic Yeah after 2 cheap PSU failing over the course of 1 year I bought a good one.
And to think I was one of those people who used to cheap out totally on PSUs
Bob
Bob
@JourneymanGeek :(
Then again, I probably can't use a 'good' PSU
14:42
@JourneymanGeek every time you buy a cheap PSU, in a parallel universe somewhere, an Emperor Palpatine successfully electrocutes and kills a Luke Skywalker.
Bob
Bob
apparently simulated sine UPSes fuck with the PFC on good PSUs
@Bob: both my systems have reasonable ones. Seasonic M12 II on my desktop, and some coolermaster one on the shared box
@Bob: why a UPS?
Bob
Bob
@JourneymanGeek Because the power here drops out or drops low alarmingly often and I'd rather not lose my RAID array?
I need a (good) UPS :/ that way I can enable write caching in the SDRAM of my RAID card for ++performance
Bob
Bob
And a full sine UPS costs 3-4x ($100 => $400)
14:44
What is your opinion on SSHD's btw? I am currently also looking at a seagate SSHD with 1tb... it looks so yummy :D.
@allquixotic: Meh, my systems were fairly cheap.
@Assylum: SSD or hybrids?
@Assylum SSD hybrids have usually shown to be about as fast as a regular hard drive, just more expensive
I'm not convinced
the marketing stuff says "50x faster!" blah blah. yeah, if you always use the same 16 GB of data only
Well the one I am looking at is about 10 bucks more than a regular HDD.
Bob
Bob
If you want SSD caching, I'd recommend getting a small (32-64 GB) SSD and using that as a cache.
^
and of course the bigger the SSD, the less swapping you'll have, and the better the performance will be
Bob
Bob
14:45
@Assylum Really? Just a quick seach says they're about the same price as a 2 TB HDD here :\
I'd rather go with an SSD and a HDD.
But thats what I did
SSD-hybrids are not nearly as fast under most enthusiast workloads as the manufacturers like to claim
(well, that and a salvaged 'dead' drive off a laptop that won't die)
hell, doubling your current RAM (or basically using as much as your CPU will allow) will do worlds more for your performance than moving to a hybrid SSD
Bob
Bob
14:46
Thing is, SSHDs have a cache of something like 8 GB.
That's... not very impressive.
Heck, you may as well add 8 GB of RAM (though a bit pricier)
@Bob yeah, I've seen them go as high as (wow!) 32 GB
I am just looking at a good HDD for gaming, not a main system drive :)
Eventually I will get a ssd of course, but as I said, needs time :P
@Assylum and gaming is pretty much exactly the worst possible workload for an SSHD
@allquixotic really?
the reason being, you load up one game (say, SWTOR) and that gets pushed into your SSHD cache, and basically fills it up
then you load up some other big game and it pushes SWTOR out of the cache
then you load up SWTOR and it pushes the old one out of the cache....
14:47
funny you mention SWTOR :D
basically each time you load a game you're going to be flushing the cache
I quit it yesterday lol.
@Assylum I did read your question.
@Bob: heh, I think if I was building a low end box, 8gb would be how much I'd go with, ramwise
14:48
an 8 GB cache is basically a practical joke
Bob
Bob
@JourneymanGeek "low end" :(
I have 8 GB of RAM
@Bob much too little :D
Bob
Bob
still not maxing it out enough to bother upgrading, and I'm not really gunning for performance these days
@Bob: well, I went with 16 on my current box
Its overkill in most cases
Bob
Bob
@allquixotic I don't think I'll bother with incremental upgrades on this machine. Maybe add more RAM or HDDs later, but no GPU, mobo, etc..
14:49
I have a low-end box. I know what the lack of performance feels like it. It's physically painful to wait for my browser to render a youtube video because it's CPU or bus-bound.
I suspect modern low end boxen go with 4
4 GB RAM and a Pentium N3520 is enough for web browsing and Word, but anything more, !!no
Bob
Bob
@JourneymanGeek The cheaper tablets go with 2 :(
And I was considering one.
@Bob: 2 is too little IMO
Bob
Bob
@JourneymanGeek Ya.
14:50
The shared box has that much and it struggles
Bob
Bob
I'm hoping to be able to upgrade to full Broadwell + Win9 (if it's out)
though, maybe wait another year or two for Broadwell-E, no hurry here :P
alas, now that I'm out of school of IT, no more free windows
Bob
Bob
o.O
@JourneymanGeek Thanks for reminding me. grabs MSDN keys
@Bob: I can't get new keys. I can use old ones
so I have a spare win8 key for a rainy day (Maybe for shared computer 6.0)
@Bob I think I'm done with Intel mainstream, honestly
it's going to be hard to budget it out without breaking the bank, but my next upgrade is going to be to an -E series
undecided if I can hold on until Broadwell-E (that's probably going to be 2017, or Q4 2016 at the earliest), but if not, Haswell-E is plenty
Haswell-E CPU performance is frightening compared to my 3770K
even Ivy-E
lol even Sandy-E is faster than what I have
Bob
Bob
14:55
@allquixotic I just wish they had good switchable graphics on the desktop.
95+% of the time, I don't need any more than the IGP.
and I've already committed to skipping the current AMD Radeon R9 generation
I'll let them shrink to 20nm before I buy into a new GPU
heh. Kinda the opposite of my philosophy. If I have a good card, I might as well use it ;p
Bob
Bob
I think I'll stick with Nvidia. Not happy with CCC.
@JourneymanGeek Power consumption.
though quicksync (which now dosen't need a monitor plugged into the IGP) is entirely worth it ;p
Bob
Bob
The difference between a GTX 560 and 560 Ti at idle was something like 50-100W
(130 => 200+)
14:57
@Bob: I have a 660
@Bob haven't had any problems with CCC in a long time
and driver upgrades between stable quarterly releases are painless
which is supposed to be a good balance between power efficiency and raw power
Bob
Bob
@JourneymanGeek Just saying that a GPU uses a lot of power.
OC though
aside from a few random glitches in Chrome (which may well be the fault of Chrome), Catalyst 13.12 has been really good to me
Bob
Bob
14:57
@allquixotic I just don't really like the interface (on laptop and work machine, though)
@Bob mine is at about 35W idle
Bob
Bob
@allquixotic I believe mine is around that region. Maybe a little higher. That leaves ~100 W for the other components - 4 HDDs probably draw about 20-30 W, not even counting anything else.
The Ti was crazy though.
my firmware has the idle clock profile setting the GPU core to about 150 MHz at idle
and it stays on that profile unless you do something like watch a video or play a game or something
it can handle web browsing and Aero on 150W 100% of the time
Bob
Bob
There was this guy who said 600 W idle was normal... wtf.
Bob
Bob
14:59
I struggle to think of how you can even manage that.

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