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14:00
@DanteTheEgregore: voted to reopen
@JourneymanGeek Thanks. I'm hoping I'll get an answer soon. I'm rather confused currently.
@DanteTheEgregore: This is why, even if people yell at me, I try my best to comment on things I vote to close, assuming I have the spoons to ;p
meh, I bet it was robo-reviewing...
One actually flagged it as "belongs on webapps" that one really confused me.
O_o
14:07
I know. ._.
Desktop software is completely outside their scope.
@DanteTheEgregore I would edit the title and just say "disable advertisements" or something...
I'm curious how this is off topic. If the flagger could please explain his logic and possibly enlighten me as to where I've gone wrong, I'd be grateful. — DanteTheEgregore 11 hours ago
SE sites don't want to enlighten askers, it wants to get rid of them
3
@ThatBrazilianGuy: heh, or folk being too quick on the draw
It now has 3 reopen votes (including mine) should be reopening soon.
14:16
@JourneymanGeek Seriously, though. The ratio of "close with a nice explanation of what's wrong" to "close and burninate to hell" is somewhat... skewed on SE.
No shit.
@ThatBrazilianGuy: and people occasionally get pissed off when you try to explain why :/
Bob
Bob
yesterday, by ChatBot John Cavil
@Boris_yo mso "me saying oh" in text talk.
His last message.
What did you do, Boris?!
@JourneymanGeek F@#$ people; explanations serve the community.
Better leave explanations than leave clueless askers.
Bob
Bob
@ThatBrazilianGuy Try telling it to do a mono print.
14:17
@ThatBrazilianGuy: that is precisely why I bother
@Bob I selected monochrome on the print dialog.
Bob
Bob
Black text in colour mode actually uses the colours to get better smoothing and gradients.
Mono mode can only use dithering, so tends to look slightly worse.
@ThatBrazilianGuy Oh.
!!info
!!live
!!die
!!live
@ThatBrazilianGuy: there's often a way to tell the printer to ignore that ink is low
might void the warranty tho
Bob
Bob
@allquixotic I'm going to try restarting Cavil...
My new i5 laptop is taking forever to arrive.... =(
Let's see if my inmstitution dreamspark account offers Win8
So I can ask for refund on the OEM win8 and spare $400 ;-)
Bob
Bob
14:21
!!info
@Bob I awoke on Mon, 18 Nov 2013 14:21:16 GMT (that's about 28 seconds ago), learned 25 commands
Bob
Bob
weeee
!!status
@Bob I'm alive!
Bob
Bob
lol
Weird. I can order Win8 and Win8.1 on my DreamsPark Account, even though I received an email last October stating the program ended.
And it's open again. Hopefully I'll still get an answer on the meta if there's one to be had. I'm still curious what the flaggers saw wrong with it.
@DanteTheEgregore It's racism, you're green, short and noseless.
@ThatBrazilianGuy Obviously. :p
14:32
@Bob thanks. I was on the road when this happened. no idea why Cavil keeps dying
I just "bought" Win 8.1 for USD 0, next step: wait for my new Dell to arrive and then ask for refund on Win8.
Bob
Bob
@allquixotic Perhaps something in the JS error console? I have no idea how to look at it, though.
@Bob it's a real PITA. the only way I've been able to login is to RDP and to manually type in the password (can't copy and paste)
I assume it isn't Firefox that's crashing
Bob
Bob
Most likely not. I can leave my desktop FF on chat for weeks at a time.
Oh yea, there was that idea to port it to Node
(problem: I have no clue how to use Node :P)
ooh look a cheap dual xeon server! oh wait it's 5320
@Bob apparently their long-term goal is to make the bot login and run entirely in Node, but that's gonna be hard
14:36
@Bob: it would be really nice if there was a proper api for chat
but not bloody likely :/
@allquixotic is your steam avatar the braid guy?
it's significantly harder to automate this stuff at the HTTP layer than at the browser DOM layer
Bob
Bob
@JourneymanGeek yea... that's not gonna happen
hence why something like PhantomJS is ideal if it can run headless
@ThatBrazilianGuy yes
Bob
Bob
@allquixotic Remember there are DOM plugins for Node
14:37
@allquixotic No wonder then why I couldn't find you on search, it's a private profile.
!!tell 12228391 orlmente
@ThatBrazilianGuy good :D
Bob
Bob
I don't even have a point of reference for the performance of all those AMD servers.
@Bob which AMD?
Bob
Bob
14:38
Probably a safe assumption that they're bad, though. Especially when they're going cheaper than a Pentium D o.O
@Bob: planning on buying a server? o0
Bob
Bob
@allquixotic FX-6100, FX-4100, Phenom II x6 1045t, Phenom II x4 840... and that's just on this list :P
@JourneymanGeek A dedi server.
Would be cheaper to just get a coulpe of 5420s or 5520s, slap them on a mobo, shove it in a case and call it a day
> A dedi jedi server
@Bob the Opteron 6386 SE is pretty badass in multi-processor configurations, but good luck finding an offer for that
Bob
Bob
but my net sucks, and it's probably rather noisy
@allquixotic Heh, not at these price ranges.
14:41
@Bob: apparently there's a specific model thats really cheap ;p
Bob
Bob
> Core2Quad i5 750
what the hell is that
actually I could afford one other than shopping ;p
Bob
Bob
> Core2Quad i5 2400
???
???????????????
Bob
Bob
(someone is mincing names)
14:42
lol
totally
@Bob yeah, that's not a valid product. neither one of them
if it's an i5-750 or an i5-2400, "Core2" shouldn't be there; it's Nehalem at a minimum
Bob
Bob
@allquixotic They have a couple of "Core2Quad i7"s as well
if it's a Core 2, then everything starting at "i" is wrong
@Bob be careful... when you notice you already have 6 PIII
Bob
Bob
I'm rather concerned about hosting providers that can't figure out their own CPU names...
14:44
lol
@Bob As long as they don't advertise their servers run MS Linux...
2
@ThatBrazilianGuy that would be LAME...
Bob
Bob
@Braiam No, that would be WINE. LAME is a MP3 encoder.
3
@Bob No it ain't!
LAME == LAME Ain't an MP3 Encoder
2
!!tell 12228573 facepalm
@allquixotic Well, that's quite LAME.
It is! I always use it.
whooooosh
Know Goro? Or Kintaro? They can perform quadtruple facepalm.
@Boris_yo :D I know those
15:00
So apparently proper way to write programs and class libraries in C# is to make every class and method public and name them all with 3-9 apparently random letters followed by "set".
@allquixotic I forgot to add Sheeva. I think Goro and Kintaro have crush on her and at war with each other for her.
Dll I received to connect to a hospital's database. I can't make sense of it and the maintainers know nothing about it.
@DanteTheEgregore it might be obfuscated
if you're going to receive a binary and expected to use it, you should either have source code or good documentation
They have neither. It's not obfuscated, just poorly written.
15:04
ugh
One guy uses acetone to clean thermal paste and advocates what he does 0.o
@Boris_yo Really? o.O
@DanteTheEgregore Yes and claims it does job effectively.
Bob
Bob
> hospital's database
You didn't need to say any more.
MUMPS (Massachusetts General Hospital Utility Multi-Programming System, later: 'Multi-User Multi-Programming System') or alternatively M, is a general-purpose computer programming language that provides ACID (Atomic, Consistent, Isolated, and Durable) transaction processing. Its most unique and differentiating feature is its "built-in" database, enabling high-level access to disk storage using simple symbolic program variables (subscripted arrays), similar to the variables used by most languages to access main memory. The M database is a key-value database engine optimized for high-thro...
@Boris_yo: kinda makes sense if you are careful
Bob
Bob
15:08
GREPTHIS()
       N S,N,T,I,K,Q S I="K",S="11",K="l1",Q="R",T="K"
       I I=T D T
       Q:$Q Q Q
T  I I,S&K S S=S+K Q
have fun
Bob
Bob
the full form is this:
GREPTHIS()
       NEW SET,NEW,THEN,IF,KILL,QUIT SET IF="KILL",SET="11",KILL="l1",QUIT="RETURN",THEN="KILL"
       IF IF=THEN DO THEN
       QUIT:$QUIT QUIT QUIT ; (quit)
THEN  IF IF,SET&KILL SET SET=SET+KILL QUIT
   QUIT:$QUIT QUIT QUIT ; (quit)
lol
they really want to quit, don't they?
._.
Found this gem:
// The constructor of the class is private, so nobody can instantiate it.
// Because the class provides static methods only there is no need to do
// that.
Bob
Bob
15:13
@DanteTheEgregore Hm? Is there a problem?
That's not really a gem, @DanteTheEgregore
That's fairly standard
Bob
Bob
It's recommended by MS themselves...
@DanteTheEgregore that seems kind of obvious, so the only WTF is that they had to put that in as a comment instead of assuming the user/maintainer would know that
also for singletons which instantiate themselves
Bob
Bob
> A private constructor is a special instance constructor. It is generally used in classes that contain static members only. If a class has one or more private constructors and no public constructors, other classes (except nested classes) cannot create instances of this class. For example:
15:14
a WTF would be a class with a protected constructor that's sealed :-)
There's no reason to include a constructor and not just make the entire class static. ._.
0
Q: Dot net exe rename error in server

IT researcherWe are using "VB .Net" programs installed in server which is running Windows server 2003 R2. We can rename ".Net" exe files in server even if those files kept open in client PCs which are running on Win XP and Win8. But when the program is kept open in Win7 PC, we are not able to rename the exe o...

TL;DR (and rewritten in English): I have an outdated Windows Server OS pushing CIFS/SMB, and oddly enough, clients running XP or Windows 8 are unable to lock files on the server, but Windows 7 clients can (O.o?)
Bob
Bob
@DanteTheEgregore True, that's potentially a better way of doing things, but it does have slightly different semantics.
11
Q: Is MUMPS alive?

ern0At my first workplace we were using Digital Standard MUMPS on a PDP 11-clone (TPA 440), then we've switched to Micronetics Standard MUMPS running on a Hewlett-Packard machine, HP-UX 9, around early 90's. Is still MUMPS alive? Are there anyone using it? If yes, please write some words about it: a...

!!tell 12229125 no
Bob
Bob
15:17
"Is MUMPS alive?" - Yes, but all of the developers are killing themselves. — Steve Evers Sep 20 '10 at 20:39
4
@Bob Someone asking why to use private constructors?
!!tell 12229126 yes
@JimmyHoffa You iz in mindjail
oh snap
Bob
Bob
LOL
15:17
@allquixotic It is actually
!!unban JimmyHoffa
@allquixotic User JimmyHoffa freed from mindjail!
Bob
Bob
I wonder when that happened.
maybe putting him in mindjail made him so mad that he broke RSA using functional programming (because FP solves every problem) and got into my server by deriving my keypair, then disabled Cavil
It goes by a different name now, but it's totally backwards compatible with everything old, one of the fellows who hangs about Programmers still does it
15:18
@allquixotic Suggest an edit?
I don't know how he tolerates it, he's been a senior .NET dev in the past but just can get good paying gigs in MUMPS because it's so rare and he's good at it
he probably tolerates it because of the money
Bob
Bob
@allquixotic He probably goes into work high...
I've left good money because I couldn't tolerate things before, but then that's my priorities...
it's not that hard to understand: old guy knows dying tech that a lot of orgs still depend on; demands high salary; gets to be complacent, use stuff he knows and is familiar with, and get paid more than his peers
maybe the scary thing is that he can tolerate it
15:19
@Bob haha he could, I mean he deals with MUMPS folks all day; not the brightest lot
no matter how much something sucks, if you actually understand how it works and how badly it sucks, it slowly becomes tolerable
@allquixotic He's not an old guy actually, he just randomly got a MUMPS gig fresh from college and it's kind of been somethign that's followed him around even as he's worked in other techs
Bob
Bob
Oh lordy.
6
A: Is MUMPS alive?

Chris RichardsonMUMPS is very much alive. It has been one of the most trust-worthy systems going in the proper hands. The programming staff is usually small and the up-time is impressive. It may seem to the uninitiated that MUMPS is obtuse, but it is possible to write very lucid and highly functional code in ...

Line breaks man, line breaks!
also he might have accrued huge lists of regexes and automation macros (in AHK or whatever) and other stuff to help him quickly deal with the worst pains of MUMPS, depending on how sophisticated he is
I have a few trinkets that I use to deal with the realities of VBScript
mostly it's bookmarks and code snippets though
@allquixotic He actually learned Haskell recently after following some link I passed around, and ever since he's been talking about writing a pre-compiler in Haskell
Bob
Bob
15:21
what the f--
6
A: Need MUMPS Sample Code

trurlThis is some MUMPS i wrote for fun. I guess if you can analyze this, your tool works: Q N R,Q,C,D,E,W,B,G,H,S,T,U,V,F,L,P,N,J,A S N=$G(N),Q='N,F=Q+Q,P=F+F,W=$L($T(Q)) S W=$E(W,Q),S='N_+N,W=W-F*S,L=$G(L),R=$C(Q_F_P),R(F)=$C(F+Q_F),R(P)=$C(W-F) W # S T=$E($T(Q+F),F,W\S)_$C(W+S+F) X T S B=$P(T,$C...

@JimmyHoffa a pre-compiler for MUMPS? what would such a thing do? sort of a macro language that compiles down to raw MUMPS, but with syntactic sugar?
Bob
Bob
> wrote for fun
@Bob He says that style is actually not uncommon still
Bob
Bob
uhm.
@allquixotic exactly
Last conversation I think his design was just to put some jargon blocks to say like OTHER_LANGUAGE_STARTS_HERE
blablabla
OTHER_LANGUAGE_ENDS_HERE
and have precompiler parse and macro expand it into MUMPS
15:23
well if you're going through all the effort to do that, you might as well just write some sort of translator (I guess you could call it a compiler) that accepts your favorite language as input, and spits out MUMPS as output
compilers whose task is to take some language and transform it into some other high-level language are becoming increasingly common; the idea of a compiler spitting out some bytecode or native machine code is a bit too restrictive for the modern compiler guru
Vala, for instance, spits out GLib-using C
That's where you need to look now, it's no longer MUMPS it's "Intersystems Cache"
(person I'm talking about is top user for that tag on SO which is just sad heh)
the thing that strikes me about MUMPS and VBScript and other such environments is that veteran developers in these languages really tend not to mind them, on the whole; and once they've accumulated a critical mass of tricks and code snippets, they don't really miss what the language lacks, because they're so capable of getting shit done
if you are in such an environment and you hate it, either you haven't done it long enough, or you're one of those code poets who isn't satisfied unless your code is bloody elegant
@allquixotic Or because they're old, have work, and just don't care about quality because they've never been allowed to do it.
15:28
@JimmyHoffa except where the runtime environment itself provides ridiculous restrictions (as in the case of VBScript), I'm not sure that quality directly follows from what the language offers
Anyone knows what's "Microsoft Windows 8.1 Symbols"? All I can find on Google are people asking what it is. In German.
@allquixotic It does, it definitely does.
@ThatBrazilianGuy oh, you mean debug symbols maybe
Bob
Bob
@allquixotic Or my inability to find an IDE that has reasonable performance...
@Bob well, there's that, too :P
Bob
Bob
15:29
@ThatBrazilianGuy You mean the MSDN/Dreamspark image?
@Bob Emacs for life, who needs an IDE when you have an operating system?? :D
Bob
Bob
@JimmyHoffa Lemme know when you get it to run Tomcat and read Eclipse project files.
@allquixotic Lacking features in languages are the reason kludges like the strategy and visitor patterns exist
they're probably looking for a checked build of Windows
@allquixotic There are 2 products on DreamSpark: "Microsoft Windows 8.1 Symbols" and "Microsoft Windows 8.1 Symbols Debug Checked". Both show up on the Windows 8 product, not on Visual Studio.
15:30
@Bob Have you tried emacs? Dude people make it do everything :P
Bob
Bob
29
Q: What are the differences between the Windows 8 editions available on MSDN?

Andrew-DufresneMy DreamSpark account shows me several download links for Windows 8. I am not sure what is the difference between them and which one is suitable for me. Microsoft Windows 8 with Apps 32-bit Microsoft Windows 8 with Apps 64-bit Microsoft Windows 8 Debug/Checked Build 32-bit Microsoft Windows 8 D...

@ThatBrazilianGuy not sure what you mean by "not on Visual Studio" -- the checked build of Windows has extra debugging symbols in the libraries
@allquixotic I don't know nothing about symbols or debugging
Bob
Bob
15:31
@JimmyHoffa Nope.
That only starts/stops it.
4
A: How do I get the Eclipse project effect out of Emacs?

Bozhidar BatsovI'd suggest a combination of projectile + ctags + ECB (or just CEDET) + cscope. Projectile offers easy navigation in a project's files and some nice functions like text search, tags regenerations, etc. ECB is an Emacs Code Browser that makes Emacs appear more IDE-like, CEDET will give you smart ...

Bob
Bob
No deploy support, no debugging support, etc., etc..
@ThatBrazilianGuy Then don't use it.
@JourneymanGeek However this also erases writings on chip.
Bob
Bob
Those images are primarily provided for driver development.
@Bob heh emacs is awesome the end! :D
Bob
Bob
15:32
Most people never need to touch them.
That's my Ad Canem Hoc argument. Yep.
@Bob Yeah, the answer you linked was really helpful. Thanks!
I wonder which of below fits my purpose better:

1. 50ML Bottle Isopropanol Alcohol 99.9% Isopropyl Propan-2-OL Liquid Cleaner
2. 50ML IPA Alcohol 99.9% Pure Dropper Bottle Isopropyl Astringent Isopropanol
Bob
Bob
@Boris_yo They're... the same thing?
@JimmyHoffa but if the strategy and visitor patterns work, and they don't introduce bugs, what's the point? we may just have a difference of philosophy here, but I'm very much of the opinion that a language+environment pair is best judged based on the results it produces, where "results" is an amalgam of both the good and bad stuff (bug/defect rate, performance, compatibility, etc)
for me it just comes down to gathering data on this stuff and making an empirical conclusion after observing a few big software projects being written, and then figuring out what the best result-set is... whichever one comes out on top, wins
15:33
@Bob From same seller but different description.
heck, if Haskell happens to have the best result-set, so be it; if that were the case, I'd proudly declare it the best language/environment
and then there are people who have already gathered this data and knowingly use something that's worse, like VBScript :-) that's just disappointing, but eh, they're still getting shit done... just not getting it done well :/
Bob
Bob
> DUAL XEON 5639, 48GB, 500GB + 1TB, 100MB UNMET, DEBIAN X64, /29 (WII5639)
Just waiting for the setup now :)
price?
Bob
Bob
(actually ordered yesterday, but it got confirmed today)
@Bob ah, you went with Wholesale?
Bob
Bob
15:37
@allquixotic 69 USD
congrats, cool dude, cool cool cool
Bob
Bob
@allquixotic yea, pretty good reviews, nice and established, and not too expensive :P
that's the L and not the X, right?
Bob
Bob
I probably would've gone with versaweb if they had the 5520, just because they're closer
@allquixotic pretty sure
@allquixotic The point is that they do introduce bugs by way of code overhead and maintenance overhead compared to when a language supports them at the language level and you have a code reduction, plus with language level support you can get additional guarantees like atomicity for multithreading or other things which are much harder to get right done manually by a programmer each and every time
Bob
Bob
15:37
I'd have to wait for the setup to finish and go in to check.
and that's just simple examples, you ignore languages lacking larger features like a proper module system so you end up in some variation of DLL hell
Bob
Bob
@JimmyHoffa but a language stuffed with features can end up being too restrictive
and you end up expending a lot more effort when you need to do something slightly differently
@Bob Features don't restrict, that's crazy talk :P Restrictions restrict, just because a language has features doesn't mean it has to disallow things
@Bob Not more effort than in the language that doesn't have those features, rather exactly the same effort as those languages in that scenario
Bob
Bob
Not necessarily disallow, but a side effect could be more complexity.
@Bob from what I can tell, dual Xeon X56** procs can outperform a single 3700, but the L drops it down to just below the 3700
15:40
@Bob That may be a side effect of someone misusing features but more features rarely means the resulting code is more complex if the code writer is wise enough not to write overly complex code
Bob
Bob
@allquixotic single or multithreaded? :P
@JimmyHoffa not the code; the language
@Bob multi, but I guess it depends on the workload too
Bob
Bob
@allquixotic yea - pretty sure the Xeon's increased cache could heavily affect certain loads
cache locality optimized code with lots of independent tasks with very little synchronization might end up running better on the 24 thread box
OTOH, JIT code like .NET tends to have relatively poor cache locality and a lot of thrashing
Bob
Bob
@allquixotic not good news for me :P
hm. perhaps I should've gotten the SSD. NAH
user image
5
15:42
that dog gets a medal for wiping his feet :D
i bet that dog is as smart as @JourneymanGeek
what's his SU handle?
@Bob eh, they're working on it. JIT is getting better
there are many years worth of research and continual improvement left before we reach a plateau in the quality of JIT compilers
static compilers probably have already plateaued, but JIT opens up a number of new possibilities
Bob
Bob
@allquixotic I'd expect mono to be worse, though
@Bob mono has a lot of people working on it still, so don't count them out
I'm still waiting for their second-generation garbage collector to stop leaking and pegging the CPU with OpenSimulator, but they're definitely working on it
Bob
Bob
@allquixotic They still haven't fully implemented significant chunks of the libraries. Though I suppose they could focus on optimisation first.
they're also heavily integrating LLVM into Mono
Bob
Bob
(I have a rather bad habit of running into a ton of TODOs with MoMA)
15:47
@Bob there are some libraries that may never get implemented because they have too much of a win32 dependency
System.Management appears to be a very thin wrapper around WMI, AFAIK
Bob
Bob
@allquixotic some of these would have been fairly os-agnostic, AFAICT
Microsoft.Win32.Registry? :P
Bob
Bob
System.Diagnostics.Process
@Bob um ...
you're not running like Mono 2.4, are you?
running Mono <= the latest stable is really foolish because their velocity has been good in recent months, so you're missing out on a lot if you use older mono
Bob
Bob
@allquixotic I distinctly remember one of the *ProcessorTime properties returning incorrect results
15:50
@Bob meh... bug != unimplemented
actually there are an incredible number of LLVM and JIT-related commits in mono master just the past week or so; I might try mono git master on OpenSimulator with sgen and llvm enabled to see if it's any better
@Bob 2011
Bob
Bob
Specifically, it might be "implemented", but it doesn't work. At all.
@allquixotic I was still experiencing it this year.
@allquixotic There were no related commits since before 2010
In fact, the last change was 2007.
* Process.cs: implemented icall for system/user times.
Notice it doesn't mention total time...
@Bob hm, if they can't get those methods to work correctly they might want to mark them with some kind of attribute or warning
it really isn't a stretch to say that you have to specifically test your code with Mono to get it working well; you can't just take any old .NET program and run it on Mono without any worries
Bob
Bob
@allquixotic Yea, I figured that much out :P
15:55
but then again, there are plenty of libraries and programs out there that do test on Mono, and make sure that their released binaries work on both .NET and Mono
it gets super complicated if you leave the safe world of Windows though because Mono supports a great many platforms
and it can't properly hide all the platform differences seamlessly from the developer
there is less platform abstraction in Mono than, say, Java, in my experience
also, WinForms applications look ugly in Mono... especially on Linux
Bob
Bob
Implemented in native code.
gint64 ves_icall_System_Diagnostics_Process_Times (HANDLE process, gint32 type) MONO_INTERNAL;
Committed by the same person, also 2007
@Bob looks like they're getting the results similarly to how the time console command gets them
Bob
Bob
	* icall-def.h, process.c, process.h: implemented icall to get
	user/system processor times.
@allquixotic Most likely.
I was trying to reverse engineer the time command, but hit about a dozen brick walls...
(which may not match the semantics as specified by the .NET API)
Bob
Bob
@allquixotic Kinda their job to abstract it so it does, isn't it?

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