Root Access

Canadian Luke

00:00

Meet @ChatBotJohnCavil

!!tell :12199014 Hi

ChatBot John Cavil

@CanadianLuke Command hi does not exist. Did you mean: hv

jmort253

I wasn't sure at first.... though that was a user just calling himself chatbot lol

Canadian Luke

!!say :12199014 Hi

ChatBot John Cavil

@CanadianLuke That didn't make much sense. Use the !!/help command to learn more.

Canadian Luke

!!help

ChatBot John Cavil

00:00

@CanadianLuke github.com/Zirak/SO-ChatBot/wiki/Interacting-with-the-bot

Canadian Luke

DAMMIT

Well, he's our bot

jmort253

lol

Canadian Luke

!!xkcd 1000

ChatBot John Cavil

Thank you for making me feel less alone.

Canadian Luke

!!hangman

ChatBot John Cavil

00:01

@CanadianLuke That didn't make much sense. Use the !!/help command to learn more.

Braiam

!!say 12199014 Hi

ChatBot John Cavil

@Braiam That didn't make much sense. Use the !!/help command to learn more.

Braiam

:(

jmort253

!!afk test

ChatBot John Cavil

@jmort253 Can you pick up some milk on your way back?

jmort253

00:01

lol

Braiam

@jmort253 :P

ChatBot John Cavil

@jmort253 Where's the milk?

jmort253

uhh.. I wasn't gone long enough.

That's awesome....

er.. I mean you're awesome @ChatBotJohnCavil

Don't want anyone sucking the oxygen out of my room or anything...

Journeyman Geek

lol

That Brazilian Guy

1 hour ago, by Hennes

@ThatBrazilianGuy Heh. At least you did not have an item (0 (none) No power chord" on your bill.

@Hennes I'd simply ask for a partial refund. (98% is partial, right?)

That said, I read about a guy who got $400 refund from more than one manufacturer, because he didn't want windows preinstalled, and local laws forbid "coupled sales".

Hennes

00:14

That would be a partial refund of zero cost.

Journeyman Geek

ugh. bloody flash

Braiam

@JourneymanGeek WHY ARE YOU USING FLASH!!!!

Journeyman Geek

I'm getting seriously cheesed off with everyone trying to bundle software with my updates

3

Braiam

FLASH IS EVIL!

Journeyman Geek

@Braiam: because the internet can be stupid, HTML5 isn't universal, and someone moved my cheese

That Brazilian Guy

00:19

@JourneymanGeek Humm.... CHEEEEESE.... CHEESE IS YUMMY

Journeyman Geek

we also need java, and I've gotten very good at telling ask to go away.

@ThatBrazilianGuy: thats doooonuuutttsssss

ccchhhheeesssseeee

Braiam

@JourneymanGeek are you coping my meme about cheese??? are you!!

Journeyman Geek

maybe?

That Brazilian Guy

@JourneymanGeek Nassssssty simpsonnnnssssses

Journeyman Geek

(lol, for those who weren't kids in the english speaking world in the late 80s and early 90s.... thats from chip n dale, rescue rangers)

Canadian Luke

00:26

Anyone up for a game of hangman?

Braiam

@JourneymanGeek you are a very old dog :/

Journeyman Geek

@Braiam: that or I have a taste for the classics ;p

That Brazilian Guy

Cultural trivia: In Portuguese the two Disney squirrels are called "Tico" and "Teco", and if a person is realy dumb then it is said to have only two neurons with that exact names.

Journeyman Geek

chipmunks ;p

That Brazilian Guy

No, THOSE are chipmunks:

(original, of course)

@Braiam And I am a much older ~~biscoito globo~~ human:

Journeyman Geek

00:29

I don't even know what that is ;p

That Brazilian Guy

See?

Canadian Luke

@Boris_yo You should upvote my question with the bounty!

Braiam

00:48

@ThatBrazilianGuy I sent them to my father and he told me that he remembers some... but doens't know from where

allquixotic

!!back

ChatBot John Cavil

@allquixotic I thought you'd never come back!

@allquixotic That didn't make much sense. Use the !!/help command to learn more.

Hennes

01:15

Journeyman Geek

hmm

Braiam

@Hennes because... cats...

Hennes

It seems perfectly normal.

allquixotic

01:28

any opinions on the game, X Rebirth?

ah who am I kidding, this isn't The Bridge!

screw you guys ;-)

Hennes

I put it on my wishlist a few hours ago

I played X1 and poaet of X2. Nothing else yet

The end of X1 was rather anticlimatic

Journeyman Geek

@allquixotic They hardly ever talk about games there, and if this was, I'd flag that ;p

Ariane

Hey. Question for everyone. Do you know why Google uses long URLs with always tons of GET variables? Surely not to annoy users.

allquixotic

@Ariane you mean query parameters?

http://google.com?iAmAQueryParameter=v&meToo=z

Mark

01:43

can anyone help me? If A is hermitian matrix and if A^3 = I, then must A be I?

Ariane

@Hennes I mean that my search's URL ends up as this:

https://www.google.ca/search?q=My+search&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:fr:official&client=firefox-a&gws_rd=cr&ei=pc2GUqqFE4a92wWkkYGAAw

when it could be this:

https://www.google.ca/search?q=My+search

(And typing that gives the exact same result)

@Mark Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh. Maths Stack Exchange site?

Mark

i just wanted a quick help with that

Ariane

(And of course the url isn't "google.ca/...", blame the chat's system)

I'm sorry, I don't think I've ever learned what a hermitian matrix even is.

allquixotic

@Ariane consider that the alternative is to have the parameters submitted in the HTTP body, which would definitely simplify the URL, but would then mean that if you copied and pasted the URL from the address bar, as users are wont to do, someone else might not see the same results as you do with fewer or no parameters

Journeyman Geek

Hennes

01:45

Quz chat, it is clippy helpful

allquixotic

@Mark ask on math.stackexchange.com or the Mathematics chatroom; that's very off-topic for here

Hennes

You need to avoid its "help" with [Full url is this](Full url is this)

allquixotic

!!learn idk i.sstatic.net/uk7Zg.jpg

ChatBot John Cavil

@allquixotic Command idk learned

allquixotic

!!tell 12200160 idk

ChatBot John Cavil

01:46

Hennes

https://www.google.ca/search?q=My+search&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:fr:o‌fficial&client=firefox-a&gws_rd=cr&ei=pc2GUqqFE4a92wWkkYGAAw

Journeyman Geek

@allquixotic: XD

allquixotic

i shamelessly steal funny pictures and teach them to cavil

this is what i do

Journeyman Geek

its also very useful ;p

Hennes

What insanity is a bunny with a pancake on her head? And why isn't she drinking from a saucer of coke?

Journeyman Geek

01:47

since I don't need to look it up

Ariane

@allquixotic Well the most common solution is to use POST rather than put stuff in the HTML body... but I mean, those variables are that I use Firefox and I use UTF-8 and stuff. Passing this URL info to someone else is actually counter-productive, because I'm betting the reason they pass that info into a variable is that it's important for their page display to give me the page in French and in UTF-8 and formatted for my broqwser because it's ME.

allquixotic

@Ariane the other query parameters are basically little details that give Google enough information to display the page exactly as you see it to someone else who clicks that URL; the only thing the URL does not provide is any way for them to log in as your Google account... that much is sent by a cookie, not in the URL

Ariane

@allquixotic Yeah I can figure that, but however is it remotely useful to give someone a link for Firefox if they use IE or Chrome? At best I don't see any use, at worst it could cause display issues.

And most importantly I have trouble believing that they didn't see that it's more of an inconvenience than anything else when you link something to someone and the link takes almost the whole Skype chat window. :/

allquixotic

@Ariane I guess they could theoretically stuff the browser and encoding variables into the HTTP body, but they don't want to make it so that users can only search by submitting a POST request, because any time you click someone's link you're issuing a GET request.... I suppose they could process the variables either in the URL string or in the HTTP body

but then, you'd end up with inconsistent results: see, a search from the google.com homepage where you click the button could very well plausibly issue a POST request, but when you execute the search function in every browser that I know of, it always submits a GET request, and the convention is that HTTP GET requests typically do not have a body

can a GET have a body? sure.... at a bitstream level nothing is preventing it... but the convention is for them to not

Journeyman Geek

heh.

I just took 5 attempts to remember to download a cd to test something....

Ariane

01:52

Eh. I dunno anything about deep stuff like that. I just don't like how it's deeply anti-ergonomic to put in the URL variables that the user doesn't need to know.

allquixotic

there may be some proxies or browser implementations or web server implementations that read "GET" as the HTTP method, and immediately upon realizing that fact, don't even attempt to read (resp. write) an HTTP body

if that were the case, you wouldn't be able to search properly without physically visiting google.com first then clicking the button

Ariane

Eh?

google.com/s=my-search&search_critera[...]

Uhm, but what I'm arguing is that there's little purpose in giving out UTF-8 and Mozilla:fr in GET.

eh it was /search?q=my-search but you get it.

allquixotic

OK -- Google wants to know your character encoding, your user agent, and some other thing ("ei") that I don't know what it is -- right? now, they can get this information in one of two ways: either in the URL query string, or in the HTTP body. now, if we assume that providing an HTTP body alongside a GET request is potentially problematic, then it stands to reason that we have to use POST. however, browser search helper implementations for IE, FF and Chrome all use GET. Do you see the issue?

so it's either (a) Google doesn't even attempt to solicit those extra parameters at all from your browser, or (b) they eliminate the ability to do searches from the search helper in the top-right in Firefox, or typing into the address bar in Chrome or IE

Ariane

You make it sound like you can't use GET and POST at the same time.

allquixotic

you can't -- not within the same HTTP request

if you are making one HTTP request, you must choose one method to supply with that request -- either GET or POST, but not both

you can of course interleave POSTs and GETs in separate requests, but this is one request we're talking about

because a search is fundamentally one request -- one URL click

Ariane

01:58

.... o.o I've always been doing it.
<form method="post" action="page.php?get_variable=something">
<input name="post_variable" value="something" />
<button type="submit">Submit</button>
</form>

...I'm guessing there's something I don't understand.

allquixotic

@Ariane that will submit one POST request when you click the submit button, with URL parameters -- but just because you have URL query parameters doesn't mean it's a GET request

Ariane

Eeeeeh. They show up in $_GET in PHP, so to the best of my knowledge it's GET? ._.

I mean, if I can do it, why can,t Firefox do it? Regardless of the deep background stuff.

allquixotic

the HTTP request method is specified at the start of the HTTP message at the transport layer; if the HTTP request were a plain text file, it'd look something like this:

GET /page.php?get_variable=something HTTP/1.1
Cookie: something=value
User-Agent: something
Other-Headers: etc.

//the http body, which can be anything

see that "GET" at the start? that is either GET or POST; but you can't say, for example, "GET|POST" or "GET AND POST" or something like that

the problem I was referring to earlier is that some software might already be coded so that, as soon as it reads that "GET", it stops reading the request after the newline after the HTTP headers, and doesn't even attempt to process the body

Ariane

Yush, but why not POST then? Everyone reads the content of POST and its URL too, right?

allquixotic

so if you don't want to risk breaking that software, you can't put a body with a GET request, so then you'd have to use a POST -- but, based on the way that browsers are currently implemented, the search function does GET, not POST.

@Ariane Right. Everything will indeed read both the query string and the HTTP body of a POST. But the problem is still getting existing software to submit POSTs when for years it's been written to GET.

They'd have to submit a bug report to Mozilla, and Microsoft, and Opera, and Apple, and Chrome, and say "Google search is changing to POST, you'll need to patch your code"

and then people with old browsers are SOL

Ariane

02:04

Well there's always the option of handling both kinds of requests. But Google is so centered on speed I'm guessing they wouldn't want that. I mean, look at the source of the Google main page. x.x A nightmare.

allquixotic

Google is pushing HTTP/2 anyway, which will change a lot of things about the foundations of how the web works

they already have something approximating it called SPDY, but HTTP/2 may end up being either very similar or quite different to SPDY

Ariane

I don't know what HTTP/2 or SPDY are. :/

Ry Jones

@Ariane SPDY is... speedy

they also have QUIC: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QUIC

allquixotic

HTTP 2.0 is the next version of the HTTP protocol... it's currently in the middle of being standardized, so you can't go out and learn how to use HTTP 2.0 today

the term is really meaningless until the specification is finalized

Braiam

If I'm not mistaken HTTP2 is a copycat, not pun intended, of SPDY...

allquixotic

02:06

because a lot can change

@Braiam the draft they chose to start with as a baseline is a copy of SPDY.

but they have more than a year to tweak it

HTTP 2.0 isn't due to be finalized until some time in 2015

Braiam

@allquixotic eww... a standard baked and served in less than a year... ewww

allquixotic

@Braiam well, SPDY is already pretty mature, so it's not like it's totally new and untested; that said, they could still end up changing it so that it's not compatible with SPDY

Ariane

@allquixotic Wait what? HTTP 4 became outdated long ago because of XHTML 1, and then HTML 5. What's up with those messed-up version numbers?

allquixotic

@Ariane you're confusing HTTP (aitch-tee-tee-pee) with HTML (aitch-tee-em-ell)

Braiam

@Ariane thats HTML

Ariane

02:08

LOL

Journeyman Geek

http is the transport layer

er, no actually

its the protocol layer

Braiam

@allquixotic read that aloud... if you can! D:

Ariane

I DID have a tiresome day, apparently. Don't mind the retard.

Journeyman Geek

HTML, XHTML and HTML5 are presentation layers.

Braiam

@JourneymanGeek trasport layer is TCP...

heck it could be a transponder and everyone will be still in awe how it works...

Journeyman Geek

02:09

@Braiam: I have the attention span of a squirrel in a nut-shop today, so forgive me

allquixotic

I do web application security testing at work, so I pretty much stare at HTTP requests and responses all day (some days...) -- I'd say I work at least as much at the HTTP layer as I do at the HTML layer.

Braiam

don't worry, I didn't took my pills today... nor yesterday....mmm I wonder if this month I have took any...

allquixotic

trying to break or confuse the web server by injecting bad data, etc

Ariane

Hey. While we're on all that stuff... Does someone know of a good article of pros and cons of image sprites? A recent one? The most recent one I found was from 2010 and already it was mentioning that with how fast Internet speeds are increasing the benefits of image sprites might be irrelevant in the near future.

Ry Jones

@Ariane it isn't just your bandwidth that matters for sprites, it's your render engine

allquixotic

02:12

o_O

mewlers, wooves, chirples and squeaks!

most of us belong there, actually. cmon @JourneymanGeek let's go home to pets.SE

Moses

@gibberish My company recently signed on with Paycor, and they had a decent selection of biometric timeclock solutions.

Ariane

@RyJones Uhm, I dunno about that deeper stuff. That's why I,d like it if I could see a recent, smart article that'd explain it to me so I can take a good decision. Because it's gonna take a lot of convincing to make me reduce the understandable-ness (yes! I decided it's a word) and usability of my code. And so far all I see is either pretty old or someone hammering that performance is everything, and that while I'm at it I should serve people one-line minified code.

I was really against them, and then today someone gave some good arguments for them, which made me want to know more, and I can't really find something good.

Ry Jones

@Ariane so write it both ways and test it on your own in a scenario you write. then you'll know.

Braiam

ripping for 6 hours a DVD in a single core... what times do I live?

Ariane

@RyJones But I want arguments and explanations. I don't consider myself knowledgeable enough to be able to see and judge the whole problem properly by myself.

Journeyman Geek

02:17

@Braiam: the past.

Ry Jones

@Ariane then you can't judge the arguments.

Braiam

ETA 45 mins...

Ariane

@RyJones Eh. Where are you fishing this from? A good article will of course explain all that properly.

Ry Jones

@Ariane fishing what from? it's first principles. sprites solve one set of problems and introduce others.

you need to decide what problem you have then figure out how to solve it.

Ariane

@RyJones What I need to know is exactly what problems and benefits sprites bring and in what amount they bring them. And I'm not a programmer-analyst to be able to figure that out.

Ry Jones

02:21

@Ariane then you're the wrong person to make that decision.

Jimmy Hoffa

@allquixotic I had a question on there just today...

Ariane

@RyJones Fcourse not, I'm the integrator. I'm the one who's gonna do the whole front-end. I'm certainly not going to gulp in someone else's decision just because I couldn't find the information.

Ry Jones

@Ariane what is the exact problem you're trying to solve?

Ariane

There's none in particular. I'm trying to make myself a more knowledgeable opinion on sprites so that whether I choose to use them or not I know what I'm doing and why. Because in just a few months I'm gonna start integrating my first real client site for our final school project and it's pretty important to know what I'm doing in that kind of context.

allquixotic

@Ariane This page cites the obvious benefits of sprites, but it doesn't detail the possible drawbacks... so, while the benefits might be correct, you should also research what the drawbacks are... once you know what are considered to be the most common pros and cons, you might start to develop an opinion for yourself

Ariane

02:26

Oh by the way. What we call integration is HTML and CSS, minor design (although I just so happen to be the main designer on this project, too), minor PHP (basically calling the functions and using the variables that the programmer has done).

Ry Jones

@Ariane ah, school, just ask your teacher what they want you to use.

Journeyman Geek

lol

^ that

allquixotic

also consider that things like HTTP pipelining and keepalive reduce significantly the overhead of an HTTP request to a server you are already connected to

Journeyman Geek

and then use something else anyway if that seems stupid ;p

Jimmy Hoffa

3

Q: Do Boxers have a tendency towards Cherry-eye and gland-expression issues?

My question is just what's in the title. I was under the impression that Boxers were one of the type of dogs that have that gland near their anus that can cause them serious discomfort, as well as frequently getting Cherry Eye. Also, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is ...

allquixotic

02:27

which means that sprites are less useful than in the days when HTTP pipelining and keepalive weren't common

Ry Jones

@allquixotic you should consider mobile scenarios as well when deciding if you're using sprites or not.

allquixotic

@RyJones this is the first I've heard of image sprites (I'm a programmer, not a webdev), so maybe I can learn something here, too -- is it the case that you have to download the entire image sprite file before rendering can begin; or, can the decoder start to work on an image-within-the-sprite while still downloading the rest?

Ariane

@RyJones The teachers are... slightly outdated. We tend to know more than they do on some more recent things. For example the teacher who taught us mobile Web (but let's be indulgent, it's the very first year the school is teaching that specific class and he's learning at the same time as we do), for his responsive CSS, copied the whole stylesheet 4 times at set break-points in media queries (conventional tablet, smartphone, etc. resolution) and then edited it.

Jimmy Hoffa

@allquixotic ...because dogs have a gland near their anus...

@allquixotic and it hurts them a lot sometimes...

@allquixotic And I just thought you would like to hear about it.

Happy weekend!

allquixotic

@JimmyHoffa I already knew about that

Jimmy Hoffa

02:29

@allquixotic yeah, but you weren't thinking about it until now

I'm helping!

Ry Jones

@JimmyHoffa it's all I think about all day, broseph. I have a poster of it over my cube.

Jimmy Hoffa

@RyJones wow, your HR must be super lax

Ry Jones

@JimmyHoffa I tell them it's a picture from NASA

Ariane

And there's this other teacher who scolds us for not commenting our CSS even though it's pre-compiled LESS which makes perfect sense without comments in the source code and still isn't too messed up after compiling.

Hennes

I can not resist this:

Ry Jones

02:31

@Ariane so write in the form your teachers want to see

Hennes

less is more, more or less, except for most.

Ariane

The whole school program is undergoing a big process of updating. Our programming teacher is slowly learning OOP and trying to integrate it, and all... For that I wish I were born maybe 5 years later.

Ry Jones

even if it sucks, and is stupid

Ariane

@RyJones What I mean is, they don't know. They're fine with everything decent. Even CSS that has a whole CSS rule on one line.

Ry Jones

@allquixotic I don't know about partial rendering of sprites. I do know that we rendered everything as a 1px tall sprite that you'd seek into and fill from and it was faster than the usual "render the UI elements as recognizable glyphs" mode

Jimmy Hoffa

02:34

@Ariane Who cares what your teacher scolds you for? I've seen enough green faces to know every CS grad is retarded and can hardly write a program without drooling on the keyboard. What your teachers gripe at you about regarding style can safely be chalked up to irellevant as you'll find when you enter the workforce and realize you are totally unprepared. Unless you're going to like MIT/Berkeley/Cornell/Stanford etc.

Ariane

@JimmyHoffa I don't really care all that much. I was mostly using those as images to illustrate how I can't really rely on them for the more in-depth stuff.

Ry Jones

@JimmyHoffa yeah, gonna disagree with everything after the Unless

@Ariane your goal should be to learn as much as possible by doing it. what is taught in class is incidental to your learning.

2

Jimmy Hoffa

Not that you aren't learning useful valuable stuff, but style is not what you're learning that's useful or valuable. General mechanics of turing machines and the chompsky hierarchy, determining decidability and automata et al, these are useful things you're learning. Though you won't realize it until you've been in the industry for 5 years at least, before then we won't trust you to use those bits of your knowledge one bit because you'll be missing all the tool knowledge necessary to use it

Ariane

@RyJones Uhm, I guess. Not sure why you're saying this all of a sudden though.

@JimmyHoffa Lol I have no idea what those things I'm supposed to be learning are.

Ry Jones

@Ariane do you do any web stuff on your own, outside of class?

Jimmy Hoffa

02:39

@RyJones Iduno, I just tossed the disclaimer so nobody tried to use those edge cases, and rare as they are I do believe in them sometimes: Look at spolsky, fresh out of Yale to design what is still the foundation of office extensibility, or Yegge. Occasionally people are geniuses fresh out of college though it's unlikely the school caused that, they probably only went to those schools because they were geniuses already

Ry Jones

@JimmyHoffa sure, there are outliers everywhere.

Ariane

@RyJones Not really. Well homework is theoretically outside class, but that's beside the point. For one school is taking more than enough of my energy already (actually I failed my easiest class and pushed graduation a year forward because I was absent too often due to exhaustion - this is a REALLY intense school term), and... well no there's nothing else.

Though I'd say that I tend to learn more than most in my class, because I push further than the others in class projects.

Often it's a disadvantage though. Like, when working on my portfolio, I spent 6 or 9 hours trying various techniques to get my SVG images to render everywhere, to discover that it's impossible. For one the purpose was doubtful and I ended up being super late on the portfolio project because of that, haha, ha ha. Ha. Joys of perfectionism.

Psycogeek

Now thats an AI i.sstatic.net/0Af1N.jpg

allquixotic

@Psycogeek um

Jimmy Hoffa

66

A: Do we set the bar too high by requiring that code tests not suffer from buffer overflow?

I think the junior qualifier is what makes all the difference here. Juniors shouldn't be tested for competence, they should be tested for learning ability, curiosity, passion, ethic, and definitely humility. The assumption with a junior should be that they are not competent, it's your job as the ...

@allquixotic got any of these:

allquixotic

02:55

@JimmyHoffa Scribblenauts Unlimited and SR3

Ariane

@JimmyHoffa That's rather shocking. They told us we needed to be independent and that other workers wouldn't have time or care to babysit us.

Jimmy Hoffa

@allquixotic Wanna join me for a game of SR3?

@Ariane It depends where you get picked up, if you end up somewhere decent they won't babysit you, they will train you, if you end up somewhere bad they will let you loose and the codebase will be a terror. I worked one place that exclusively hired fresh grads it's entire tenure, after 20 years they decided maybe that's no so good and hired me and 3 other seniors to be like "Uh maybe some folks with industry experience can help?" - nah, it was so bad we were all gone within a year.

Ariane

Lol, sounds awful. But the ones who told us that were people supposedly with experience. Maybe it's a lot different for programmers?

Jimmy Hoffa

People there who'd been professional programmers for 10+ years but didn't know anything at all because fresh out of school they went there, where there was no one to mentor them in good design and practice, so their 10 years was really their first year 10 times

allquixotic

@JimmyHoffa I would, but I don't have it installed; I had it installed but it got corrupted during transfer from my other disk I think; big download to get it running again... and I've already played and beat SR:IV, which is better in every way, so if I had to play Saints Row I'd play IV (because I'm not totally bored of it yet)

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