Root Access

Psycogeek

01:30

In order to calculate 33.55 million
digits of PI, it takes within 3 days with Pentium 90MHz, 40MB main memory and
340MB available storage. Today it took 7 seconds .

allquixotic

02:48

@Bob Unfortunately, even if I were a direct employee of the government, I would probably be contractually obliged not to share any of my work, since it's considered sensitive. So I wouldn't be able to, say, share source code. I've seen official Government source code, and it has a very restrictive license header in each source file.

@JakeGould It's less about derision, and more about the fact that you traipsed into Super User expecting it to be exactly the same as Stack Overflow, and when we informed you that as far as we are aware it is not (and, indeed, is not required to be), you pitched a fit. I deride your reaction and your persistent rants against me, but I don't deride your opinion. You're entitled to whatever opinion you want, but having that opinion doesn't mean we all have to obey your wishes, either.

Every site I've been to on the network has had significantly different policies and behavior regarding various aspects of policy. That's why each site has a meta, rather than there just being one central meta to handle all policy-related issues on the network. If you want to poll the community and try to change the status quo, I think you'll have a good chance of doing that as long as you stay constructive, and I welcome the discussion and think it would be positive.

We would have gotten off on a much better start if you had come to Super User without assuming so much about our norms and guidelines. It really would have been a completely different discussion if you didn't react as negatively as you did. I'm sorry that it has come to having such a bitter attitude towards me and to some degree one of our moderators, since this is not at all what slhck and myself are trying to do. I have no idea what you're on about with the "l33t community" thing.

Journeyman Geek

Morning.

allquixotic

morning or whatever time it is; I lost track because I slept for hours

Journeyman Geek

lol

Its morning here

YTZMV!

allquixotic

never seen that acronym before o_O

ohhhhhh

your time zone may vary lol

Journeyman Geek

hm. I need a copy of that old what is SE venn diagram

allquixotic

03:01

actually, someone had posted that just the other day

it may have been AJ or Mokubai

Journeyman Geek

oh, found a copy

Going to try to post a definitive, citation filled answer for the editing 'debate'

Bob

@JourneymanGeek It's 2pm here

Journeyman Geek

blog.stackoverflow.com/2009/04/in-defense-of-editing seems nice.

Bob

I haven't slept since yesterday

HackToHell

!! bobsleep

ChatBot John Cavil

03:05

@HackToHell That didn't make much sense. Use the !!/help command to learn more.

HackToHell

!! commands

ChatBot John Cavil

@HackToHell Information on interacting with me can be found at this page

@HackToHell That didn't make much sense. Use the !!/help command to learn more.

allquixotic

!!tell Bob sleep

ChatBot John Cavil

@allquixotic Command sleep does not exist. (note that /tell works on commands, it's not an echo.)

HackToHell

I forgot how to use this bot

allquixotic

03:06

@JourneymanGeek sounds like you'll have to ask a question then

Bob

@HackToHell Too much tea

(also, got stuff to do)

(also, I might as well fix my sleep cycles by actually sleeping at night)

DemCodeLines

And I'm back with my old question

Bob

unfortunately, that means I won't be able to ~~catch~~ stalk @allquixotic as much :\

DemCodeLines

What are some good tech gadgets under $300 that I can gift to my dad?

Journeyman Geek

@allquixotic: going to slightly hijack the rollback one

Bob

03:08

@DemCodeLines that very much depends on what kind of person he is

@JourneymanGeek ...which was deleted per the request of the author

Journeyman Geek

@Bob: not that one, was meaning this meta.superuser.com/questions/8602/…

allquixotic

@Bob that's alright. we can still talk asynchronously through pings

Bob

and, reading that blog post, it sounds pretty much like what @AJHenderson and I were getting at

allquixotic

I'll probably see you when I first get to work in the morning, too

Bob

summing up, edits are fine, but original author gets final say if they want to reject it

DemCodeLines

03:09

Well he is in the IT industry, worked with computer stuff for a long time. Could assemble a computer in front of me. He's definitely into tech

Bob

@DemCodeLines so, nothing too gimmicky... probably nothing too locked-down either

allquixotic

@DemCodeLines does he like "new" mobile tech, or is he more set in his ways? is he more of a desktop guy or does he like tablets and smartphones?

DemCodeLines

I was about to go for Moto 360, but it's locked down to android and not cross-platform

Bob

@DemCodeLines watches have fairly limited use

also, cross-platform smartwatches aren't gonna be a thing until there's something like a universal bluetooth profile for them (is there?)

allquixotic

mobile tech isn't tinkerable in most cases, so maybe he wouldn't like that. sure, you can install stuff on it, but you can't take it apart (easily / with low risk)

Bob

03:11

I believe their protocols are all proprietary at the moment

Journeyman Geek

meh, You're right ;p

DemCodeLines

He is open. He is not set in his ways where he can't change himself

Journeyman Geek

I'll just keep these in mind for the next time this comes up

allquixotic

@Bob well there's this

Bob

@allquixotic No Firefox OS, booooo

DemCodeLines

03:12

IPad and Surface are too expensive. iWatch doesn't come until later in 2015

Bob

Android tablet? Is he into audio?

Maybe one of those smarttv adapter things?

NUC?

DemCodeLines

He's got a Galaxy right now. I doubt he'd want an android tablet.

Bob

Gift card/money?

Promise for future gift, redeemable when he wants?

allquixotic

NUC could be cool if he doesn't have any Haswell processors

DemCodeLines

I considered going for a headphone, the Bose Quietcomfort 25's, but they're expensive like crazy

Journeyman Geek

03:15

@allquixotic: the celeron nuc is an awesome toy ;p

I could see sticking one of these on a TV and using it as a media center/streaning gaming box

allquixotic

@Bob Taking a step back from my own opinion and involvement in this, it would appear that slhck did exactly the opposite. The OP wanted it reverted but he locked the post. (Note: I had no involvement in editing or reviewing the answers in question.) If we're going to take that blog post as the canonical, last word on this subject, then isn't slhck technically in the wrong?

(Not that I think that he is in the wrong, but I'm just asking the question to see how you respond.)

Bob

@allquixotic If we take the blog post as word of god, then, yes, reverting author's rollback would be going against it.

We can deviate from the blog post, but I don't believe there's existing discussion on the subject.

You already know what my opinion is, and I know yours.

allquixotic

@Bob Then maybe we have been flying on autopilot when we need to actually have a larger percentage of our community weigh in. I'm feeling a featured coming on.

I wish @JourneymanGeek hadn't abandoned his desire to write it up. :/

Bob

@allquixotic Well, it would have to be written up as a new Q/A, not a response to an existing minor Q

allquixotic

@Bob Yeah, we need to remove any reference to specific questions or answers and make it a generic thing...

Get the whole process moving and hope that people will see it on the mainsite and click through.

JakeGould

03:23

@allquixotic Happy there is some healthy discussion here, but for the record when I say l33t attitude it means a certain type of tech-world entitlement that fosters obnoxious behavior. Also, your point about slhck locking posts to prevent editing is so stunningly obvious to hypocrisy it’s a clarifying moment right now. Also, pointing to a blog post or pointing out that SuperUser is not like other Stack Exchange sites is pedantic & will not inspire anything but derision towards the concepts.

Psycogeek

@DemCodeLines could you ask his wife/girlfriend? nobody knows (or assumes to ) more about what a father wants then mother,

Bob

@JakeGould Usually site rules are defined primarily by site meta, followed by network meta, followed by SE blog posts.

allquixotic

@JakeGould Well, even if there is some truth to the fact that there's some leet attitude here, I'm all for changing it. I don't want things to even be perceived as having that kind of "consensus from authority" mentality in this community, and if that's happening, we need to address it. We just have to work through the discussion with the larger community and see what the opinions out there really are.

I don't want to have a l33t attitude and I don't want that to be what defines this community. We need to establish what the consensus is.

Seems we haven't done that. We've been flying blind. And that sucks.

Bob

What this means is site meta can override network meta decisions, etc..

(Of course, the SE team can put their foot down on any topic - but they have not done so here, AFAIK)

allquixotic

@Bob Yes. Site meta can override network meta and blogs, but we haven't properly established this on our site meta. It's a glaring omission.

I'm pretty sure the SE team would give us leeway with this, irrespective of how the consensus ends up being built.

Bob

03:26

@allquixotic That pretty much means we revert to following network/blog rules until we establish site-local rules.

There might be some implied consensus, but it's better to be explicit.

allquixotic

@Bob Completely agree.

@JourneymanGeek Are you up for it, pup? I think you're probably the best qualified to write it up, since you've been hands off on this from the get-go.

Bob

So... anyone want to set up the meta Q? :P

Though I won't have time to respond to it for a bit.

Pretty much need a Q on how substantial edits are allowed to be, and we have at least two As here.

DemCodeLines

@Psycogeek my mom says that my dad would be happy with whatever I gift him. According to her, it's the willingness to gift him which makes him happy more than the actual gift itself.

Bob

(I'd also recommend keeping the As concise as possible to make it easier on people passing by/voting. This topic shouldn't require extended explanations... hopefully.)

allquixotic

I think the other matter that needs to be discussed is whether the author of the post should have the last word on whether the edits are allowed, or whether the diamond moderators' overriding them is OK. In other words, when it comes to non-diamond moderators editing, the OP always has the last word. But when it comes to diamond moderators intervening, is that OK?

It may be a separate discussion entirely, to be honest. Separate from the substantiality discussion.

Bob

03:29

Hm.

@allquixotic To be honest, I'm more interested in that discussion.

allquixotic

@Bob In the one I just posted, or the one about substantiality?

Bob

@allquixotic The one you just posted.

Psycogeek

@DemCodeLines well then your all set with a tie, and leftover money to get whatever YOU want :-) course maybey there wasnt much "thought that counts" in that :-)

allquixotic

The question just needs to be asked. I think it would be really cool if someone like Shog9 could provide an answer.

But we also need to see what regular users think.

Journeyman Geek

@allquixotic: actually this is covered in depth in meta and help pages

Bob

03:31

@JourneymanGeek Linky?

Journeyman Geek

I'd start here blog.stackoverflow.com/2009/04/in-defense-of-editing

allquixotic

6 mins ago, by Bob

What this means is site meta can override network meta decisions, etc..

Journeyman Geek

then go blog.stackoverflow.com/2009/04/in-defense-of-editing here

Bob

7 mins ago, by Bob

@JakeGould Usually site rules are defined primarily by site meta, followed by network meta, followed by SE blog posts.

Journeyman Geek

Ok, not meta, the blog

Bob

03:33

For example, some sites are more lenient towards shopping-type questions. (and then there's always exceptions to the exceptions to the exceptions...)

Psycogeek

@DemCodeLines when techy , and you already got all the computer junk, there is LED junk? does he have led flashlights yet?

Bob

Unless the SE team comes along and says we must follow X.

allquixotic

If blog posts are indeed the word of God, I'm actually fine with being told from on-high, "Look, if we say something in the blog, this will become the established norm across the site, so please don't try to deviate from this policy on individual sites." -- If they said something like that, I'd go so far as to say that we shouldn't even be having this discussion.

Otherwise, the discussion is worth having, even if the consensus is to do what the blog says.

Journeyman Geek

Oh, I haven't abandoned the desire, I felt that that question I was going to answer wasn't the appropriate forum for it

Bob

@allquixotic nods

Journeyman Geek

03:34

It is clear to me the networkwide intent is to encourage precisely the sort of edits mentioned in the rollback question.

HackToHell

@Bob Nothing seems to keep me awake

Bob

@JourneymanGeek I'm more interested in the rollback/author-power side of things.

@HackToHell Try 5 cups of tea.

HackToHell

I tried tea/coffee/red bull

Journeyman Geek

I think

I'd add, in general, unless its outright vandalism, rolling back edits is considered somewhat bad form. Specifically in this case, I tend to think the edits improve the answer. While its your answer, the 'wiki-like'- aspect of SE, where others can improve your answer is by design. As long as it fixes something or improves readability, please let it be. — Journeyman Geek ♦ 19 hours ago

allquixotic

@JourneymanGeek But the problem is when the exact type of edit desired is precisely the type of edit that got rolled back by the author. Honestly, it's really about whether we're giving authors some kind of privilege or power. I think Jeff Atwood pretty clearly said that he thinks they should, primarily to avoid conflicts and flame wars. But I don't think that opinion is held universally by contributors to SU. I'd like to see how the votes pan out.

Psycogeek

03:36

@DemCodeLines if you got good desktops there is always things you can upgrade, even the older people of the world might like a Way freaking better monitor to view said computer? Or (going blind) a way bigger one.

Journeyman Geek

Well, we're on the same side here, in the end but

Editing is important for keeping questions and answers clear, relevant, and up-to-date. If you are not comfortable with the idea of your contributions being collaboratively edited by other trusted users, this may not be the site for you.

allquixotic

It's like "what happens when you put a piece of toast jelly-side up on the back of a cat?"

Journeyman Geek

Makes it perfectly clear where we should be standing.

allquixotic

What happens when you pit an ideal edit against the wishes of the author?

Does the cat-toast body spin endlessly in mid-air?

Or if not, who wins?

Journeyman Geek

A mature author would just allow it.

allquixotic

03:38

@JourneymanGeek That's been quoted many times, but it seems to fly in the face of the last paragraph before the indentation change on the "In defense of editing" article.

@JourneymanGeek And what if the author decides not to allow it? Do you let the author win? Do you lock the post so the OP's wishes are not respected? What do you do? That is the matter that needs to be discussed. We can easily decide what to do in the ordinary case, but in the edge case, we have no official policy or consensus.

DemCodeLines

Im thinking of grabbing a surface pro 2 for him if I find it at a good price

Psycogeek

@DemCodeLines sounds good, even if he didnt like it or want it or need it, dads always have to "figure shit out" so its good for a month :-)

allquixotic

I'm not sure it's even a matter of maturity. The author may have whatever reason for not wanting to allow the edit. Really, any reason at all is reason enough to consider what action we should take as a matter of policy.

But we have no policy, so we're back to square one. For now. Until we establish consensus.

DemCodeLines

It starts at $450... :|

JakeGould

@allquixotic Happy to actually see a healthy discussion here. As far as allowing the original poster final say, the repeated dead-horse trotted out is that quality of the accepted answer trumps original poster desires. Which is bizarre to me. If someone posts an answer that works, is up voted & is accepted it automatically implies quality. Yes, there are some real mouth-breathers out there who get crappy answers up voted, but not me. I go out of my way to be clear & concise.

@allquixotic And the relative speed those edits appeared were just stunning. I would be honored for my answers to be canon on a subject, but the idea they are treated as canonical immediately on acceptance without going to “Community Wiki” is bizarre to me.

HackToHell

03:44

@Bob 5 0_o

Journeyman Geek

@JakeGould: Well, I often handle suggested edits to my question.

CW is for VERY special cases. All of se is wiki-like

Psycogeek

Editing post is pretty Obvious, even in the TOUR superuser.com/tour you can see that comming a mile away a Few mods and an edit button on every page, its like a Pat movie, you know they going to get it :-)

Journeyman Geek

Heck, we had this in the old about pages for years

Its also officially a major differenciating factor blog.stackoverflow.com/2009/04/in-defense-of-editing

Bob

@JakeGould CW is more considered a mistake these days. They don't think it should have been introduced in the first place.

allquixotic

@JakeGould It's an interesting point to consider, honestly, when you bring Community Wiki into it -- I suppose you could argue that if we try and impose Wikipedia-like curation onto ordinary Q&A (non-CW), then the point of CW becomes moot? In which case, we should treat ordinary Q&A differently, so that CW has a reason to exist? I kind of follow... as long as we then use CW whenever it's important to do so. I feel like CW, unfortunately does not get used enough :(

JakeGould

03:46

@allquixotic Also, another argument made was someone posting another similar answer to a question that already has an accepted answer would be ignored is just completely wrong. I have done tons of searches for useful answers across Stack Exchange & I often find that answers left after the fact—sometimes months or years—can be more helpful than the accepted answers.

@allquixotic Meaning the idea that one can corral all good ideas into one “host answer” seems inherently futile & alienating.

Bob

@JourneymanGeek It's still there.

Journeyman Geek

@Bob: cue complaints about new help page making stuff harder to find ;p

Bob

@JourneymanGeek up up down down left right left right b a enter

Journeyman Geek

enter? on a console?

Bob

@JourneymanGeek no, on the about page :P

Journeyman Geek

03:48

ahh

JakeGould

@allquixotic I don’t think “Community Wiki” is perfect, but all I am saying is that for one’s accepted answer to be treated as an editing free for all without the original poster having any say and—in my case—having a moderator lock the most sends a clear message, “Thanks for posting an answer! It’s so good your voice is no longer needed & if you complain you are making things worse.”

Bob

try it :D

allquixotic

@JakeGould That is a bit of an extreme position that I'm not trying to advocate anymore, after thinking about it for a while. I am not sure that even slhck is in favor of that. It's not that we want to corral all good ideas into one answer, just that any post which can be improved, should be, if someone is taking the time to contribute. It's sort of a simple, pragmatic conditional: IF user X contributes positively, THEN accept edit

Psycogeek

@JakeGould In-so-much that many accepted answers suck :-) and already are written on the web 101 times of anyone needed "the Book" . More is better, when you cant find a solution. Also computers and programs are not socks, one size does not fit all.

Bob

Hm.

Relevant:

Journeyman Geek

03:50

@JakeGould: I think the question people ask themselves is 'does this make my answer better?'

Bob

25

Q: Promote the "collaborative"/ "wiki" style aspect of Stack Exchange more

Stack Exchange is not completely lacking in wiki features. We have "Community Wiki" posts. We have "tag wikis", we have collaborative editing. However, for some reason none of these uncover the true wiki power IMO. I want to see Stack Exchange littered with canonial answers. Answers which are th...

allquixotic

Of course, in the case of no edits ever coming, there's no need to look at a list of 5 answers and think, "Oh! I should now edit the best answer to contain all the ideas of the other answers!" -- I certainly wouldn't advocate that.

Journeyman Geek

And I've actually had a similar argument with Jeff Atwood in the past ;p

Bob

There's some counterpoints in the responses to that request.

@allquixotic Actually, I distinctly remember advice in a previous meta post saying it's acceptable to create a new answer merging existing answers :\ (not editing existing though)

JakeGould

@Psycogeek Agreed. And when I edit a post, I edit for clarity & formatting. And never touch content to change commands or configs. If I have a suggestion, I will post one. And if the suggestion is valid, I will change the answer. But in my specific case the “reward” of me posting correct answer was actually punishment towards my work.

allquixotic

03:51

@Bob Ah. In that case, you're posting a new answer, which is okay. I think that's very uncontroversial.

Journeyman Geek

superuser.com/posts/366221/revisions very interesting edit history there

allquixotic

But editing someone else's is controversial.

Bob

@JourneymanGeek Heh. One of those technically 'bad' questions that's popular (= good)

Journeyman Geek

@JakeGould: I don't mean this personally but "But in my specific case the “reward” of me posting correct answer was actually punishment towards my work." That attitude may be part of the overall issue

JakeGould

@Psycogeek I understand posts are up for edits. But there is something one cannot program against. And that is realizing that this is a site in which humans contribute & should not be seen as a nuisance but rather a resource.

allquixotic

03:53

@JourneymanGeek Funny, sounds like Atwood went against his own policy there -- kind of puzzling

Journeyman Geek

Its not punishment. Its basically "I see this answer, I know this tool, How can I make this better?"

And an different answer using the same tool might not be distinctive enough

JakeGould

@JourneymanGeek Sadly you have a system that rewards & attributes. And how does it work when someone has words put in their mouth/answer they did not speak/type?

Journeyman Geek

Its not what I would have done, but I can't see the change being a seperate answer

(I'd have commented instead)

JakeGould

Anyways, I am done. Have fun chatting! I actually like this part of Stack Exchange the least.

Journeyman Geek

@JakeGould: Does it change your intent? No. Does it improve your answer? (that's up to you). Is it worth losing your temper over? Its the internet.

allquixotic

03:54

@JakeGould We'll probably write this up into a proper meta post and build consensus. We got off on the wrong foot, but I hope this develops into something positive.

Journeyman Geek

@allquixotic: I disagree with his edits, and made it clear in comments ;p

but at some point, meh ;p

Psycogeek

The only "rewards" are that people can figure shit out in todays pile of crap , and get things working and doing what they want. If'n were in this for points , then show me where they convert into bitcoins :-)

Bob

@allquixotic I know we don't have anything on the local meta, but I'm wondering if network meta has addressed this.

Journeyman Geek

Its the internet. No point losing my temper over it.

allquixotic

@Bob Either network meta, or meta.SO in a way that was supposed to be network-wide, but never got migrated to meta.SE in the great schism.

Bob

03:56

I'd consider network-consensus as much stronger than just a blog post, unless we really have a good reason to be different.

@allquixotic Didn't everything get migrated to SE?

allquixotic

@Bob No...?

Bob

o.O

HackToHell

fuck Indian banks isaumya.com/paypal-google-wallet-indian-debit-card-support

allquixotic

I think they ran some algorithm to determine whether stuff was network-wide or not.

And a lot of it was manual work.

Journeyman Geek

@HackToHell: I've had debit cards like that.

Bob

03:57

4

A: Do users have veto power over suggested edits to their post?

OPs do not have the ability to veto an edit once it has been accepted, but they do have the ability to rollback. As such, if an edit fundamentally changes the nature of what was written, they can rollback the revision. The downside, of course, is a reversion war - because a high rep user can rol...

That's a fairly minor one though.

HackToHell

@JourneymanGeek Currently only the debit card of 3 banks work :|

Bob

9

A: User keeps rollbacking correct edits

You step away from the question. Do not get into a rollback war, certainly not over a few formatting improvements. Post a comment instead, which you did. If there is a bigger problem (OP is destroying posts, repeated vandalism, etc.) you can flag the post for moderator attention. Moderators can ...

30

Q: How should disputes be handled on Stack Overflow?

Update: See Jeff Atwood's blog post: The Great Edit Wars. As well as the usual close wars we're all familiar with I'm aware that there have been several edit / rollback and tag wars recently, some have been over whether or not "Google it yourself" answers were acceptable, others over issues o...

discussion stackoverflow

allquixotic

Funny that it's about "Stack Overflow", yet it's on meta.SE now...

Kind of typical from the time period I guess

JakeGould

@JourneymanGeek “Is it worth losing your temper over? Its the internet.” Absolutely yes. Because I would like to think Stack Exchange sites are a tad more egalitarian. Also, the same mentality of “Its the internet.” then devalues the concept of curating content. I mean why care about answer quality, I mean it’s the Interwebs, right?

Bob

@allquixotic SE didn't even exist at that time, I think...

@allquixotic Hm, that Q seems to refer to a blog post as an 'official response'

this one

I have to say, I agree with that post, but it's also five years old now, and even at that time opinions differed.

allquixotic

04:09

@Bob And the author of that post does the opposite of what he says, since he edited a post, two others contributed good edits, and he rolled them back to his revision. I think the best way to avoid conflict in this case is to have unambiguous rules, but meta questions you linked to seem to suggest "don't worry about it; it never happens" or calling it "premature optimization" or something.

And I guess it's OK if one of the founders of SE decides to put his foot down, but it's not OK if a random guy does. Different rules for little people.

Psycogeek

If people are editing for Content , well that doesnt bode well with me. because if you have different content, then you have all kinds of places to put it. Its own competing question (or answer), a Comment providing more or different perspective.

Bob

@allquixotic Well, in early-SO days it was probably a tad premature.

Five years changes a lot.

allquixotic

@Bob And yet we're operating on a 5 year old "consensus" with 8 upvotes and/or the word of God from 2009?

Bob

@allquixotic Wait, the author of which post?

(I'm talking about the blog post. Not the meta Q)

allquixotic

Even if most people still feel the same way about it, it seems we should just ask the meta Q and establish what the consensus is today.

@Bob Atwood, the author of the blog post, did the opposite of what he suggests in his blog post.

"Don't have edit wars!"
*quietly participates in edit wars*

HackToHell

04:13

Thanks for reminding me why I hate meta.

allquixotic

@HackToHell NP.

Bob

@allquixotic I'm a bit wary of calling that one a war.

Single revert vs multiple reverts

Even then, I'm again more interested in how much power the author has over the post, as opposed to an edit war between two editors independent from the author.

allquixotic

@Bob It didn't become a war mainly because JMG and Atwood ended up discussing it at length in comments, apparently.

JMG could've, of course, rolled it back again, which would have escalated matters, but JMG did a good thing by talking about it instead.

Bob

@allquixotic Ah. Didn't check the comments.

So maybe a bit of a case of do as I say, not as I do

Journeyman Geek

@allquixotic: Yeah, pretty much

And I think that's a good use of comments ;p

Psycogeek

04:22

@allquixotic that one got "randomised" i think random is a machine the seeks out human feelings and discards them as irrelevent :-)

It "had to" be edited at that point , to exist on the site as a question.

In my mind the question itself would have been a perfect place for a 5 paragraph description of the different keys as they relate to "humans" and be done with it.

Further analisis suggests that the answeree (whome ever that was :-) choose to redraw the target after the question was asked, to fit the large ammount of effort put into the question. With the target redrawn the arrow (answer) hits the bullseye.

final results a wiki, that was written (prior under cherry) about 2 years before :-) en.wikipedia.org/w/…

HackToHell

05:20

kentonv.github.io/capnproto

Apparently it's better than protobuf

I didn't really read through

The site make my eyes hurt

Psycogeek

05:42

argg, I dont care what anybody says, Putting the URL behind a single word , is more "trouble" to check that the URL points correct prior to using it :-( I still think it Obscures links. This isnt AdWords Or WordSence , where the point is to get people to click on stuff they do not know what it is.

Does it hurt anybody to see Whole full links , and know upfront where they are going, or if spam or some manner of evil has been put back there?

I am not clicking on any link without seeing where it goes first, so all this organisation to stuff them behind a word just means i have to stop read the status bar for the actual location, before going. so more trouble not less. The users would would blind click on anything , are we going to teach them to respond to [click me because your a dumbass] , which gets them in all sorts of trouble on the web, and deminishes the overall quality of the web with crap hidden links.

slhck

06:25

@allquixotic The way I see it, moderator usually shouldn't do much of anything, working in the background, cleaning up stuff, but when they intervene they should also be able to do that rather firmly. And if I see (undeniably positive and correct) contributions outright rejected for no apparent reason other than protecting one's post because the OP doesn't like to get their posts edited in general, then I will not accept that. Because it completely goes against our principles.

And I admit I value content more than anyone's individual "rights" to their post. Of course, every time someone edits one of my posts, I think, ooook, meh, I thought I had it all right, but if the edit is good, I can actually learn something from it.

I don't know if this discussion can really be brought down to a poll in order to agree on a policy that we can set in stone. Thing is: how often does this happen? How often do people really roll back edits that clearly improve a post? How often do they get so worked up about it that they bring it to Meta?

If people could at least just roll back, politely state a reason, and not make it a big deal… but pretending like everyone's harming your personal right to save the "integrity" of your contributions, that's a little overreacted IMO.

allquixotic

> Because it’s easy to pick on myself. :) I, Kenton Varda, was the primary author of Protocol Buffers version 2, which is the version that Google released open source. Cap’n Proto is the result of years of experience working on Protobufs, listening to user feedback, and thinking about how things could be done better.

Nice. So it's not a joke; it really is better than protobuf O_O

@slhck Twice in one week by two separate people, sooo...

The problem is, SU is growing; to understand what kinds of problems we'll have on SU in the future, all we have to do is look at StackOverflow. No need for a time machine; we can type a URL into our web browser and step into the future. On SO there's very much a strong culture about "poster's rights" that overrides any concerns about quality, and this policy at least minimizes drama and edit wars, because people just say "it's mine!", revert, and nobody ever challenges them. (or rarely)

If we take no action now, more than likely that sort of culture will develop here. If we want an alternative course for SU, we have to develop a consensus. We have to convince people.

The best thing we can do for our site now is to prepare for the next wave of contributors. And it's not premature optimization, because we already know what kinds of problems communities following the SE format encounter when they're an order of magnitude larger than SU is today. We just have to look at SO. That'll be us, if we don't do something.

slhck

06:47

@allquixotic Right, but before that… I can't remember ever having this discussion.

(or having had?)

@allquixotic Absolutely. It's what I really strongly dislike about SO.

HackToHell

@allquixotic Cool then!

slhck

I mean, code is always a different ball game.

HackToHell

It doesn't have a Go converter though

Hola @slhck LTNS

Wait there is a converter github.com/glycerine/go-capnproto

Meh I am not learning to use it

slhck

Certainly you wouldn't want to go ahead and complain if Jon Skeet edited your code, forcing him to post his own answer. Extreme example but it's exactly what went down here.

HackToHell

I already wrote it using ProtoBuf

allquixotic

06:50

@HackToHell maybe you should use Stop instead

slhck

@HackToHell Hey there. Yeah, been busy working, now: holidays :P

HackToHell

@allquixotic :P

@slhck Okay super busy mody

slhck

Honestly debating whether I should continue doing this.

I often just don't have the time to get involved in bigger discussions.

allquixotic

@slhck continue doing what? modding in general, or this discussion?

HackToHell

Probably the lame(don't kill me) discussion about edits

slhck

06:56

@allquixotic Modding in general. Not saying I'll give back the diamond, but taking a break or something.

Psycogeek

@allquixotic at SO , isnt there people who would be very tempted to edit a person "code" to make it better? Which constitutes content editing, changing what they said. I would think editing some old codgers learned code , for some youngsters Book code , could make for a knock down drag out :-) just because they each are on different wavelenghts.

allquixotic

@Psycogeek In Soviet Stack Overflow, answer edits YOU!

6

Psycogeek

@slhck even be it jon skeet , there is a space for him to make his own freaking answer. (and downvote and comment on how bad your codes is and all the places it will go wrong)

I would be happy for him to edit my code , after i got downvoted herassed laughed at and called a lamer :-) But to just waltz in and put words in my mouth, that goes against free speech and all. it is like the governement tell you what you can say, and all that kind of mental stresses.

Eidting grammer and spelling, and changing a post from arglish and chinglish to readable, is not changing the content. I am quick to approve a review which has improved what the user is trying to relate/say. I am slow to approve when they in-so-much as remove things like accolades, and on the fence when it comes to frustrations (sounds like rant).

I think most editing at SuperUser is intended to help, most of the time.

Psycogeek

07:30

slhck

@Psycogeek Um, there's no "free speech" on the Internet, really. I'd be happy for Jon Skeet to change my code. But I understand what you mean.

Psycogeek

from superuser.com/questions/821001/… . isnt that the Board connect thing shoved into a normal sata slot?

or do laptops have to have the hard drives soldered in :-)

@slhck in real life a person would speak to you first. All this technology and the web still doesnt even simulate a convo at a BBQ :-)

0

Q: What are the risks of regularily changing passwords?

I use password management software to store passwords for various online accounts. The program enables me to set "expiration" dates for the passwords and reminds me to change them after they've "expired" which I do religiously, in some cases as often as every 30 days. Some sites I use allow ver...

security passwords password-management

Me not remembering what they are or what they belong to :-)

I listed the passwords for the landlord on a document , because he forgets em , and it is amazing just how Many there are. He really does not "use" the web and has about 25 locations to have to log-in to.

Each location , just like software, thinks they are the only one that exists for people, when even non-geeks have a wide variety. so when each software takes 40 minutes to fix, each log-in takes 20 minutes to do, each piece of hardware takes 20 minutes to update, each security problem takes 45 minutes to read and understand, where the heck does life fit in :-)

So of course each location has a different password policy, 8charachter there, this one requires one #$@%! charachter, this one says you need a Capitol letter, and on and on, it isnt the changing of them, it is having to figure out all the acceptable use first.

Eventually you use up all them easy to remember , not on a hackers list, and then your to Sjg4aoWl8 (to weak please retry).

now who is going to remember that ? Well write it down, or store it in your computer, using special software. Get a big thanks from the hackers for consolidating :-)

rumtscho

09:20

Hi, I could use a quick sanity check, and I'm not sure it's good enough for the main page

A Friend of a friend seems to have caught some malware. It tells his browser that his proxy settings are wrong.

My friend will probably have to use antimalware to help.

Does this advice seem legit:

malwaretips.com/blogs/the-proxy-server-isnt-responding-removal

I've heard of most of the programs on it, and assume that they are real antimalware. But so they don't make the problem worse, I'd like a second opinion before recommending the guide.

Psycogeek

09:44

gads , do they know how to remove it or are they just guessing and hoping :-)

rumtscho

@Psycogeek I don't know what the people on this page know

But my friend is not very good with computers. The one-eyed among the blind.

So, if the first thing she tries doesn't work, I'd like her to have a second option. This is why I thought that maybe such a detailed tutorial, with several options, is good for her case.

Psycogeek

the page itself looks mostly legit as are the programs mentioned, hotlinks to downloads can go badly, but they do seem to point to real stuff, only ONE though pointing to some BS and . . . You just aquire the programs direct from the known source.

You can spot the "you have this problem" You use This to fix it,that are all just clones of the same pages, leading you to DL some Bullcrap that supposedly fixes anything, and usually makes stuff worse.

this one does not look like one of those.

I do not know enough about proxy, do you figure that some junk put in a proxy into the registry similar to how the Internet options would. then all traffic re-directs to where they wanted it to go? So you just toss it, and disable the use proxy and auto stuff in the Ioptions?

Myself i would apply hijackthis , because i know what to look for, and it is good with "browser and net" type hijacks. Then malware bytes free, because it is smaller and simple, and also finds virus items.

rumtscho

10:01

@Psycogeek I looked around, it seems that it is common for malware to either install itself as a proxy so it can inject ads and stuff, or to just misconfigure the machine to require a proxy when none is installed.

Psycogeek

If you have them running everything through thier computer, you would be owned pretty good without much other efforts :-)

rumtscho

I've never removed malware myself, I've been on Linux for some years and before that I guess I had luck and a good antivirus. Or maybe just a sense of false security.

Psycogeek

But if they are owned, then scanning for malware and virus is probably going to pop up other stuff.

rumtscho

@Psycogeek the question is, which scanner to trust. I just found a Wikipedia article saying that Malwarebytes can find the proxy problem, but not remove it.

Psycogeek

@rumtscho ohh, i see, it acts as an interceptor, not nessisarily requiring a server for the zombies, makes more sence than what i was thinking.

Journeyman Geek

10:08

hm, silly question, I have a pair of linux systems, I need to share storage between them - both need to be able to read and write to it. What should I be using, samba?

Bob

NFS, maybe?

Journeyman Geek

nfs is one way tho,right?

Bob

One way?

Psycogeek

Yea malware bytes does remove registry bad, but it leans more towards file based. hijackthis almost exclusivly shows the expert a load of registry locations that are critical, and the user must figure out what is right and wrong, and select for defaulting or deleting the items.

Journeyman Geek

(bigger picture - looking at replacing the seedbox with a vm. Its inefficient for me to set a permanent large disk image for it - so I figure I can save it directly to a shared directory of some flavour)

Bob

10:13

Why wouldn't NFS work here?

Does pretty much the same things as SMB, AFAIK.

Journeyman Geek

for some reason i'm under the impression nfs can only be read from one system at a time.

Bob

o.O

Journeyman Geek

oh, and I guess I know samba better ;p

Bob

that always helps

but if your goal is to learn something new... :P

@JourneymanGeek no? superuser.com/questions/33525/concurrent-nfs-access

Journeyman Geek

naw, I'm trying to free up a system that's running 24/7 for learning something new.

Bob

10:16

concurrent access to the same file might present issues

Journeyman Geek

which may happen.

Bob

but SMB does similar things with locking anyway, at least when implemented on a MS server

I suppose SMB might be more robust

not sure about the Samba implementation

Journeyman Geek

I know smb vaguely works here

Bob

...and the SF guys probably know more anyway :P

Journeyman Geek

I don't want to ask the sf guys ;p

Bob

10:18

shrug I've never really had to share data directly between *nix systems, oddly enough

well, in the shared-folder way

few times I did I used sshfs

Journeyman Geek

yup

Its a wierd setup. I could always work out why rutorrent won't pick up rtorrent on fedora.

I have some ideas ;p

Psycogeek

10:58

my SU profile says my real name is William Shatner :-) which all came about from Googles social net garbage that required that i put in my "real name"

what happens when Bill tries to sign on ? oh he'sa gonna be angry.

Hennes

11:43

To me the real name thingy was enough reason not to use google plus

Psycogeek

11:59

I really wanted to give it a chance. see just how much more google could control my life and hack all my info :-) See just how social Marketing people (all those in it to spam) would be my friends after rejecting thier products. There certannly had to be one round of getting laid out of all that ?

(from the tv program Defiance) The problem with this is , they do not look alien, If you go to SanFancisco i could find you 2-3 people who look just like this :-) On every street

Psycogeek

12:18

In star trek it did not mater that they looked alien, as long as they were 1/2 nakid :-)

Mokubai

12:40

@Psycogeek TIL that San Francisco is full of aliens.

Boris_yo

13:21

The massive security breaches and theft of credit card information at The Home Depot and Target have something in common. They were both allowed by a vulnerability in XP embedded that was more than 10 years old!

The XP embedded, used in their POS systems, (yes, both definitions apply) was Win XPe SP3, which is not the last version of the XP-based embedded OSes. This whole disaster could have been avoided if Target and Home Depot upgraded to Win7 for Embedded Systems. Internal IT security people knew about this and told their friends and relatives to pay cash at Home Depot. OUCH.

Bob

13:34

> What’s neat, though, is that once you snap an app, Windows 10 suggests another, similar app that you might want to snap next to it, from a small collection of windows. The feature is intended to save you the hassle of hunting about through menus to actually construct a virtual desktop.

O_O

@allquixotic but... most answers edit me(y brain)

Psycogeek

Russian hackers , have been breaking into POS systems using more simple methods using admin passwords . That were lame passwords. It isnt called a POS system for nothing :-)

Bob

lol

@Psycogeek always wondered about that. seems a bit too coincidental :P

most PoSes are also PoSes

Psycogeek

In Soviet Union they dont break into computers, Admins Hand them the master key.

HackToHell

►

Now I want to download that game apparently it's f2p

Annnd It's taxing on a 7970 at high

Wait I remember this game... @allquixotic didn't you get another GPU cause of that?

Bob

@HackToHell I thought he did that for Star Citizen.

HackToHell

13:44

@Bob Oh well

Bob

@HackToHell I think it's part of 3DMark

Oh wait wrong game

ROODAY

13:58

hey

has anyone used cygwin here?

barlop

@ROODAY yeah all the time

ROODAY

you know how typing cmd in address bar in explorer uses cmd? i tried following some post on superuser about it, adding R:/cygwin to path, but I wasn't able to run even Cygwin.bat anywhere

HackToHell

@ROODAY boo cygwin but yes I use it

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