Root Access

I am having difficulty grasping the difference between a terminal, a console and a shell. I understand that BASH is a type of shell that allows me to enter commands that is then executed by the kernel

Journeyman Geek

hmm

peanutsmonkey: you use windows right?

PeanutsMonkey

Yes I do together with Linux as I learn about it

Journeyman Geek

in generally never talk to the kernel directly

Sathya

I'll let @JourneymanGeek explain as I can't :p

PeanutsMonkey

6:39 AM

What do you mean @Journey

Sathya

also, look at

15

Q: What are the differences between shell , console & terminal?

Thats it! I'm confused with the terminology. What is the difference between shell , console & terminal?

PeanutsMonkey

I had a look at that but it still is confusing me

Journeyman Geek

so, lets say, you are in a graphical linux distro. xterm/konsole/whatever gnome uses is a console

but a console only supports a limited, unfriendly subset of commands

BASH adds some degree of scriptability to it, and some basic commands to it

PeanutsMonkey

Okay let me stop you there. What do you mean by whatever Gnome uses as a console?

Journeyman Geek

i can't remember what its called ;p

PeanutsMonkey

6:41 AM

What is a console?

Journeyman Geek

cmd.exe is a console ;)

you run command.com or something similar on that, that's your shell.

in the linux POV, the console is the 'display'. the shell is the environment you run on it

and if i'm wrong, and anyone realises, correct me ;p

PeanutsMonkey

Okay so if console is the display what is the terminal then?

Journeyman Geek

hmm

did i confuse myself? ;p

ahh

PeanutsMonkey

Hopefully not :-)

Journeyman Geek

in a modern context a terminal and a console are simplar

in a command line linux install, you have multiple virtual terminals (pressing ctrl f1 and so on). each has a console, and a shell on it

PeanutsMonkey

6:45 AM

Okay but it seems to be differentiated . For example I had a read of the post at superuser.com/questions/144666/…

Journeyman Geek

but its not something you really think of

traditionally a 'console' was a bit of hardware

PeanutsMonkey

There is a clear distinction between them.

Is a terminal a piece of hardware as well?

Journeyman Geek

well, not so clear in moden use.

traditionally, yes

PeanutsMonkey

Okay. So in terms of the type of hardware, how is a terminal different from a console?

Journeyman Geek

it was something like this en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VT100 . many modern software terminals emulate this specific bit of kit

PeanutsMonkey

6:47 AM

Yes. Someone told me that a VT100 is a type of terminal

Now to me it seems that it was a computer with a display and keyboard built-in

Journeyman Geek

the console is the link between the teminal and the system en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_console

no, not really

all this is before my time of course

but all a terminal did was take your input, push it to the computer, and recieve its output

PeanutsMonkey

Sorry. Think am confused more. Let me break it down from what you have just told me

Journeyman Geek

wiki again en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_console

ok.. think back to the old days

when computers cost more than your kidneys, and were in a big locked room

PeanutsMonkey

A terminal took my input from a keyboard is that right?

Journeyman Geek

the terminal is your keyboard and screen

PeanutsMonkey

6:50 AM

Right. So did the terminal process my inputs?

and then display the output on the screen?

Journeyman Geek

ok..

one moment

bit.ly/rlPlMp

PeanutsMonkey

Give me a sec to digest the info

Journeyman Geek

basically users used terminals to talk to software on the OS. A console would be linked directly to hardware and often could be used to talk to bios and other serious things

PeanutsMonkey

Okay. I'll break it down again so that i can understand it.

Journeyman Geek

(and note, i'm talking of things before my time, so there may be small mistakes)

PeanutsMonkey

6:57 AM

A user would sit in front of a terminal to pass commands to the mainframe which would then process my input from a keyboard

Is that right for a start?

Journeyman Geek

yes.

and a console is a specific sort of terminal

PeanutsMonkey

Okay now the mainframe would process my input and send back the results to the terminal display which is my output

Is that right?

Journeyman Geek

yes

PeanutsMonkey

Okay now you mention that a console would be linked to the hardware? What hardware are we speaking about?

Journeyman Geek

now, replace the display and keyboard with a virtual terminal, and mainframe with the system you're on..

serial ports

PeanutsMonkey

7:00 AM

Okay so the console is connected to the serial ports of the terminal?

Journeyman Geek

you can, for example connect two systems over serial ports and debug an OS at a lower level that you could normally do. or even talk directly to some bioses over serial

no

of the mainframe

PeanutsMonkey

Ah right

So I have a console connected to the mainframe. Now how would the terminal communicate with the console? Via the mainframe?

Journeyman Geek

you don't

PeanutsMonkey

I don't communicate with the console?

Journeyman Geek

the console is a terminal

PeanutsMonkey

7:01 AM

Okay it is a terminal for the mainframe?

Journeyman Geek

a 'plain old' terminal however is with all your shiny things like a shell

a console can be lower level, you can, for example, talk to a bootloader or a bios before your OS boots via a console

from wikipedia "The system console, root console or simply console is the text entry and display device for system administration messages, particularly those from the BIOS or boot loader, the kernel, from the init system and from the system logger. It is a physical device consisting of a keyboard and a screen."

PeanutsMonkey

Ah right. So the console allows me to communicate with the hardware or software at a lower level?

Journeyman Geek

yes!

PeanutsMonkey

Okay. Think am getting it

Journeyman Geek

what you see before your OS proper boots and you get your log in prompt is in effect a form of console

what you see after is the terminal

PeanutsMonkey

7:03 AM

So if I wanted to debug at a lower level I would have used a console

Journeyman Geek

yeah

PeanutsMonkey

The same concept applies if I want to debug Linux at a lower level

Journeyman Geek

reactos.org/wiki/GDB is an example

yesh. you can use gdb and a console of some sort for that

PeanutsMonkey

So if we step back a little so that I can put them all together before we jump into what we do with modern Unices

The terminal allowed me as a user to use the built-in keyboard and display to communicate with a mainframe

Journeyman Geek

er..

not quite built in

hmm

ok, lets switch contexts here

PeanutsMonkey

7:06 AM

Really? from the pictures I have seen they seem to be built-in

Journeyman Geek

old school terminal is replaced by your virtual terminals

its useless without being connected to a bigass minicomputer ;p

say something like this forum.stanford.edu/wiki/index.php/…

PeanutsMonkey

Think I need to understand the use of terminal as it was before understand what it is now. Please bear with my noobness

Journeyman Geek

of course, we've replaced that old thing with a modern system, which does so much more

hmm

ever seen a sunray machine?

or some other thin client?

PeanutsMonkey

No sorry

Journeyman Geek

hm.

PeanutsMonkey

7:07 AM

I have seen a thin client

that sends data across to a server to process

Journeyman Geek

a thin client is VERY similar to a old fashioned terminal

precisely!

PeanutsMonkey

Ah right. So it never did any processing and had the mainframe do everything

Journeyman Geek

so your old school terminal WAS a thin client!

yes!

PeanutsMonkey

Very cool. Heard a click in my head. Think it makes sense now

So the console was a piece of hardware that allowed me as a user to communicate with the mainframe at a lower level

Is that right?

Journeyman Geek

now, of course, modern systems are smart enough to walk AND chew gum. so instead of having a seperate bit of gear to do it, the emulated the terminal, so older software was still compatable, and you could run it

a console was a terminal, that was able to do lower level tasks

PeanutsMonkey

7:10 AM

Right but it would still send data across to the mainframe to process?

Journeyman Geek

its more a matter of, user privileges than some magic switch

well, yeah

but you could, for example, choose which drive to boot from, or shutdown the system

which a regular terminal can't

PeanutsMonkey

But for the mainframe or console?

Journeyman Geek

modern context!

PeanutsMonkey

Ah right

Journeyman Geek

say you have grub, and its set up correctly, you can pick what OS to boot from another computer connected to a terminal emulator with support for serial port

so your system is the mainframe, and the other computer is the 'console'

but say if you telnetted or SSHed into a box that's booted up, the client system is a 'terminal', running a 'shell' on the other box

PeanutsMonkey

7:12 AM

So the console have me privileges of what I wanted to run on the mainframe?

Journeyman Geek

traditionally

you wouldn't want your regular users 'accidentally' shutting down the box, would you? ;p

PeanutsMonkey

Okay so if I pick that up and drop it into what we have now how do we know what is a terminal and a console?

or are they the one and same thing?

Journeyman Geek

hmm

consoles are subsets of terminals.

if you need an OS to be able to do things , its definately a terminal.

PeanutsMonkey

Okay so how would I tell if I am running a terminal or a console?

Journeyman Geek

if you can connect pre-boot process completion...

well, if you got bash etc.. its a terminal

PeanutsMonkey

7:14 AM

Okay

Journeyman Geek

if you're messing with the bios, or bootloader, remotely, its a console

but as i said, with modern systems, the line is blurred a lot

PeanutsMonkey

So when you say messing with the bios is that on the system I am running now or on a remote system?

Journeyman Geek

on a remote system

i have no idea what you would call it messing with a local bious

PeanutsMonkey

Right. So if I SSH into a remote server and I am presented with a screen running bash, is that still a terminal or console?

Journeyman Geek

and in most cases, you don't need a traditional console

definately a terminal

nearly anything you do on a modern context is on a terminal

PeanutsMonkey

7:17 AM

Okay so if I run CTRL-ALT-F1 is that a console or terminal?

Journeyman Geek

you switched virtual terminals

so, terminals

i can't think of ANY regular user situation where you'd use a console

PeanutsMonkey

Okay. So what is tty and pts when I run the ps command?

Journeyman Geek

tty = teletype

PeanutsMonkey

Okay so is that the terminal I am running?

Journeyman Geek

pts is psudo terminal slave

hm

teletypes haven't been actually used in years ;p

PeanutsMonkey

7:20 AM

I know that :-) but what do they mean when I look at ps?

Journeyman Geek

and in this case..

Tty (Unix)

tty is a Unix command that prints to standard output the name of the terminal connected to standard input. The name of the program comes from teletypewriter, abbreviated "TTY". When the program runs, it will output something like this: $ tty /dev/pts/4 The abbreviation "pts" within the output of the tty command indicates that it is a pseudo terminal, where the terminal's output is being shown by a process on the computer system and not a separate hardware computer terminal. A specific identifying number enumerates the numbers of such processes on that computer system. If the program ...

PeanutsMonkey

is pts the virtual terminal?

Journeyman Geek

i'm not sure enough to asnwer myself

PeanutsMonkey

Ah right. I think I understand. tty is the terminal I am logged into running the bash shell

Journeyman Geek

pts is attached to a process, often a terminal emulator

PeanutsMonkey

7:21 AM

and pts is the virtual terminal I am logged into running the bash shell

Journeyman Geek

yes

kinda

PeanutsMonkey

or when as you said running the terminal emulator such as XTERM

Journeyman Geek

but in this case, xterm is attached to pts...

PeanutsMonkey

Yes

Journeyman Geek

but at this point, i haven't thought THAT deep about it XD

PeanutsMonkey

7:22 AM

Great. Feel better understanding it now

All falling into place now

Thanks for all your help

Appreciate your patience

Ivo Flipse

8:51 AM

@Sathya you around?

Sathya

yeah

Ivo Flipse

what's the windows shortcut to switch between monitor inputs

Sathya

what's up?

Ivo Flipse

I know on a laptop its normally a FN combo

Sathya

win-P?

Ivo Flipse

8:53 AM

@Sathya He hadn't even connected a keyboard, d'oh

He's going to call back asap when he has it connected and all

let's pray its not wireless and lacking drivers...

Sathya

ouch

Ivo Flipse

yeah he doesn't even own a monitor anywhere in the house

that'll teach em :P

#366221907Virginia Beach, VA Verizon Internet 1 17 hours ago 34.46 Mb/s 16.83 Mb/s 17 ms

holy crap, who is that

Sathya

heh

Ivo Flipse

mine was: #366490490Barendrecht, NLLOGIN Online Breedband 1 9 mins ago 7.84 Mb/s 0.87 Mb/s 20 ms

Sathya

that was. @Jacob

Ivo Flipse

8:55 AM

sweet, 34 Mb is just crazy

Sathya

17 hours ago, by Jacob

No offense guys: your internets are teh badz :)

yeah :(

this is yours? 7.84 Mb/s 0.87 Mb/s 20 ms

Ivo Flipse

yeah

not bad either

he has Fios?

Sathya

must be.

for some reason never asked about it ;/

Ivo Flipse

@Sathya well it doesn't matter if you can't use it yourself

besides I don't know what I'd need that kind of connection for (yet)

Sathya

true

Ivo Flipse

8:58 AM

if only because I don't have Netflix

and having an imba connection doesn't mean the site will be able to stream to you at that rate

Sathya

well same here no netflix hulu et al

Ivo Flipse

@Sathya or pandora...

Sathya

meh, screw that shit. it'll never come here

Ivo Flipse

hmm Win+P doesn't seem to work :\

I hate troubleshooting on the phone

with a non-connected computer

Sathya

damn, it should work

win-p switches between modes

Ivo Flipse

9:05 AM

well it might be his keyboard not working out of the box

he only has wifi, so it can't automagically download drivers

(since he can't login that is)

hmm

morning all

Morning

hija

gametrailers.com/video/sdcc-11-mortal-kombat/717827

Sathya

ooh

slhck

9:17 AM

morning people

Sathya

I'm off to take a nap, laters!

Journeyman Geek

12:31 PM

hm

superuser.com/questions/207770/… both the other answers here.. seem totally unrelated to the problem in the questions

Jacob

1:46 PM

@IvoFlipse Yes I do

It's 35/35 but Speedtest doesn't like to test upload.

Simon Sheehan

2:20 PM

Morning everyone.

David

3:03 PM

Shouldn't this type of question be closed?

-1

Q: why was "bandwidth" chosen to describe a rate?

It just doesn't seem to make sense to use the term "width" to describe a rate, but maybe that isn't even right. The common thing you hear now is that you may be limited to a total amount of data downloaded which isn't a rate at all, volume is a better way to describe what is being called bandwid...

download limit

Simon Sheehan

@David flags are so useful ;)

I liked the old flag page where it stated a reason. Like "post removed, migrated" instead of just "valid"

David

Yeah, but I was just wanting opinions @SimonSheehan

:)

Simon Sheehan

3:20 PM

@David well in my opinion it's not to do with hardware or software, more like terminology that could have been asked here in chat. So I flagged it

slhck

@SimonSheehan terminology questions are fine, I suppose, but this one just shows lack of research effort

hi btw :P

Simon Sheehan

Hey @slhck. I agree on that part also :P

Can't wait until I can vote to close things >.<

Would make this just so much easier

slhck

Yeah, but you're on the way! :P

Simon Sheehan

Slowly but surely ;)

slhck

You know what I don't really like that much? People who upvote poor questions...

Simon Sheehan

3:31 PM

Sometimes I wonder why they do they - do they really think that's a good question? Or are they trying to get something? It makes me wonder

slhck

like that one

0

Q: Windows does not start after changing settings in msconfig.exe

I changed some settings in msconfig.exe on my computer. Then I booted and advanced. Then I changed my cores from 1 to 4. I'm almost positve that my computer is only 1 core and is an Intel i3. Now Windows won't start and I can't use System Restore.

windows-7 windows hard-drive intel

Sathya

@slhck you know what really riles me? Easy questions getting bucketloads of upvotes :\

Simon Sheehan

My favourite thing was closing my own question once xD

slhck

@Sathya Yeah, you mean those that would be answered by a one minute search, but get tons of votes because of the "Hey, I asked myself that too once!" effect?

Sathya

yeah :\

Simon Sheehan

3:33 PM

@Sathya it's a bit bothersome, but with anonymous voting... What can you do :/

4

Q: Why are so few applications 64-bit?

Possible Duplicate: 32-bit vs. 64-bit systems I've come to realize nearly every application I use is for 32-bit processors. Why are most programs still like this, considering almost all PC's on the market now seem to be 64-bit. Is there any real advantage to using 64-bit programs?

64-bit cpu applications

@slhck just noticed your comment on it a few days ago :P

slhck

haha

so while others have heat waves, we have 12° in July (as opposed to 30) :/

Simon Sheehan

Our heat wave seems to be down - only 23c today, no humidity this morning.

slhck

Still, I think this world is going to end with people freezing to death in the Sahara and dying from heat in Iceland.

Or people dying while waiting for Windows updates to configure.

Simon Sheehan

Haha. I haven't updated in 2 years... Very bad D:

slhck

Just got SP1 for Windows 7

Simon Sheehan

3:40 PM

Any differences? Or just security stuff?

Going for a run now, before it's hot. be back soon!

slhck

Have fun!

I think it's just security stuff, but I haven't been able to find out, as my PC now is restarting for the third time in a row

Andy Lee Robinson

Simon, you deleted my post about rm!

I posted the effect of chmod -R from / because it is also a recursive and costly mistake, and that resetting setuid on /bin/su is not obvious

slhck

@AndyLeeRobinson Which question are you talking about?

Simon can't really delete posts, only a moderator can

Andy Lee Robinson

superuser.com/questions/312769/…

sorry, was Sathya

slhck

/cc @Sathya

Oh, that's a nice pick-up line I just learned: "Sorry, are you a server? Because you have a really nice rack!"

Andy Lee Robinson

3:56 PM

@slhck I'm not too far from you.. yes, weather is horrible and unusual at the moment

slhck

@AndyLeeRobinson oh, where are you? I mean, must be like that all over Europe I guess

Andy Lee Robinson

Budapest

but still better than the 38°C we had last week!

slhck

I heard that, yeah!

some acquaintances visited Budapest that week and they said it was horrible

Andy Lee Robinson

I spent May in Florida, and that was cool in comparison.. I've lived here 12 years and have seen the weather get noticeably weirder

Sathya

@AndyLeeRobinson was flagged as not an answer

slhck

4:09 PM

@Sathya Can you merge these two users again and close the post?

0

Q: I screwed up my cores.

I changed the amount of cores running on my comupter. I have an intel i3 and im 95% sure it only has one core. I have windows 7 and searched msconfig.exe and ran it. Then I clicked the boot tab and then clicked advanced options. And finally changed the amount of cores running from 1 to 4. I neede...

windows-7 hard-drive

Thanks :)

Sathya

done, can't figure why people flip things they don't understand

Simon Sheehan

It's Human nature, we like messing things up ;)

Andy Lee Robinson

@Sathya but that post was still relevant and very useful tip about su that may save someone a day of headaches!

Simon Sheehan

@Andy it wasn't an answer to it, more a comment. Perhaps you should repost as a comment

slhck

@Sathya If it weren't for those people we wouldn't have so many questions :P

Sathya

4:14 PM

@slhck lol. @Andy what @Simon says

(heh)

Andy Lee Robinson

I've only just joined. couldn't find a comment option, only post answer!

slhck

Right, you need 50 rep to do that

Andy Lee Robinson

ok, have a little more work to do then...

Simon Sheehan

@slhck ultimate geek pickup line, by the way :p

slhck

@AndyLeeRobinson But not that much :)

@SimonSheehan The best thing about it: my girlfriend told me :D

Andy Lee Robinson

4:19 PM

@slhck, no, shouldn't take long... just find something easy to answer...

I love nice racks too... :)

Simon Sheehan

@slhck that's awesome then xD. Wish the girl I liked had any clue how computers worked ;)

slhck

@Sathya He doesn't get it.

Sathya

@AndyLeeRobinson that shouldn't be a problem

slhck

@SimonSheehan The only thing that sucks is that you can't just fire up a full screen terminal pretending to be busy because she knows what a ls -la or find / does :P

Simon Sheehan

@slhck Sounds like a smart person :P No sneaking around her

Andy Lee Robinson

4:22 PM

I always got "I'm not coming second place to a bloody machine"

ok.. then bye bye... :-)

slhck

lol

Andy Lee Robinson

that was 30 years ago when I was playing with my BBC Micro... some things don't change...

slhck

guys and their geek stuff

Simon Sheehan

@slhck but being a geek is the best!

Except in school

Andy Lee Robinson

true... went through hell at school

of course, wiring up the classroom and electrocuting everyone with a generator didn't make too many friends..

Simon Sheehan

4:26 PM

Its horrible because I took an entire tech class for photoshop and video and stuff, and I was the only one with knowledge and a memory stick

slhck

lol

we weren't even allowed to have electronic devices in school

Simon Sheehan

So I'd finish projects a week early then spend the other 4 days with clueless kids

slhck

so when I first brought my laptop it was like I brought a creature from Mars with me

@SimonSheehan Sounds familiar :D

Simon Sheehan

@slhck No one knew how to use a Mac either D:

slhck

In my final exams I spent 45 minutes playing minesweeper on the PC I was given to do the tests on

Simon Sheehan

4:28 PM

My final exam was a photoshop assignment that took every the full 75 minutes. I spent 5 minutes, got a 98% on it, and watched a movie

slhck

Nice :D I had to do something in Photoshop as well

And my second question was "about Linux"

So my teacher brought a USB drive with Ubuntu on it

But she failed to install it properly, so the drive wouldn't boot up

But the computer spent 4 of my 5 minutes answering time just checking the drive for errors

Too bad :P

Andy Lee Robinson

@slhck well, we didn't have any electronic devices at school, maybe brick sized calculators or abacuses

Simon Sheehan

@slhck one of my assignments was to complete an audio editing room for Mac and Linux only xD. Was great! Also brb

Andy Lee Robinson

@SimonSheehan nice one!

slhck

l8r!

Sathya

4:32 PM

woohoo, rains!

Andy Lee Robinson

one problem with getting an education, is that everyone else then becomes relatively more stupid. Makes me sad to read the comments on youtube

Sathya

obligatory xkcds

slhck

@AndyLeeRobinson I guess if there's hell, you'll have to read every single YouTube comment for eternity

2

haha thanks for those @Sathya

Andy Lee Robinson

hehe! Thanks @Sathya! It would be funny if it wasn't so true... :( I could weep!

slhck

@Sathya Don't you have rain season anyway?

Sathya

4:38 PM

at my hometown, yes, not where in the city where I'm working @slhck

slhck

Ah I see

Sathya

ran and got myself a pack of cigarettes before it started raining heavily.

now, back to Star Trek The Next Generation.

slhck

haha, have fun

Simon Sheehan

Haha.

Well at least in the end I had a nice teacher who opted to give me alternative assignments

Linker3000

6:03 PM

0

Q: Which ghost software programmer use to backup their system?

I decided that I'll use ghost software to make a backup of the system software I have. Someone talking about that here: How to repair Visual Studio 2010 after broken installation of Async CTP Are there any comparable backup software like ghost that is free and I can use without any hassle?