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2:28 AM
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Q: Acceptable comments policy for Christianity Stack Exchange

curiousdanniiAt times comments on this site have been misused by a small number of community members, which can be very off-putting for other members of this site, and especially for new members who may feel unwelcome. The mods frequently clean up comments (far more than we would like to!), but it may not be ...

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The mods have been working on this policy since December, so FYI it's not a response to anything more recent. :)
 
 
3 hours later…
5:22 AM
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Q: How is it possible that Christians can go to heaven when they believe that Jesus is God

ReidThe Quran states: "Those who believe, and those who are Jewish, and the Christians, and the Sabeans—any who believe in God and the Last Day, and act righteously—will have their reward with their Lord; they have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve." This would imply that believing Jesus is God i...

 
5:51 AM
@Matthew If an answer is controversial, then there are three basic possibilities: 1. The question was primarily opinion-based, meaning it should be closed. 2. The answer was badly written, meaning it should be downvoted or deleted. 3. The reader is unable to maintain objectivity and see that this is an objective answer to a fact-based question.
On C.SE, doctrinal disagreement is irrelevant. If the question is, "What did Calvin teach about X?" then the answer is to say what Calvin taught about that thing. If Calvin was so confused on that issue that he didn't give a clear answer, then saying that is an objective answer. If he just didn't care about that question and never wrote anything about it, then saying that is an objective answer.
But presumably, on any important doctrinal issue related to Calvinism, Calvin did say something definite about it.
People can argue about whether Calvin was right or wrong. But that's not what the question is asking. And if a question did ask that, then it should be closed as primarily opinion-based.
@Matthew Perhaps a quick-and-easy way to move to chat would help. But once again, that's really not what this site is about, and therefore not a high priority for the site's owners.
Also, a lot of commenters are hit-and-run. They're not interested in discussing it. Just in asserting their own opinion, and saying that people who disagree with them are stupid. These comments should simply be flagged for deletion.
@OnlyTrueGod There may be pockets where conservatism is the primary reason for large families, and liberalism leads to small families. But once again, the larger trend is that rich and well-educated people tend to have few children, whereas poor and less educated people tend to have more children. And there is some correlation between religious conservatism and being poor and less educated.
I'm not saying there are no well-educated religious conservatives. Obviously there are. But in general, fundamentalist sects of any religion tend to flourish among the poor and less-educated, whereas liberal sects tend to do better among middle-class and better educated segments of the population.
As the world's population becomes richer and better educated, the sort of religious conservatism that goes along with having big families will tend to decline overall.
Original sin is a terrible doctrine. Total depravity is even worse. And double predestination is the most blasphemous thing I've ever heard.
@OnlyTrueGod Not really. Good editors understand that their job is not to express their own views, but to help authors express their views as clearly and cogently as possible. To write a good comment on a question or answer on StackExchange, it's necessary to grasp what the OP wants to say, and then make suggestions for how the OP can say that better.
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I was Editor of a monthly devotional magazine for my church for a decade back in the 1990s and 2000s. The previous Editor liked to tell a story about how he sweated over a particular minister's sermon to get it into good, readable shape for publication. Once it was published, the author of the sermon said to the Editor, "Hmm. I'm a better writer than I thought I was!" ;-)
Similarly, when I was editor, one of our ministers jokingly asked me if I could edit all her sermons before she preached them.
These are Editor success stories. If, upon finishing an editing job, the author says, "Yes! That's exactly what I wanted to say!" then the Editor has done a good job.
Comments on Qs or As here on C.SE that help the OP to better express what s/he wanted to ask, or say, or to provide better support for what s/he wanted to say, are good comments. Comments that say, "I think your doctrinal position is wrong, and you should have answered this different way instead" are bad comments.
Of course, if an answer is factually incorrect, pointing that out is a proper use of the comments. However, that's also what downvoting is for, and downvoting such an answer is probably the better action.
As an example of "factually incorrect," my son was playing around with ChatGPT, and knowing his ol' man's penchant for Swedenborg, asked it to summarize Swedenborg's teachings in ten brief points. Some of them were right enough, though generally somewhat vague. And some of them were at least partially incorrect.
For example, it says that according to Swedenborg, "Jesus is the divine Son of God and the savior of humanity."
 
6:24 AM
@LeeWoofenden Chat comments like that are not acceptable either. You may disagree with Trinitarians, but it's not okay to say that none of them are analysing it rationally. "Repugnant" to anyone who grasps its "real meaning" is not okay either.
@LeeWoofenden Comments like these are just on the side of acceptability.
@LeeWoofenden I hope you can see that your own comments have just been doing exactly that.
Honestly I'm a little perplexed. You're providing such excellent explanations of how to civilly discuss things on the site, and then breaking your own principles here in chat.
 
 
1 hour later…
7:34 AM
The "savior" part is correct. But "Jesus is the divine Son of God" is not quite correct. According to Swedenborg, this was true in a sense during Jesus' lifetime on earth, but the risen and glorified Jesus Christ is, simply, God, in whom is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. So Jesus is not "the divine Son of God." Jesus is God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
@curiousdannii That's about comments on questions and answers, which are for a specific purpose, and not to be confused with discussion in general or specific-purpose chatrooms.
@curiousdannii You're misquoting me. But now that you've deleted the comment, no one else can see that.
@curiousdannii As Obama was fond of saying, the remedy for problematic speech is not censorship, but more speech. You yourself have called me lots of bad names, and impugned my beliefs, right here in this chat. I didn't get all offended. That's part of the rough-and-tumble of discussion about issues we care about.
@DoesElishaspeak? @curiousdannii It should be made clear that this is about comments on the main Q&A site. That's what all of those policy points are applicable to. They're largely irrelevant to comments in chatrooms.
@curiousdannii No. I'm not a hit-and-run commenter. I stick around, or come back, and continue the conversation. If people disagree with me, they're welcome to say so. People attack me and insult me for my beliefs all the time. Mostly I just ignore the charged language, and focus on the substance. Even on my own blog, I generally delete comments only if there's nothing but personal attacks, without any discussable substance at all.
It may annoy you that Swedenborgians believe that trinitarianism is just another form of polytheism, and an irrational one at that. But that's what we believe. It may annoy you that Swedenborgians believe that satisfaction theory and penal substitution are blasphemies on the good name of God. But that's what we believe.
It may annoy you that we believe Luther's doctrine of justification by faith alone and Calvin's doctrines of total depravity and double predestination are horrendously false and unbiblical doctrines. But that's what we believe.
And I get tired of having to preface everything with, "This is what I believe. You may believe differently." If I say something, obviously it's what I believe. Anyone reading it is free to agree or disagree, and to express their disagreement in equally strong terms. That's the only way we can have an honest discussion rather than pussyfooting around people's delicate feelings.
Ugh. I really get tired of all the snowflakes these days.
 
 
2 hours later…
9:56 AM
@LeeWoofenden The Code of Conduct applies to everything including chat, and some of your messages here have not been acceptable
@LeeWoofenden Just like you, I've deleted your insulting comments
 
 
2 hours later…
11:45 AM
Still not on Math.SE? @GratefulDisciple
 
12:03 PM
@LeeWoofenden Not misquoting. "The doctrine of the Trinity of Persons is utterly irrational to any objective person (i.e., a non-adherent to that doctrine) who analyzes it rationally. The satisfaction theory of atonement is repugnant to anyone who analyzes and grasps its real meaning."
 
@ペガサスSeiya Guilty as charged :-) Has been busy with family stuff lately.... How about you, did you have all your Christianity related questions answered? I have been listening to Thomistic Institute lectures, for which I created a personal index here. If you want to process the Christian doctrine of God logically and rationally, it's hard to be better than that while being consistent with Scriptures.
If you're interested in the compatibility between science & faith, Thomistic Institute Aquinas 101 online course is a good one. I haven't watched it personally, but having viewed about 25% of their other course An Introduction To the Summa I like their approach and "user-friendly-ness".
 
12:29 PM
@GratefulDisciple I've come across a paradoxical situation that negates the entire debate I had so far. The paradox is due to what Lee stated about God being human. IF he's a human, then this entire debate makes no sense. But then, he cannot be God if he's human, and if he isn't "God" in the traditional sense of the word then, that means the mystery still hasn't been resolved. This means that this human isn't the God that we're after, that is, the creator of the universe
 
@ペガサスSeiya Well, as a Trinitarian I don't have a paradox. I'm very happy with the Chalcedonian Trinitarian solution. God, by definition, is the being that "nothing greater could be conceived" (Ontological argument).
God created human nature and we human beings participate in God's sustaining our beings; now in a wounded state but we can choose to be healed by increasing our participation in God's gift of grace so we can one day become perfect human being like Jesus, the exemplar in the Incarnation where God (the author of human nature) enters time and space to show us.
 
@curiousdannii I didn't say "none of them [Trinitarians] are analysing it rationally." I said it is irrational to any objective, i.e., non-adherent-to-that-doctrine, person. The two are not the same. To adherents, it may seem perfectly rational. But the statement was in the context of people abandoning the traditional Christian churches and becoming atheists, agnostics, or perhaps "spiritual but not religious."
 
@GratefulDisciple to an outsider like me the only other way this makes sense is if the "human" is kind if like a "lesser" God and there is a God that transcends him, kind of like tiers of Gods in Dragon Ball and Saint Seiya where Gods Of Destruction are above Kaiōshins and Olympian Gods are above Minor Gods
 
@ペガサスSeiya You're on the right track. And Trinitarian conception of God and of human nature gives you the framework to make sense of that. Although we use a more precise term than "lesser" because God is a separate class of being than human nature. Your gods in anime is more akin to members of the Divine Council that I mentioned earlier.
Just for continuing discussion in this room, here are my earlier messages from the Anime chat room:
in Maid Café (メイド喫茶), Jan 31 at 16:11, by GratefulDisciple
@ペガサスSeiya Sorry for the late answer, but in the Christian scheme, the One God by definition is Being itself and all created beings "participate" in small or great degree: inanimate is the lowest, plants are next, animals are higher, humans are even higher, angels are "on par" with humans (greater intellect but don't have bodies), and Q would probably be archangels or (if we read Ps 82 literally) a member of the Divine Council, akin to the Q Continuum, making Q one member.
in Maid Café (メイド喫茶), Jan 31 at 16:14, by GratefulDisciple
In Christianity, this God is very much interested in preserving the laws of nature, so probably this One God wouldn't give ability to a member of the Divine Council to do what Q does in Star Trek in the first place, and that's why we don't see the kind of disruptions we watch in Star Trek. This God is also not a "show off" so can be frustrating to someone like you who would like to see better demonstration of His power so you can believe in Him.
in Maid Café (メイド喫茶), Jan 31 at 16:20, by GratefulDisciple
If anyone is interested in Divine Council, I highly recommend this lecture by Dr. Michael Heiser, a Biblical scholar who re-popularizes this ancient understanding (originated older than 1000 BC but forgotten until recently) so we can understand better some of the background ideas in the Bible. Jump to around minute 18:00 about the purpose of humans on earth and how some council members messed up the original plan requiring God to save us.
 
@ペガサスSeiya The issue seems to be in thinking of "human" as a limiting quality, rather than as an expansive one. If "human" and "infinite" are contradictory in your mind, then of course you'll have trouble thinking of God as human. But when I say that God is human, I mean human in an infinite degree, which distinguishes God from what you think of as "human," i.e., a limited being.
In other words, God is not "merely" human, but infinitely human.
We can say that a candle is a light, and a lamp is a light. Does that mean the sun is not a light? No. It means that the sun is an almost immeasurably larger and more powerful light. So it is in comparing our humanity with God's humanity, except God is infinitely more human than we are.
 
12:44 PM
@ペガサスSeiya To a Trinitarian, simply saying God is "infinitely human" is not precise enough, and as you observed, lead into a paradox. Mainstream Christianity has consistently maintained the Trinitarian understanding for the "Godhead" (this ONE being, understood within His immanent relations) and use the concept of participation in degrees to explain the different classes of created beings: angels, humans, animals, plants, etc.
 
@LeeWoofenden The Sun is an entirely different thing, however. Lamps and candles produce light in a way far different to that of a sun. The sun also does more than just produce light. You've actually contradicted yourself with that analogy
 
@ペガサスSeiya No. Even though the sun produces light in a different way—i.e., by nuclear fusion instead of by chemical reaction—it still produces light, just as a candle or a lamp produces light.
If we power a vehicle with an internal combustion engine instead of a steam engine, it still produces motion, and it's still a self-propelled vehicle.
We don't use a different term for electric cars than we do for internal combustion engine cars. They're both cars.
 
@GratefulDisciple even if we say that God is just a human with infinite power as Lee's conclusion seems to indicate, then, a human with infinite power, is no longer human. Even if its pedantic and even if we say that we are just arguing semantics at this point, I think calling him human by this point is just contradictory
@LeeWoofenden it also produces such high gravity that it has its own solar system. Its also, you know, hilariously larger and produces more than just normal heat and light
 
@ペガサスSeiya This, once again, seems to be because you think of "human" as an inherently finite thing. I do not think that is the case. The key distinguishing features of humans are our particular abilities to love and to understand in a human way. We do these things in a limited way. God does them in an unlimited way.
 
AND, we do not even class candles and lamp in the same category as the sun so this analogy is moot in my opinion @LeeWoofenden
 
12:50 PM
@ペガサスSeiya When there is no sun, and no lamps, we light a candle. At least, in our household we do. The sun is the best light source. Lamps are good in the absence of the sun. But when the power goes out, a candle will at least provide enough light to get around by. They're all in the same class: light-givers.
 
@LeeWoofenden Okay, then, how does an infinite human create the universe?
 
@ペガサスSeiya From infinite divine-human love, through infinite divine-human wisdom, employing infinite divine-human power.
 
And, what about the time when the earth didn't even exist? Where did this 'human' exist then?
 
@ペガサスSeiya So using the language of participation as well as the doctrine of the hierarchy of beings, Christians can easily fit any of your anime "gods", even unicorns, dragons, nymphs, etc. into a coherent scheme. It just merely need to be determined whether any of them is REAL. But conceptually they can potentially exist, and it's up to this ONE God (with all the omnis and who is outside time and space) whether to create and endow any one of this being with some of His powers and matter.
 
@ペガサスSeiya God is non-material. God is not made of physical matter, but of divine substance, which is an entirely different order of substance than physical matter, just as spiritual substance is an entirely different order of substance than physical matter.
The whole conception requires expanding one's mind beyond a unitary universe made only of physical matter.
 
12:53 PM
@GratefulDisciple yeah its fun to imagine Christian God employing the God Of Destruction Beerus to do the dirty work in the universe and destroy useless planets and whatnot
 
@ペガサスSeiya John 1:1–3 says:
> In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being.
 
@LeeWoofenden "which is an entirely different order of substance than physical matter" Then he cannot be human, finite or infinite. You're contradicting yourself here
 
@LeeWoofenden That's not a difference that matters. Still incredibly insulting.
 
@ペガサスSeiya Yup. It's all theoretically possible. You may be impressed with Father Time that CS Lewis created in the Chronicles of Narnia. The scene in The Last Battle where the whole Narnia is destroyed is quite awesome.
 
If he's made of stuff that we can't even conceive then he can't even be in the same class as us
 
12:54 PM
In this passage, from a Swedenborgian perspective, "God" represents the divine love, and "the Word" (Greek logos) represents the divine wisdom.
Another way of saying this is that love is the substance/underlying force of God, wisdom is the form of God, and power is the proceeding force/power of God getting things done.
We know from Einstein's E=MC*2 that matter and energy are interchangeable. It is the same with divine love, which is both the substance and the energy of God.
 
@GratefulDisciple hopefully someone keeps him in check, Beerus has a temper
 
@ペガサスSeiya Responding to Lee's comment here divine love is this Godhead's attribute, and human beings who are saved participate in small or greater degree in love by God's infusion of grace, manifested in us as increasing virtue (capacity) of love.
 
@ペガサスSeiya No. Once again, the issue is your defining "human" as "limited." If you take away that part of your definition of "human," all the contradictions you now see will disappear.
 
Anything 'divine' simply can't be human. You need an entirely different framework to prove this
 
@ペガサスSeiya I'm attempting to provide you with the framework.
Understanding these things does require moving mentally beyond a materialistic understanding of the universe.
 
12:58 PM
@LeeWoofenden so at what point, does God's "humanity" diverges so far from us that he becomes God, despite being human? Where does that point lie? Are you aware of the "grains of sand" paradox?
 
@ペガサスSeiya Since (mainstream) Christians believe that God has to sustain any being for its very existence in the first place, we have only God to fear. We trust that God wouldn't unleash demons on those who are loving since God has very clearly and loudly proclaim THAT to be the prime imperative for human beings to live.
 
@ペガサスSeiya Once again, there is not, from a Swedenborgian perspective, any conflict or contrariety between being divine and being human. We are human without being divine. But God is both divine and human at the same time.
@ペガサスSeiya As far as the grains of sand paradox, you can't take any grains away from God, because God is fully one and integral, as well as being infinite. It is not possible to divide God.
 
@LeeWoofenden What is this divinity that you speak of, that makes him so different from us yet you claim he still exists in the same class as us?
 
We can distinguish mentally different parts or aspects of God. But in reality, they cannot be separated from one another, or separated from God.
 
@LeeWoofenden right, but you can add more grains to an already existing pile. In that case, at what point can I become God?
 
1:02 PM
@ペガサスSeiya Something can exist in multiple classes at once. The sun is in the class of "a light-producing object." It shares that class with candles and lamps. It is also in the class of "objects that engage in nuclear fusion." This is a class that candles and lamps are not part of. God shares the class of "human" with us created humans. But God also is in the class of "infinite beings," which we humans are not members of.
 
@ペガサスSeiya The doctrine of the resurrection of the body is another example of how God sustains a human. Instead of the modern "soul is trapped in body", Christians instead say "soul" can exist independently but animates the body, so body is properly IN the soul rather than the other way around. When we die, the soul persists in an unnatural state, but can still commune with God, and in fact, if we are righteous, we are given the "light of glory" so we can "see" God with our soul's eye.
 
@ペガサスSeiya There is no amount of addition of grains to a created human being that can make that human God. For one thing, even if we were to continue adding one grain per second forever, there would never be infinite grains of sand. If you can add another grain, it is not infinite.
 
@LeeWoofenden however, the sun is not defined by its class of "a light producing object" its defined by the class "a massive ball of superheated plasma that governs the entire solar system". Why wouldn't the same apply to God? See? You're contradicting yourself with this analogy
 
God, the creator and sustainer of both our soul and body, can then very easily gives a new glorified body to this righteous soul, that can enjoy bodily existence better than ever before, because the soul by now has "the light of glory".
 
Beyond that, humans are made of spiritual substance and, during our physical lifetime, out of physical matter. God is made of divine substance. No amount of adding more spiritual or physical substance to a human being can push it over the line to being divine substance.
 
1:05 PM
Sure, if I can do something, God probably could too. That means we technically share a class, but that doesn't mean that God and I are the same
 
Bodily existence in the new creation then is STILL NOT God. We don't become God, but we get an upgrade and will be able to do some things that Goku / Saint Seiya can.
 
@LeeWoofenden given an infinite amount of time, its possible
 
@ペガサスSeiya You and God are not the same, because God has characteristics that you do not, such as infinity of love, wisdom, power, knowledge, goodness, and so on. God is in the class of "infinite beings." You are in the class of "finite beings." A finite being cannot be converted into an infinite being.
@ペガサスSeiya No. Because if time stretches to infinity, there will always be more of it no matter what point in time you are currently at. I.e., you will never reach the end of it when you will have added the last grain of sand.
 
@ペガサスSeiya Gotta go and wake up the family. Plan to do some hiking. Nice chatting with you. Hope your debate with Lee goes well and not result in any of you got suspended :-).
 
@GratefulDisciple Hey, I've joined the class of "people who have been temporarily suspended." So we are in that class together now. ;-)
@GratefulDisciple Hope your hike is enjoyable.
@GratefulDisciple (Oops, I think that first comment was directed at the wrong person. Hard to keep track these days. I'm getting old.)
(Old enough to care a lot less about what I say, and how I say it, and whether it will offend people who have sensitive dispositions.)
@ペガサスSeiya "A light-producing object" is part of the definition of the sun, but not all of the definition of the sun. In the same way, "a human being" is part of the definition of God, but not all of the definition of God.
Technically, God cannot be "defined," because "defining" something means "drawing boundaries around it," and God has no boundaries—which is what being "infinite" means. In a sense, being "infinite" means being non-definable.
But that's a technical sense. Because God does have qualities that can be apprehended, meaning that God is not an undifferentiated being, as in, a massive ball of divine plasma without order or structure. God is an infinite being, but that infinity is an ordered infinity that has specific characteristics.
And the ordering of that infinity is a human ordering, meaning it is characterized by the human qualities of love, wisdom, and power/action.
@ペガサスSeiya Anyway, it's nice to see you here under your new guise. I was concerned that you had fled the platform.
 
 
3 hours later…
4:42 PM
@LeeWoofenden Heh. Yeah, I've noticed a tendency of certain people to use complaints of "offensive conduct" to avoid actual discussion.
@ペガサスSeiya, want to try to convince me ID isn't the only viable explanation of life?
 
 
5 hours later…
9:38 PM
@Matthew you're asking me to prove a negative. That's not how it works. You're claiming that ID is a valid explanation of life, you need to prove your positive claim
 
 
2 hours later…
11:24 PM
@LeeWoofenden Except that's not what we're seeing. Episcopalianism is declining much more rapidly than Evangelical Christianity in, say, the US. Within countries, it is the pro-natalist denominations that are thriving.
@LeeWoofenden Sure, but if the answerer simply ignores important things that are relevant, addressing that will improve the answer. Future readers should know this is a lacuna in the answer.
 

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